Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Balog on July 25, 2011, 07:38:29 PM
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This is getting ridiculous. The crap tastic CAI imports are barely less than a brand new low end AR, and decent examples are as much as mid-range AR's. What happened to my cheap Commie gun? :mad:
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This is getting ridiculous. The crap tastic CAI imports are barely less than a brand new low end AR, and decent examples are as much as mid-range AR's. What happened to my cheap Commie gun? :mad:
TIKIWIKI.
Gabe Suarez.
Teh Revolooshun.
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They were cheap because they were "Surplus" not that the surplus has run out, not as many are getting made/imported as before.
Also the AR now seems to rifle of choice for all the various flavors of tactical type sport shooting. And even farking Mossberg is coming out with one.
Supply & Demand, where the lines cross = price.
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Is this store pricing?
There's still lots of AK options out there for under $500. Just go somewhere like Atlantic Firearms and check them out. Not as many as there used to be, but there's still several options.
There are indeed many more AK's above $500, but that's due to the requirements of new barrels, parts-kits drying up, and the weak dollar. Also, some of the four-figure ones are from choice Bulgarian or Yugoslavian builders that have very good fit/finish. Or are actual Arsenal USA built which are actually built here in Nevada. And Atlantic and others also carry AK's re-worked or built up by other premium builders/AK-smiths, Like Red Jacket Firearms. (From the somewhat herp-derp "Sons of Guns" show on cable TV)
And K-Var/Arsenal USA has never been shy about their pricing.
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I was talking about the local used market akshully. Between shipping, ffl transfer fees, and the asinine WA state sales tax on guns bought out of state even the just under $400 Saigas are well over $500 by the time I can get them.
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Yeesh! I grabbed a 5.45 Saiga for a friend. Total, after shipping and FFL fee, was still only ~$350. I'm sorry to hear that AKs are so expensive for you, they're a real joy.
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Yeesh! I grabbed a 5.45 Saiga for a friend. Total, after shipping and FFL fee, was still only ~$350. I'm sorry to hear that AKs are so expensive for you, they're a real joy.
Yeah, it's odd. I did see a minty Arsenal with a bunch of mags and a couple cases of ammo for like $800 locally, but I didn't see it soon enough. :( Still kicking myself for missing it.
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What are the laws regarding buying a rifle in person, in a state that I am not a resident of? If I was on a roadtrip in Idaho or Montana or something and went to a gun show, would I legally be able to buy a rifle?
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From the ATF FAQ Page:
Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#out-of-state-firearm (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#out-of-state-firearm)
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What are the laws regarding buying a rifle in person, in a state that I am not a resident of? If I was on a roadtrip in Idaho or Montana or something and went to a gun show, would I legally be able to buy a rifle?
In short, you can do it from a dealer but not an individual.
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Paid any attention to the price of SKS's recently? These are still surplus, but seem to be going for $300 - $400. :O
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Thanks for the referrences guys. Might have to start planning a vacation to some place with better gun prices... ;)
Out of curiousity, would a private sale done through a dealer as a consignment be legal? I realize it'd increase the price by %x for the dealer's commission, bt still might be worth it.
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Yes, it would be legal to buy a gun in a neighboring state if the transfer goes through an FFL holder.
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"licensee’s premises"
"In short, you can do it from a dealer but not an individual."
Is a gun show table his "premises?"
Are there any "pulled out of their hat" rules or definitions on that?
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I wonder if a gunsmith who does conversion work would order one at their (presumably) discounted price, do the conversion for me, then sell it to me for cost+shipping+conversion fee? Is that a standard practice, or at least something I might talk a friendly smith into doing?
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There's AK's, then there's AK's. Romanian, Yugo, Russian, Saiga, CAI-rebuilds...
Same thing for AR's.
Good AK's go for about the same price point as new bottom-bucket AR's. Dealer-special lowers (plum crazy, cavalry arms, inexpensive aluminum offerings) and a lowest-tier parts kit, coupled with an inexpensive upper will get you out to the range for $600 + cost of mags. Or you can let Century rebuild a 1:12 twist Colt/FN upper onto a new bottom-end lower for $630 @ J&G.
But AK's can still be found for less than that bucket-o-parts lowest common denominator AR.
J&G is still selling Romanian WASR's for $400 to $450 depending on quality, or SKS's for as low as $270.
You ought to head down here, Balog. Come with a couple grand, head to J&G, pick up a new AK or 3, and a few cases of ammo. Get yourself on that nice, shiny ATF "watch list" they're mocking up for the 4 border States. >:D
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When I got back from Iraq I was still legally an AZ resident. Made a road trip to JG with some of that deployment money. Good times. :)
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When I got back from Iraq I was still legally an AZ resident. Made a road trip to JG with some of that deployment money. Good times. :)
Come on down.
I need a Smith model 64 surplus to go with my 65, and I can play at my Ed McGivern with a pair of K-frames. =D We'll make a road trip up there, then find a nice sandy hole to act as a backstop for some shooting.
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Come on down.
I need a Smith model 64 surplus to go with my 65, and I can play at my Ed McGivern with a pair of K-frames. =D We'll make a road trip up there, then find a nice sandy hole to act as a backstop for some shooting.
I've been avoiding AZ like the plague because, frankly, I don't want to see my biological family and they all live there. Still, you make a convincing argument...
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"licensee’s premises"
"In short, you can do it from a dealer but not an individual."
Is a gun show table his "premises?"
Are there any "pulled out of their hat" rules or definitions on that?
Yikes! Glad I never went to an out-of-state gun show. Although i would hope the dealer would know. . .
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I wonder if a gunsmith who does conversion work would order one at their (presumably) discounted price, do the conversion for me, then sell it to me for cost+shipping+conversion fee? Is that a standard practice, or at least something I might talk a friendly smith into doing?
Emailed a local smith about this, haven't heard back. :/
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You are in WA, IIRC. Why not join the Washington Arms Collectors? A good show every month in Puyallup and one in Monroe also. Lots of guns, some junk, some really nice- like a .275 H+H double rifle.....finding an AK would be no problem, even if you don't find the right one it is a lot of fun looking!
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I probably should. My last few gun show experiences have been heavy on the junk and dealers selling for more than their brick and mortar location, and light on anything decent. Might be worth a try though.
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I'm not clear on the thread above, what kind of "conversion" are you looking to have done?
Do you mean a Saiga?
If you're looking at a Saiga as a low cost path to a quality AK, and don't care about the gas block, FSB, and fore end matching a proper military AK, and just want a pistol grip and AK magazines, a conversion is dirt easy, and can be done competently with just a hand drill, a dremel, or a file and hacksaw.
My S-12 conversion was literally a 3-4 hour project. Not counting time to go back and do paint touch-up, and throw some red Loctite on the various screws and bolts once I was satisfied with it's function.
I spent more time wrestling with the fire control parts than I did with the cutting and drilling. And had I gone on YouTube and figured out the tricks to getting the Saiga bolt-hold-open retainer spring in, it would have been more like a two hour project. =D
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Yep, Saiga that is 922r compliant, pistol gripped, and accepts normal AK mags. I was hoping the lower ffl price and lack of transfer fees would off set the conversion fee. P'raps not though...
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Yep, Saiga that is 922r compliant, pistol gripped, and accepts normal AK mags. I was hoping the lower ffl price and lack of transfer fees would off set the conversion fee. P'raps not though...
It's definitely a smith job if you want the gas block and FSB done to AKM/AK-74 spec, that takes a hydraulic shop press and some plates, blocks, and jigs to "do it right".
However, if you do go DIY route, Carolina Shooter's Supply has GREAT parts and conversion packages. http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-CONVERSION-KITS-cln-SAIGA-223%2C-5.45%2C-7.62%2C-308/Categories
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It's definitely a smith job if you want the gas block and FSB done to AKM/AK-74 spec, that takes a hydraulic shop press and some plates, blocks, and jigs to "do it right".
However, if you do go DIY route, Carolina Shooter's Supply has GREAT parts and conversion packages. http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-CONVERSION-KITS-cln-SAIGA-223%2C-5.45%2C-7.62%2C-308/Categories
Yeah, I actually like the Saiga forend and fsb etc. I was just thinking it might be a way to save a bit, with the conversion fee standing in place of the usual retail markup.
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I think a Saiga ordered from one of the online retailers, like Atlantic, http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct796.aspx (you want 5.45 for the cheap ammo, right?), send it to an inexpensive Kitchen Table FFL in your area (about $25) And a conversion kit from Carolina Shooter's Supply, and some sweat equity will be the fastest and cheapest way to do this.
A little checking around tells me most Saiga conversion smiths seem to charge around $500 for a conversion, parts and labor. Way above even the local "rape prices" shop's markup. So if the conversion smith will accept direct-shipping of the rifle, then transfer to you, you're still probably losing at least $300 by not doing it yourself, IMO.
I would just go with a kit from CSS like this one, http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-892/Saiga-Rifle-Conversion-Kit/Detail, that's $170, maybe add in the ACE folding block for $60-80, depending on the one you want.
So that's about:
$380 for a base Saiga.
$25 shipping (ballpark, probably cheaper, rifles can go UPS ground)
$25 for a good FFL x-fer.
$170 for the CSS conversion kit.
$60 for a folding stock hinge. (why not? =D )
So you're looking at $660 all said and done.
I don't think you'll find anyone you'd trust willing to do a Saiga conversion for only $280, parts included.
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You make a persuasive argument AJ. Anything else you'd recommend swapping out on a Saiga when doing the conversion?
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You make a persuasive argument AJ. Anything else you'd recommend swapping out on a Saiga when doing the conversion?
Maybe do something with the muzzle, getting a '74 style brake on there. Although, my Saiga conversion was the 12ga, and that's a different animal. The muzzle is already threaded for chokes etc.
The other thing you might need is a bullet guide, but I'd wait and see if you really needed it. The bullet guide is just a shelf that noses the round up to make sure it's pointing into the chamber as it feeds. A Saiga just has the rear edge of the trunnion there instead, because the low-cap Saiga mags nose the rounds up enough to not need a standard AK/AKM bullet guide shelf in there.
Many folks with 5.45 Saigas never need them, because the long pointy ogive of the 5.45 bullet means it's already nosing into the chamber by the time the bullet or the case might need to scoot over the guide shelf/ramp to tip it up a bit more.
It's $20 kit, drill bit, tap, screw and bullet guide/shelf included. You supply the hi-temp red Loctite. Seems like 50% of the folks with Saiga 5.45 conversions never needed them. About 45% have 1 failure every 30 rounds or so. About 5% have more failures than that.
There are two kinds of Saiga 5.45 rear trunnions though, one is flat right before the chamber, the other has a shallow curve to it. You just need to be sure you're getting the right one. http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-604/Saiga-5.45-Bullet-Guide/Detail -OR- http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-1016/5.45x39-round-bullet-guide/Detail
The rounded trunnion guide has a single mild scoop to it to nose the bullets up from either left or right feed in the mag. The flat one has two curved scoops on it's corners to catch the bullets from the left and right feed positions.
If you did need a bullet guide, that would be the hardest step IMO. Mainly because you'd need to be sure you got the pilot hole into the trunnion shelf started in exactly the right place. (dry fit the bullet guide, and use the hole to mark it) and tapping the very tough steel of the trunnion takes patience. There's no such thing as too much oil, and you need to go slow, no more than 1/4 turn, before backing off to clear the chips of the cut threads. Any further, and you risk snapping off the tap, and if you do, then it's gunsmith time... =|
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Oops, didn't notice that before. I'm getting the 7.62 not 5.45. If I wanted a rifle firing a ~.22 round I'd get an AR :) honestly if the Sig 556r wasn't so much more spendy I'd go with that. I just want something in 7.62x39 that functions reliably and doesn't need weird proprietary mags.
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Oh, then I think you have to get the bullet guide, or AK mags won't lock in place.
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Oh, then I think you have to get the bullet guide, or AK mags won't lock in place.
Thanks. :)
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Hmm, so I can get a totally un-converted Saiga for about $40-50 less than I can get one of these. http://www.onpointfirearms.com/saiga/Saiga_Fact_Sheet.pdf
Thoughts? I'm not looking to do an accurate conversion. I'll probably either keep the standard handguard and screw a bit of rail onto it, or just replace the forend with a railed model. I don't really care about the non-standard gas block etc as long as it functions right. Having a US made trigger assembly isn't a bad deal though.
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Hmm, so I can get a totally un-converted Saiga for about $40-50 less than I can get one of these. http://www.onpointfirearms.com/saiga/Saiga_Fact_Sheet.pdf
Thoughts? I'm not looking to do an accurate conversion. I'll probably either keep the standard handguard and screw a bit of rail onto it, or just replace the forend with a railed model. I don't really care about the non-standard gas block etc as long as it functions right. Having a US made trigger assembly isn't a bad deal though.
What they've done there is the "hard stuff" for the home converter to do for himself. Namely the fore-end, the gas block, and the threadded AKM/AK74 style muzzle break. Changing any of that stuff yourself requires the use of a 12 ton hydraulic shop press from Harbor Freight ($100 on up). Not to mention the appropriate heavy steel support plates and jigs, which you might find as a rental or a "pass around" on one of the various DIY AK boards.
As someone who just re-did a FSB tower on a SAR2 with hand tools, I can tell you that it's not for the faint of heart. The idea of changing out the gas block or handgaurd retainers, and getting it all back on right, makes me break out in a sweat.
If it really is only $50 more than an unconverted Saigas you've been pricing, and all you need to do is dremel out the trigger extension and the cover plate, add a trigger guard, move it forward into the FCG, put on a pistol grip and regular AK stock or folder of some sort, and add a bullet guide, then yeah, that's worth it. Even if you're not concerned about the correctness. Their claim that it's an additonal $450 value of parts and work is stretched, but only a little. It is a couple hundred bucks of work if sent to a smith.
So now you've got a completely proper Russian Izhmash AKM, rather than just a Saiga converted on the rear end.
Dammit... now you've got me thinking about selling my WASR to buy one of these... :laugh: