Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: RevDisk on December 19, 2011, 12:46:29 PM
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http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/17/9528197-the-war-is-over-last-us-soldiers-leave-iraq
http://news.yahoo.com/nearly-nine-years-u-withdraws-iraq-043831767.html
http://www.startribune.com/world/135826958.html?source=error
Thankfully, it's over.
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Amen, now it is time to bail on the other POS country we are stuck in right now.
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Civil War in 5.....4......3......
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Over? Is it, really?
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Our "official" military mission in the country, other than Embassy duty, has ended.
State department is now running the show with their employees and contractors.
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Our "official" military mission in the country, other than Embassy duty, has ended.
State department is now running the show with their employees and contractors.
Yeah... all what? 10-20,000 of them? :angel:
I don't trust NBC or Ted Koppel farther than I could throw them, but the segment I saw where he rode along in the 6 vehicle/helicopter motorcade in Baghdad just to take two Civillian State Department contractors engaged in literacy development to a meeting with Iraqi officials was kind of... [tinfoil]
Although, both, one especially, were pretty darn hawt. I wouldn't want to see them fall into the hands of AQ or some jihadis. >:D
The mission outside Basra (I think?) that had these big anti-mortar canopies, then these apartment/office buildings built underneath them made of stacked connex boxes looked like something out of Firefly/Serenity.
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Yeah, we're still stuck in those 3rd world quagmires of Germany, Japan, and Korea. Wow, making someplace into a functional nation is hard. How about we just spend all our money kill a bunch of ourselves and then leave? I'll file this under snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
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"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."
...unless you go a third time, and then ...yeah...what??
It's been "Mission Accomplished", then the "End Of Military Combat Mission in Iraq", now "Withdrawal of US military personnel". All with the same result: WE'RE STILL THERE in the thousands.
May I ask just how many "contractors" of the expensive kind are going in now???
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Hey French the Iraqi's wanted us out. We got out. If the South Korean government told us to get out we would get out. They asked us to move away from Seoul and we did.
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Hey French the Iraqi's wanted us out. We got out. If the South Korean government told us to get out we would get out. They asked us to move away from Seoul and we did.
That is a TELLING difference between the American "Empire" and any other.
Too bad the rest of the world that likes to protest and burn our flags doesn't pay attention to it. It would be interesting if an RP presidency did happen, and we did 'take our ball and go home' in a bunch of these places.
I wonder how many folks would change their minds after it was too late? =D
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^If wishes were fences and empty bases.
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That is a TELLING difference between the American "Empire" and any other.
Yeah, I thought an empire was supposed to profit from its conquests ???
;/
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Hey French the Iraqi's wanted us out. We got out. If the South Korean government told us to get out we would get out. They asked us to move away from Seoul and we did.
True enough -- but the primary reason was Obama mucked up trying to establishment a status of forces agreement with the Iraqi government.
OTOH .... maybe they just didn't trust him....... :-X
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True enough -- but the primary reason was Obama mucked up trying to establishment a status of forces agreement with the Iraqi government.
OTOH .... maybe they just didn't trust him....... :-X
So the Iraqis wanted us there while Bush was in charge but not after???
The Iraqis have never wanted Ameican troops stationed there. They just weren't capable of forcing us to leave. The expiration of the Status of forces agreement allowed them to get what they always wanted.
The infrastructure and civil society have been decimated by the war. Years of occupation did not rebuild them.
Iraqis have fewer services, more violence, and more sectarian tension today than before the war. Their government will now proceed to cozy up even more closely with Iran.
Is there any light that could cause this to reflect a win?
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Iraqis have fewer services, more violence, and more sectarian tension today than before the war. Their government will now proceed to cozy up even more closely with Iran.
Only if you omit the violence committed by Hussein.
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Only if you omit the violence committed by Hussein.
That would be including Hussein
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That would be including Hussein
Somehow unlikely, what with the prison cleansing, the suppression of various uprising in the mid-90's, etc.
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Interesting that the day after we leave the Sunni VP has a warrant issued for his arrest.
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Iraqis have fewer services...
DeSelby, you made this point months ago, and I presented concrete evidence that your statement was false. Apparently you're just shooting from the hip once again with this. If that's the case, why should I believe the rest of what you say?
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DeSelby, you made this point months ago, and I presented concrete evidence that your statement was false. Apparently you're just shooting from the hip once again with this. If that's the case, why should I believe the rest of what you say?
Yeah, no - You're recalling a discussion about life expectancies, which, btw, you misinterpreted - this is about raw numbers of people killed.
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So the Iraqis wanted us there while Bush was in charge but not after???
The Iraqis have never wanted Ameican troops stationed there. They just weren't capable of forcing us to leave. The expiration of the Status of forces agreement allowed them to get what they always wanted.
The infrastructure and civil society have been decimated by the war. Years of occupation did not rebuild them.
Iraqis have fewer services, more violence, and more sectarian tension today than before the war. Their government will now proceed to cozy up even more closely with Iran.
Is there any light that could cause this to reflect a win?
And, this has to do with Obama's failure to get an agreement to the status of forces .... exactly, how? [tinfoil] [popcorn]
DeSelby, you made this point months ago, and I presented concrete evidence that your statement was false. Apparently you're just shooting from the hip once again with this. If that's the case, why should I believe the rest of what you say?
I don't think DeSelby has ever stopped drinking kool aid long enough to figure out there are many other liquids available that provide better nourishment and have fewer nasty after-effects..... [tinfoil]
If I'd known there were not going to be any WMDs there when we started the Iraq War I wouldn't have thought it smart to go there either, but it seems to me we've had enough contractors over there long enough to give the people a good chance in so far as infrastructure is concerned.
I am far less sanguine about how things will work out with regards to Iran.
The Iraqis have never wanted Ameican troops stationed there.
Yeah and I wish we'd only send them to places which had sent us an invite in the first place...... [tinfoil] [tinfoil]
As far as a "win" is concerned, if anything Obama has if anything made more certain than otherwise that this would be a loss........ >:D :facepalm:
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Wait, wait.
De Selby used the words 'civil society' in this contest?
Are you implying there was a civil society in a Ba'athist state?
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Who the **** knows what DeSelby was implying, or stating. I think he was describing conditions on the Planet Romulus.....but that's just my cynical nature.
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I thought that the US military has been using the same Status of Forces Agreement for decades. Is the proposed one with Iraq any different than previous versions, and is that difference directly attributable to the President?
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Yeah, no - You're recalling a discussion about life expectancies, which, btw, you misinterpreted - this is about raw numbers of people killed.
DeSelby, I posted data about electrical power, and all sorts of things. Do a search.
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I think for the most part we had no SOFA with Iraq until later in the war. What ever one there was expires on the 31st and had to be renewed. Iraq wasn't willing to extend the immunity part of the agreement.
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Wait, wait.
De Selby used the words 'civil society' in this contest?
Are you implying there was a civil society in a Ba'athist state?
You might be able to call it pure barbarism if you didn't have the Shia fundamentalist gangs that now rule Iraq to compare it to - which makes sense, since their main influence in political theory has been the Iranian "revolutionary" state.
Can anyone find an article citing iraqis who think life in Iraq is much better now?
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Do you understand what the term 'civil society' means?
How many private charities, NGOs, and citizen's activist groups that were not actually an arm of the government operated in Ba'athist Iraq?
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If I'd known there were not going to be any WMDs there when we started the Iraq War I wouldn't have thought it smart to go there either, but it seems to me we've had enough contractors over there long enough to give the people a good chance in so far as infrastructure is concerned.
I am far less sanguine about how things will work out with regards to Iran.
Meh...
If we hadn't gone into Iraq, the American Left would have themselves seized on all flimsy Iraq/terror/9-11 connections, and instead of blasting Bush for "Fake War for Oil! Halliburton ZOMG One Eleventy 11!!!1111!! Why are we in Iraq when all our focus should be on Afghanistan?" we'd have been subjected to eight years of "Kid Gloves/Hands Off for Evil Saddam for Oil! Haliiburton ZOMG One Eeleventy Ignoring Human Rights Abuses! Why are we in Afghanistan when we should be attacking Iraq! 11!!!1111!!" instead.
The American Right is far... far, far from perfect. And I do believe that Bush & Co. definitely "saw what they wanted to see" in Iraq to some degree to have the war and occupation. However, the rest of the world, many of them in nations that aren't exactly our fans "saw it too".
However, the American Left is completely devoid of any moral compass, and has lost even the pretense of logic or honesty. The initial charitable foundation of Leftisim, "to give some poor guy, some rich guy's stuff" has used that to devolve into an ends-justify-the means mentality
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Can anyone find an article citing iraqis who think life in Iraq is much better now?
I'm sure all the Iraqis will be as objective and insightful as you are.... ;) :angel:
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Can anyone find an article citing iraqis who think life in Iraq is much better now?
I will do you one better. First hand account. I have been there and talked to the Iraqi people and 90% of the ones I talked to are glad Saddam is gone and we stayed around, 8% or so are glad he is gone but rather we hadn't stayed and the other 2% either wanted him to stay in power or really didn't give a rat's ass one way or another.
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I will do you one better. First hand account. I have been there and talked to the Iraqi people and 90% of the ones I talked to are glad Saddam is gone and we stayed around, 8% or so are glad he is gone but rather we hadn't stayed and the other 2% either wanted him to stay in power or really didn't give a rat's ass one way or another.
Yeah, what I might say to a furriner carrying a gun :P
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Yeah, what I might say to a furriner carrying a gun :P
Take it at face value.
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Meh...
If we hadn't gone into Iraq, the American Left would have themselves seized on all flimsy Iraq/terror/9-11 connections, and instead of blasting Bush for "Fake War for Oil! Halliburton ZOMG One Eleventy 11!!!1111!! Why are we in Iraq when all our focus should be on Afghanistan?" we'd have been subjected to eight years of "Kid Gloves/Hands Off for Evil Saddam for Oil! Haliiburton ZOMG One Eeleventy Ignoring Human Rights Abuses! Why are we in Afghanistan when we should be attacking Iraq! 11!!!1111!!" instead.
The American Right is far... far, far from perfect. And I do believe that Bush & Co. definitely "saw what they wanted to see" in Iraq to some degree to have the war and occupation. However, the rest of the world, many of them in nations that aren't exactly our fans "saw it too".
However, the American Left is completely devoid of any moral compass, and has lost even the pretense of logic or honesty. The initial charitable foundation of Leftisim, "to give some poor guy, some rich guy's stuff" has used that to devolve into an ends-justify-the means mentality
The American Left is interested in never-ending orgasm, not much else.
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The All Americans Left are is interested in never-ending orgasms, not much else.
FIFY >:D
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Now that you mention it... >:D
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I will do you one better. First hand account. I have been there and talked to the Iraqi people and 90% of the ones I talked to are glad Saddam is gone and we stayed around, 8% or so are glad he is gone but rather we hadn't stayed and the other 2% either wanted him to stay in power or really didn't give a rat's ass one way or another.
If the numbers are that overwhelming, where are these people now? Also, can you imagine how being asked the question by soldiers (who have overwhelming force at hand) might influence the answer?
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If the numbers are that overwhelming, where are these people now? Also, can you imagine how being asked the question by soldiers (who have overwhelming force at hand) might influence the answer?
What do you mean where are those people now?
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Do you understand what the term 'civil society' means?
How many private charities, NGOs, and citizen's activist groups that were not actually an arm of the government operated in Ba'athist Iraq?
How is that a useful measure? Lesotho has lots of NGOs.
Citizen activist groups are treated like they were under the Ba'ath regime. Arrested, tortured, and abused when engaged in protest.
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What do you mean where are those people now?
If its 90 percent, you would think at least a sizeable number of Iraqis would have been out there calling for the US to stay - no political group statement, no official, no protests in the streets, nothing. You can hardly find an interview with anyone who thinks Iraq is better for the occupation.
Don't you think that's odd if 90 percent of Iraqis were in favour?
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wmenorr67, don't you understand? You're not the New York Times. Who's he going to believe, the NYT or your lyin' eyes?
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How is that a useful measure? Lesotho has lots of NGOs.
Civil society requires the existence of citizen activist groups, both political and apolitical ones. If all public activity is reserved to the state and the ruling party, you have no civil society.
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http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/13/what-iraqis-think-of-the-american-withdrawal-baghdad/
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This one was interesting:
1. It is a pleasant surprise for us that the Americans are leaving. God willing, things will be better because the Americans are the only excuse that the terrorist groups, Al Qaeda and the others, have to continue. They are behind all the sectarian conflicts.
Yes... I'm sure the terrorists will calm down once we leave
:facepalm:
I won't weigh in on this other than to say:
I saw first hand, in my AO, improvement of Iraqi life post-saddam. I saw first hand the destitute, poor, and oppressed have some opportunities for the first time in their lives.
Many many different things have been said about the worth of the war in general, and I can't speak to that. But I can say that, what my unit did in our area, made a definite positive concrete contribution to Iraqi quality of life. We helped people.
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If its 90 percent, you would think at least a sizeable number of Iraqis would have been out there calling for the US to stay - no political group statement, no official, no protests in the streets, nothing. You can hardly find an interview with anyone who thinks Iraq is better for the occupation.
Don't you think that's odd if 90 percent of Iraqis were in favour?
Because it was time for us to leave. We stayed as long as the Iraqi government wanted us there.
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I saw first hand, in my AO, improvement of Iraqi life post-saddam. I saw first hand the destitute, poor, and oppressed have some opportunities for the first time in their lives.
Many many different things have been said about the worth of the war in general, and I can't speak to that. But I can say that, what my unit did in our area, made a definite positive concrete contribution to Iraqi quality of life. We helped people.
And that was the reason for the war? =|
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He said they'd helped people, not that it was the reason for the war.
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I'd love to see what a truly anonymous poll with a bit of scientific rigor would say.
Even if Saddam's goons, blew up your house, and were about to rape your wife and daughters, and cut your throat, and the U.S. came in and shot them all, and provided your family with medical care and a new house...
It's not exactly the "PC" thing in that part of the world to say much of anything that's pro-U.S., and put your name on it.
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How would we feel if the Chinese came in and shot/hung all the IRS and ATF agents ???
=|
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And that was the reason for the war? =|
Nope, the reason for the war was Saddam's pursuit of NBC weapons, and proof of that pursuit was found, even if it wasn't the huge stockpiles that the administration led us to believe he had.
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How would we feel if the Chinese came in and shot/hung all the IRS and ATF agents ???
=|
Ask me that question when the IRS and ATF drain marshes and force an entire culture into starvation, gas their own people en-masse, and murder dissidents.
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How would we feel if the Chinese came in and shot/hung all the IRS and ATF agents ???
=|
That their methods were a bit extreme, but we agree with the overall goal?
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Ask me that question when the IRS and ATF drain marshes and force an entire culture into starvation, gas their own people en-masse, and murder dissidents.
Waco ... =|
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That their methods were a bit extreme, but we agree with the overall goal?
Ok, so you welcome our new overlords =D
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A rare, relatively isolated occurance != a continued pattern of brutality and murder
If i add this smiley, does my opinion have more weight?
=|
I get what you're saying... but come on dude. The US isn't even comparible
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I'd also like to point out that publicly disagreeing with administration policy on teh interwebz would be a very different prospect in a saddam-led iraq than it is here in the US
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I'd also like to point out that publicly disagreeing with administration policy on teh interwebz would be a very different prospect in a saddam-led iraq than it is here in the US
Yeah, he was a certified bad guy.
Also, a US ally at one time. Didn't we sell him the gas that was used on the Kurds...?
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So, the fact that a previous administration made some huge errors means we should not attempt to rectify them?
By that logic, any nation we've ever previously had a relationship with is forever immune to consequences when they do terrible things
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So, the fact that a previous administration made some huge errors means we should not attempt to rectify them?
By that logic, any nation we've ever previously had a relationship with is forever immune to consequences when they do terrible things
That's what administrations do, make huge errors =(
Anyway, I am glad the most of our folks are out of harm's way now.
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Was it an error when we were involved in a cold war? It's akin to being allied with Pakistan now, despite the fact that they're not really our friends, but we need them (maybe).
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Was it an error when we were involved in a cold war? It's akin to being allied with Pakistan now, despite the fact that they're not really our friends, but we need them (maybe).
You know the saying about keeping friends close and enemies closer.
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You know the saying about keeping friends close and enemies closer.
Yeah, but you do that and some guy gives you an orange, you wind up standing with him in a bar, and then some wiseguys try to strangle you.
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How would we feel if the Chinese came in and shot/hung all the IRS and ATF agents ???
=|
How do you feel about France's participation in the War of Independence?
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How do you feel about France's participation in the War of Independence?
I don't get the connection ... had the Kurds declared independence ???
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Yeah, he was a certified bad guy.
Also, a US ally at one time. Didn't we sell him the gas that was used on the Kurds...?
According to SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute)
America provided 1% of Iraq's Weapons.
57%, the majority were provided by the former Soviet Union. The next highest was France at 13% followed by China at 12%. Brazil, astoundingly, sold them 2% or twice what we did. BTW, Libya tied with us at 1%
I don't recall, specifically, who sold Iraq the gas he used on the Kurds, but IIRC it is essentially concentrated insecticide and is not difficult to make at all. I think we may have provided a "precursor product."
Aliiances -- shockingly -- change. In WW1 we were allied with Italy, then we fought Italy in WW2 until it surrendered. We were ostensibly allied with the USSR during WW2 as well and look how fast THAT changed when the Nazis went belly-up.
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How do you feel about France's participation in the War of Independence?
Do you think France participated because they wanted to see the US as an independent nation?.....or because they had a national interest in weakening England?......
Intent means a lot.....
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According to SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute)
America provided 1% of Iraq's Weapons.
57%, the majority were provided by the former Soviet Union. The next highest was France at 13% followed by China at 12%. Brazil, astoundingly, sold them 2% or twice what we did. BTW, Libya tied with us at 1%
I don't recall, specifically, who sold Iraq the gas he used on the Kurds, but IIRC it is essentially concentrated insecticide and is not difficult to make at all. I think we may have provided a "precursor product."
Aliiances -- shockingly -- change. In WW1 we were allied with Italy, then we fought Italy in WW2 until it surrendered. We were ostensibly allied with the USSR during WW2 as well and look how fast THAT changed when the Nazis went belly-up.
Don't be realistic, dude. It ruins all the fun.
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How do you feel about France's participation in the War of Independence?
And we have re-paid that debt over and over and over and over and.....................
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1. It is a pleasant surprise for us that the Americans are leaving. God willing, things will be better because the Americans are the only excuse that the terrorist groups, Al Qaeda and the others, have to continue. They are behind all the sectarian conflicts.
Eh, not so much.
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Do you think France participated because they wanted to see the US as an independent nation?.....or because they had a national interest in weakening England?......
Intent means a lot.....
Yes, and?
The fact of the matter is, if France and Holland were led by non-interventionists, there'd be no Constitution, no American independence, no individual liberty. Interventionism does have it's shining successes.
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Aliiances -- shockingly -- change. In WW1 we were allied with Italy, then we fought Italy in WW2 until it surrendered. We were ostensibly allied with the USSR during WW2 as well and look how fast THAT changed when the Nazis went belly-up.
Beware of foreign entanglements ;)
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Beware of foreign entanglements ;)
How about "Beware of foreign wars?"
However, had we not fought the nazis, the european continent might now be ruled by some incrdibly nasty thugs. And I have no desire to guess how far out their influence would have spread since 1945.
What is meant by "entanglement" anyway? No trade with other countries? [tinfoil] Nah, I don't think so.
Not so long after 1776 we went after the Barbary Pirates, and then there was the War of 1812.....we weren't exactly well prepared for THAT war. Was it a "foreign entanglement?" How about the Barbary Wars?
If we were never to ally ourselves with a country in need, as was Britain in 1941, what kind of ally would we be? And remember; two can play that game. What would happen should we wind up in need of another country's assistance in the future? Would they not recall the last time they needed our help and we'd responded; "sorry, some dead white guys who founded America warned us about foreign entanglements, so you're on your own." What then?
I think that philosophy might have worked in 1776. But I have serious questions about it working well now.
It is impossible for a republic to remain long in the quiet enjoyment of her freedom within her limited confines, for even if she does not molest others, others will molest her, and from being thus molested will spring the desire and the necessity of conquests.
I suspect the Grand Master of Dirty Politics probably would agree.......... >:D
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What is meant by "entanglement" anyway?
GW explained it pretty well.
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Beware of foreign entanglements ;)
And apparently never ever sell any guns and ammo overseas for fear it may one day some future decade from now be used against us.
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Anyway, I am glad the most of our folks are out of harm's way now.
Honestly, I'm not. It's going to be much worse next time. And there will be a next time.
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Honestly, I'm not. It's going to be much worse next time. And there will be a next time.
Probably. Historically, we've never been very good at staying out of other people's messes. Sometimes this is good, sometimes this is bad.
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Honestly, I'm not. It's going to be much worse next time. And there will be a next time.
Only because the mouth breathing masses fall for the politics of fear. Next stop, Iran! After all, they're scary and mooslim and brown!
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Only because the mouth breathing masses fall for the politics of fear. Next stop, Iran! After all, they're scary and mooslim and brown!
In fairness, it's not schools will exactly teach history. They will especially not teach useful history.
"A rule of thumb is when it comes to modern Islam is that within the fundamentalist ranks, Sunni will travel to blow things up and Shiites will generally not. However, Sunni controlled governments regularly bribe Department of State employees and appointed officials. Ergo, Sunni countries are typically allies of the US on paper, and *expletive deleted*it countries are enemies. Other point of consideration is this applies to what the locals think as 'their turf' which does not always correspond to lines on a map."
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In fairness, it's not schools will exactly teach history. They will especially not teach useful history.
"A rule of thumb is when it comes to modern Islam is that within the fundamentalist ranks, Sunni will travel to blow things up and Shiites will generally not. However, Sunni controlled governments regularly bribe Department of State employees and appointed officials. Ergo, Sunni countries are typically allies of the US on paper, and *expletive deleted*it countries are enemies. Other point of consideration is this applies to what the locals think as 'their turf' which does not always correspond to lines on a map."
Probably explains a lot about Iran too. The way I see it, the Iranian (Revolutionary) government almost has to engage in all the saber-rattling to maintain "A constant state of external crisis" to keep control over a predominantly *expletive deleted*it population that probably isn't all that predisposed to butt heads with the U.S. or Israel. Through proxy-war or otherwise.
In a way, Iran is the proverbial exception that proves the rule...
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Only because the mouth breathing masses fall for the politics of fear. Next stop, Iran! After all, they're scary and mooslim and brown!
We heard that the last few years of Bush's reign. And Iran gave us plenty of excuses to make war. We didn't then; what makes you think we will now?
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We heard that the last few years of Bush's reign. And Iran gave us plenty of excuses to make war. We didn't then; what makes you think we will now?
Because the Democrats always do the dastardly things they accuse the Republicans of doing.
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Because the Democrats always do the dastardly things they accuse the Republicans of doing.
OK, good point.