Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Monkeyleg on July 07, 2011, 11:51:59 PM
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Over the 4th of July weekend in Milwaukee, there were several instances of mobs of 20 or more "youths" swarming convenience stores and making off with goodies, and attacking, beating and injuring innocent people on the streets.
The first response from the Milwaukee Police Department was to deny that there were any "mobs". When it was clear that there were, Flynn, the police chief, had to back peddle.
The "youths" were black, and the beating victims white. In its editorial on the beatings, the Journal Sentinel issued the usual call for the police to work with the "community", whoever or whatever that might be. It also said the following:
"Some witnesses and residents questioned whether race played a role in the looting and beatings. Witnesses say the attacks were unprovoked and that the victims were white and the attackers were African-American. But we'd agree with Flynn, who said crime is colorblind. Flynn also downplayed the notion that police tried to minimize the severity of the incidents. Flynn said that initially police weren't fully informed of the details."
Are you **expletive deleted** kidding me? You have mobs of black kids beating white people, but crime is colorblind? I wonder if the Journal Sentinel, police chief and city fathers would be so colorblind if the attackers had been white and the victims black.
This isn't exactly the first instance of mob beatings (and murders) by black "youths" in Milwaukee. In fact, it's becoming almost a biannual or tri-annual summer ritual, beginning five years ago with the beating and murder of a man named Charlie Young.
Denying a problem exists doesn't make it go away.
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Happens in Philly on a regular basis.
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The 50-year social experiment called "liberalism" has produced its first crop of graduates.
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We're seeing more and more of this kind of stuff, or at least it is getting more press coverage.
I wonder how long it will be till one of those mobs goes after a legally armed citizen and what the aftermath of that will be.
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Here's a compilation of the phenomenon:
http://violentflashmobs.com/
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I wonder how long it will be till one of those mobs goes after a legally armed citizen and what the aftermath of that will be.
Messy. In lots of ways.
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Here's a compilation of the phenomenon:
http://violentflashmobs.com/
Looks like the majority of the mobs are in areas hostile to armed self defense.
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Looks like the majority of the mobs are in areas hostile to armed self defense.
DINGDINGDING
We have a WINNER !!!
Sorry, but methinks that once WI gets CCW, the flash mob-beating phenomenon will be confined to Chicago (and Philly)....
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DINGDINGDING
We have a WINNER !!!
Sorry, but methinks that once WI gets CCW, the flash mob-beating phenomenon will be confined to Chicago (and Philly)....
Philly has pretty good RKBA and LTCF laws, because PA makes them. And?
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Philly has pretty good RKBA and LTCF laws, because PA makes them. And?
And for the same reason, flash mobs will continue in Milwaukee- those that live in the area of the latest flash mobs aren't pro self-preservation.
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. . . Witnesses say the attacks were unprovoked and that the victims were white and the attackers were African-American. But we'd agree with Flynn, who said crime is colorblind. . . .
Even the REPORTING isn't colorblind, much less the crime. :facepalm:
What's wrong with "white" and "black" ? Or, to be consistent, "European-American" and "African-American?" (though I personally agree with TR's comments on hyphenated Americans . . . )
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The 50-year social experiment called "liberalism" has produced its first crop of graduates.
50-year? Wouldn't it be more like 80?
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Here's a compilation of the phenomenon:
http://violentflashmobs.com/
At least 2 of the 'flash mobs' reported are not violent. Do we have a 'moral panic' in the works again?
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I think this is a verynbad (and rapidly growing) trend that is very near a tipping point that leads to an extremely bad situation...as more of the press coverage (that does exist) ends with "unidentified people" and little to no actual judicial results, more will be encouraged to risk it, as the risk/reward is being tilted significantly. Even if a small fraction encounter armed SD, the bulk will not (thanks sheeple!), and this behavior will become more brazen and spread. Even with armed SD, people in general are bad at risk assessment, so it is obvious the "how many of us could actually get shot before we beat the guy senseless" though will yield a "not many, and probably not me" result, and BOOM, tipping point.
Welcome to the future my friends.
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50-year? Wouldn't it be more like 80?
LBJ...Wilson...flip a coin. It was LBJ who fathered the American welfare state, but, of course, the roots go further back, back even earlier than that if you want to delve into the British socialists, French radicals, etc., etc. I said 50 because to me this is largely the by-product of fatherless families and moral relativism.
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Looks like the majority of the mobs are in areas hostile to armed self defense.
It'll keep happening in the Riverwest neigborhood of Milwaukee. As noted in another thread here, two of the reported victims who were interviewed by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel were a U.S. Census Worker, and a Social Worker.
For those not in the Milwaukee area, Riverwest is the "East Side" (the real "East Side" is Lake Michigan) neighborhood that butts up against Milwaukee's north-northwest black ghetto axis. It's populated by yuppies, liberals, college students and other .alt/bohemian types who can't afford the more pricier .alt/bohemian areas. Although they've been gentrifying Riverwest and "improving" it somewhat too.
And for the same reason, flash mobs will continue in Milwaukee- those that live in the area of the latest flash mobs aren't pro self-preservation.
Exactly. They won't be availing themselves of CCW permits en-masse anytime soon.
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Here's a compilation of the phenomenon:
http://violentflashmobs.com/
Looking at that, you can see a tipping point process occurring (exponential growth). Since most of the areas involved are northern areas, and areas with substantial slums, I have a few thoughts:
1. Hope it isn't a mild winter
2. Watch for this occurring in areas removed from inner cities, or in cities without substantial slums...that will be the indicator of a spreading phenomenon/tipping point.
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When and if it spreads to the 'burbs we won't be talking any more about flash mobs but something a great deal worse.
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I guess this answers the question of why one might want to open carry a rifle or shotgun in town ;/
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What problem is here that a pair of determined men with modern rifles wouldn't resolve? Rioters are cowards.
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Exactly. They won't be availing themselves of CCW permits en-masse anytime soon.
You know, in a way that could be a Good ThingTM. Darwin and all. ;)
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I guess this answers the question of why one might want to open carry a rifle or shotgun in town ;/
Not open carry, but a shotgun trunk/truck gun kept handy might help.
Of course if this occurs near/at home, I hae a whole lot more than just one shotgun to call on.
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What problem is here that a pair of determined men with modern rifles wouldn't resolve? Rioters are cowards.
At least in major cities, most people do not have modern rifles readily available to them. And the crime is committed quickly then the mobs disperse before an armed response can be mounted. And of course if you did have a rifle, and did respond to a flash mob beating innocent folks you'd run the risks of 1. being shot by the responding cops 2. being sued by the families of the "underprivileged youths" you shot 3. being charged with multiple counts of AwDW and murder.
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At least in major cities, most people do not have modern rifles readily available to them. And the crime is committed quickly then the mobs disperse before an armed response can be mounted. And of course if you did have a rifle, and did respond to a flash mob beating innocent folks you'd run the risks of 1. being shot by the responding cops 2. being sued by the families of the "underprivileged youths" you shot 3. being charged with multiple counts of AwDW and murder.
This occured in Milwaukee. A simple Google search brought up a gun store in Milwaukee selling Bushmaster rifles (http://www.shootersshop.com/bushmaster1.html). As for being sued, a Make My Day law (http://minnesotaindependent.com/80322/make-my-day-law-deadly-force-minnesota) is even now in the works in Minnesota.
Even in California you can get some pretty useful stuff.
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This occured in Milwaukee. A simple Google search brought up a gun store in Milwaukee selling Bushmaster rifles (http://www.shootersshop.com/bushmaster1.html). As for being sued, a Make My Day law (http://minnesotaindependent.com/80322/make-my-day-law-deadly-force-minnesota) is even now in the works in Minnesota.
Even in California you can get some pretty useful stuff.
You're not getting it. The Libertarian/Right "Gun Culture Types" don't live/work or go to those neighborhoods if they can help it.
And Balog's pointing out your rifle won't shoot down the ensuing liberal/MSM/Political ----storm, even if you shot down the mob of black youth.
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Do you think the only people who own guns are gun culture types?
I have news: There are millions of people who own a shotgun, or a rifle for home defense, or maybe have a pistol permit and who are not people like you and me who have guns as a hobby. Sure, they are less common in urban environments (although I am not sure about cities like Nashville). But gun ownership is not - and should not be - tied to ideology.
Guns are a useful tool. This is the message we need to get to people everywhere: firearms are a tool. Get one.
This story is not an illustration of an epic social problem that requires great statesmanlike wisdom to resolve.
Guns have helped to reduce the prevalence of practically violent crime in America - rape, murder, burglary - over the last 15 years. All of those issues which were brought up - political, legal, etc. - apply as well to a man shooting a 'disadvantaged youth' in home defense as they would here. And yet the rates of rape, murder, and hot burglary fell consistently, and people defended themselves actively. This is just the same, except with a more target-rich environment.
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You're not getting it. The Libertarian/Right "Gun Culture Types" don't live/work or go to those neighborhoods if they can help it.
Ayup. I work in that very area, I wouldn't if I could find something better.
Do you think the only people who own guns are gun culture types?
I have news: There are millions of people who own a shotgun, or a rifle for home defense, or maybe have a pistol permit and who are not people like you and me who have guns as a hobby. Sure, they are less common in urban environments (although I am not sure about cities like Nashville). But gun ownership is not - and should not be - tied to ideology.
In the area in Milwaukee that we are talking about, very few people (most are rabidly anti-gun) other than criminals own guns. A household is far more likely to own a water bong than a firearm of any kind. Ownership should not be tied to ideology, but it this case it really is. The whole milwaukee area is very deeply segregated by political/racial/ideological lines.
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Do you think the only people who own guns are gun culture types?
I have news: There are millions of people who own a shotgun, or a rifle for home defense, or maybe have a pistol permit and who are not people like you and me who have guns as a hobby. Sure, they are less common in urban environments (although I am not sure about cities like Nashville). But gun ownership is not - and should not be - tied to ideology.
Guns are a useful tool. This is the message we need to get to people everywhere: firearms are a tool. Get one.
This story is not an illustration of an epic social problem that requires great statesmanlike wisdom to resolve.
Guns have helped to reduce the prevalence of practically violent crime in America - rape, murder, burglary - over the last 15 years. All of those issues which were brought up - political, legal, etc. - apply as well to a man shooting a 'disadvantaged youth' in home defense as they would here. And yet the rates of rape, murder, and hot burglary fell consistently, and people defended themselves actively. This is just the same, except with a more target-rich environment.
The only thing that will change this is the victims themselves, if the experience teaches them... more like hits them over the head, literally, and drags them, kicking and screaming, to the conclusion they should be armed.
Nothing and no one else will do it. The whole anti-gun thing and "violence solves nothing" attitude that's prevalent with a Milwaukee east-side Liberal trancends logic and it's part of their "identity politics". They don't support gun control and oppose CCW because they think it's harmful. Ultimately, they simply oppose it because they feel it's "bad" without meaningful and articulate reasons as to why. Mainly they oppose it because they know the people they oppose politically want it.
If this had happened next year when WI CCW is in effect, and an armed CCW'er had brandished, or actually fired a few shots, saving the rest of these white women from a beating, I can guarantee you that they'd be more horrified at the CCW'er, than they'd be at the mob of black teens looking to beat them.
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If this had happened next year when WI CCW is in effect, and an armed CCW'er had brandished, or actually fired a few shots, saving the rest of these white women from a beating, I can guarantee you that they'd be more horrified at the CCW'er, than they'd be at the mob of black teens looking to beat them.
Well a CCW permit is a hunting license for urban black youth dontchaknow.
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Well a CCW permit is a hunting license for urban black youth dontchaknow.
Must bite tongue... going any further runs the risk of being so non-APS as to get me into severe trouble.
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Must bite tongue... going any further runs the risk of being so non-APS as to get me into severe trouble.
Just paraphrasing what the milwaukee raicebaiters have been saying ;)
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This occured in Milwaukee. A simple Google search brought up a gun store in Milwaukee selling Bushmaster rifles (http://www.shootersshop.com/bushmaster1.html). As for being sued, a Make My Day law (http://minnesotaindependent.com/80322/make-my-day-law-deadly-force-minnesota) is even now in the works in Minnesota.
Even in California you can get some pretty useful stuff.
You think you can fill out a 4473, call in a NICS check, buy everything, load the mags, and respond to the scene before the mod breaks up?
Do you think the only people who own guns are gun culture types?
I have news: There are millions of people who own a shotgun, or a rifle for home defense, or maybe have a pistol permit and who are not people like you and me who have guns as a hobby. Sure, they are less common in urban environments (although I am not sure about cities like Nashville). But gun ownership is not - and should not be - tied to ideology.
Guns are a useful tool. This is the message we need to get to people everywhere: firearms are a tool. Get one.
This story is not an illustration of an epic social problem that requires great statesmanlike wisdom to resolve.
Guns have helped to reduce the prevalence of practically violent crime in America - rape, murder, burglary - over the last 15 years. All of those issues which were brought up - political, legal, etc. - apply as well to a man shooting a 'disadvantaged youth' in home defense as they would here. And yet the rates of rape, murder, and hot burglary fell consistently, and people defended themselves actively. This is just the same, except with a more target-rich environment.
Who said anything about ideology? In non-residential neighborhoods in large cities, it is very uncommon to have a rifle readily available. A few trunk guns, maybe. But running to your car to get the secured rifle out takes time, draws attention to you (potentially anyway), and is not generally going to be practical.
As for the bolded part, maybe you and I agree with that, but the prosecutors in large cities such as we are discussing probably do not. The MSM do not. The gang bangin' buddies of the flash mobbers certainly do not. There are a lot of practical issues you are ignoring in your efforts to turn this to your ideological advantage.
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The main problem with 'Trunk Guns' is unless you've got loved ones in great peril, or people to whom you feel you have an exceptional duty to protect, by the time you've reached your car, why not just get in and drive away from the trouble?
Unless my family is in peril, I'm not returning to the scene of a crime or altercation or mass-shooting or worse in progress, rifle or not.
Walt Whitman TX A&M tower sniper, where civilians kept him pinned down, or the Jonesborough(?) school shooting where the Vice Principal ran to his car off-grounds and retrieved an M1 carbine and stopped the shooting are about the only two instances where "trunk guns" were of use I can think of.
If there's more, I'd like to know. I like the idea of the trunk gun, under the "better to have and not need, than need and not have" premise, but realistically, I'm hard pressed to think of a scenario where I'm actually going to employ one without doing something extraordinarily foolhardy and dangerous.
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As for the bolded part, maybe you and I agree with that, but the prosecutors in large cities such as we are discussing probably do not. The MSM do not. The gang bangin' buddies of the flash mobbers certainly do not. There are a lot of practical issues you are ignoring in your efforts to turn this to your ideological advantage.
What ideological advantage?
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The main problem with 'Trunk Guns' is unless you've got loved ones in great peril, or people to whom you feel you have an exceptional duty to protect, by the time you've reached your car, why not just get in and drive away from the trouble?
Unless my family is in peril, I'm not returning to the scene of a crime or altercation or mass-shooting or worse in progress, rifle or not.
Walt Whitman TX A&M tower sniper, where civilians kept him pinned down, or the Jonesborough(?) school shooting where the Vice Principal ran to his car off-grounds and retrieved an M1 carbine and stopped the shooting are about the only two instances where "trunk guns" were of use I can think of.
If there's more, I'd like to know. I like the idea of the trunk gun, under the "better to have and not need, than need and not have" premise, but realistically, I'm hard pressed to think of a scenario where I'm actually going to employ one without doing something extraordinarily foolhardy and dangerous.
My reason for a trunk gun is for the very unlikely event that a lot of bad things coincide with eathother in one day on a 10x bigger scale than they've happened seperately- rioting (can and has happened), transportation routes cut off (once a month phenomenon for me), power gets cut/natural disaster (least likely event, but the one that would trigger the other two).
It makes me feel a lot better that if I had to, could pick up my rucksack and carbine and could walk out of the city. I have a work buddy that lives near me that has the same plan and preparation- and uses the same ammo :cool:
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What ideological advantage?
I'm not sure "ideological advantage" here is exactly the right choice of words. I can't speak for Balog, but you're displaying a peculiar obstinate naiveté about the realities and aftermath of a racially loaded self defense situation in America.
1. The whites in this particular area of Milwaukee will probably never be pro gun or pro CCW.
2. Even if there is a successful self-defense shooting by a white CCW'er, or someone open carrying a rifle, you're refusing to recognize the completely devastating reaction of the media, the police, the prosecutor, the community, and the aggressor's surviving family. Even if the shooter prevails legally because ultimately the law is on their side, this process can still mean months, if not years of having one's life turned upside down, and cause you to incur expensive legal costs and any other number of major life disruptions.
The natural cost/benefit calculations that anyone who actually has enough independent thought that they might use a firearm for self defense means they just won't be in that neighborhood in the first place.
My reason for a trunk gun is for the very unlikely event that a lot of bad things coincide with eathother in one day on a 10x bigger scale than they've happened seperately- rioting (can and has happened), transportation routes cut off (once a month phenomenon for me), power gets cut/natural disaster (least likely event, but the one that would trigger the other two).
It makes me feel a lot better that if I had to, could pick up my rucksack and carbine and could walk out of the city. I have a work buddy that lives near me that has the same plan and preparation- and uses the same ammo :cool:
I guess that sums up my feeling on the "trunk gun" as well.
My thoughts were more directed at the idea Micro alluded to by saying someone should buy a Bushmaster/AR-15 type rifle at the Shooter's Shop in the face of the late night fireworks/park mob.
He's just not getting that someone walking around downtown Milwaukee with a slung AR-15 would have been the "bigger deal" than the mob in the eyes of the city government and the MPD, and the local (law abiding) residents, no matter what WI law says about open carry.
I don't want to put words into his mouth, but I feel he's implying people should walk around Milwaukee's ghetto and borderline areas with rifles and "tame it".
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What ideological advantage?
You have a narrative that you try to fit world events into, to satisfy your positions. Perhaps ideology was the wrong word.
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My thoughts were more directed at the idea Micro alluded to by saying someone should buy a Bushmaster/AR-15 type rifle at the Shooter's Shop in the face of the late night fireworks/park mob.
I think there was a misunderstanding when Balog said that urbanites would not have the rifles "readily available." Balog meant on their person; MB thought that meant available for purchase.
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I don't want to put words into his mouth, but I feel he's implying people should walk around Milwaukee's ghetto and borderline areas with rifles and "tame it".
No, I'm not outright insane. I'm going to post in detail in a moment.
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1. It's notable that those 'incidents' are not restricted to Milwaukee – that table also lists events that happened in Nashville and other such places not known for an anti-gun bias.
2. There was a time – and I think is still done in some places – where businesses kept a shotgun or some other longarm on the premises to fend off robberies etc. We sometimes still see this happen – sort of like this (http://www.startribune.com/94572104.html), this (http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/58480692.html), this (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/nyregion/14shoot.html), and similar events.
Perhaps not in Minnesota, but maybe in Nashville or Las Vegas I think you'd see someone eventually run into such a store owner and get shot. If you are a store owner attacked by a dozen thugs you will not think about how bad it will look in the press if you shoot them.
Right now, these events are extremely rare – that site lists maybe a dozen in 2010, in a country of 300 million. The chance this will happen at a specific store is really small – and most of these are less 'violent attack' and more 'organized shoplifting'.
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. . . The chance this will happen at a specific store is really small – and most of these are less 'violent attack' and more 'organized shoplifting'.
Most people - including those licensed to carry concealed weapons - are NOT going to intervene in a shoplifting incident at a store where they're a customer. What I see happening is that some of the shoplifters will see what they think is an easy mark in the store, get caught up in the excitement of their lawbreaking . . . and decide to assault the wrong (some would say right) person.
Eventually it's going to happen. OR they'll hit a privately owned store or franchise where the owner IS armed. And one or more of the mob is going to suffer some major consequences.
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Most people - including those licensed to carry concealed weapons - are NOT going to intervene in a shoplifting incident at a store where they're a customer.
A shoplifting accident? No, but a shop owner is not going to shoot people over shoplifting either.
But if people are assaulting the shop owner and his life/limb is actually threatened?
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Perhaps not in Minnesota, but maybe in Nashville or Las Vegas I think you'd see someone eventually run into such a store owner and get shot. If you are a store owner attacked by a dozen thugs you will not think about how bad it will look in the press if you shoot them.
If something like this happened here in this part of AL, and a store owner shot some of the punks, I'm pretty confident saying that he wouldn't be charged, and he'd have the support of the community, including blacks.
From what I've seen in the past year, people like it when citizens shoot criminals.
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There was a long period of several years in WI where there were a few notable self-defense cases with illegal CCW that wen't un-prosecuted.
An elderly man, getting gas in WI between Milwaukee and Chicago was accosted shot a "youth" who tried to beat him/strong arm rob him.
There was also a Pizza delivery driver who shot someone attempting to rob him in the ghetto with a toy pistol (I believe). This was his SECOND defensive CCW use.
However, in both these cases, the State Supreme Court was one decision away from making WI like Vermont, due to their frustration at the Legislature's inaction (in reality the previous Governor's vetoes) over CCW, and how it ran up against the WI State Constitution's very clearly worded RKBA amendment.
So the DA's and ADA's and liberal lower level circuit court judges were hesitant to send up any more case law.
Now that it's passed, I suspect the more liberal ones who don't like CCW, RKBA, and armed self-defense in general will actually be in "payback" mode for awhile over any self-defense shootings that happen in the large liberal metro areas of WI. For awhile at least. While they won't be issuing any firearm charges, they'll be going over the shootings with a fine toothed comb looking for any excuse to charge the shooter.
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...
Now that it's passed, I suspect the more liberal ones who don't like CCW, RKBA, and armed self-defense in general will actually be in "payback" mode for awhile over any self-defense shootings that happen in the large liberal metro areas of WI. For awhile at least. While they won't be issuing any firearm charges, they'll be going over the shootings with a fine toothed comb looking for any excuse to charge the shooter.
And Eugene Kane will write about it, and Carole Meekins will put on her "this is serious business" face and pull out her "I mean it, this is serious business" voice when talking about it on the evening news...
It will be interesting to see the media's reaction.
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Walt Whitman TX A&M tower sniper, where civilians kept him pinned down, or the Jonesborough(?) school shooting where the Vice Principal ran to his car off-grounds and retrieved an M1 carbine and stopped the shooting are about the only two instances where "trunk guns" were of use I can think of.
How about the one where AJ Dual gets buttstroked repeatedly for posting the equivalent of this paper (http://aceonlineschools.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/jesus.jpg)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting
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this paper (http://aceonlineschools.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/jesus.jpg)?
Tell me that's not, you know, real.
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Flash mobs are war parties. Tribal behavior tends to produce similar behavior. This isn't going to be about one or two armed people shooting back when attacked. Just a prediction.
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The "youths" were black, and the beating victims white. In its editorial on the beatings, the Journal Sentinel issued the usual call for the police to work with the "community", whoever or whatever that might be. It also said the following:
"Some witnesses and residents questioned whether race played a role in the looting and beatings. Witnesses say the attacks were unprovoked and that the victims were white and the attackers were African-American. But we'd agree with Flynn, who said crime is colorblind. Flynn also downplayed the notion that police tried to minimize the severity of the incidents. Flynn said that initially police weren't fully informed of the details."
It'll only be a racially motivated Hate Crimeâ„¢ when one of the white victims fights back and kills-or-maims some of the "poor disadvantaged yoots" attackers.
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Tell me that's not, you know, real.
It is awesome.
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This may be the sort of thing that gets hand grenades recognized as viable self-defense tools.... :cool:
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Mal: Jayne, how many weapons you plan on taking? You only got the two arms.
Jayne: Well, I just get excitable as to choice. Like to have my options open.
Mal: I don't plan on any shooting taking place during this job.
Jayne: Yeah, well what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
Mal: (pause) No grenades.
=(
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Flash mobs are war parties. Tribal behavior tends to produce similar behavior. This isn't going to be about one or two armed people shooting back when attacked. Just a prediction.
Flash mobs are entirely different from these events.
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It is awesome.
As I always say: "fail big or go home." =D
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Flash mobs are entirely different from these events.
Implies that mobs that set out to attack by race don't communicate by digital means. Rather doubtful. But the issue isn't how they congregate, it's why.
And, I repeat, these angry, lawless mobs are war parties. Go to the source.
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Tell me that's not, you know, real.
Actually, I wrote some tongue-in-cheek things like that in HS, only my grammar and "logic" were impeccable so I got full credit for them.
I precisely met the requirements of the assignment, only not quite in the manner that my english (actually, he was irish to be precise!) teacher intended. Did I mention that I was bored?
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Tell me that's not, you know, real.
I want to talk to the teacher for giving that 37% credit.
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Implies that mobs that set out to attack by race don't communicate by digital means. Rather doubtful. But the issue isn't how they congregate, it's why.
And, I repeat, these angry, lawless mobs are war parties. Go to the source.
The casualties seem low for a war.
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2. Even if there is a successful self-defense shooting by a white CCW'er, or someone open carrying a rifle, you're refusing to recognize the completely devastating reaction of the media, the police, the prosecutor, the community, and the aggressor's surviving family. Even if the shooter prevails legally because ultimately the law is on their side, this process can still mean months, if not years of having one's life turned upside down, and cause you to incur expensive legal costs and any other number of major life disruptions.
The natural cost/benefit calculations that anyone who actually has enough independent thought that they might use a firearm for self defense means they just won't be in that neighborhood in the first place.
I guess that sums up my feeling on the "trunk gun" as well.
Tis why my state passed a law that more or less codified the right to self-defense, and gave immunity for a valid self-defense. While not a complete free pass for a valid self-defense, that just leaves the media and community to deal with. Sure, the police, prosecutor and family can try to give you grief, but the amount of damage they can do is minimized to probably $2,000 to $10,000 for your lawyer to make a single legal citation, prove that you met it (assuming you did) and the judge to throw out the criminal or civil case. If you win, you are supposed to be awarded your legal costs back. While not perfect, that is entirely manageable.
I don't think the legal cost reimbursement is widely known among criminals yet. It will be entertaining the first time a criminal's family sues, loses and then is forced to cover the cost of the entire civil case.
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The casualties seem low for a war.
I think you mean the reported casualties, don't you? But ask the police making the calls. Racial and ethnic tension in America has been rising for some time. Our economic travails promise to make it worse.
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Any large group that comes together to do illegal things is using violence whether blood is spilt or not. At this stage it is mostly implied violence, quantity having a quality all of its own. Mobs of petty criminals, especially those drawing on perceived societal wrongs, move on to bigger things be it Weimar or Rwanda.
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I don't think the legal cost reimbursement is widely known among criminals yet. It will be entertaining the first time a criminal's family sues, loses and then is forced to cover the cost of the entire civil case.
How many of these criminals' families would actually have the means to reimburse the cost of their civil case when it gets tossed? I suspect the CCW shooter would still be out of pocket for most of the legal costs. Blood from turnips and all that.
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Philly has pretty good RKBA and LTCF laws, because PA makes them. And?
Philly does its damndest to dodge or outright ignore any RKBA law they can. Including harassing/arrsting people carrying using out of state permits or open carrying.
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Well, one writer of a letter to the editor had a predictable liberal response to the beatings. Note that it's poverty that caused this (my parents lived through the Great Depression, and never beat anybody), and it's not even the fault of the perps themselves.
**************
ATTACKS
Chief's comments not very helpful
A resident of Riverwest, I enjoyed the fireworks in Kilbourn Park on July 3 and left (thankfully) before the violence occurred. I was horrified at hearing the news of what happened that night.
Unfortunately, Wednesday's town hall meeting in Gordon Park has done little to reassure us and address the needs of our community.
Milwaukee Police Chief Edward Flynn has done little more than denounce the events as "barbaric" and try his best to save face, admitting some fault while assuring the city that the Police Department mostly handled the incidents correctly and effectively.
The fact is that adolescents in Milwaukee, one of the poorest and most segregated cities in the nation, are facing a crisis: a seemingly hopeless future without jobs, education or any real opportunity. Our children are growing and living in neighborhoods where poverty and violence are facts of life. The understanding that incidents such as looting and beatings occur in this type of setting is logical and frightening.
The night of July 3 was a wake-up call for Milwaukee. We can't continue to blame parents, police or misdirected youths. Unless we, as a city and as a nation, begin to address the issue of poverty and the violence it breeds, we can expect more of the same.
Mike Helbick
Milwaukee
********************************************
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Well, one writer of a letter to the editor had a predictable liberal response to the beatings. Note that it's poverty that caused this (my parents lived through the Great Depression, and never beat anybody), and it's not even the fault of the perps themselves.
**************
ATTACKS
Chief's comments not very helpful
A resident of Riverwest, I enjoyed the fireworks in Kilbourn Park on July 3 and left (thankfully) before the violence occurred. I was horrified at hearing the news of what happened that night.
Unfortunately, Wednesday's town hall meeting in Gordon Park has done little to reassure us and address the needs of our community.
Milwaukee Police Chief Edward Flynn has done little more than denounce the events as "barbaric" and try his best to save face, admitting some fault while assuring the city that the Police Department mostly handled the incidents correctly and effectively.
The fact is that adolescents in Milwaukee, one of the poorest and most segregated cities in the nation, are facing a crisis: a seemingly hopeless future without jobs, education or any real opportunity. Our children are growing and living in neighborhoods where poverty and violence are facts of life. The understanding that incidents such as looting and beatings occur in this type of setting is logical and frightening.
The night of July 3 was a wake-up call for Milwaukee. We can't continue to blame parents, police or misdirected youths. Unless we, as a city and as a nation, begin to address the issue of poverty and the violence it breeds, we can expect more of the same.
Mike Helbick
Milwaukee
********************************************
I agree with the author's assessment that Obama is to blame.
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http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2011/07/11/stopped-clock-is-right-twice-a-day/
SIH with some cogent input.
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It should come as no surprise that the usual suspects want to conflate RKBA with racism. Law-abiding gun-owners did not create the racial tensions in this society. Who and what is behind the attacks? The one thing we can't do is pretend they don't exist and what threat they present. If legitimate authority in America keeps blaming everyone but the attackers, this situation can only devolve. It doesn't have to.
***
By the way the phenomenon is apparently not confined to the U.S.:
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/019863.html
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It should come as no surprise that the usual suspects want to conflate RKBA with racism.
Do you feel Sebastian is also one of the usual suspects?
Who and what is behind the attacks?
The attackers, naturally.
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You know I mean the mainstream media and the whole operation of the idea-disseminating Left in America.
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I think Sebastian's point (which I agree with) is that Gabe Suarez is an idiot.
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He (Suarez) certainly isn't helping the situation.
This ought to be wonderful "teachable moment" for Our President. He needs to materialize and give one of his inspiring speeches.
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http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2011/07/11/stopped-clock-is-right-twice-a-day/
SIH with some cogent input.
Meh, not so much.
Clarity and truthfulness are to be valued, even if someone's feelings are hurt.
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Meh, not so much.
Clarity and truthfulness are to be valued, even if someone's feelings are hurt.
Except, as he pointed out, Suarez is not being truthful.
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Except, as he pointed out, Suarez is not being truthful.
Much as I hate Suarez, I think SiH is reading too much into his comments in the same way that he is accusing Suarez of reading too much into the incidents.
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How many of these criminals' families would actually have the means to reimburse the cost of their civil case when it gets tossed? I suspect the CCW shooter would still be out of pocket for most of the legal costs. Blood from turnips and all that.
i think, it's a ruling that they can't have money in the bank for what ever time. just like not paying child support etc. as in they'll even take a SS settlement. if they went that far, i think it'll be a bigger deterrent then it first appears. >:D
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Much as I hate Suarez, I think SiH is reading too much into his comments in the same way that he is accusing Suarez of reading too much into the incidents.
Me, too, sorta. I don't hate Suarez, but I am not too impressed. I also find him mildly annoying and wonder why anyone would pay him to train them.
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Me, too, sorta. I don't hate Suarez, but I am not too impressed. I also find him mildly annoying and wonder why anyone would pay him to train them.
Did you follow the debacle where he was pimping after market AK mags as the bestest toughest thing evar, only to have them fail miserably the first time someone dropped them. Guy is a huckster, as well as just generally annoying.
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A good comrade in Kentucky seems to have dealt with a situation like this:
http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/index.php/2011/08/08/a-cure-for-the-common-mob/
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Is it me, or are there more mobs than usual as of late?
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My guess is the ease of co ordination Twitter/text messages/everyone having email capable phones provides is helping that trend. Fosters the group mentality without requiring proximity. And after all the press the Arab "uprisings" got I'm not surprised to see these tactics in the civilized world.
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Or possibly we simply hear more of this.
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My guess is the ease of co ordination Twitter/text messages/everyone having email capable phones provides is helping that trend. Fosters the group mentality without requiring proximity. And after all the press the Arab "uprisings" got I'm not surprised to see these tactics in the civilized world.
On the plus side, a London guy on twitter has been arranging clean-up crews.
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don't forget all the politicians calling to bring the "Arab spring" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring) to America. =|
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don't forget all the politicians calling to bring the "Arab spring" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring) to America. =|
Sorry to repeat myself from another thread, but I think it's important to note that the American Spring happened two years before the Arab Spring. The former is vilified by the American media and Democratic Party. The latter is praised.
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Just a prediction, but these are practice runs for the next election cycle. Mob induced voter intimidation, coming to a polling place near you.
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Just a prediction, but these are practice runs for the next election cycle. Mob induced voter intimidation, coming to a polling place near you.
Maybe I've lived in the south too long, but around here that would be very dangerous for the mob.
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Maybe I've lived in the south too long, but around here that would be very dangerous for the mob.
In and close to the cities I expect they would meet little resistance. Also, many states ban carry in or within a certain distance of polling places....
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Maybe I've lived in the south too long, but around here that would be very dangerous for the mob.
This. I can't speak for the rest of the country or even the South, but I don't worry about this happening in my town. Too many law-abiding, hard-working, gun-owning people.
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A good comrade in Kentucky seems to have dealt with a situation like this:
http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/index.php/2011/08/08/a-cure-for-the-common-mob/
The ambiance in his neighborhood is very similar to mine.
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I think even in Houston, mob participants could expect to get shot. They had a guy shoot a person dead on a city bus and get off completely on self defense grounds. I really don't think that would go over too well.
If I am not mistaken, the major city zip codes have quite a few CHL licenses in Texas.
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In and close to the cities I expect they would meet little resistance. Also, many states ban carry in or within a certain distance of polling places....
Eh, I disagree.
The precents that wouldn't have a problem with it are the one's that don't need intimidation. I live in a pretty dang big metro area, and outside form some of the ghetto polling places in St. Petersburg a mob outside a polling place would likely see a quick and violent end. Yes FL restricts weapons in polling places, and some of the more polite and/or aware of the law ccwers will even leave them in a car. But I'd bet more just walk in and ignore the law.
And that doesn't take into account that by their very nature polling places are close to you're home. A more likely scenario is a wife comes home (or texts) about a bunch of folks telling her how to vote and 5 or 6 nieghbors grab battle rifles and drive over to fix the situation. In my neighborhood response time would be significantly quicker then the police's.
I'm not sure that would be a good, or appropriate, response but I think it's likely if there's any sort of mob induced intimidation.
Prolly different up north, as the whole culture is different.
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Sorry to repeat myself from another thread, but I think it's important to note that the American Spring happened two years before the Arab Spring. The former is vilified by the American media and Democratic Party. The latter is praised.
i didn't count the tea party as a "spring" because no one died, also there was something else missing, but i'd rather not talk about it. =| the idiots calling to bring this home should be... :mad:
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I fully expect them to try it. How it ends may be another matter. But the shootings of some minority youths in the cities also might spark something more serious.
Funny enough, I was flipping channels on satellite radio because my radio presets got messed up, trying to find conservative talk. Found Al Sharpton and paused. He was talking about the success of the tea party and claimed that it could be defeated by "out organizing" the tea party.
All the conservative political pundits are saying that since Obama can't run on his record, expect this to be the nastiest ugliest election cycle, ever.
I dunno. Something in my gut tells me these mobs are part of a bigger scheme. I'd love to be wrong and see a nice, peaceful, orderly election. And for most people it will be.
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Luckily, two out of my three closest neighbors and I have LOS on the polling place and can provide supporting fire to anyone wishing to vote.
Here's a helpful hint to would-be polling place mobs (or any other kind of mobs):
Keep it in your own neighborhood, because it won't be a healthy activity in ours.
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seems there are many more occurrences than I was aware of!
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/08/the_racial_violence_that_dare_not_speak_its_name.html
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That is really frightening. Thanks to the MSM for not covering those stories. [barf]
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Racial mobs are just the anteroom to the ugly fruits of welfare statism: anarchy or police state. If we're lucky 2012 will not be the last Election in what we have known as America. But it definitely could be.
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That is really frightening. Thanks to the MSM for not covering those stories. [barf]
If you click on some of the links in that story, the mindset and reasoning behind many (most?) of these attacks, as related by the perpetrators, is even more frightening.
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For once, I'm glad that Oregon has vote by mail. It may be rife with fraud, but at least I don't have to worry about potentially being attacked for going to vote. Because I think the comments here are right, this is practice for Nov. '12.