Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Balog on September 23, 2011, 01:32:21 PM
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http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/09/23/french-court-fines-women-for-wearing-face-veils/?mod=google_news_blog
I had always heard this as a ban solely on the niqab and burqua, interesting to see it addresses all facial covering in public.
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Never did like the French, especially when they banned English words several years ago.
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This'll certainly make Halloween more interesting....
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Meh...
The libertarian in me is disgusted.
The libertarianism-is-not-a-cultural-suicide-pact, and pro-Western Civ side of me is in lukewarm agreement, or maybe just feeling some respect for France showing some sort of balls as taking a stand against islamification. Even if it probably won't do any good.
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France: now not entirely different from the grounds of Al-Azhar Mosque?
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what about beards and long hair? Are full-face helmets allowed?
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Maybe they're tired of their public streets being co-opted as outdoors mosques?
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I thought that all this hubbub that's rubbing people the wrong way wasn't even really such a huge deal?
Doesn't it affect only a minute percentage of France's population?
I wonder what the french translation for "HURR DURRRRR" is/
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Only those who use streets. Not to worry, Islam is your friend.
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Only those who use streets. Not to worry, Islam is your friend.
Just looked it up. French Interior ministry says this will probably affect about 2,000 women.
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Meh...
The libertarian in me is disgusted.
The libertarianism-is-not-a-cultural-suicide-pact, and pro-Western Civ side of me is in lukewarm agreement, or maybe just feeling some respect for France showing some sort of balls as taking a stand against islamification. Even if it probably won't do any good.
So if some women are being forced/intimidated into wear head gear (but not by the govt), where does libertarianism stand on that?
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This isn't about burqas or occupied streets, it's about a liberal culture that is starting to feel mortally endangered by its own folly.
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How does a woman wearing a headscarf endanger liberty???
This law affected everyone in France - they now have their government telling them which displays of religion they can wear on their own bodies. A burqa ban is no different from banning crosses, Jesus t shirts, or yarmulkes.
The idea that Muslims pose any threat to "western liberty" whatever is a testament to our inability to think rationally whenever race is on the table. That goes for conservatives as well leftists.
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It's not about race, it's about unreason.
Muslims pose a threat to liberty when they attain critical mass in a culture and begin imposing their values. Our concept of individual liberty is antithetical to Islam's basic principles.
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It's not about race, it's about unreason.
Muslims pose a threat to liberty when they attain critical mass in a culture and begin imposing their values. Our concept of individual liberty is antithetical to Islam's basic principles.
Who exactly is the "our" in there? There are no muslim French??? And why would it be ok to impose your values on them, which is what happened here?
Can anyone not see the Orwellian irony in limiting religious freedom under the banner of protecting liberty?
"to preserve religious freedom, we have to ban some religions comrades!"
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Just looked it up. French Interior ministry says this will probably affect about 2,000 women.
But Pharma! Tee-vee told me there are millions of burka-clad Muslims set to devour the French Republic!
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http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/09/23/french-court-fines-women-for-wearing-face-veils/?mod=google_news_blog
I had always heard this as a ban solely on the niqab and burqua, interesting to see it addresses all facial covering in public.
Which seems to somewhat counter the religious freedom issues. I kinda wonder how cold it gets in France, though.
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But Pharma! Tee-vee told me there are millions of burka-clad Muslims set to devour the French Republic!
Everyone knows that if they bite you you become infected!
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Who exactly is the "our" in there? There are no muslim French??? And why would it be ok to impose your values on them, which is what happened here?
Can anyone not see the Orwellian irony in limiting religious freedom under the banner of protecting liberty?
"to preserve religious freedom, we have to ban some religions comrades!"
Because their "freedom" necessitates your lack of freedom. As if you didn't already know.
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Because their "freedom" necessitates your lack of freedom. As if you didn't already know.
Seems to me this law, while targeting eeevul muslims, actually detracts from everyone's freedom. Just because you don't wear a regulated headcovering doesn't mean you might not want to in the future. Just like even though I don't currently own a suppressor doesn't mean the suppressor laws don't affect me negatively.
Chris
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As I said...it's not about burqas or blocked streets, those are just the outward signs of the inner national anxiety.
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As I said...it's not about burqas or blocked streets, those are just the outward signs of the inner national anxiety.
This might very well be true, I know next to nothing about France's internal issues. (Didn't we have a french guy on here?)
But I will point out that historically "National Anxiety" almost never leads to good laws, or liberty.
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Of course, I mean France's (national anxiety), not ours.
You're right. Anything springing from fear or anxiety or ignorance or evil intent is likely to produce bad social consequences. My point is that the French have taken romanticism, confusion, and guilt and suffused it into immigration policies that are now eating away at the very heart of their society and culture. What does it mean to be French? This is what more and more French are asking, although they may well be asking it a bit too late.
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But Pharma! Tee-vee told me there are millions of burka-clad Muslims set to devour the French Republic!
Actually I believe the point is to prevent the further radicalization of the millions of Muslim immigrants. Considering that France still remembers the invasion of Europe during Islam's expansion it's rather understandable...
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Because their "freedom" necessitates your lack of freedom. As if you didn't already know.
I must have skipped the part where Muslims were a monolithical cultural block with the only difference between radical muslims and regular muslims being one of degree during my History of Islam class.
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Yes, we all know that Muslims, in whatever part of the islamic spectrum, are synonymous with liberty. I keep forgetting, perhaps because they give me so much evidence to the contrary on a daily basis.
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Isn't it something like a mere 2% that equates to the critical population mass necessary to tip things towards favoring sharia law at least within the muslim community? And at about 10% that they start advocating for imposing sharia on the rest of the population?
As I understand this tempest in a French teacup it is based on preventing the Islamification of the French culture. But then these are the folks who refuse to accept foreign words into their language and wind up with some constructions that make the German jawbreaking, gargling stringing together of noun/adjective/adverb look like verbal shorthand.
Personally, other than some cheeses I am of the opinion that French culture died several generations ago. Even their grapes are American.
stay safe.
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Isn't it something like a mere 2% that equates to the critical population mass necessary to tip things towards favoring sharia law at least within the muslim community? And at about 10% that they start advocating for imposing sharia on the rest of the population?
I have never heard that.
Not doubting you, but where do those numbers come from? I'm interested in how you would even measure that?
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I have never heard that.
Not doubting you, but where do those numbers come from? I'm interested in how you would even measure that?
http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=140473
http://obama-ultimablogspotcom.blogspot.com/2010/08/tipping-point-population-that-is-2.html
http://muslimmatters.org/2007/06/19/tipping-point-how-little-things-can-make-a-big-difference/
http://www.theblogmocracy.com/2011/07/29/why-muslim-immigration-is-stealth-jihad/
I make no claim that any of these sources is scientifically accurate, let alone rational. However you asked where the notion comes from and these are but a few examples.
Sorry if your head hurts after perusing any of the writings.
stay safe.
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These are the sorts of theories that demand a Godwin. Measuring the Percentage of a race and all
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Isn't it something like a mere 2% that equates to the critical population mass necessary to tip things towards favoring sharia law at least within the muslim community? And at about 10% that they start advocating for imposing sharia on the rest of the population?
As I understand this tempest in a French teacup it is based on preventing the Islamification of the French culture. But then these are the folks who refuse to accept foreign words into their language and wind up with some constructions that make the German jawbreaking, gargling stringing together of noun/adjective/adverb look like verbal shorthand.
Personally, other than some cheeses I am of the opinion that French culture died several generations ago. Even their grapes are American.
stay safe.
I'm interested to see you dismiss French culture so easily. I can't do that, especially when it's likely to be accompanied by British culture and eventually German and Italian as well.
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I'm interested to see you dismiss French culture so easily. I can't do that, especially when it's likely to be accompanied by British culture and eventually German and Italian as well.
OK, the Germans still maintain most of the hard work/quality product stuff, even if they have lost quite a bit of the efficiency and social order stuff. As for (f)GB and Italy - anything I say would be a greater insult than the reality, which if you think about it is hard to do. Next thing I know you'll be holding up Spain, Greece, and Ireland as paragons of cultural wonderfulness. I would agree with you that they used to be, but strongly suggest that they have lost most of what they used to be. And we here in America are no better than the rest of them, except possibly if you want to split hairs on the degree of spiraling in achieved to date.
Disagreeing with someone's point of view/values is offensive. There is just no way around that. Political Correctness seeks to eliminate all offensiveness, which means it seeks to eliminate all disagreement. THe problem is that I do not agree with the point of view/values that the PC crowd seeks to establish as the sole survivor in the contest of thoughts.
stay safe.
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They aren't what they used to be, those Euros, but we wouldn't have gotten here without them. You say French culture died several generations ago. And Muslim culture, which you see no problem replacing French...?
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Seriously, longeyes; do you see France's gov't telling 2,000 women what they can wear as some sort of victory for the light side of the force?
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They aren't what they used to be, those Euros, but we wouldn't have gotten here without them. You say French culture died several generations ago. And Muslim culture, which you see no problem replacing French...?
If French culture may only be sustained by violations of religious and personal liberty, then French culture should not be sustained.
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If French culture may only be sustained by violations of religious and personal liberty, then French culture should not be sustained.
Applied to the general case, we might as well pull the plug on all of humanity.
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For the third time, the issue isn't burqas. The burqua is just an outward sign of what is really bothering the French. Do I support religious repression? No, emphatically. But as you've guessed I believe Islam militates against personal liberty and individual rights. Of course this is a threat to the historic liberalism--Gallic-style--of the French culture. These are two cultures that are quintessentially incompatible, but the French have confused "tolerance" with noble self-extinction.
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Hrm, it seems I misinterpreted your previous posts in the thread, in that case.
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If French culture may only be sustained by violations of religious and personal liberty, then French culture should not be sustained.
Are you willing to apply that standard to Islam too?
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Are you willing to apply that standard to Islam too?
This is the first good point Longeyes has made this week.
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Are you willing to apply that standard to Islam too?
That's an easy one - yes. It's doing fine in many places where it has no force of law whatsoever - apparently that's threatening.
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They aren't what they used to be, those Euros, but we wouldn't have gotten here without them. You say French culture died several generations ago. And Muslim culture, which you see no problem replacing French...?
Where did you discern that I favored the Mooslums replacing the French in any of the three parts Gaul was divided into?
If I had to choose between the two, with no other options, I'd keep the French. But I'd hate myself for doing it.
My rant, if you have not yet caught on, is against "diversity" and Political Correctness. No, I am not a supporter of any concept involving a master race, or even a "better than yours even if it still sucks" race. But if you come at me telling me I must kowtow to your demands that I actually endorse your behaviors that offend me, or tell me that I cannot moan and gripe about the career politicians that remain in office by passing laws to enforce such notions I will become unpleasant towards you.
stay safe.
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Understood.
But what's going on, de facto, is Muslim hegemony wherever they attain critical mass, with all that implies. This is not just about theory, it is about practice.
My question--wil you apply that to Muslims?--referred specifically to Micro's statement herewith:
"If French culture may only be sustained by violations of religious and personal liberty, then French culture should not be sustained."
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I do not see the anti-burqa law as sustaining French culture, so your question seems to be a non sequiter.
On the other hand I do see the French law as an attempt to prevent Islamists from gaining criticality, and I support that notion. I just think they are going after the wrong Islamists.
I have not fully developed my notions of how to place the pressure on the patriarchy as opposed to against the individual females. I just "know" that imposing penalties against those who see whatever penalty the law will bring as being that much less terrifying than what their male masters will do if they do not violate the law is not the way to address the root problem(s).
stay safe.
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The specific law is a questionable and ill-targeted attempt to address much deeper anxieties about cultural conflict and existential jeopardy (as I keep saying).
Occupying streets illegally for prayer services is a bigger problem--and the French know this. They also know that car-burning is important. What they don't know is how to put the genie--wasn't he a Muslim by the way?--back into the bottle?
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Heh, what I'm wondering is this, longeyes:
What solution to this muslim expansion and encroachment can there be? Are their numbers even growing, or is the population staying the same and merely spreading?
What solution is there other than exile or genocide? Force them to be muslims in private only?
They are humans and deserve liberty.
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Liberty is a two way street. You can't espouse it out of one side of your mouth, and then applaud its destruction. The Frogs are dead ass wrong on this one.
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This is the first good point Longeyes has made this week.
I'm positively aglow with that vote of confidence. >:D
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This is not about Being Muslim. It's about coercive and repressive actions done in the name of Islam. Actions that restrict the freedom of others.
The French can't tell the Mohammedan what to wear, but they can tell him/her that they must fit into the legal ambit of French society--at least they can until they swarmed.
What's the answer, Pharmacology? I know what some Europeans think about where things are going there.
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That's an easy one - yes. It's doing fine in many places where it has no force of law whatsoever - apparently that's threatening.
What is "doing fine?" Islam without the bothersome Infidel? Islam all by its lonesome and Islam in small cloistered enclaves may be doing fine, but when it becomes a serious player in a modern polity the problems immediately arise.
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What is "doing fine?" Islam without the bothersome Infidel? Islam all by its lonesome and Islam in small cloistered enclaves may be doing fine, but when it becomes a serious player in a modern polity the problems immediately arise.
The more specific the question gets, the more general your answers become.
This is exactly about liberty being restricted, not about "critical masses" (whatever that might mean in reality) or "national identity" (as if that's up to goverment to define).
Renaming a direct and obvious infringement on religious liberty as a national struggle for existence is something that governments do to justify oppression. There's no reason as should be copying their methods here.
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What's the "specific question?" There's nothing general or vague about my remarks. I'm telling you that the problems in France have to do with that nation's awareness that it is losing its cultural identity. Keep the burqa; I'm with ya on that. But don't blow smoke up my rear about liberty when you're talking about a religion that doesn't value the concept as we understand it. Enough.
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Add, De Selby:
What is a critical mass? Empirically it varies from society to society. Ask the French or the Brits. They'll tell you, no doubt with regret.
Actually, "national identity" is something that governments influence and control. Immigration policies aren't set by peoples but by governments and, increasingly, without their consent.
No one's arguing we should persecute people here on the basis of their religious faith. Drop the straw man, please.
Here's your reality:
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Pakistan:-ten-year-old-girl-accused-of-blasphemy-and-sentenced-for-a-spelling-mistake-22746.html