Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: gunsmith on July 14, 2011, 07:27:15 PM
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http://www.omaha.com/article/20110713/NEWS01/707139920#cheerleading-case-stirs-up-dispute
I'm all for it, it seems to me all you need is school/team spirit, I'm sure they could figure out routines for her. I hope she prevails.
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She can't do the basic activities she's trying out for, and suing the school for pointing that out. Sad.
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Bloody morons.
Cheerleading is a sport. Making "reasonable accommodations" so that someone who can't do any of the things that cheerleaders do can "make the squad" is no different from changing the rules of football or basketball so a person with no arms or legs can play.
Good grief, I've been an advocate for accessibility issues for more than 30 years, and even I know this is idiotic. What they'll end up doing is getting the cheerleading squad disbanded. No cheerleaders = no discrimination.
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Our school had a cheerleader with... Cant remember what its called but it causes bones to malform. She could walk with crutchs, but also used a wheelchair.
Our cheerleaders had trophies before the football team ever won a game.
Other cheer teams have girls with disabilities and compete and win.
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It really depends on if she can meet the requirements for being a high-school cheerleader....
1. Can she use flirtation and sexual innuendo to have the nerds do her Science homework?
2. Can she max out all her parents' credit cards in one shopping trip?
3. Can she get drunk and flash the entire football team?
4. Can she get pregnant after a one-night stand with the star running back?
5. Can she have Daddy bail her out of all the trouble she gets in?
....if she can meet the cheerleading requirements, then the school should let her be a cheerleader....
....needless to say, I didn't care much for cheerleaders while in high school......
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Mrs. fistful tried out for cheer-leading. Didn't make the cut. Should have sued, I guess.
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Bloody morons.
Cheerleading is a sport. Making "reasonable accommodations" so that someone who can't do any of the things that cheerleaders do can "make the squad" is no different from changing the rules of football or basketball so a person with no arms or legs can play.
Good grief, I've been an advocate for accessibility issues for more than 30 years, and even I know this is idiotic. What they'll end up doing is getting the cheerleading squad disbanded. No cheerleaders = no discrimination.
+1
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I don't get the idea that she really wants to sue, just be allowed to participate to the best of her abilities. She's in high school, not trying out for the Dallas Cheerleader squad. High schools should make accommodations for the disabled.
Her sister was a cheer leader and helped her make some routines, I think her story would inspire other disabled teens to follow their dreams.
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Well, I guess I know who they'll toss into the air and catch...
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Well, I guess I know who they'll toss into the air and catch...
:D :D :D (Although I feel guilty laughing).
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Bloody morons.
Cheerleading is a sport. Making "reasonable accommodations" so that someone who can't do any of the things that cheerleaders do can "make the squad" is no different from changing the rules of football or basketball so a person with no arms or legs can play.
Good grief, I've been an advocate for accessibility issues for more than 30 years, and even I know this is idiotic. What they'll end up doing is getting the cheerleading squad disbanded. No cheerleaders = no discrimination.
+eleventydozen, here.
It's just a short step to basketball teams being forced to bring on short people. Or one-armed baseball players.
Can you imagine the varsity tennis team being compelled to allow a kid with cerebral palsy on?
This also threatens to undermine the concept of VARSITY sports. There are try-outs.
I never made the cut for varsity basketball. I tried my hardest, but didn't cut it. Do you know how absolutely livid I'd be if some kid with cerebral palsy, or in a wheelchair, or one-handed, got a spot on the VARSITY team, and I didn't? Especially if I smoked him on the court every single day during try-outs?
Cheer in my high school was a varsity sport. There was also a JV cheer team, too, just like every other sport had a JV team. There were try-outs for the JV teams, just like varsity.
Can you imagine an aspiring athlete with real skill/potential getting bumped so someone with a disability can feel good about themselves?
High school sports are the last bastion of competition in public schools. They aren't part of the guidance counselor's group-hug sessions.
No one says these kids can't play ball or cheer. They can go do it extra-curricularly, at a private organization outside of school. YMCA, dance studios, whatever.
Stay out of Varsity try-outs. Seriously.
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It's just a short step to basketball teams being forced to bring on short people. Or one-armed baseball players.
Wasn't there a one-armed pitcher for a while?
As for basketball teams being forced to bring someone on . . . the NBA should be forced to hire more Caucasians and Orientals, both of whom are seriously under represented based on their prevalence in the population at large. >:D
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It really depends on if she can meet the requirements for being a high-school cheerleader....
1. Can she use flirtation and sexual innuendo to have the nerds do her Science homework?
2. Can she max out all her parents' credit cards in one shopping trip?
3. Can she get drunk and flash the entire football team?
4. Can she get pregnant after a one-night stand with the star running back?
5. Can she have Daddy bail her out of all the trouble she gets in?
....if she can meet the cheerleading requirements, then the school should let her be a cheerleader....
....needless to say, I didn't care much for cheerleaders while in high school......
You just described the girl's lacrosse team in my high school. The cheerleaders were the awkward girls who didn't do sports.
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You just described the girl's lacrosse team in my high school. The cheerleaders were the awkward girls who didn't do sports.
Not all cheerleaders are hot . . . in Iowa, word is they use natural grass on the athletic fields so the cheerleaders can graze . . .
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Well, I guess I know who they'll toss into the air and catch...
Where am I going in this handbasket, and why is it getting so hot? :laugh:
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Wasn't there a one-armed pitcher for a while?
As for basketball teams being forced to bring someone on . . . the NBA should be forced to hire more Caucasians and Orientals, both of whom are seriously under represented based on their prevalence in the population at large. >:D
Sure, but he actually had a heater of a fastball, and could get his glove back on his throwing arm pretty quickly. He EARNED his position on the team as a pitcher. Not sure if they used a DH for him or not, or if he was a relief pitcher only and didn't bat. Regardless... he EARNED it.
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My quip upon reading the story on facebook was
at last, someone I could play dodge ball with
Cheer leading isn't a sport, it can be a very challenging athletic activity, but I see no harm in allowing this nice young lady to assist in energizing the crowd.
What would be the harm in having one routine she could participate in? put streamers on her chair? give her a bullhorn?
The main purpose of cheerleading is leading cheers not dance routines.
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My quip upon reading the story on facebook was
Cheer leading isn't a sport, it can be a very challenging athletic activity, but I see no harm in allowing this nice young lady to assist in energizing the crowd.
What would be the harm in having one routine she could participate in? put streamers on her chair? give her a bullhorn?
The main purpose of cheerleading is leading cheers not dance routines.
Actually, cheerleading is as highly commercialized and competitive as any other "mainstream" sport. Folks have kidnapped and killed in their attempts to get their little darlings on the squad, or to keep some other hussy/slut from getting picked.
Lately the all sports/all the time networks have moved the cheerleading competitionsfrom the middle of the night to mid-morning, opening up viewership to a whole new group of perverts - or so I'm told.
The young lady is to be commended for her enthusiasm, and the cheerleading squad might be persuaded to enlist her as a mascot or otherwise include her in some of their activities, but this "demanding" a spot on the team because she is handicapped is IMHO the worst sort of condesention possible and her parents ought to be horsewhipped for it.
stay safe.
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i think it is admirable that the parents want their child to believe she can achieve anthing that she wants to be. (now staple thos pom-poms on her forhead dammit!)
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FTR:
Cheerleading, figure skating, and most gymnastics have tremendous athletic components, but are "sports" only in the way a dance competition could be considered "sport."
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Not all cheerleaders are hot . . . in Iowa, word is they use natural grass on the athletic fields so the cheerleaders can graze . . .
I always thought Iowa girls were corn fed, guess i was wrong.
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Gee, alot of these posts sound like the company I used to work for. Many times I put in for a new job and was told, without witnesses of course, that I did not fit the company profile for someone in that position. I was white, old, fat, and the wrong sex........chris3
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FTR:
Cheerleading, figure skating, and most gymnastics have tremendous athletic components, but are "sports" only in the way a dance competition could be considered "sport."
They are a performance. It takes talent and significant athletic ability to do those things (I would add the martial arts "forms" competitions to that list), but a sport has a winner judged by objectively measureable outcomes like time to complete, scoring points, distance, etc.. (in addition to requiring talent and athletic ability.)
So: track and field- takes a lot of ability and talent, measurable outcomes. (Did you cross the line before the other runner? Winner!)- sport
Cheerleading, gymnastics, diving, et al.- takes a lot of ability and talent, no measurable outcome (Judge 6 gives you a 5.7, in his opinion. ) - not a sport
Chess, Bowling, Curling, et al.- measureable outcome, takes talent (and ability) but not athletic ability. Not a sport.
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They are a performance. It takes talent and significant athletic ability to do those things (I would add the martial arts "forms" competitions to that list), but a sport has a winner judged by objectively measureable outcomes like time to complete, scoring points, distance, etc.. (in addition to requiring talent and athletic ability.)
So: track and field- takes a lot of ability and talent, measurable outcomes. (Did you cross the line before the other runner? Winner!)- sport
Cheerleading, gymnastics, diving, et al.- takes a lot of ability and talent, no measurable outcome (Judge 6 gives you a 5.7, in his opinion. ) - not a sport
Chess, Bowling, Curling, et al.- measureable outcome, takes talent (and ability) but not athletic ability. Not a sport.
I think there is more objectivity than you realize in the scoring of things like gymnastics and diving, but I do agree with you on the fact that there is some subjective component
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They are a performance. It takes talent and significant athletic ability to do those things (I would add the martial arts "forms" competitions to that list), but a sport has a winner judged by objectively measureable outcomes like time to complete, scoring points, distance, etc.. (in addition to requiring talent and athletic ability.)
So: track and field- takes a lot of ability and talent, measurable outcomes. (Did you cross the line before the other runner? Winner!)- sport
Cheerleading, gymnastics, diving, et al.- takes a lot of ability and talent, no measurable outcome (Judge 6 gives you a 5.7, in his opinion. ) - not a sport
Chess, Bowling, Curling, et al.- measureable outcome, takes talent (and ability) but not athletic ability. Not a sport.
This ^^^.
I used to laugh at Joe Weider when he'd write in favor of making bodybuilding an Olympic competition. Then, I thought about all the subjective non-sports that are allowed and I figured it was as "sporty" as many of the extant competitions.
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Wasn't there a one-armed pitcher for a while?
As for basketball teams being forced to bring someone on . . . the NBA should be forced to hire more Caucasians and Orientals, both of whom are seriously under represented based on their prevalence in the population at large. >:D
Jim abbot. Impressive
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IMO, the simple thing is to let the girl try out like everyone else. If she does not make it, that should be the end of it. If she makes it, they can make allowances for her condition, but if not, she should have the same appeals process everyone else does.
I think the cheerleaders in my high school wouldn't be athletes, but they didn't do all the cheer competition stuff. Other high schools take that stuff very very seriously.
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IMO, the simple thing is to let the girl try out like everyone else. If she does not make it, that should be the end of it. If she makes it, they can make allowances for her condition, but if not, she should have the same appeals process everyone else does.
I think the cheerleaders in my high school wouldn't be athletes, but they didn't do all the cheer competition stuff. Other high schools take that stuff very very seriously.
According to the article, they did let her try out. She and her parents are now complaining because they believe the decision was unfair and the team needs to accomodate her disability.
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People need to learn that NO, you CAN'T do anything you put your mind to, and it's not anyone elses responsibility to make it easier for you to do so!
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Gee, alot of these posts sound like the company I used to work for. Many times I put in for a new job and was told, without witnesses of course, that I did not fit the company profile for someone in that position. I was white, old, fat, and the wrong sex........chris3
You wanted to be a hooker?
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Two things that amused me:
1. Fitz's post, juxtaposed with zxcvbob's avatar. Immediately made me think of - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q5Q3rSx2oQ
2. Another juxtaposition, this time of thread titles: "girl born without arms/legs wants to be a Cheerleader" "Pray that my dog wants to eat her"
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People need to learn that NO, you CAN'T do anything you put your mind to, and it's not anyone elses responsibility to make it easier for you to do so!
All too true. Some of the lawyers I see should have been taught that lesson. ;)
I see this case two ways. if cheerleading is a "sport" in which they go to games, do cheers, and try to engage the crowd, then they can accomodate her.
If cheerleading is a "sport" where the team goes to competitions and does these gymnastic/dance routines, and all members of the team must participate, then there is no way to accomodate her.
Speaking of ADA, I recently had a mother in a custody case tell me that I had to accomodate the fact that she fell asleep at a public park and let her 2 year old wander around downtown for 2 hours unattended because she's got "narcissuslepsy" that makes her pass out all the time. Yeah, and the BAC of .19 and heroin found in the needle stuck in her arm had nothing to do with it.
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All too true. Some of the lawyers I see should have been taught that lesson. ;)
I see this case two ways. if cheerleading is a "sport" in which they go to games, do cheers, and try to engage the crowd, then they can accomodate her.
If cheerleading is a "sport" where the team goes to competitions and does these gymnastic/dance routines, and all members of the team must participate, then there is no way to accomodate her.
Speaking of ADA, I recently had a mother in a custody case tell me that I had to accomodate the fact that she fell asleep at a public park and let her 2 year old wander around downtown for 2 hours unattended because she's got "narcissuslepsy" that makes her pass out all the time. Yeah, and the BAC of .19 and heroin found in the needle stuck in her arm had nothing to do with it.
LOL... reminds me of the young man who'd gotten hired at CompUSA when I worked there in the mid-90s in another life. After one week of employment, he vanished for a week, then showed up one day surprised when he was told he no longer worked there.
I was loitering about listening in on his conversation with the managers trying to escort him out. His claim, he "forgot" to show up for the past week because "I gots dat old-timer (Alzheimer's? :laugh: ) disease, and need to see a doctor."
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People need to learn that NO, you CAN'T do anything you put your mind to, and it's not anyone elses responsibility to make it easier for you to do so!
This. When God is replaced with govt, people expect it to heal the halt and the blind.
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They are a performance. It takes talent and significant athletic ability to do those things (I would add the martial arts "forms" competitions to that list), but a sport has a winner judged by objectively measureable outcomes like time to complete, scoring points, distance, etc.. (in addition to requiring talent and athletic ability.)
So: track and field- takes a lot of ability and talent, measurable outcomes. (Did you cross the line before the other runner? Winner!)- sport
Cheerleading, gymnastics, diving, et al.- takes a lot of ability and talent, no measurable outcome (Judge 6 gives you a 5.7, in his opinion. ) - not a sport
Chess, Bowling, Curling, et al.- measureable outcome, takes talent (and ability) but not athletic ability. Not a sport.
Exactly how I view it. It always cracks me up when I hear about someone wanting to make poker or freestyle yo-yoing an Olympic sport.
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The football team would love that. No arms and legs to get in the way..................chris3
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Can someone please tell me why having a girl in a wheelchair zooming around in a wheelchair yelling
ZisBoomBah
Somehow hurts/harms the other girls doing their dance routines? Why is it harmful to have a girl in a wheelchair with a bullhorn and pom poms attached do her routine then have the able bodied girls do theirs?
I do not see any harm in calling her a Cheerleader, letting her do her routine, have the other girls do theirs.
She has the ability to yell rah rah go team
- so she isn't going to take part in the whatever they call those routines those girls do, so what?
In no way does her being called a Cheerleader & zooming her scooter around doing her routine harms the other girls or prevents them from doing their routines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibfduPiqI2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POgXCOhAqdU&feature=relmfu
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Cheer leading isn't a sport, it can be a very challenging athletic activity, but I see no harm in allowing this nice young lady to assist in energizing the crowd.
In many states (if not all) cheerleading most certainly IS a sport. It has varsity status, it's complete with tryouts and interscholastic cheerleading competitions, and state championships.
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Can someone please tell me why having a girl in a wheelchair zooming around in a wheelchair yelling Somehow hurts/harms the other girls doing their dance routines? Why is it harmful to have a girl in a wheelchair with a bullhorn and pom poms attached do her routine then have the able bodied girls do theirs?
I do not see any harm in calling her a Cheerleader, letting her do her routine, have the other girls do theirs.
She has the ability to yell - so she isn't going to take part in the whatever they call those routines those girls do, so what?
In no way does her being called a Cheerleader & zooming her scooter around doing her routine harms the other girls or prevents them from doing their routines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibfduPiqI2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POgXCOhAqdU&feature=relmfu
If you want to make that decision, then go apply to run the cheer-leading program at her school. Until then, why not let the folks who DO run it, run it according to their best judgment. Nothing you've said couldn't be applied to my wife, when she tried out for cheer-leading. She didn't make it either. Maybe she's no better at cheer-leading than Mrs. fistful. Why does this young lady automatically get a spot on the team, while Mrs. fistful was kicked out?
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Last month, she and her parents, Mike and Carolyn Sullivan, asked the Aurora school board to correct what they see as “scoring errors” in her tryout evaluations this spring, saying she was given no accommodation for her disability.
So she wants accommodation. I thought they said she could do anything? I am sure there were other girls who didn't make the squad. What about accommodation for them?
I guess I say that if they want to let her do it, they can, but I don't think they should be required to do it. The only thing they should be required to do is judge her fairly. It seems to me that the family is asking to school to say "oh, we feel sorry for the disabled girl so we will let her join the squad despite not making the cut". I guess that sounds pretty cold, but I really don't think everyone else should be required/forced to allow disabled people to do whatever they want.
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I guess that's the crux of it for me, I do feel sorry for her.
Sure it isn't fair to the other girls that didn't make the team, there was a little kid with cancer who got to be superhero for a day, that wasn't fair to all the other little kids with cancer that wanted to be superhero's too-I'm still glad they did that for him.
Yup, I want special treatment for the teen girl with huge disabilities, I guess I'm some kind of statist ogre for wanting them to treat a girl with no legs/no arms a little differently then an able bodied girl.
The only harm to the Cheerleading team you guys have been able to present is that it isn't fair to able bodied girls who didn't make the team.
Life isn't always fair, just ask the girl with no legs or arms.
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The only harm to the Cheerleading team you guys have been able to present is that it isn't fair to able bodied girls who didn't make the team.
So schools have to do anything that kids or parents want, unless they can show that it would harm someone?
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So schools have to do anything that kids or parents want, unless they can show that it would harm someone?
Well, who pays their salaries?
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Well, who pays their salaries?
People with conflicting desires. Regardless, schools are run by a faculty, not by the whim of every parent or child who is involved. So, no, you can't say that a school is bound to do everything that won't harm someone.
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I see this case two ways.
If cheerleading is a "sport" in which they go to games, do cheers, and try to engage the crowd, then they can accomodate her.
If cheerleading is a "sport" where the team goes to competitions and does these gymnastic/dance routines, and all members of the team must participate, then there is no way to accomodate her.
A couple of years back when the neighbor kid was in High Screwl, he was on the Cheerleading squad. I even think that they competed against others "teams". The fact that he's about two feet tall and confined to a motorized wheelchair, because he has very brittle and corkscrew shaped long bones didn't seem to deter either him, the school or the other cheerleading team members. He could yell "RAH, RAH" with the rest of them. But maybe it was because he was a guy, and the school had about seven or twelve different cheerleading teams (for the different sports), so maybe everyone that want to cheer could.
So I agree with Chris.
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People with conflicting desires. Regardless, schools are run by a faculty, not by the whim of every parent or child who is involved. So, no, you can't say that a school is bound to do everything that won't harm someone.
The parents are free to exercise pressure - political, or economic in a private school - to alter the school program or whatnot.
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Certainly.
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You guys should watch the movie "RADIO". While I agree that there should generally be standards, there are exceptions made sometimes that pay off. I go to our local high school football games sometimes, and I'm always struck by the fact that nearly everyone in the stands totally ignores the nubile athletic cheerleaders (or maybe they just feel like old leches like I do). I would think that anyone who is able to motive the fans meets the requirements.
http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi3232694553/
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The ADA requires "reasonable accommodation" to be made in the case of a person who can perform the fundamental tasks involved in an activity if given the "reasonable accommodation." An example would be a data entry clerk in a wheel chair who applies for a job in an office where the computer desks don't have a knee opening large enough to fit the wheelchair. The fundamental tasks are reading documents and punching a keyboard to enter the information into a computer. She can do all that -- she just needs a desk with a wider knee opening. That's a reasonable accommodation.
Here, the fundamental tasks of being a cheerleader are whatever the cheerleaders do at that school. Typically, the tasks involve running and jumping and perhaps dancing in unison, as a group. This girl is not asking for a reasonable accommodation so that she can be allowed to perform the fundamental tasks. She is asking that the entire cheerleader routines -- the fundamental tasks themselves -- be changed from what they are to something she can perform.
That is NOT a "reasonable accommodation" in the eyes of the ADA.
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Once again, having a disabled girl on the team does not harm the team in compition for at the high school level.
Allowences are made in the judging.
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If you think the school faculty should give up and decide she should be allowed on the team, I don't have a problem with that. They have apparently had 3 years to do that have not done so.
I do have a problem with a court forcing the school to allow her on the team which is where they are now.
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It's a shame it had to come down to being a legal matter. She sounds like a great kid who has worked very hard to overcome her disabilities and participate in a number of activities.
Seems to me to be just another case of a school district having no sense when evaluating a single unique situation....aspirin = heroin, plastic spork = deadly weapon, etc.
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She's going to have some tough decisions on her hands. I mean when, Bob, Matt, Russel, Curt, Rod, Bud, Art, and Phil all ask her out to the prom.
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It's a shame it had to come down to being a legal matter. She sounds like a great kid who has worked very hard to overcome her disabilities and participate in a number of activities.
Seems to me to be just another case of a school district having no sense when evaluating a single unique situation....aspirin = heroin, plastic spork = deadly weapon, etc.
Exactly
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She's going to have some tough decisions on her hands. I mean when, Bob, Matt, Russel, Curt, Rod, Bud, Art, and Phil all ask her out to the prom.
I see what you did there and I'll see you in hell since I chuckled a little inside.
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Well, I guess I know who they'll toss into the air and catch...
She's going to have some tough decisions on her hands. I mean when, Bob, Matt, Russel, Curt, Rod, Bud, Art, and Phil all ask her out to the prom.
Some highly winning lines have come from this thread. Do keep it up :laugh:
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I see what you did there and I'll see you in hell since I chuckled a little inside.
I missed it, help me out.
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I missed it, help me out.
What do you call a guy with no arms and no legs-
-in the pool- Bob
-on the front porch-Matt
-hanging on a wall - Art
-in a hole- Phil
... ;/
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Two guys on a window? Curt & Rod.
In a pile of leaves? Russel.
Hanging from a branch? Bud.
Etc. etc. etc.
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those jokes are older than my great grandmothers training bra
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And yet Jocassee didn't know them ???
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those jokes are older than my great grandmothers training bra
You got a tough great-grandma..... http://www.wired.com/underwire/2011/06/female-armor/ (http://www.wired.com/underwire/2011/06/female-armor/)
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And yet Jocassee didn't know them ???
He's a South African transplant, remember?
I think over there it's all "lion and zebra with no paws/hoof jokes" or something. ???
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He's a South African transplant, remember?
I think over there it's all "lion and zebra with no paws/hoof jokes" or something. ???
What do you call a cow with no legs?
Ground Beef.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH22VHpqBOg
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I don't know how she can possibly sue, she doesn't have a leg to stand on.
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how do you take a dog with no legs for a walk? ... you don't-you take him for a drag.
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I don't know how she can possibly sue, she doesn't have a leg to stand on.
:facepalm:
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I heard the cheerleading coach offered the girl a position as the manager/watergirl, and let her give the squad a hand but...
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Can we go back to bad/old jokes? Please :facepalm:
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Can we go back to bad/old jokes? Please :facepalm:
Hey, at least YOU CAN :facepalm:
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Hey, at least YOU CAN :facepalm:
Where you beaten often as a child?
I hope so...
:P
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Can we go back to bad/old jokes? Please :facepalm:
I agree....these jokes would be deserving of a major facepalm.....that is, if she had palms....
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Joe goes to pick up his blind date at her house and when he gets there he finds out she has no arms and no legs. He's a good sport, so he picks her up, puts her in his car, and takes her to a movie. When the movie's over, he picks her up again and puts her back in the car.
She says, "Do you have any rope in the car?"
He says, "Rope? Why yes, I have some rope."
She says, "Do you know that big old oak with the real low limb down the dark corner of the park?"
Joe says, "Yeah."
She says, "Why don't you take us there?"
When they get there, she has Joe get out the rope, undress her, and then she gives him explicit instructions how to use the rope to suspend her from the limb. And then, they proceed to have the wildest sex that Joe has ever had. When they're done, Joe drives her home, carries her inside, and puts her on the living room couch.
As he's leaving, her father grabs him by the arm and says, "Here, son," and goes to hand Joe a hundred dollars.
Joe says, "I can't take that, sir."
Her father says, "Please, son, take the money."
Joe says, "I can't, sir. You see ... I had sex with your daughter."
Her father says, "Of course you did. But at least you didn't leave her hanging from that damn tree!"