Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: 40 caliber on November 18, 2011, 12:14:45 AM
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Here's the scenario: you live in a society in decline. Law and order are slowly disintegrating. You need to defend yourself because the city you live in is starting to eat itself. Citizens are still allowed to own firearms but the law has been changed to limit gun ownership to one firearm per individual. What pistol or longarm do you pick and why? Assume you cannot flee the situation immediately and that you have a middle class existence; your disposable income is somewhat limited.
What's your top urban defense weapon?
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What's your top urban defense weapon?
Brains
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Are we to assume that we are living in our current domiciles, and our situation is otherwise unchanged?
If it were legal for me to own a firearm, I would choose an AR-15 rifle of some description. My main concern would be the possibility of large-scale violence, i.e. riots, and home invasions. Because my work and study schedule mean I spend only 3 days a week outside the home, home defense is paramount. (If I get the scholarship I'm aiming at it'll be only 1 day a week).
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Brains
And after an adequate supply of those is had, a quality AK-74. While it's not anywhere in my collection currently, it's a combination of robust platform and cheeeaaaap ammo. Like the budget you described.
ETA: Ammo to go is selling 5.45x39mm for 15.3 cents a round (2160 rounds for $329.95) less shipping. Good luck finding that price on any other center fire rifle caliber.
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Why do you care what the law is under such circumstances?
(mine is a .357 lever-action carbine, but a .30 M1 Carbine is not a bad choice either, or even a .22LR autoloader.)
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Probably something along the lines of a Smith 642.
It's far more likely that I'll be attacked while out and about then at home, so I need something concealable. It needs to be reliable, and preferably something that can be fired from a coat pocket. Common ammo avaliability. Simplicity.
In this situation, I'm not worried about a team of highly trained professionals (I don't have anything that valuable), I'm worried about random street thugs.
Plan A is to blend in unlessed pressed into action.
If things have gotten totally out of hand, an AK to assist my departure from the AO.
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I'll go with my M4-gery. It's compact enough for the house, and still has range for outdoors, as well as firepower. While one thug or two is most likely, I wouldn't rule out small mobs. They're already attacking in this time of relative peace. It would also be good for game, to a point.
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Brains
Zombie alert!
:lol:
That's a really hard choice, 40 cal. I'm tempted to demand and whine petulantly that I simply must be allowed two guns. After all, if the noob in MW3 can have a rifle and a pistol, then so can I. [ar15]
But, when I am tired from arguing and the gun store guy refuses to sell me two guns no matter the modest bribe I try with him, I'll choose any double-stack 9x19 I can get my hands on with as many mags as I can get. Ideally, a 17rd or greater system that has strong aftermarket support for quality mags... race-gun 140 or 170mm mags, Glock 33rd 9mm mags, MecGar AFC mags, +2 baseplates... whatever I could find.
Carry concealed with the smallest mag that fits the system, and have a couple of larger format mags in a man-purse, briefcase, laptop bag, or whatever.
Top choices, starting from scratch and owning no holsters or anything in preparation?
-Glock 17
-XDm 9
-XD 9
-STI 2011 9mm
-EAA Witness 9mm
-CZ SP-01
-Sig P226
10 mags, 200rds of defensive hollowpoints, 500rds of FMJ, IWB rig, OWB rig, mag carriers for up to 4 mags on belt if I choose to... but granular enough that I can only carry 1 or 2 if I choose to. Gun belt.
I'd drop $1500 or so between gun store purchases and online orders (holsters, belt, most of the mags from online).
Basically, something I can conceal IWB if I choose, but with a duty/race rig (more secure than most race rigs, though) that any beat cop would appreciate in the middle of a narco-shootout.
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Det cord
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Brains
As much as I'd like to categorize brains as a firearm they are not. You can't buy a brain at the gun shop.
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Are we to assume that we are living in our current domiciles, and our situation is otherwise unchanged?
Yes, good assumption.
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Why do you care what the law is under such circumstances?
(mine is a .357 lever-action carbine, but a .30 M1 Carbine is not a bad choice either, or even a .22LR autoloader.)
Me personally, I'm a scofflaw when I deem necessary. But I'm going to write this up for people who might care once I gather enough data. My attitude about the law is a whole other topic though.
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I'll go with my M4-gery. It's compact enough for the house, and still has range for outdoors, as well as firepower. While one thug or two is most likely, I wouldn't rule out small mobs. They're already attacking in this time of relative peace. It would also be good for game, to a point.
Is there a good web site where I can read about assembling/purchasing something similar?
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Det cord
What good is det cord without some high explosive material?
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What good is det cord without some high explosive material?
'Scuse me, but isn't det cord a high explosive material in and of itself?
1) Wrap det cord around something you don't want to be where it presently is.
2) Cause detonator to go off, igniting det cord.
3) Something is no longer where you didn't want it to be.
4) Profit.
I think the problem with det cord you were looking for is that because it does not propel a projectile due to the explosive combustion of a chemical propellant it is not a firearm.
Now, if I may - why are you contemplating moving to Detroit/Baltimore/SE or SW Washington, DC/East or Central LA/Compton/Chicago/etc? That is the reason underlying your question, isn't it?
stay safe.
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Short barrel pump 12 gauge, 00 buck and slugs will cover most needs.
Of course ne'er do well that I am I simply can't imagine being bereft of more than one firearm.
[ar15]
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Is there a good web site where I can read about assembling/purchasing something similar?
ar15.com contains a wealth of good information. (It also includes some silly K-Mart Kommando and uber tactical Mall Ninja stuff, so read with a discerning eye.)
The best video I've come across for assembling an AR is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA_Vkb2UB1w
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Short barrel pump 12 gauge, 00 buck and slugs will cover most needs.
Of course ne'er do well that I am I simply can't imagine being bereft of more than one firearm.
[ar15]
+1.
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I would have to give serious thought to a 3-4" .357 revolver. I rarely feel undergunned with one of these on me. And for the scenario described by the OP, concealment would be important to me.
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First after reading this I saw only home defense.
I'd have to go with the trusty 1911. Punch, power, accuracy, fast reloads.
Of course, IMHO, any mid to full size service sidearm would be a good choice.
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SBR AKM clone of some sort.
Maneuverable indoors, and 7.62x39 loses very little velocity from short barrels. With the folding stock it has some ability to be carried concealed in an armpit under a jacket.
With a small optic, sight radius isn't an issue for longer shots either. And sometimes accuracy is better than the longer barreled AK's as the barrel is more rigid for it's length.
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Top choice for Home D? One of my social shotguns loaded with 00 Fed FC buck, 000 Rem Express buck, or foster slugs. Of those, I would rank in the following order:
But if I were allowed concealed carry and only one weapon, 1911 GM rules the roost.
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Here's the scenario: you live in a society in decline. Law and order are slowly disintegrating. You need to defend yourself because the city you live in is starting to eat itself. Citizens are still allowed to own firearms but the law has been changed to limit gun ownership to one firearm per individual. What pistol or longarm do you pick and why? Assume you cannot flee the situation immediately and that you have a middle class existence; your disposable income is somewhat limited.
What's your top urban defense weapon?
"What one gun", frequently asked in Interwebz gunfora, is the modern equivalent of the medieval "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" type question. Not meant to be actually answered, meant to exercise thinking.
Here are my thoughts. A lot depends on details that aren't specified.
Society in decline, society that limits firearm ownership, points to an actual or developing opressive gov't.
Handguns and the cartridges they use, suck for most things. The benefit they offer over larger and more capable arms are their portability, and their concealability.
I won't be owning an AR any time soon. An AK would work handily, if anything at all would, in persuading a mob to move on. Ditto a shotgun. A society that limits firearm ownership to one, is unlikely to let me wander off the Walmart or the grocery store with a long gun. If I can hole up in the house, that'd be the way to go. If it's safe to go to Wally World or the grocery store without it, that'd be the way to go.
If you're down to handguns, pretty much anything I have now. Except my PF9 -- I would not want that as my last gun. It's all (on purpose) durable stuff, without great value, in standard chamberings. Anything that was purchased without an FFL as intermediary (and thus is, as far as possible, unknown) gets stashed someplace private.
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Here's the scenario: you live in a society in decline. Law and order are slowly disintegrating. You need to defend yourself because the city you live in is starting to eat itself. Citizens are still allowed to own firearms but the law has been changed to limit gun ownership to one firearm per individual. What pistol or longarm do you pick and why? Assume you cannot flee the situation immediately and that you have a middle class existence; your disposable income is somewhat limited.
What's your top urban defense weapon?
I'm not sure where you all got "home defense only" out of this? How is a long arm going to help you when you need to go to the store, or to work? Keeping in mind, if there is still enough structure that you can't get more then one gun, you're certainly not going to be able to openly carry a rifle at walmart. :facepalm:
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I'm not sure where you all got "home defense only" out of this? How is a long arm going to help you when you need to go to the store, or to work? Keeping in mind, if there is still enough structure that you can't get more then one gun, you're certainly not going to be able to openly carry a rifle at walmart. :facepalm:
You can if you wear a duster. (https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gunrightsmedia.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fcool.gif&hash=4513f1ac007d9fc357a0e4bd8e88f1126f8c9bed)
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You can if you wear a duster. (https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gunrightsmedia.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fcool.gif&hash=4513f1ac007d9fc357a0e4bd8e88f1126f8c9bed)
Or if you paint the muzzle orange.......
:D
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I'm not sure where you all got "home defense only" out of this? How is a long arm going to help you when you need to go to the store, or to work? Keeping in mind, if there is still enough structure that you can't get more then one gun, you're certainly not going to be able to openly carry a rifle at walmart. :facepalm:
that would be why I changed my choice.
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I would look at something chambered in 9mm or 5.56 since there is plenty of it for military purposes.
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I'd have to try to make the best of a bad situation.
A Glock 19 and a Mech Tech C.C.U.
jim
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BAR
Sawdust
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I would look at something chambered in 9mm or 5.56 since there is plenty of it for military purposes.
I see a lot of folks use that reasoning.
However, unless you're actually in the .MIL and know what the ammo storage areas are for local armories etc. are, (presuming they're not defended) and how ammo distribution works... the mythical stocks of these "common calibers" would take some time to appear through the black market etc.
IMO, you're one of the few who'd have an idea of what to do and how to procure some of it.
If things are bad enough I'm getting a significant amount of common .MIL calibers as "battlefield pickups", I probably ought to review my plans as to why I and my family are in such a dangerous area.
Having diversification of firearms in your armory into common calibers, 5.56/.223, 7.62x39 and x51 NATO, 9mm, .40, .45. .38/.357 is probably not a bad idea for barter, found ammo etc. it might extend your ability to shoot back, perhaps for years.. But most folks will only ever have what they've stored up in advance.
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Currently I have a Mini-14, 2 x 10/22's, a 16 gauge single shot shotgun and two .45 pistols. Going to be picking up the next couple of days a .270 rifle for my son and more than likely a .40 S&W. Also in the near future, year or less, I will be getting an m4orgery in 5.56 and a 30.06.
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I'd have to try to make the best of a bad situation.
A Glock 19 and a Mech Tech C.C.U.
jim
Once mounted to the CCU, you are legally prohibited from ever using your Glock as a pistol ever again. Original slide must stay off, forever-more.
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Once mounted to the CCU, you are legally prohibited from ever using your Glock as a pistol ever again. Original slide must stay off, forever-more.
Wrong.
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
http://www.mechtechsys.com/faqs.php
http://www.mechtechsys.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=431
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Wrong.
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
http://www.mechtechsys.com/faqs.php
http://www.mechtechsys.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=431
I sit happily corrected.
Does this then mean also, that a person can build an AR "pistol" and then swap:
-the naked buffer tube for a shoulder stock, and;
-the short upper for a 16" or longer upper;
And freely bounce from pistol to rifle to pistol? As long as he never puts the short upper on while the buttstock is affixed?
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I sit happily corrected.
The reasonableness of the ATF in this regard is unnerving. :laugh:
As for AR pistol/rifle, this bit seems to say yes:
a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made
when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a
barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration
not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).
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In my life, being a court employee, I'm guessing that civil unrest of this nature means more work for me, which means I get to go to work. And, if I have to go to work, that means I want a handgun. 9mm would be my choice, simply because I have more 9mm trigger time than any other centerfire semi-auo pistol. Gun won't do me any good if I have to leave it at home. And, if I'm driving myself to work, a pistol is an easier weapon to use in a vehicle.
Now, for fun, the OP says that each individual can own one gun. That means that my wife can also own one gun, as can each of her parents who will come stay with us to combine our resources. So, in that case, we'll add a pair of M4geries and a Mossberg 590, please. Actually, on second thought, instead of the shotgun, let my mother-in-law have a 9mm version of the M4gery. Same manual of arms, less recoil and blast. She's 5'0" and weights 125lbs. :lol:
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You can't buy a brain at the gun shop.
=D
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Well you did state that there was a breakdown and I'm assuming the LEOs and other authority figures have fled.
A short barreled shotgun 12gauge and as much oo buck as I can find. And whatever auto rifle I could get my hands on, by any means. Any grenade launchers out there?
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Well if everyone else is breaking the law why do I have to follow it? So, I'll stick to my closet from hell from which may emanate AP, tracer, slugs, buck, who knows, depends on what kinda mood I'm in! =D A situation like in the OP just needs a neighborhood watch. A little proactive planning, a night scope, suppressor, bolt .22 and some 60gr Aguila can make a neighborhood a lot more friendly. =D
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i would feel terribly undergunned if i didn't have a rifle. in situation described i would expect you are looking at every stranger as a potential killer, and would not want to approach anyone that you didn't know. if cheap were a priority, a simple .22 carbine with interchangable mag and scope would give me more security than a close-up weapon like a handgun. if the price of ammo and gun were less of an issue, the hk-93 would be hard to beat. if weight were not a factor, the hk-91.
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This Sig 556 pistol. Middle class can still buy this if the circumstances dictate. And since it's a somewhat lawless place anyway, I'd make a detachable stock for it.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.luckycouple.com/photos/guns/sig_556_pistol_00.JPG&imgrefurl=http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/45154-got-sig-556-pistol-first-impression.html&h=480&w=640&sz=212&tbnid=rbFwanhaTlnq2M:&tbnh=92&tbnw=123&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsig%2B556%2Bpistol%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=sig+556+pistol&docid=fxMvLk1KTHlQDM&sa=X&ei=GgbHTrO_Meak2gXlkuXDDw&ved=0CDIQ9QEwAw&dur=1321
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As much as I'd like to categorize brains as a firearm they are not. You can't buy a brain at the gun shop.
ah you asked about top choice weapons
not specifically firearms, I've been told my mind is particularly dangerous.
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in situation described i would expect you are looking at every stranger as a potential killer
Not a bad plan, anyway ;)
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I think the problem with det cord you were looking for is that because it does not propel a projectile due to the explosive combustion of a chemical propellant it is not a firearm.
stay safe.
I didn't realize det cord was a high explosive since I've never played with any. And yes, I'm looking for answers that involved projectile weapons just as I stated in my original question.
I currently live in Kabul so Washington D.C. would definitely be less safe if I moved.
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ar15.com contains a wealth of good information. (It also includes some silly K-Mart Kommando and uber tactical Mall Ninja stuff, so read with a discerning eye.)
The best video I've come across for assembling an AR is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA_Vkb2UB1w
Thanks to you good sir.
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I would have to give serious thought to a 3-4" .357 revolver. I rarely feel undergunned with one of these on me.
This, plus ammo is much more available than any other centerfire caliber.
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As one who came to owning guns later in life (my lifelong curiosity in owning a gun became reality after 9/11) my choice(s) were rather generic.
I bought a 1911 and became very proficient with it in IDPA style training. These days I'm more prone to grab my commander sized 1911 if I'm range bound.
I bought a Remington 870 Police Magnum and have shot it enough to feel comfortable and confident with it as an "option".
My AR15 (16" barrel) has been flawless with m855, m193 and Winchester white box, have some of each on hand. It's hard to miss with the EOTech on it, at the range I just use the irons, as using the EOTech on a straight range gets boring quickly. Don't get a chance to shoot it much living in Chicagoland.
That is basically my "go to" armory in the event of total societal collapse.
Being proficient with the use of any one of them would work in an urban enviro, though the pistol seems more practical to me for city self defense, especially if on a tight budget.
Don't shoot your wad on bling, buy affordable and use the saved cash for training and ammo costs.
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http://youtu.be/bVPLdRReUZ8
(Except not with blanks.)
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http://youtu.be/bVPLdRReUZ8
(Except not with blanks.)
Might be a bit of a hassle to drag to the grocery store...
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I didn't realize det cord was a high explosive since I've never played with any.
Very much so, it is either used as a tool to detonate lots of spread out other explosives at the same time, or standalone for lighter duty demolition work.
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Might be a bit of a hassle to drag to the grocery store...
As long as the grocery store is within its line of sight, your buddies can cover you.