Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: TechMan on October 20, 2011, 03:04:31 PM
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http://www.klfy.com/story/15717759/second-hand-dealer-law (http://www.klfy.com/story/15717759/second-hand-dealer-law)
LA House Bill 195 says that "those who buy and sell second had goods cannot use cash to make those transactions." This is an attempt to track copper thieves and their associated ilk. This bill encompasses Goodwill, garage sales, flea markets. Pawn shops are still allowed to deal in cash, since they keep records.
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Louisiana just made the list of states I never want to move to.
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Pardon my ignorance, but how will they square that with
this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private
Which I've always thought was backed up by some USC somewhere.
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Pardon my ignorance, but how will they square that with
Which I've always thought was backed up by some USC somewhere.
It must not be since many businesses won't take cash as normal procedure. Most airlines don't take cash for onboard purchases. Apartment managers don't take cash for rent, deposits, or even application fees.
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Louisiana just made the list of states I never want to move to.
All it took for me was a trip. Of course, I could do without the entirety of the Gulf Coast.
Chris
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A couple of years ago, I would have assumed this law would be hastily repealed and/or ignored. These days, I'm not so sure. Still not sure how this would be enforced at a garage sale.
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All it took for me was a trip. Of course, I could do without the entirety of the Gulf Coast.
U don lak da Redneck Riviera?
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U don lak da Redneck Riviera?
Can't stand the place. Folks live in Mobile, otherwise I wouldn't go.
Chris
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It must not be since many businesses won't take cash as normal procedure. Most airlines don't take cash for onboard purchases. Apartment managers don't take cash for rent, deposits, or even application fees.
Is that company policy or state/federal law?
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A couple of years ago, I would have assumed this law would be hastily repealed and/or ignored. These days, I'm not so sure. Still not sure how this would be enforced at a garage sale.
In Louisiana? At gunpoint and with confiscation (and subsequent loss of evidence).
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In Louisiana? At gunpoint and with confiscation (and subsequent loss of evidence).
I presume you're alluding to the Hurricane Katrina gun buyback takeback program?
No, really, are they going to stop at every yard sale and church rummage sale they come across?
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I think roo_ster was writing broadly regarding the ethos of law enforcement in Louisiana, without specific reference to Katrina. If I'm correct, he's got a point.
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It must not be since many businesses won't take cash as normal procedure. Most airlines don't take cash for onboard purchases. Apartment managers don't take cash for rent, deposits, or even application fees.
There is a distinct difference between companies refusing to take forms of legal tender (checks, for example), and a state government outlawing the use of fiat cash.
Very rarely would I say that the Feds have the right. In this case, the US currency certainly should trump state law.
I presume you're alluding to the Hurricane Katrina gun buyback takeback program?
No, really, are they going to stop at every yard sale and church rummage sale they come across?
Some jurisdictions have stopped lemonade stands for operating without appropriate licensing.....
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There is a distinct difference between companies refusing to take forms of legal tender (checks, for example), and a state government outlawing the use of fiat cash.
Very rarely would I say that the Feds have the right. In this case, the US currency certainly should trump state law.
That's kinda what I was (inarticulately) getting at. Isn't the whole point of fiat currency that the central bank says you have to take it? I mean, if a state gov can say it isn't legal tender for some things doesn't that run afoul of the whole fiat thing?
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There is a distinct difference between companies refusing to take forms of legal tender (checks, for example), and a state government outlawing the use of fiat cash.
Very rarely would I say that the Feds have the right. In this case, the US currency certainly should trump state law.
Some jurisdictions have stopped lemonade stands for operating without appropriate licensing.....
Yeah, that's why I can see this law actually being enforced in thrift stores and the like, where it doesn't even accomplish its ostensible goal. It's just that, on a Saturday morning, there's a lot of yard sales going on. And unless you start requiring people to keep books, how do you prove anything? A little bit of cash means nothing. If you have no checks, well, you haven't sold anything yet. I could think of more creative ways to do things, like staking out the place or undercover stings, but that's a lot to go through for, uh, nothing.
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All it took for me was a trip. Of course, I could do without the entirety of the Gulf Coast.
Chris
I have some very fond memories Of my time stationed at Pensacola. (I also have a few weekends I can't remember at all).
Of course that was 30+ years ago and the place has likely changed some.
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I have some very fond memories Of my time stationed at Pensacola. (I also have a few weekends I can't remember at all).
Of course that was 30+ years ago and the place has likely changed some.
Most of FL's gulf coast is still pretty cool. We don't really like being associated with AL, LA, and MS.
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Notice it says "buy and sell". If you are only a buyer or only a seller, the law doesn't apply. (it's one of those "meaning of is" things) :angel:
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I think roo_ster was writing broadly regarding the ethos of law enforcement in Louisiana, without specific reference to Katrina. If I'm correct, he's got a point.
Yep.
No, they won't roust every yard sale, just those that look like they have something worth taking or those that advertise particular items in the paper, along with the yard sale announcement.
Let me put it this way:
I know LEOs who work their way into particular crimes' investigation to get leads on real estate, buy before the demand hits, and then sell for profit. The smart ones are working the angles no less than your average smart mobbed up guy does. Lest you think these guy are the "dirty" cops, the ones I know who do this maintain clean records, with nothing but the usual "disgruntled customer" complaints against them.
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Not anywhere near the same extent, but here's what our new police chief is trying to get through the city council.
http://wp.me/p1mkgF-4V
I got the word out to the scrap metal folks, who contacted a few other dealers that would be affected, but there are at least a few more stores in town that would be hit hard by this (they don't keep electronic inventory, buy large mixed lots, etc.) and haven't heard yet, so I'll be making a few extra stops next week with copies of the proposal.
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Yeah, that's why I can see this law actually being enforced in thrift stores and the like, where it doesn't even accomplish its ostensible goal. It's just that, on a Saturday morning, there's a lot of yard sales going on. And unless you start requiring people to keep books, how do you prove anything? A little bit of cash means nothing. If you have no checks, well, you haven't sold anything yet. I could think of more creative ways to do things, like staking out the place or undercover stings, but that's a lot to go through for, uh, nothing.
Sure. Gives the cops a chance to "do something", without putting themselves at real risk. Also, being Louisiana, it gives them a new subsect of the population to shake down.
That's kinda what I was (inarticulately) getting at. Isn't the whole point of fiat currency that the central bank says you have to take it? I mean, if a state gov can say it isn't legal tender for some things doesn't that run afoul of the whole fiat thing?
Yeah I have real doubts that the state can legally say currency can't be accpeted.
Private businesses, however, put restrictions on currency all the time.
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Is that company policy or state/federal law?
Company policy. Reduces the theiving.
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Given what they claim the law is supposed to be targeting, there are likely much better ways to do this.
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Given what they claim the law is supposed to be targeting, there are likely much better ways to do this.
Funny enough, pawn shops are already required in many places to do this. Thumbprinting and ID checks of sellers is pretty common.
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On the other hand, if this is upheld, then it's quite blow for fiat currency. The Legal Tender doctrine is the only thing that keeps Gresham's law in effect.
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On the other hand, if this is upheld, then it's quite blow for fiat currency. The Legal Tender doctrine is the only thing that keeps Gresham's law in effect.
It would only be a blow to the fiat currency if it were replaced with gold, silver, and barter transactions.
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Right. But don't you understand, if it's upheld it's a precedent. Then some other state can create its own better currency.
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Looking at the text of it... (emphasis mine)
http://www.mygov365.com/legislation/view/id/4db66f7549e51bd334be0300/tab/versions/
Anyone, other than a nonprofit entity,who buys, sells, trades in, or otherwise acquires or disposes of junk or used or secondhand property more frequently than once per month from any other person, other than a nonprofit entity, shall be deemed as being engaged in the business of a secondhand dealer.
Horrible wording, since it sounds like even if you just buy stuff for personal use from garage sales more than once a month, you're "engaged in the business of a secondhand dealer."
A secondhand dealer shall not enter into any cash transactions in payment for the purchase of junk or used or secondhand property. Payment shall be made in the form of check, electronic transfers, or money order issued to the seller of the junk or used or secondhand property andmade payable to the name and address of the seller. All payments made by check, electronic transfers, or money order shall be reported separately in the daily reports required by R.S. 37:1866.
So, now that we've defined little old ladies who hit the garage sales every weekend as secondhand dealers, we're going to require them to keep ledgers and file daily reports.
A.(1) Every secondhand dealer shall obtain a signed statement from the seller that the junk or used or secondhand property has been paid for or is owned by the seller, and a failure of the dealer to exact a statement from the seller shall be prima facie evidence of the fraudulent intent and guilty knowledge on the part of the dealer within the meaning of this Part, sufficient to warrant a conviction.
Gee, that's going to be so easy to handle at a garage sale.
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Affects face to face gun transactions. Also affects interstate commerce, if a guy growing pot in his backyard for his own use affects IC, then this surely does.
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I think this is a good idea run a muck.
Years ago here in NJ they passed some law that you could not take RR track to the scrap yard. Because people were steeling it.
I tried to get rid of some once and had a hell of a time. Company I used to work for was on a very old property that had tracks. Most were buried, we were clearing more of the property and dug up a bunch. So I cut it in 10' lengths a took it to the scrap yard. They refused to take it. Tried 2 more, same results. Took it to a yard in PA. They questioned me up and down but once they guy came out of the scale house and looked at it they took it. 150 year old rail looks quite different then the new stuff.
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http://www.mygov365.com/legislation/view/id/4db66f7549e51bd334be0300/tab/versions/
Horrible wording, since it sounds like even if you just buy stuff for personal use from garage sales more than once a month, you're "engaged in the business of a secondhand dealer."
You know, anything that limits my wife to one garage sale per month is fine with me. Looks like a lot of thrift stores would skate on this, though, as they are not for profit.
But on the other hand, when you outlaw garage sales, only outlaws will have garage sales.
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But are garage sales actually for profit. How many people sell something at a garage sale for more than they bought it for.
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Years ago here in NJ they passed some law that you could not take RR track to the scrap yard. Because people were steeling it.
Ha! Good pun =D
I'm glad that you got things ironed out with the scrap dealer. ;)
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You know, if the police had really wanted to investigate that sale of track they could have railroaded you into admitting guilt.
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You know, if the police had really wanted to investigate that sale of track they could have railroaded you into admitting guilt.
They still might find something that ties him to the crime and track him down.
Has there been a spike in this sort of crime lately?
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Maybe all these puns are a signal that you guys should switch to decaf. You have to derail the thread with your little jokes, because you can't even conduct yourselves in an adult manner. Give me a brake man.
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I nominate this thread for the APS FAQ on how to conduct a proper thread veer.
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Can I still pay cash for an hour hand?
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Ok, I'll try to get back on the right track :angel:
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Can I still pay cash for an hour hand?
There's a "Second Hand Store" in the nearest little town to us. But what I could really use is a third hand. ;)