Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on August 29, 2011, 03:19:21 AM
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I went to the "Arizona Mills" mall today. This mall is at the juncture of US-60 and I-10, on the south corner of Phoenix and bordering Tempe, Chandler and a wonderful little fecalpit known as Guadalupe.
Guadalupe is "little Mexico." Every store name is in spanish, tortilleria, peluqueria, panaderia, and so on. Chickens roam the streets.
"The Mills" mall was supposed to be an economic boost to the area. I dunno. I almost never go there. Cruddy little overpriced outlet mall, where I watch the patrons out the corner of my eye due to excessive bling or flat-brimmed baseball caps or low ride shorts.
Why was I there, then? Why expose myself to this environment when I know it's bad?
I had a friend that wanted to go to the Sea Life Aquarium that is a store in the mall. A little micro-zoo. Neat concept. So, we went.
After seeing this little pocket-sized Sea World, we left and headed out to the parking lot.
A pair of 14? 15? 16? year old mexican kids are loitering around a white two door sedan with out of State plates (CO) and a "wounded veteran" window decal. One of them is fiddling with a key in the driver's side lock, trying to turn it but the lock isn't giving. I walk past initially (with a female friend and didn't want to expose her to any potential danger), but guilt got the better of me for not doing anything.
I stopped, turned around and glared at the kid next to the driver's door, fishing for a challenge or waiting for him to demonstrate legitimacy by opening the door by an obviously valid technique. He rises to the bait with a string of "M-ther F-cker what you looking at?" invective. I respond in kind and start walking agressively towards him, throwing the same language back at him loudly to deliberately startle people around me and get them to summon mall security or otherwise pay attention. No time to divert attention to female friend and instruct her to call police/security/start videotaping/whatever.
I stop about 30 feet away from the pair, hand on my PF-9 in my pocket just in case they aggressively came my way, and talked a bit more, challenging the kids to open the door legitimately and quickly, or else get stepping RFN. Again, very loud, with lots of confrontational language to gain as much attention from other parking lot folks as possible.
After about 15-30 seconds of debate punctuated by various 4-letter derivatives on both sides of the argument, they started walking away. When they were about 50 feet away, I fish out my cell phone and start following them, trying to figure out how to get my camera/video working while power-walking at their pace. They break into a run, so I run after them for about 100 yards.
Between the combination of:
1. It wasn't my car,
2. They didn't get anything anyways,
3. I couldn't get my videocam working while running,
4. What was I going to do if I actually caught them anyways,
I ended up stopping after about 100 yards of chase, and went back to accompany my friend. We found mall security driving around in a little jeep liberty and gave them descriptions of everything.
Errors (IMO)?
1. I should have shouted "car thieves!" while chasing the kids. One black gentleman later volunteered himself to further ID the kids to the security guard, and said he might have helped to stop the kids or give chase... but he had no idea why some big white guy was chasing a pair of mexican teenagers and chose not to get involved.
2. The chase. Mixed feelings on this. Wholeheartedly believe in scaring the mierda out of them. I didn't see any bulges or anywhere for them to conceal guns when approaching. I had no intention of getting closer than 25 feet to them... no fantasies of tackling them or anything. I was hoping to attract attention and maybe have a security guard notice it, then have them coordinate an arrest with their resources. Were it my car... I'd have kept it up.
3. Friend needs better reflexes to know to back me up while I have their attention with the initial confrontation, to at a minimum, video record the whole exchange.
4. I need to know my stoopid Android phone better, and how to start video recording ASAP while focused on other things around me.
5. I never threatened, but the language I used could have escalated things. Most thieves rely upon inattentiveness. If that doesn't work, they try to bully people into looking away... which is what these kids did once I let them know I was watching. If they were the type to escalate to my escalation, this could have gone another way. But it still seemed like the right thing to do.
APS' thoughts?
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Glad it worked out OK....but I'm not sure that provoking a confrontation like that would work in your favor. There's an outside possibility that, if the situation went to guns, that you'd be pegged as the one who started the fight.
Best bet would have been to call 911 and observe. Let them start the fight....then protect yourself as necessary.
I forget that my Blackberry has the video feature, too...I need to get more familiar with it....
Again, glad it worked out well for you....
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nice job. cars still there no one got hurt.
i set up video and audio recording as shortcuts on my phone more for employment related nonsense but they have proven right handy. especially since i can send the video home. just in case
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Thanks for giving a damn and doing something about it. I don't insist on perfect execution.
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I'm with you, right up to chasing them. While seeing them caught would bring a bit of satisfaction, you expose yourself to a tactical disadvantage. When's the last time you ran a 100 yard sprint, drew your weapon, and put rounds on target? Against multiple attackers?
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Thanks for giving a damn and doing something about it. I don't insist on perfect execution.
+100
I'm with you, right up to chasing them. While seeing them caught would bring a bit of satisfaction, you expose yourself to a tactical disadvantage. When's the last time you ran a 100 yard sprint, drew your weapon, and put rounds on target? Against multiple attackers?
An excellent consideration and one that I and many of us would probably have to worry about, but AZ is probably in better shape than most of us on this board.
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The only real mistake I see is going to a freaking mall in the first place. =D
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And just like the newspaper article I linked to the other day, if something had gone wrong, you could be facing murder or manslaughter charges for a property crime. And not even for your property.
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I'm glad you posted this AZ. It gives us all a chance to think about what we'd do in similar circumstances. I agree that your friend should have backed you up better and at least thought to video it. But would I have thought of pulling out my phone and starting the camera if I'd been with you? I probably wouldn't have. Which means I need to work on making that an active part of my "what if" scenarios.
As to second guessing yourself now, that's a good thing too, to some degree. Going over what you woulda, coulda, shoulda done differently will better prepare you if find yourself in another tense situation in the future.
I have to ask you this though. If you hadn't given chase, do you think there's a chance they might have turned around and come back? Hypothetical question, no response required. Just saying that sometimes a show of determination can make the difference too.
Good job.
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And just like the newspaper article I linked to the other day, if something had gone wrong, you could be facing murder or manslaughter charges for a property crime. And not even for your property.
Yet another symptom of the moral rot at the core of our nation.
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I have to ask you this though. If you hadn't given chase, do you think there's a chance they might have turned around and come back? Hypothetical question, no response required. Just saying that sometimes a show of determination can make the difference too.
Good job.
I think I put a hint of fear of repercussions into them, which probably derailed their plans to joyride or steal car stereos/ipods/etc from cars for the rest of the afternoon. If I hadn't chased, they probably would have gone a couple hundred yards away elsewhere in the mall parking lot and started all over again.
When I gave up the chase and turned around to rejoin my friend, that black gentleman I mentioned earlier came up to me and mentioned he saw the kids get into a white subaru and take off, so maybe they left for the day. Maybe the chase did save someone else from having a car looted or stolen.
But, it's all conjecture and maybes. I'll never know.
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Yet another symptom of the moral rot at the core of our nation.
I agree completely, but I think we all have to be very cautious in taking actions that could be seen as instigating something that ends in the death of someone. Especially over a property crime, where the legal or moral justification to use deadly force may just not be there.
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Personally, I wouldn't have got involved.
Too much to risk, nothing to gain. Call the cops and let them deal with it - they are paid for it and enjoy legal protection from repurcusions.
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If I'd been in the same situation, I would not engaged in even a verbal confrontation, but would have moved to a vantage point where I could watch them without them spotting me. Then I would have called 911 and reported what I was seeing (assuming they weren't just having trouble getting into their own vehicle).
I'm always mindful of the possibility of a small thing escalating to drawing and mabye/maybe not pulling the trigger, with that $50K civil suit attorney fee that might follow.
That said, I've done the same thing (chase crooks) years back, only to catch up to them and then think to myself, "OK, now what? Does he have a gun?"
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I agree completely, but I think we all have to be very cautious in taking actions that could be seen as instigating something that ends in the death of someone. Especially over a property crime, where the legal or moral justification to use deadly force may just not be there.
True, things always have the possibility of going tango uniform.
Frankly, I would only worry about the possibility that the person intervening to stop the crime might come to harm. I have next to zero sympathy for burglars who get the horns after playing with the bull.
Given I have a wife & minor children, I would have taken Monkeyleg's route, sending wife & kiddos ahead to the automobile, inside, wherever. Jumping out of planes to kill Uncle Sam's enemies & break their stuff and dispersing & running down of sawed-off crooks is a single man's game in the Big City. May be a different story closer to home or out in the sticks, where the threat is nearer and more worth the risk to intervene.
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Personally, I wouldn't have got involved.
Too much to risk, nothing to gain. Call the cops and let them deal with it - they are paid for it and enjoy legal protection from repurcusions.
Same here, I'd hate it, but there it is. I'm not interested in risking my life, finances, and freedom for somebody else's property. It is a symptom of the nation's moral rot, but I'm not volunteering to be a martyr in changing it. If it were a person in trouble, different story.
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I agree completely, but I think we all have to be very cautious in taking actions that could be seen as instigating something that ends in the death of someone. Especially over a property crime, where the legal or moral justification to use deadly force may just not be there.
If you are going to draw your weapon in such a situation, you need to be able to recognize a distinctive threat to your life/health. If you confront them or yell at them and they come after you or pull out weapons, I'd say you were justified. That assumes you are not the aggressor. That is the main reason I think you should have called them car thieves loudly. The other witness is a good example. If you had called them car thieves right off and repeated it, he might have understood your intent right off. Just my hindsight 2 cents.
I don't have an issue with confronting criminals if you feel you should, but be certain to NOT threaten deadly force (displaying a weapon) without a distinct threat to you or someone else.
I also think you should have pulled out your phone and set it to recording video/pictures before you even said anything. That would further back you up if things escalated. You could state you were only trying to be a good witness and they attacked you or something along those lines.
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Thanks for giving a damn and doing something about it. I don't insist on perfect execution.
And just like the newspaper article I linked to the other day, if something had gone wrong, you could be facing murder or manslaughter charges for a property crime. And not even for your property.
AZR is a hero. A stupid hero, but that's more an indictment on society rather than him.
The problem with calling the police and being a good witness is the police don't care about property crimes. Have you tried filing a report lately for theft or vandalism? How'd that go for ya?
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Same here, I'd hate it, but there it is. I'm not interested in risking my life, finances, and freedom for somebody else's property. It is a symptom of the nation's moral rot, but I'm not volunteering to be a martyr in changing it. If it were a person in trouble, different story.
Doesn't that make us a symptom of the moral rot, too?
I don't fault someone for not intervening. My first responsibility is to my family and my person.
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depends where you live. i had a bike stolen in town i live 10 miles out. when i called to report crime they sent city cop to my house to take report and got my bike back 3 days later
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Doesn't that make us a symptom of the moral rot, too?
I don't fault someone for not intervening. My first responsibility is to my family and my person.
As you mention in another thread, Loser Pays in civil suits would go a long ways towards changing that. Or, no civil trial allowed if no criminal charges are filed.. that sort of thing.
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As to videotaping the incident, remember that the video can be used against them or you, even if you or yours are the one's doing the recording. Imagine the jury viewing video of a full grown adult AZR chasing 3 scared teenagers while yelling at them and using vile, disgusting language. How could they be expected to continue turning their lives around after being traumatized like that? ;/
Consider also that the whole phone will be likely taken as evidence. Is there anything on it other than the video that you don't want someone else to have access to?
DD
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I'd say in that case, no mention of the vid is made until your attorney has reviewed it. If he feels it's more hindrance than help, it disappears.
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I'd say in that case, no mention of the vid is made until your attorney has reviewed it. If he feels it's more hindrance than help, it disappears.
you think like i do. i'm gonna keep my eye on you...
and not turn my back >:D
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i'm gonna keep my eye on you...
and not turn my back
From what I've observed the last few weeks, I don't think that not turning your back would necessarily protect you. I think Mrs. Smith is as sneaky as the rest of us. ;)
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I'd say in that case, no mention of the vid is made until your attorney has reviewed it. If he feels it's more hindrance than help, it disappears.
Agreed. To do that though, means that the recording device needs to be out of sight at a minimum when teh authoritahs show up. And there needs to be nobody to tell them that you were recording it. And nobody on the scene who ALSO recorded it and has you or your friend shown on the video recording when you said you didn't. There was a reported incident last week of a young girl being snatched off of the sidewalk by 4 guys in a car right in front of my house in our quiet little neighborhood. There was a small army of cops going door-to-door looking for witnesses and directly asking if we had any cameras that might have recorded the incident. The cops know about cell cameras. I think it's now normal procedure to ask if a recording exists.
DD
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Good job.
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Yes, but I can do the innocent look and "I tried officer but I couldn't get it to work. I barely know how to make calls on this thing much less take pictures with it."
And if it does later turn up that I have video, well, a) show me the law that says I have to tell the truth to a cop if I haven't been mirandized, and b) "Oh, look what I found! Didn't realize I'd actually gotten it to work. Isn't that handy?"
CS&D and Monkeyleg - Told you I felt very comfortable around here. >:D
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Destroying evidence that you know is relevant to a case is a serious crime. You can expect to be jailed (and facing an unhappy jury in relation to the event itself) should you ever knowingly delete a tape of a shooting.
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Soooo.....you sort of splilled the beans on them.
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If things had gone rodeo the three choir boys could have destroyed the phone once they realized they were being recorded. Now you're back to your word, their word, and unreliable eye witnesses.
For Android, and I bet other platforms have a client, Ustream has an app that will start transmitting data back to their servers as soon as the recording starts. Works pretty good based on my very limited testing.
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What exact Ustream app exactly? I installed it, and I'm not clear on what it's doing, or how it's supposed to work. I expected a camcorder app, or maybe it's crashing.