Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AJ Dual on November 01, 2011, 08:54:47 AM
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http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/concealedcarry/concealed-carry-application-11-11.pdf
Downloaded at 12:01am. Mine is in the mail. =)
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Welcome to 1999. ;)
Chris
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So, those of you in CCW states, who did you shoot first?
Cop?
Nun?
Minority?
Woman?
Child?
Or was it just some other driver, arguing over a parking space?
According to the media, these are all rather probable, so I want to be prepared.
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I forgot to shoot someone because I was busy picking up guns from the streets. They were everywhere!
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So, those of you in CCW states, who did you shoot first?
Cop?
Nun?
Minority?
Woman?
Child?
Or was it just some other driver, arguing over a parking space?
According to the media, these are all rather probable, so I want to be prepared.
The minority woman who quit being a nun to be a cop that is pregnant with her first child.
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Still have to work out the training requirement... grr...
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I had everything ready a day ago except for the application. At work this morning I printed it out, filled it out and stuffed it into the mail. Now I get to wait up 45 days for the permit.
Just think, according to the media, in less than 45 days I could be issuing "payback" during a road rage incident. "Cut me off, mutha @#%#$ [ar15]
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Guys, did you read Eugene Kane's column yesterday in which he talks about worrying about who might be armed? He lives in the ghetto, for crying out loud.
The column is here (http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/with-concealed-carry-no-encounter-will-seem-casual-132967548.html).
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The headline showed up last night on Yahoo. Before I even clicked the link I knew exactly who wrote it. ;/
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That was actually fairly balanced (for him)
Mine and Spoon's apps go out tonight... :D
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi156.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft33%2FAJ_Dual%2Fsnoopy.jpg&hash=a99652c2ce9d9c7df56cc4328e670d153d916fd8)
In the mail. I resisted the urge to drive it down to the main Milwaukee branch Post Office on St. Paul Ave just to shave a day off it's travel to Madison.
The local Pewaukee office near my work sufficed.
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So, those of you in CCW states, who did you shoot first?
Cop?
Nun?
Minority?
Woman?
Child?
Or was it just some other driver, arguing over a parking space?
According to the media, these are all rather probable, so I want to be prepared.
I did the classic "arguing over a parking space" thing, so the blood would run in the street where it belongs.
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Good idea, the street has those sewer grates, and has planned drainage etc.
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Anyone from WI decide what their carry gun is going to be already? Right now I have 4 to choose from but I may buy a fifth now that CCW is a reality. The others were more of a stow+go and chosen more for portability than CCW.
The ones I am thinking about buying:
S&W Bodyguard 38
Kimber Solo
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If I wasn't in Indy, I'd head north, cross the Cheddarcurtain, CCW and shoot my first cheesehead, since the season opened today. I heard they taste like chicken.
:P :P :P :P
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Still have to work out the training requirement... grr...
I saw a thread on the Appleseed forum yesterday about an Appleseed supposedly being sufficient for the training requirement for CCW. Gave me a bit of a "WTF" moment.
Call me old fashioned, but if there's a training requirement for a concealed handgun permit, I think the training requirement should at least bother to care if the training is in handgun proficiency. Not to denigrate Appleseed (I'm an instructor with them for 4 years), but you might as well take a skeet lesson for your concealed handgun training requirement. ;/
Otherwise, there should be no training requirement.
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I forgot to shoot someone because I was busy picking up guns from the streets. They were everywhere!
:'(
Not here. I'm feeling discriminated!
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Those from the Milwaukee area might want to remember which retailers helped over all those years of fighting to get this passed. The Shooters Shop and Fletcher's did a lot. Badger didn't do anything. Actually they did worse than doing nothing, as they threw out our literature, costing us money.
Also, Bob Pucci, who runs the gun shows, was really generous with giving us tables for free whenever possible, and doing other things. The guys who run the gun show in Fon du Lac (Fon du Lac Sportsmen's club?) kicked Strings and other volunteers out.
Deerfield Pistol Range let us use their shop and range for free for a small fund raiser.
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Those from the Milwaukee area might want to remember which retailers helped over all those years of fighting to get this passed. The Shooters Shop and Fletcher's did a lot. Badger didn't do anything. Actually they did worse than doing nothing, as they threw out our literature, costing us money.
Also, Bob Pucci, who runs the gun shows, was really generous with giving us tables for free whenever possible, and doing other things. The guys who run the gun show in Fon du Lac (Fon du Lac Sportsmen's club?) kicked Strings and other volunteers out.
Deerfield Pistol Range let us use their shop and range for free for a small fund raiser.
Weird. Every gun show in Fond du Lac I went to they usually allowed Jim Fendry to use the microphone to promote the WI pro gun movement. I seem to remember him promoting CCW. I think I also remember members of the Freemen Militia having a table there a few times too.
Why did they kick the CCW volunteers out?
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So, those of you in CCW states, who did you shoot first?
Cop?
Nun?
Minority?
Woman?
Child?
Or was it just some other driver, arguing over a parking space?
According to the media, these are all rather probable, so I want to be prepared.
As long as you get "wild west blood in teh streetz!", I don't see that it matters.
(The preceding line is satire.)
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Anyone from WI decide what their carry gun is going to be already? Right now I have 4 to choose from but I may buy a fifth now that CCW is a reality. The others were more of a stow+go and chosen more for portability than CCW.
The ones I am thinking about buying:
S&W Bodyguard 38
The plastic bodyguard, with the laser, or an older one?
Kimber Solo
I've heard mixed things about the Solo. It is undeniably pretty, though.
I'm thinking, Taurus 605 for my next trip up the road to Cheeseland.
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Those from the Milwaukee area might want to remember which retailers helped over all those years of fighting to get this passed. The Shooters Shop and Fletcher's did a lot. Badger didn't do anything. Actually they did worse than doing nothing, as they threw out our literature, costing us money.
Also, Bob Pucci, who runs the gun shows, was really generous with giving us tables for free whenever possible, and doing other things. The guys who run the gun show in Fon du Lac (Fon du Lac Sportsmen's club?) kicked Strings and other volunteers out.
Deerfield Pistol Range let us use their shop and range for free for a small fund raiser.
Badger Guns isn't going to be in business much longer anyway.
http://www.wisn.com/news/29519041/detail.html
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>Why did they kick the CCW volunteers out?<
Honestly, we have NO idea.
We came in, and were told "you can't have a table. But feel free to set up right outside the doors. Since all we were doing was handing out literature, we figured "cool". We stood in the cold, handing out flyers and holding the door for people (literally, that's all the more we were doing at that time).
Maybe 2 hours in, this old codger comes out, and informs us that if we want to be there, we could pay the (IIRC) couple hundred for a table, or leave. Or he was calling the police.
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Badger Guns isn't going to be in business much longer anyway.
http://www.wisn.com/news/29519041/detail.html
No, they'll be there.
They're just doing their third, (or fourth?) FFL shift to a different relative under a new slightly different incorporation.
Either the news media is too ignorant to understand this, or they're intentionally sandbagging the story to create more easy copy with "outrage" when they close on Dec 31 as "Badger Guns", and re-open on Jan 2 as "Badger Firearms Inc." or whatever.
The old Beatovic guy who was the original owner mouthing off that he'd like to see all private sales banned in WI was the more than final straw for me.
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Anyone from WI decide what their carry gun is going to be already? Right now I have 4 to choose from but I may buy a fifth now that CCW is a reality. The others were more of a stow+go and chosen more for portability than CCW.
The ones I am thinking about buying:
S&W Bodyguard 38
Kimber Solo
It's pretty much going to be my Glock 26, with my Keltec P32 with a CTC laser on it as backup/micro carry.
I have a Glock 21, but it doesn't work for my hands. I've had it since '94 I really should auction the damn thing off.. I've also got a S&W 66 (4" maybe a bit long), 686 3", and a 36 chief's special I could use.
I'm big enough my HK USP40, wouldn't be much of a problem either.
I've got a Springfield GI "Milspec", but I'd like to get it re-worked if I went that route. Novak sites, some better grips, get the flat mainspring housing, beavertail, other doo-dads added on. I'm not much of a 1911 guy though.
I've been thinking about a KT PF9, or maybe a Walther PPS. However, I don't know that they're really THAT much smaller than the G26, when it disappears so readily, and is so reliable, and a good shooter for me.
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It's pretty much going to be my Glock 26, with my Keltec P32 with a CTC laser on it as backup/micro carry.
I have a Glock 21, but it doesn't work for my hands. I've had it since '94 I really should auction the damn thing off.. I've also got a S&W 66 (4" maybe a bit long), 686 3", and a 36 chief's special I could use.
I'm big enough my HK USP40, wouldn't be much of a problem either.
I've got a Springfield GI "Milspec", but I'd like to get it re-worked if I went that route. Novak sites, some better grips, get the flat mainspring housing, beavertail, other doo-dads added on. I'm not much of a 1911 guy though.
I've been thinking about a KT PF9, or maybe a Walther PPS. However, I don't know that they're really THAT much smaller than the G26, when it disappears so readily, and is so reliable, and a good shooter for me.
I have a Taurus PT945 and a Millinenum Pro both in 45ACP, a Taurus Ultra-lite 45 in 45 LC and a Bulgarian Mak in 9mm Mak.
The S&W bodyguard I am interested in is the .38 revolver with the crimson trace laser.
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No, they'll be there.
They're just doing their third, (or fourth?) FFL shift to a different relative under a new slightly different incorporation.
Either the news media is too ignorant to understand this, or they're intentionally sandbagging the story to create more easy copy with "outrage" when they close on Dec 31 as "Badger Guns", and re-open on Jan 2 as "Badger Firearms Inc." or whatever.
The old Beatovic guy who was the original owner mouthing off that he'd like to see all private sales banned in WI was the more than final straw for me.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Regardless, I generally go to Fletcher's anyway.
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>Anyone from WI decide what their carry gun is going to be already? Right now I have 4 to choose from but I may buy a fifth now that CCW is a reality. The others were more of a stow+go and chosen more for portability than CCW. <
Already have my "lineup"...
Will rotate by mood between the Beretta M9, Colt Officer's, and Smith 19 (see my avatar). Seecamp in pocket.
Spoon is just going to stick with her Kimber (reminds me, have to get more Officer 45 mags)...
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It's pretty much going to be my Glock 26, with my Keltec P32 with a CTC laser on it as backup/micro carry.
I have a Glock 21, but it doesn't work for my hands. I've had it since '94 I really should auction the damn thing off..
G2, then? Hmmm. Let us know.
I've also got a S&W 66 (4" maybe a bit long), 686 3", and a 36 chief's special I could use.
I'm big enough my HK USP40, wouldn't be much of a problem either.
I've got a Springfield GI "Milspec",
I missed an incredible deal on one, last gun show. <sigh> but I'd like to get it re-worked if I went that route. Novak sites, some better grips, get the flat mainspring housing, beavertail, other doo-dads added on. I'm not much of a 1911 guy though.
I've been thinking about a KT PF9, or maybe a Walther PPS. However, I don't know that they're really THAT much smaller than the G26, when it disappears so readily, and is so reliable, and a good shooter for me.
I contemplate selling my PF9. It's pretty darn small, but not LCP type small, and I trust my Taurus snub more.
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Local TV station WTMJ 4 had a story about the new CCW law and some video to go along with it. They show a guy filling out the form. Some things I noticed:
1. He used a "/" instead of a "X" like the instructions specify.
2. He marked "yes" to the question of being a legal alien of the United States.
3. He marked "no" to being a WI resident and possessing legal DL or ID.
4. He marked "no" to being at least 21.
My guess it will take less than 45 days for the DOJ to reject his application.
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Local TV station WTMJ 4 had a story about the new CCW law and some video to go along with it. They show a guy filling out the form. Some things I noticed:
1. He used a "/" instead of a "X" like the instructions specify.
2. He marked "yes" to the question of being a legal alien of the United States.
3. He marked "no" to being a WI resident and possessing legal DL or ID.
4. He marked "no" to being at least 21.
My guess it will take less than 45 days for the DOJ to reject his application.
Could be a plant to try and trip up the process.
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Was it Jim Doyle?
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http://www.todaystmj4.com/multimedia/videos/?bctid=1253518752001 (http://www.todaystmj4.com/multimedia/videos/?bctid=1253518752001)
A link to the story I mentioned. When I watched the video from the link it is too blurry to see the form as he is filling it out. I first watched the story in HD last night so I was able to see the form more clearly.
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You can fill out everything on the .PDF right on the screen before printing, save for your signature. Avoiding any problems of legibility. :facepalm:
I was struck by the form's similarity to the 4473 yes/no questions.
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You can fill out everything on the .PDF right on the screen before printing, save for your signature. Avoiding any problems of legibility. :facepalm:
When I first downloaded the form I did not notice it had interactive fields. I just wanted get it in the mail before our company's first mail ran in the morning. =(
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I'm just peeved, because I can't figure out what MS-Office 2010 did with the zip barcode option when printing an envelope.
I guess the USPS' rapid fire OCR scanner/sorters will do well enough with neatly laser printed addresses, but that bar code might have shaved a day off of it getting to Madison.
I should have just stayed up after midnight, and drove it to the airport of downtown branch. =D
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>I was struck by the form's similarity to the 4473 yes/no questions. <
Yep... I had the same thought...
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How long should we wait before pushing for a repeal of the 48 hour waiting period when buying a handgun?
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Not a bad idea, but would be better to wait a year or so.
Let the public get used to the lack of blood in the streets and so on. And maybe for a couple anecdotes of people applying for an emergency permit, but having to wait 48 hours to get a gun to use, and you'll have a good opportunity...
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And maybe for a couple anecdotes of people applying for an emergency permit, but having to wait 48 hours to get a gun to use...
And how are people going to hear about this? Will you go door to door?
You know the Journal Sentinel would omit the point about the waiting period.
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_21/468216_Permit_arrived_______w_pics_page_2.html&page=2&anc=5038793#i5038793
Lucky bastidige, he got #15... =D
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I might be travelling to Appleton, WI later this week -- about an 80% chance. Are there any places that are off-limits to CCW? (I know "concealed means concealed", but I prefer to be legal if at all possible) How where OC is allowed and CC is not? I'm not planning on doing any drinkin' or visiting any courthouses or military bases...
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Check the DOJ website linked earlier, it covers 'em all.
PM sent with my number: I'm only an hour from Appleton...
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I might be travelling to Appleton, WI later this week -- about an 80% chance. Are there any places that are off-limits to CCW? (I know "concealed means concealed", but I prefer to be legal if at all possible) How where OC is allowed and CC is not? I'm not planning on doing any drinkin' or visiting any courthouses or military bases...
If I remember right one of the police chiefs in that area directed his officers to do treat OCers in the same manner they do with felony stops where they think the contact is armed...prone and sucking concrete.
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That's true. Same chief also got removed fairly soon after that...
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PM sent with my number: I'm only an hour from Appleton...
Thanks. An hour which direction? I'm coming from Minnesota; will be busy with meetings and stuff Friday afternoon and evening, and Saturday morning. Not sure if I have any time Saturday or not.
I read thru the WI carry permit training material; I jumped ahead to the legal stuff at the end. I think I'll be OK -- and I'm staying out of Madison and Milwaukee [shakes fist in general direction of M&M]
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I'm on the lakeshore in Manitowoc...
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I've seen my first posting, in person.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi156.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft33%2FAJ_Dual%2FIMG_20111104_074244.jpg&hash=9d64d4e25b8dbd56eaead6a061a11ce8cf27a846)
It's the other business we share our building with in our outer-ring Milwaukee suburb. We share a bathroom in a small foyer with two locking doors from each side. They sell high end office furniture and cubicle systems there.
I'll have to slip around to their main entrance and see if they posted it as well. There's a couple of gunnies at my place of employment, including the owner, and I'm curious if this is a response to all the news over CCW coming on-line, or if it's aimed at us in particular. We don't cross over into their space, nor they ours, but the doors are open all day, and only eight feet apart, so I'm wondering if they overheard anyone "talking guns" on our side.
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You should put up a sign on your door stating that legally owned and carried firearms are more than welcome.
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Marquette University posted all their building entrances with "No Weapons" signs weeks ago.
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You should put up a sign on your door stating that legally owned and carried firearms are more than welcome.
It's not my business, I'm just a peon. I shoot with the owner now and again, and he's definitely pro-gun, and pro-CCW, but he's definitely got an attitude that it's not going to be a 24/7/365 kind of deal. Attitudes, I'm sure that are borne of living in the outer ring Milwaukee burbs.
We've had a "no weapons" policy in the company handbook forever. Although it's just a copypasta generic HR source. Not specifically written by them.
I don't think he'll post our offices.
So between not posting, and the HR policy, we'll have a "don't ask, don't tell, if you're made, or someone complains, you're out the door"-policy on CCW.
However, I am thinking about what kind of things I can do to that neighboring business to quietly torment them over posting, although I'm not going to post any ideas that violate APS's CoC/ToS etc. >:D
Since they're a Business 2 Business type outfit, I don't think adding them to any pro-carry "Businesses to Boycott" lists will help, but I will do it anyway.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi156.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft33%2FAJ_Dual%2FIMG_20111104_074244.jpg&hash=9d64d4e25b8dbd56eaead6a061a11ce8cf27a846)
I haven't read the WI ccw rules. Is that sign a legally binding posting?
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I don't know if it meets the size requirements (can't tell what size it is), but if it does, then it's legally binding. You can't be arrested just for carrying, though. You have to be asked to leave. If you then refuse, they can call the cops and they'll remove you or cite you for trespassing.
Someone should put together an informational flyer on the downside of posting signs, i.e. that if something happens where a permit holder could have stopped a bad guy, but was prohibited from carrying, that he and other victims can sue. That might change some minds.
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I don't know if it meets the size requirements (can't tell what size it is), but if it does, then it's legally binding. You can't be arrested just for carrying, though. You have to be asked to leave. If you then refuse, they can call the cops and they'll remove you or cite you for trespassing.
Someone should put together an informational flyer on the downside of posting signs, i.e. that if something happens where a permit holder could have stopped a bad guy, but was prohibited from carrying, that he and other victims can sue. That might change some minds.
First part is semi-correct. You can't be "arrested" per-se for violating a legal sign in WI.
However, it's risky. WI does not have the "Verbal warning/trespass authority if you refuse" for it's no-carry signs like many other states do. That, AFIAK, was in the old versions of the WI PPA bills that failed. I don't know exactly why it changed.
Failure to obey a proper no-CCW sign here is a $1000 WI state civil forfeiture. There's no requirement for the posted property owner to verbally notify, or warn someone who's in violation either.
The good news: a civil forfeiture is not even a misdemeanor, so your carry or gun-owner status, should not be in any jeopardy. The bad: It's $1000-frickin dollars! And with no requirement to notify, someone who observes (or merely suspects) that you are carrying in violation of their sign, can call the po-po without warning as you browse in the store or whatever, and there's no "get out of it clause" like there is with the verbal warning/trespass states, where it's no harm-no foul if you willingly leave once instructed to do so.
So WI's signage enforcement is a mixed bag, there's zero criminal liability, but the fine is quite steep. And there's no way to weasel out of it by politely agreeing to leave the premises. Once you enter a posted location, the violation exists, and keeps on existing, even after you've left, if there's some credible proof, I guess. So if you're made in a posted location, they know who you are from some identifying information, like say, you used your credit card at the checkout, or someone got your license plate, they could still call the police after you've left, who might serve you with the citation at your home even.
It remains to be seen with how much zeal the police will follow up on this since the number of carriers who've gotten permits back is still just in the dozens. And it'll be interesting if local municipalities catch on, and create their own local civil forfeitures, to try and capture any revenue that the state would have otherwise gotten.
The upside though is they may set the fine lower than $1000.
The second part is dead-on though. WI's legislature thoughtfully added civil immunity over the actions of a licensed CCW'er to any business or public place that does NOT post. Any place that does post could face civil lawsuits if someone who has a CCW permit, and did not carry because of the signs, and is harmed in a crime or violent act on their property.
Hopefully the reality of this will be an incentive in the long run for most postings to come down, or not be replaced as they fade or wear out.
The sign I took a photo of above is legal, as it's printed on 8.1x11" paper. IIRC, the minimum size in the law is 5x7".
I haven't scouted my whole building yet, but we do share an "L"-shaped rear courtyard/loading dock area that I can see from my office windows. (I have a killer view of the dumpsters) and from what I see, they haven't posted all the entrances to their building, but they may still be legally covered, because I believe the law states "All entrances readily accessible by the public. And the rear service doors etc. aren't "common entrances" and presumably are secured and only accessed by the employees etc.
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Failure to obey a proper no-CCW sign here is a $1000 WI state civil forfeiture. There's no requirement for the posted property owner to verbally notify, or warn someone who's in violation either.
I didn't realize (obviously) that the bill had been changed in that portion. Ouch. I guess I'll definitely have to remove my gun before visiting relatives in jail. ;)
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I sent off my fax to the WI DOJ with the info on AK's permit requirements for reciprocity examination.
We'll see if they actually respond.
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I'll have to reread the law: I could have sworn the "must be asked to leave" portion was still in there...
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Just off the top of my head I can't think of another shall-issue state where the licensee must be asked to leave before further action can be taken.
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Just off the top of my head I can't think of another shall-issue state where the licensee must be asked to leave before further action can be taken.
Have to double check but I believe Oklahoma is that way.
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From the FAQ page...
A person may be subject to a Class B forfeiture if he or she carries a firearm on the property after being notified not to remain
on the property or remain with a specific type of firearm
(bolding mine)
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Cool! The asked to leave is still in there...
Gotta love how the legislature gives that as a huge wink-and-a-nod to "Concealed means concealed". ;)
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Strings,
Is there any definition or clarification of what "notified" means? Given how WI works could the AG decide to enforce it as the sign itself providing the notification?
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Doesn't say. Verbiage is "either verbally or by posted sign". Hmmm...
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WI committee strikes the four hour training requirement. (http://appletonhub.postcrescent.com/article/20111107/APC0101/111107069) Hopefully now a photocopy of my NRA Basic Pistol completion certificate will suffice.
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Have been out of state the last week, just dropped my App in the mail this morning.
The wait begins.
At least JB van Hollen has his already (that friggen tool).
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WI committee strikes the four hour training requirement. Hopefully now a photocopy of my NRA Basic Pistol completion certificate will suffice.
I would think it would...
Anyone know if this means that the Maryland online training course is sufficient to meet training requirements? A lof of my friends are scrambling to find a class to take, I simply sent a copy of my Hunter Safety card...
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I just checked my checking account. WI DOJ just cashed my $50 check. Now it is just the waiting.
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I would think it would...
Anyone know if this means that the Maryland online training course is sufficient to meet training requirements? A lof of my friends are scrambling to find a class to take, I simply sent a copy of my Hunter Safety card...
No, face-to-face classroom training is still required.
It's really just a turf battle between the legislature and VanHollen, and an issue of semantics. The minimum has been removed, but in reality any decent legit course, from the NRA, or any other reputable source, will still be at least four hours long.
I suppose someone may set up a 2 hour course under the idea that someone who's an experienced long time gun owner and shooter is better served with 2 hours of lethal force and WI law issues than 4 hours of NRA basic safety info, but anyone really cutting it short, I'd be suspicious they were trying to set up a "CCW mill".
Schultz Gun club down in Muskego is offering classes, pretty reasonably. $100 for NRA basic safety in the home, and there'll be others soon. Anyone attending gets a coupon for $25 off their membership dues if they decide to join the club. The classes for November weren't all full as of last night's monthly club members meeting.
http://www.schultzgunclub.com/
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No, face-to-face classroom training is still required.
I suppose someone may set up a 2 hour course under the idea that someone who's an experienced long time gun owner and shooter is better served with 2 hours of lethal force and WI law issues than 4 hours of NRA basic safety info, but anyone really cutting it short, I'd be suspicious they were trying to set up a "CCW mill".
The whole training requirement is inconsistant with reality.
I'm glad they allow Hunter Safety because it makes it simple for me, but take out the hunting ethics/regulations/range day/rifle identification portion of the course, and what's left is nothing that isn't covered at least as well with the maryland online course.
OTOH, classroom time isn't the equivalent to hands on training of any kind.
IMHO, for a person who has spent 50 hours shooting competitively whether it be IDPA/IPSC/Bullseye/3-Gun/Highpower/CMP/Trap/skeet/sporting clays/adnauseum, a 4 hour class on safety is just a meaningless hoop to jump through.
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Wasn't there a big argument about this earlier this year, whether a CCW course should include ANY range portion/safety, or should concentrate mostly on the laws and suchlike?
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I find it curious Cheeseheads are only concerned over blood in the street. Whaddya gonna do with the bodies?
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Strings, there was debate over all of it.
And most people, and all of the media miss the intent behind the law having no time requirement on the training or class requirements.
It's more an acknowledgement that "water seeks it's own level".
A class may impart some specific and useful knowledge, but it won't make an otherwise competent and cautious person "more cautious". Nor would 72 hours of class time make a loose cannon goofball more responsible. They'd just merely repress their natural goofiness for the duration, and then they'd revert once they have permit in hand.
Nor does a half-blind 4'8" 90 lbs widow who's 79 years old need Massad Ayoob's LFI III to know it's time to gut-shoot some mugger who's already on top of her, much less improve her aim at contact distances.
I find it curious Cheeseheads are only concerned over blood in the street. Whaddya gonna do with the bodies?
At least in Milwaukee, we have our ill-conceived "Deep Tunnel Project", cynically designed to create a band-aid approach and cost-shifting onto the suburbs for Milwaukee's ancient combined rain/sanitary sewer system, rather than making Milwaukee proper foot the bill for separating it's ancient combined sewers.
It did not live up to expectations, and it allows record amounts of "untreated solids" directly into Lake Michigan almost every rainstorm.
So larger debris, like bodies are largely a self-correcting problem.
Unless you live on the Western edge of Michigan, I guess...
http://mises.org/daily/1538
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I got mine in the mail today. # in the 600s. =)
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I got mine in the mail today. # in the 600s.
That is impressively quick turnaround time by a government entity, especially considering the volume of applications expected.
OTOH, maybe you were lucky to get your application picked early from the stack of mail and was one of the last processed last week? :facepalm:
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That is impressively quick turnaround time by a government entity, especially considering the volume of applications expected.
OTOH, maybe you were lucky to get your application picked early from the stack of mail and was one of the last processed last week? :facepalm:
One of my friends was convinced I would not get it until 2012. He renewed his license plates before I submitted my permit application and he still has not gotten anything back yet.
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StopTheGreys: when did you send your app in again? REALLY want Spoon and I to get the happy letters in the mail!
Oh... and just sent out mom in law's app... ;)
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StopTheGreys: when did you send your app in again? REALLY want Spoon and I to get the happy letters in the mail!
Oh... and just sent out mom in law's app... ;)
I mailed out on 11/1 from the North side of Milwaukee.
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Hmmm... wonder if that means I might have mine next week...
Dare I hope?
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Sure, dare all you want.
I sent mine on the first from Pewaukee, near my work, and so far, bupkis. :P
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One of my coworkers just got his, I'll have to ask him his number and when he mailed it- probably from Grafton/Cedarburg.
Edit: He sent his out at the end of the day 11/1, received it on 11/10. Numbered in the 1700s.