Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on January 15, 2012, 09:07:41 PM
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I'm sure you've all seen or heard at least something about the cruise liner that struck a reef off Italy and capsized. Some of the stories border on ridiculous after seeing the photos in daylight, but I guess if it was dark the folks on board may not have realized they could dang near step off the ship onto the shore.
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Seeing that photo reinforces in my mind the nagging thought I've had for a number of years, since seeing a couple of those big cruise liners anchored near a port where I happened to be vacationing (on land): They are virtually ALL superstructure, and NO hull. There's just not a lot under the water. I always thought they looked top-heavy. Now I know why. The Mark II-Mod 2 micrometer eyeball never fails -- they look top-heavy because they ARE top-heavy.
Many years ago I was part of a student tour that traveled from New York to Italy on an older, small-ish Italian liner that had been chartered by a company that did nothing but provide transportation for student groups. Our ship was tiny compared to these modern cruise ships. My voyage was in 1960, and the ship I was on was old and considered small even then. But it did have one thing going for it -- it was a real ship. We hit a pretty severe storm about halfway across. It was severe enough that the cabin stewards bolted solid steel cover plates over the round porthole in the cabin I shared with three other guys from my group. And our porthole was normally well above the water line.
Just about everyone was seasick. I wasn't -- but I was already a sailor and sailing instructor so I was accustomed to rough seas on boats. At that, I couldn't stay in my cabin -- I had to spend the night on deck, upright, to keep from tossing my cookies. I was on a SHIP, and we were being tossed around like a cork. I shudder to think what one of these modern cruise barges would do in a storm like that -- I rather think it would probably turn turtle and sink.
Remind me never to take a cruise (not that I could ever afford one).
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What is it with the cruises out of Italy? :facepalm:
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Seeing that photo reinforces in my mind the nagging thought I've had for a number of years, since seeing a couple of those big cruise liners anchored near a port where I happened to be vacationing (on land): They are virtually ALL superstructure, and NO hull. There's just not a lot under the water. I always thought they looked top-heavy. Now I know why. The Mark II-Mod 2 micrometer eyeball never fails -- they look top-heavy because they ARE top-heavy.
Maybe they should make them more like aircraft carriers. My dad rode out a typhoon in one back in '72. He said it wasn't too bad, though he'd have hated to be in one of the destroyer escorts; apparently, they were listing so far over he was wondering why they hadn't capsized. :O
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What is it with the cruises out of Italy? :facepalm:
Some years back, shortly after I joined the workforce, I was talking to the nurse at work. She was Swedish (Yeah, that's right, we had a Swedish nurse. But she was considerably older than I was :'( ) and she told me that one of the radio men on the Stockholm was a family friend.
Stockholm was the ship that collided with the Andrea Doria.
He said that the first wave of lifeboats from the Andrea Doria was filled not with passengers, but with crew. :O
That's right, the first ones off the doomed liner were the crew - they left the passengers to fend for themselves. In fact, crew from the Stockholm had to make trips to the Andrea Doria to rescue passengers. (The wikipedia article on the Andrea Doria notes that "the crew had already abandoned ship in the first lifeboats." The same article also refers to the ship as "top heavy.")
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They're not actually top heavy. There's a WHOLE bunch of heavy stuff below the waterline. Looking at that pic, that boat broached on the rocks, then capsized.
ETA: Which is not to say there isn't a righting moment. It's just bigger then you probably think. Case in point: an LCU-2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Utility#LCU_2000_class) will recover, light ship, from a 68 degree roll. It's easy to underestimate a ships displacement.
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Apparently, the captain on this ship wasted no time saving himself. He's now charged with manslaughter and dereliction of duty from what I read...
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Worst storm I ever road through was "the Perfect Storm" in Nov. '91. The one they made the movie about.
At 400' keel depth we were still taking 10-15 degree rolls. Of course we still just had to go to PD and copy the broadcast.
As for taking a cruise? Ain't gonna happen, I've seen the competency level of some of those outfits, the Italian incident is just what I would consider typical, not to mention all the times you hear about all the passengers getting sick.
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Well, maybe people will sharpen up now at the abandon ship drill, which incidentally had not been conducted yet. The big thing I see aside from individuals panicking, was that the ship really had no clue as to the accuracy of their manifest. Finding survivors, then dead bodies inside after more than a day and they apparently didn't know who they were looking for? I usually have some sort of abandon ship bag with me. Not real good because no personal beacon, and not much signal devices you can get through security on the cruise ships, but I have something and a plan. I never felt the need on a carrier, but I started keeping a prepped bag on the amphib I was on.
Now, mind you, I love all the Marines I've worked with/for. But I never let an abandon ship drill pass without asking one I knew just one question. Do you know why they put all the Marine abandon ship stations aft? .... None did. To slow the screws down before we get there!!! One can only hope that this spread like the viral scuttlebutt that permeates naval life. >:D One poor group of LCPLs who worked for me were pretty new to ship riding. About a week into sea time and a heavy drill schedule, probably for some NAVSEA cert, I walk into a shop and see them with their life jackets? WTF?? Well, they didn't understand the announcement about the ship being put into a simulated training environment, one where all word would be passed without being preceded by "This is a drill..." Those poor guys thought that the ship had been trying to catch fire and sink everyday they'd been on it.
On panic, The USMC is well trained and would no doubt do well if we went swimming. Especially since their water survival is way more hard core than the Navy. Go figger, we take guys 1,000 miles from land that can't swim. ;/ However, on two occasions where we came real close to burning the ship to the waterline for real I could see the fear in the MEUSOC grunts. They were real unhappy to be there. Pretty much forcibly moved each other out of our way. So, I can imagine that a herd of untrained tourists would panic at the drop of a hat on a ship like that.
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we take guys 1,000 miles from land that can't swim
Land is only 2 or 3 miles away ;) :P
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:laugh: Yeah, but the coconut and palm frond girls down there always seemed so cold.
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Land is only 2 or 3 miles away ;) :P
I read where a young lady on this ship was interviewed. She had basically said "screw it" when she saw the disorganized fight for space on the life rafts and decided to swim to shore. Good on her for avoiding the mob, though if she had done that in some parts of the ocean, like off Hawaii, she might have ended up in Alaska. :)
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Key word there is "young" lady. The typical cruise ship demographic would be pretty screwed in most swim for it deals.
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Key word there is "young" lady. The typical cruise ship demographic would be pretty screwed in most swim for it deals.
Unless your name is "Bob" :lol:
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Land is only 2 or 3 miles away ;) :P
The rule is, "You're never more than 7 miles from land, straight down." ;)
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The Italian press have released a partial transcript of the ship-to-shore-to-ship communications between coastguard and captain:
http://www.canada.com/news/News+transcript+Coast+Guard+orders+Captain+Francesco+Schettino+back+Costa+Concordia/6007749/story.html
PA: I understand that. Listen to me, there are people that are getting off using the rope ladder on the stern side, you go back there and you go up that ladder the opposite way, you go onboard the ship and you tell me how many people [are there] And what they need. You tell me if there are children, women or people that need assistance and you give me a number for each one of these categories is that clear? Look Schettino, you may have saved yourself from the sea but will put you through a lot of trouble it will be very bad for you! Get back on board for [expletive]'s sake!!!
:facepalm:
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And also:
Captain: Do you realize it's dark out here and we can't see anything?
PA: What do you want to do ? Do you want to go home? It's dark so you want to go home? Get on the stern of that ship climb the ladder and tell me what can be done, how many people are there and what they need. Right now!
This guy is toast.
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And also:
This guy is toast.
El Capitan is completely toasted.
Seems that he was doing the naval equivalent of a 'fly by' to the island for one of the waiters whose parents lived there.
Dead man walking.....
I find it interesting that he joined Costa as a safety officer in 2002, and was promoted to captain in 2006, receiving command of the Concordia at that time.
He must have had one heck of a resume'.
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http://news.yahoo.com/coast-guard-ordered-ship-captain-back-board-124134509.html
Transcription of the radio conversation between the ship captain and the Italian Coast Guard:
Coast Guard: Hello.
Captain: Good evening, chief.
Coast Guard: Listen, this is De Falco from Livorno. Am I speaking with the captain?
Captain: Good evening, Chief De Falco.
Coast Guard: Tell me your name, please.
Captain: I am Captain Schettino, chief.
Coast Guard: Schettino?
Captain: Yes.
Coast Guard: Listen, Schettino. There are people trapped on board. Now, you go with your lifeboat. Under the bow of the ship, on the right side, there is a ladder. You climb on that ladder and go on board the ship. Go on board the ship and get back to me and tell me how many people are there. Is that clear. I am recording this conversation, Captain Schettino.
(Captain tries to speak but Coast Guard can't hear him clearly. Voices in the Coast Guard room.)
Coast Guard: Speak up! (captain tries to speak) Captain, put your hand over the microphone and speak in a louder voice!
Captain: At this moment the ship is listing.
Coast Guard: There are people who are coming down the ladder on the bow. Go back in the opposite direction, get back on the ship, and tell me how many people there are and what they have on board. Tell me if there are children, women and what type of help they need. And you tell me the number of each of these categories. Is that clear?
Listen Schettino, perhaps you have saved yourself from the sea but I will make you look very bad. I will make you pay for this. Dammit, go back on board!
(Noise can be heard in the background. Apparently other Coast Guard officers are shouting to each other in the same room about "the ship, the ship")
Captain: Please ...
Coast Guard: There is no 'please' about it. Get back on board. Assure me you are going back on board!
Captain: I'm in a lifeboat, I am under here. I am not going anywhere. I am here.
Coast Guard: What are you doing, captain?
Captain: I am here to coordinate the rescue...
Coast Guard (interrupting): What are you coordinating there! Get on board! Coordinate the rescue from on board! Are you refusing?
Captain: No, I am not refusing.
Coast Guard: Are you refusing to go aboard, captain? Tell me the reason why you are not going back on board.
Captain: (inaudible)... there is a another lifeboat...
Coast Guard (interrupting, yelling): You get back on board! That is an order! There is nothing else for you to consider. You have sounded the "Abandon Ship." Now I am giving the orders. Get back on board. Is that clear? Don't you hear me?
Captain: I am going aboard.
Coast Guard: Go! Call me immediately when you are on board. My rescue people are in front of the bow.
Captain: Where is your rescue craft?
Coast Guard: My rescue craft is at the bow. Go! There are already bodies, Schettino. Go!
Captain: How many bodies are there?
Coast Guard: I don't know! ... Christ, you should be the one telling me that!
Captain: Do you realize that it is dark and we can't see anything?
Coast Guard: So, what do you want to do, to go home, Schettino?! It's dark and you want to go home? Go to the bow of the ship where the ladder is and tell me what needs to be done, how many people there are, and what they need! Now!
Captain: My second in command is here with me.
Coast Guard: Then both of you go! Both of you! What is the name of your second in command?
Captain: His name is Dmitri (static)"
Coast Guard: What is the rest of his name? (static) You and your second in command get on board now! Is that clear?
Captain: Look, chief, I want to go aboard but the other lifeboat here has stopped and is drifting. I have called ...
Coast Guard (interrupting): You have been telling me this for an hour! Now, go aboard! Get on board, and tell me immediately how many people there are!
Captain: OK, chief.
Coast Guard: Go! Immediately!
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Captain needs to take the Japanese way out.
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What happened to a captain's sense of personal responsibility for the safety of his passengers and crew??? Did being the captain of a ship change into just a job for this guy?
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What happened to a captain's sense of personal responsibility for the safety of his passengers and crew??? Did being the captain of a ship change into just a job for this guy?
Gone, gone, gone!
I read in one report that 30 minutes after the accident, he was asking for dinner for him and his female companion.
He is fried, and rightly so.
ETA: Excellent details and pictures from this UK writeup!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2087704/Costa-Concordia-cruise-ship-captain-Francesco-Schettino-DID-abandon-ship-passengers.html
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According to one radio news report, the captain claims he fell off the ship when it began to capsize.
Somehow he wound up in a boat, from which he had to be ordered back to the ship.
This is one big mess.
The Titanic was better organized.
This has been compared to the Titanic disaster, but I think it's a little closer to The Posiedon Adventure.
Without the Maureen McGovern soundtrack, of course. [tinfoil]
What a hellish mess.
I would've thought the crew would have been better.
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Perhaps the Italian Coast Guard hearing panel can hum 'There's got to be a morning after' as they burn his maritime licensure papers in front of the captain.
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Perhaps the Italian Coast Guard hearing panel can hum 'There's got to be a morning after' as they burn his maritime licensure papers in front of the captain.
Maybe he can get a job as a dishwasher on another cruise ship :P
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Maybe he can get a job as a dishwasher on another cruise ship :P
Nah. Too afraid to fall into the wash sink.
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That'll buff right out...
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^^^^ I wonder how they will salvage the vessel. Weld a patch, pump out the water, tow it to the drydock, I guess, but I wonder if it would automatically roll upright after the water is pumped out.
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I find it interesting that he joined Costa as a safety officer in 2002, and was promoted to captain in 2006, receiving command of the Concordia at that time.
He must have had one heck of a resume'.
'Resume' is not the Italian word for 'uncle.'
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^^^^ I wonder how they will salvage the vessel. Weld a patch, pump out the water, tow it to the drydock, I guess, but I wonder if it would automatically roll upright after the water is pumped out.
Pretty much. 1st they'll pump out the remaining fuel, weld a patch and pump out the water. once the water is out it will float on it's own again.
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What happened to a captain's sense of personal responsibility for the safety of his passengers and crew??? Did being the captain of a ship change into just a job for this guy?
He is likely a coward, and as such, never had that sense of responsibility.
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^^^^ I wonder how they will salvage the vessel. Weld a patch, pump out the water, tow it to the drydock, I guess, but I wonder if it would automatically roll upright after the water is pumped out.
Ping pong balls?
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I have a friend who works security on cruise boats. He's also met this fine upstanding individual.
His reaction (and reaction of his co-workers on his FB wall) can be best summed up as: "This was to be expected."
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Ping pong balls?
Wasn't that suggested back in the early twentieth century to bring up the Titanic?
Somehow ... it doesn't seem practical -- for either ship.
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Wasn't that suggested back in the early twentieth century to bring up the Titanic?
Somehow ... it doesn't seem practical -- for either ship.
It's quite practical for this one. Don't forget that the U.S. Navy refloated a number of the ships that were sunk at Pearl Harbor -- and the salvage technology then was primitive compared to what they can do today.
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I ... don't ... think ... they ... used ... pingpong balls for the Pearl Harbor ships..... :O
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Maybe that matchstick guy can build a model of it.
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That'll buff right out...
little bondo and duct tape, good to go. The whole time I'm reading this, thinking this guy isn't Gene Hackman.
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little bondo and duct tape, good to go. The whole time I'm reading this, thinking this guy isn't Gene Hackman.
Or Totie Fields for that matter. lol
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Guys, guys, guys, put away the noose, it's just a misunderstanding.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9022170/Costa-Concordia-captain-says-he-tripped-and-fell-into-lifeboat.html
See, he just tripped and fell into the boat. Oh, and his second in command did, too. Also, his third in command. I guess they were practicing for a new "Pink Panther" movie.
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I give him an "F" in Creative Lying.
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If he was womanizing be curious if he doesn't also lose a wife besides his freedom.
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The Captain (Schettino) will probably be the fall guy.
But there is an entire system at fault and we're lucky that it happened so close to the coast
some 300 miles east from where I am (Monte Carlo). I'm working twice a week with clients coming of those boats which are huge (300 meters long = ca. 900 feet) 120000 tons top heavy and there is no way you'd jump from it when it's night and winter.
I'm making money on those boats but over all I don't like them much. 3000 paying no name tourists plus 1200 staff mostly from under developped countries and everyone is packing 150 gallons of industrial oil during one week of travel.
They found five more bodies and there are between 15 and 20 people who are still unaccounted for.
Would be nice if we could have full disclosure on why and how it happened, I'm expecting some kind of foul play somewhere - hard to believe that the captain just steered that entreprise anywhere he liked with all the technology and surveillance as if it was a private yacht.
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“Vado a bordo, cazzo”
T-shirts about the event are already out:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9022477/Costa-Concordia-Italians-buy-t-shirts-with-Get-back-on-board-for-s-sake-logo.html
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hard to believe that the captain just steered that entreprise anywhere he liked with all the technology and surveillance as if it was a private yacht.
even though hes done it before? got a thank you note from the mayor for doing it?
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hard to believe that the captain just steered that entreprise anywhere he liked with all the technology and surveillance as if it was a private yacht.
even though hes done it before? got a thank you note from the mayor for doing it?
Hold my glass of wine and watch this! =D
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Would be nice if we could have full disclosure on why and how it happened, I'm expecting some kind of foul play somewhere - hard to believe that the captain just steered that entreprise anywhere he liked with all the technology and surveillance as if it was a private yacht.
No foul play. One article cited an initial interview the captain had with the police in which he stated that he steered closer to the island than his route called for, but that he goofed and got a bit closer than he intended and he missed his timing on a turn.
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Guys, guys, guys, put away the noose, it's just a misunderstanding.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9022170/Costa-Concordia-captain-says-he-tripped-and-fell-into-lifeboat.html
See, he just tripped and fell into the boat. Oh, and his second in command did, too. Also, his third in command. I guess they were practicing for a new "Pink Panther" movie.
Yea, I saw that crappola.
He also lied and said that he deployed the anchor.
The Coast Guard's picture at his initial hearing showing the anchor was not dropped took care of that one.
Class A *expletive deleted*bag!
“Vado a bordo, cazzo”
T-shirts about the event are already out:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9022477/Costa-Concordia-Italians-buy-t-shirts-with-Get-back-on-board-for-s-sake-logo.html
Saw that, too. Cazzo being a part of he male appendage, as in [tinfoil]! =D
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At some point they will take a look at computerized navigation systems. Proximity to shore is a little disturbing.
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At some point they will take a look at computerized navigation systems. Proximity to shore is a little disturbing.
Already available and in use. Captain always has override ability.
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hard to believe that the captain just steered that entreprise anywhere he liked with all the technology and surveillance as if it was a private yacht.
even though hes done it before? got a thank you note from the mayor for doing it?
As I said: I know people who've worked for this very company and who've personally witnessed him do it before.
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Already available and in use. Captain always has override ability.
And this is why, in real Navies' and other sea-going enterprises, there's always multiple people in the loop with regards to navigation and ship's movement, that way there will hopefully be someone with the brains and balls to go "umm, yeah, we're not doing that, jack-hole."
This reminds me of an event that happened on my ship back in 2004. We were landing helos, and the Air Boss kept calling the OOD and telling him he wanted "10 more minutes" to get another bird on the deck before we'd make another maneuver. The OOD who was at the time a Naval Academy butter-bar kept caving to the AB's demand. The Conning Officer, BM1 Obrien (he was going LDO) was a little less tolerant. As the ship was being forced to continue on a steady course to accommodate the air landings and takeoffs it eventually began to stray from it's assigned maneuvering box due (you know, that little thing designed to keep us from entering into shipping paths, or hitting reefs) the Air Boss, predictably, called again saying he wanted "10 more minutes." The OOD hung up the phone and relayed this to BM1, and in a moment of awesome that I will cherish for the rest of my life, BM1 just looks at the OOD for a moment, then steps around her, flips a switch while announcing loudly "Red deck!" (the switch changed signal lights on the landing deck, his order halted all take offs and landings) and then immediately follows on with "Helm, come right to new course 120!" The Air Boss promptly called, raving at the OOD for the impertinence of changing course, but you know what? And this is also sort of the moral of this little anecdote. The Air Boss was in the wrong, and so was the OOD for going along with him. His actions were endangering the ship, but in this case, there was someone who wasn't willing to go along with the BS.
If that cruise liner had their version of BM1 Obrien handy this story wouldn't exist. Sure the Captain is a *expletive deleted*che bag, but he shouldn't be the only one getting hung out to dry. It takes more than one person to drive a ship. A Wasp-class requires no fewer than 6 people at various controls and watch stations in order to effectively move at all, let alone with any sense of order and purpose. Someone should have told this jack-hole no.
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then steps around her, flips a switch while announcing loudly "Red deck!"
:lol:
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