Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Regolith on January 18, 2012, 03:59:52 AM
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Take the quiz:
http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=cop-soldier
I only got 16 out of 21.
The scary thing is the only reason I got that high of a score is that I know enough about some of the equipment to pick out the subtleties (and I picked out one cop because of his haircut). =|
Edit: I should note that this post isn't meant for cop bashing, but rather as a reaction against the militarization of the police. The roles of the military and law enforcement are not compatible, and anything that blurs that line is extremely dangerous to both liberty and innocent lives.
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I got 15 out of 21.
The scary part is that it can be that hard to tell the cops from military.
Not a big fan of militarized police forces.
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Missed a couple. Such as the cops in full ACU with matching IBA with the side plates and epaulets. Also missed the one where the cop was sitting behind an M60 with a freaking AT-4 strapped down next to him. (Would anyone care to tell me why a police officer would ever need a damned AT-4?)
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Also 16 out of 21 . . . but on a few, the only way I could tell "cop" was by the badge or shoulder patch.
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Missed a couple. Such as the cops in full ACU with matching IBA with the side plates and epaulets. Also missed the one where the cop was sitting behind an M60 with a freaking AT-4 strapped down next to him. (Would anyone care to tell me why a police officer would ever need a damned AT-4?)
Dogs. Very dangerous. Shoot on sight, even if serving warrant to wrong house. Dog houses must be knocked out with AT4.
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13 and I should know better. However, a lot of the Soldiers weren't Soldiers, they were Marines.
I can understand where a PD would need a squad or two of "specialized" officers for certain cases. But not the whole damn force.
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12 out of 20, and there's no good way to tell.
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20 outa 21 you guys throwing it?
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Got 18 right, yea the AT-4 threw me off.
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14 out of 21. On a lot of them I had to guess based upon objects in the surroundings, as I don't know the equipment really well. I also figured that the guys with dirty uniforms were probably military, and guys using makeup mirrors to apply face paint were not military.
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15 of 21. Very Very Scary. :O
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17 out of 21.
Hint, most cops in the images did not have covers on their headgear.
I was thrown by the belt fed MG in one image and the one LEO on the helo in another.
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17 out of 21.
Aside from the cops with anti-tank weapons, the thing that bothered me the most was the police uniforms. These uniforms were (often) desert camo in areas that are lush and green. :facepalm:
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What's the doff between desert and urban camo. There will be a quizz
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What's the doff between desert and urban camo. There will be a quizz
ACU doesn't blend in with anything but ugly couches.
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ACU doesn't blend in with anything but ugly couches.
Gravel pits
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17 out of 21.
Hint, most cops in the images did not have covers on their headgear.
I was thrown by the belt fed MG in one image and the one LEO on the helo in another.
Only reason I got the LEO on the little-bird right was because I noticed the huge spotlight hanging off the left side and went "yeah, that's not .mil issue."
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Only reason I got the LEO on the little-bird right was because I noticed the huge spotlight hanging off the left side and went "yeah, that's not .mil issue."
I got that one because the helo had a bright green paint job instead of the "dark green" paint job military choppers usually have.
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16/21
On many of them, the tip off is that the cops will stack a much larger force at an entry way, or otherwise clump together on the streets. The military were usually much more spread out and will have 2-3 in a picture when on the street.
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19 out of 21. I need to drink now.
I got that one because the helo had a bright green paint job instead of the "dark green" paint job military choppers usually have.
Yea, I got all of the helicopter questions right as well. Remembered the stuff we bolted onto the side of aircraft for police.
I think this is exactly what the folks that drafted the Constitution meant by "standing army". It is not a good thing that the police have such toys. They unfortunately will want to use them.
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16 out of 21, imo the cops seem to use armored vehicles that wouldn't last an hour in modern combat, but I thought the hippie looking dudes were cops.
The heli pics didn't fool me at all, I got them all correct.
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On many of them, the tip off is that the cops will stack a much larger force at an entry way, or otherwise clump together on the streets. The military were usually much more spread out and will have 2-3 in a picture when on the street.
Nope. That too, but the real tip-off is in the obvious bias of the person who created the quiz. No one would create such a quiz unless he was trying to make a point about the militarization of the police--damn good point, but it shows.
I don't know if cops, when they're all militaried up actually tend to add gratuitous amounts of black, but the first slide was the tip-off that that would be a theme, and it carried over pretty well. All the really flattering shots but one were soldiers. All the really goofy, stupid looking ones were cops. The in-between ones? Well, the dude with the black something-or-other and that three-point sling I wasn't sure on, because the black jumped out, but I went with the sling as being military. Maybe cops use military-style slings too, but in a pic set like this, a cop is much more likely to be, in the immortal words of the Dude, waving the *expletive deleted*ing gun around. More importantly though, he has his hand open and facing out in a universally understood non-hostile manner. And he's got the kind of focused, intense, serene look that makes him look all kinds of...um, I'll be in my bunk.... Yeah, that dude's a soldier, because no cop is gonna look that awesome in this set of pics.
The exercise with the people in the background hanging out? Not cops. Makes the exercise look all friendly-like.
All the jokes about black helicopter green made the helos easy, even though they're the reverse of the general rule. Difference? Cops don't use helicopters to look menacing. They do use various armored vehicles to spend way too much taxpayer money in order to look scary. Helicopters are for, and I could be wrong here, but I'm guessing, catching speeders on the freeway, monitoring evacuations or riots, etc. They're out of sight of the unruly public, so plain ol' shiny green is fine. Soldiers have the slight "they shoot back" issue going on and need flat paint.
Hey, Watson, it's elementary, and you don't even need to know the gear, just the bias.
19/21. The guy standing in a wood looking vaguely contemplative is definitely out of place with the cops. And the one with the guys desert fatigues, a row of 'em shot from a funny angle? One of 'em a kind of a dopey expression on his face, that combined with the black sunglasses on the guy behind him got me guessing the wrong way.
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16 out of 21, imo the cops seem to use armored vehicles that wouldn't last an hour in modern combat,
Well, they don't usually come up against guys armed with RPGs. 99.999999% of the time they'll never come up against a threat truly dangerous enough to use even a lightly armored APC in the first place. :facepalm:
And if they do, we already have an organization to deal with the situation: it's called the National Guard.
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Nope. That too, but the real tip-off is in the obvious bias of the person who created the quiz. No one would create such a quiz unless he was trying to make a point about the militarization of the police--damn good point, but it shows.
what she said in spades
and this?
"And if they do, we already have an organization to deal with the situation: it's called the National Guard. "
who can tell us why this is a fail?
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Well, they don't usually come up against guys armed with RPGs. 99.999999% of the time they'll never come up against a threat truly dangerous enough to use even a lightly armored APC in the first place. :facepalm:
And if they do, we already have an organization to deal with the situation: it's called the National Guard.
Actually there are lots of times that a lightly armored APC comes in real handy in a stand off situation. They work great if you have to go in and rescue civilians and/or wounded out from the line of fire.
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"And if they do, we already have an organization to deal with the situation: it's called the National Guard. "
who can tell us why this is a fail?
Not following your question there.
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who can tell us why this is a fail?
Posse Comitatus doesn't apply to National Guard working under orders of the governor of their state.
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Actually there are lots of times that a lightly armored APC comes in real handy in a stand off situation. They work great if you have to go in and rescue civilians and/or wounded out from the line of fire.
North hollywood shoot out for one. Several times they tried to rescue wounded people and were beat back by the robbers overwhelming firepower.
Of course, there is already a vehicle in production that fits the bill. Money transport armored truck or van.
Were I the police chief and the SWAT commander wanted an APC, I'd kick him in the jimmy and make him requsisition one of these
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lascointl.com%2Fvehicles%2Fimages%2F802a.jpg&hash=03e59fc2af0217cfd59ebd07efb8dee7172d7c95)
High front bumper for ramming gates, running boards for deploying swat police in a hurry. And the first person that tried to mount a machine gun on it would get said machine gun inserted rectally.
Utah county SWAT van
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deseretnews.com%2Fphotos%2Fmidres%2F1121601.jpg&hash=3dc77f3bbfd0a7ff7417dd36df6d2ca2e365ac5c)
Perfect use of police dollars there.
This, however, is *expletive deleted*ing insane
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thelibertyvoice.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F03%2FCharleston_APC.jpg&hash=102e74dc3ada3b79bb190627ca2d5d8bf95431ed)
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Posse Comitatus doesn't apply to National Guard working under orders of the governor of their state.
getting warmer
why would that shoe not fit this foot? think time
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I'm not following you CandS.
The National Guard called out under the orders of the governor may have police powers. We had them while we were in NO after Katrina. The 82nd, who also was there couldn't even load ammo in their magazines unless they were in direct threat of their lives.
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gov has to declare a state of emergency for that. many cop applications for an armored vehicle would be over before they could get the focus group together. i know it ruffles a certain demographic but when they roll one of those puppys into the front yard of a crack house it tends to discourage the stupid from getting froggy. keeps everyone intact
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gov has to declare a state of emergency for that. many cop applications for an armored vehicle would be over before they could get the focus group together. i know it ruffles a certain demographic but when they roll one of those puppys into the front yard of a crack house it tends to discourage the stupid from getting froggy. keeps everyone intact
I agree and trust me when the National Guard is out it is an emergency and people know that we come loaded for bear.
But at the same time the over use of "military" weapons, tactics and tools by police force is one of the reasons that people don't trust them. Not saying that there isn't a time in place for their use. Just not every time someone calls out for a kitten in a tree.
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I agree and trust me when the National Guard is out it is an emergency and people know that we come loaded for bear.
But at the same time the over use of "military" weapons, tactics and tools by police force is one of the reasons that people don't trust them. Not saying that there isn't a time in place for their use. Just not every time someone calls out for a kitten in a tree.
Amen. Or, when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.
This is why we've got police departments with shoot on sight orders in reference to dogs during raids.
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I agree and trust me when the National Guard is out it is an emergency and people know that we come loaded for bear.
But at the same time the over use of "military" weapons, tactics and tools by police force is one of the reasons that people don't trust them. Not saying that there isn't a time in place for their use. Just not every time someone calls out for a kitten in a tree.
agreed
a machine gun turret? only for real cops like sheriff joe. the armored vehicles? they seem to be the same kinda kryptonite to folks of a certain persuasion as evil black guns with the shoulder thingy that goes up is to the mcCarthy's of this world.
the recent case of the park ranger gunned down is a good example of a case where one would be useful
this
http://www.metafilter.com/101862/Were-they-Above-The-Law-or-Out-For-Justice
not so much so
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"This is why we've got police departments with shoot on sight orders in reference to dogs during raids."
got a source for that one? i looked
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I know several departments that want/need APC's and other military equipment because they are going to be outgunned otherwise in certain situations.
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I know several departments that want/need APC's and other military equipment because they are going to be outgunned otherwise in certain situations.
And that is a problem. The solution, however, should not be militirization of police. Perhaps if police weren't fighting the war on drugs, they wouldn't be coming up against military-grade violence quite so often.
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And that is a problem. The solution, however, should not be militirization of police. Perhaps if police weren't fighting the war on drugs, they wouldn't be coming up against military-grade violence quite so often.
is there a viable solution there or are you channeling my wife and just saying "i don't like that!" without offering an alternative? and contrary to what you read on lew rockwell or what al jones says there are plenty of non drug war uses. they get use more often than the tower fire trucks do
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is there a viable solution there or are you channeling my wife and just saying "i don't like that!" without offering an alternative? and contrary to what you read on lew rockwell or what al jones says there are plenty of non drug war uses. they get use more often than the tower fire trucks do
I have no doubt they are used regularly. See Jamis above on the nail/hammer analogy.
To extend the analogy: When all you've got is misogyny, everything a woman says starts to look stupid. Yeah, it doesn't fit quite as well, but hey, my brains must have leaked out my vagina when I turned twelve.
Astonishingly, the grammar and punctuation synapses remained intact. Weird.
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I have no doubt they are used regularly. See Jamis above on the nail/hammer analogy.
To extend the analogy: When all you've got is misogyny, everything a woman says starts to look stupid. Yeah, it doesn't fit quite as well, but hey, my brains must have leaked out my vagina when I turned twelve.
Astonishingly, the grammar and punctuation synapses remained intact. Weird.
so thats a no? as to your viable alternative
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so thats a no? as to your viable alternative
Nope, but you have lost any reasonable expectation you may have had of hearing my thoughts on the matter. Speak to me civilly and I'll be happy to discuss topics of mutual interest. Act like a jackass, and I'm gone. You tend to prefer echo chambers for your "debates" anyway, don't you?
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i am chagrined the world will be denied that solution you are holding out on
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Nope, but you have lost any reasonable expectation you may have had of hearing my thoughts on the matter. Speak to me civilly and I'll be happy to discuss topics of mutual interest. Act like a jackass, and I'm gone. You tend to prefer echo chambers for your "debates" anyway, don't you?
Of all the things you can rightfully accuse c&s's Daddy of, wanting an echo chamber for his debates is not one of them.
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is there a viable solution there or are you channeling my wife and just saying "i don't like that!" without offering an alternative? and contrary to what you read on lew rockwell or what al jones says there are plenty of non drug war uses. they get use more often than the tower fire trucks do
I think the tone of your reply is a bit over the top. Easy on that stuff right there.
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Of all the things you can rightfully accuse c&s's Daddy of, wanting an echo chamber for his debates is not one of them.
LOL. So true.
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LOL. So true.
I'm trying to think of what it would look like visually. I'm thinking something akin to that empty white place with no boundaries in THX-1138...
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North hollywood shoot out for one. Several times they tried to rescue wounded people and were beat back by the robbers overwhelming firepower.
Of course, there is already a vehicle in production that fits the bill. Money transport armored truck or van.
Were I the police chief and the SWAT commander wanted an APC, I'd kick him in the jimmy and make him requsisition one of these
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lascointl.com%2Fvehicles%2Fimages%2F802a.jpg&hash=03e59fc2af0217cfd59ebd07efb8dee7172d7c95)
High front bumper for ramming gates, running boards for deploying swat police in a hurry. And the first person that tried to mount a machine gun on it would get said machine gun inserted rectally.
Utah county SWAT van
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deseretnews.com%2Fphotos%2Fmidres%2F1121601.jpg&hash=3dc77f3bbfd0a7ff7417dd36df6d2ca2e365ac5c)
Perfect use of police dollars there.
This, however, is *expletive deleted*ing insane
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thelibertyvoice.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F03%2FCharleston_APC.jpg&hash=102e74dc3ada3b79bb190627ca2d5d8bf95431ed)
you do realize that pic 2 will cost more police dollars than 3?
i can see 3 in a metro area with special assets to protect
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I know several departments that want/need APC's and other military equipment because they are going to be outgunned otherwise in certain situations.
If they didn't want to be outgunned, they shouldn't use an M113.
.308 AP will penetrate from a zero deflection side shot.
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what will that .308 do to the windshield on pic 2?
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If they didn't want to be outgunned, they shouldn't use an M113.
.308 AP will penetrate from a zero deflection side shot.
*yawn* A3.
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*yawn* A3.
Are you saying an A3 would stop the round or that particular track in the pic is an A3? The pic is of at best an A2 <-spent a lot of time driving and TC'ing an M113A2. I got to drool on an A3 once that the reservists we were training had.
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Are you saying an A3 would stop the round or that particular track in the pic is an A3? The pic is of at best an A2 <-spent a lot of time driving and TC'ing an M113A2. I got to drool on an A3 once that the reservists we were training had.
I'm saying refit that to the A3 standard. Personally I'd also for the band tracks off the proposed A4 as well.
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16 out of 21.
Last I checked, the mil. does not put forgrips on they're general issue M16s. Dead give away.
I would maybe have less of an issue with cops using miltary grade stuff if it was actually military quality, meaning duck tape on their stocks and no tacticooling.
But bridgy has it right, cool the "war on drugs" and use civilian junk with an eye to public image. If the need the armored vehicals, let 'em have stripped former miltary gear, armour only. Truth be told, they'd be MORE functional with semi auto and adapted civilian gear, as they're purpose is to stop crime, not kill the enemy.
I can think of NO reason for a LEO to need a freeking belt fed weapon.
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Last I checked, the mil. does not put forgrips on they're general issue M16s. Dead give away.
Yes we do. I issued Grip-Pods to an entire transportation Staff unit for my last trip overseas. The Army is no less vulnerable to cool factor marketing then cops.
ETA 18 out of 21 but I read the thread so I knew about the AT-4.
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Yes we do. I issued Grip-Pods to an entire transportation Staff unit for my last trip overseas. The Army is no less vulnerable to cool factor marketing then cops.
ETA 18 out of 21 but I read the thread so I knew about the AT-4.
Hmmm...
As wmnorr noted, most of the mil pictures are marines. Dad's buddy (the ex recon guy) said they were getting old m16, no m14s, and nothing fancy. Mind, this was several years ago, but that's what I was going on.
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I did not take the quiz. Like seeing kids beat to hell, it is the sort of thing that riles me up.
*yawn* A3.
By the time they retro-fitted armor & tracks, they could have had a nice armored truck that gets quadruple the MPG and costs 1/5 to maintain.
I loves me some tracked vehicles, but no county or municipality LEO with half a brain ought to even take one as a gift due to maintenance issues.
Jamis Jockey has the right answer for that sort of tool.
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On many of them, the tip off is that the cops will stack a much larger force at an entry way, or otherwise clump together on the streets. The military were usually much more spread out and will have 2-3 in a picture when on the street.
I know several departments that want/need APC's and other military equipment because they are going to be outgunned otherwise in certain situations.
Too many LEO agencies try to make up in hardware what they lack in software just like this ^^^.
The Speshul teams they send out are useful only against unresistant targets or targets that are not much of a threat. Were they sent out against truly dangerous men, all that clumping, prancing about in front of the objective house's windows, and lack of a quality recon of the objective before rolling up would result in many more LEO deaths.
I suspect LEO management prefers hardware solutions to software solutions (training) because the hardware usually can't walk off with the utility gained for the $$$ spent. So, they end up with gear-queer SWATties piloting milsurp APCs into houses they haven't reconnoitered while his buddies make for a grenadier's delight.
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Anyone else notice that one of the pictures is from the raid that happened a while back in which the cops exhibited extremely poor/unprofessional tactics, and the guy (veteran, I think it was) in the house got shot?
ETA: Yeah, I think No. 4 is from that raid.
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Too many LEO agencies try to make up in hardware what they lack in software just like this ^^^.
The Speshul teams they send out are useful only against unresistant targets or targets that are not much of a threat. Were they sent out against truly dangerous men, all that clumping, prancing about in front of the objective house's windows, and lack of a quality recon of the objective before rolling up would result in many more LEO deaths.
I suspect LEO management prefers hardware solutions to software solutions (training) because the hardware usually can't walk off with the utility gained for the $$$ spent. So, they end up with gear-queer SWATties piloting milsurp APCs into houses they haven't reconnoitered while his buddies make for a grenadier's delight.
I agree with your assessment that agencies should focus more on training than equipment, but just like in the military, money spent on training isn't "seen." Meaning that people with the checkbooks like seeing something physical for the money spent. You can talk training all you want but it usually will lose out to cool guy *expletive deleted*it.
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18 right.
As far as the NG comments, back when I was still in (1980s), our state was adamant about not issuing weapons to the guard. We trained with riot batons. At the time, our CG made the comment, "Our Guardsmen will not have loaded rifles until one is dead in the street." Gave us all a warm feeling. :-X
But we did have "counter-sniper teams" trained up. Three to four man teams with radios, all with M16s and the designated shooter armed with an M21. My company had the Scouts assigned to it and we had five M21s in inventory.
I don't know what the current ROEs are.
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18 right.
As far as the NG comments, back when I was still in (1980s), our state was adamant about not issuing weapons to the guard. We trained with riot batons. At the time, our CG made the comment, "Our Guardsmen will not have loaded rifles until one is dead in the street." Gave us all a warm feeling. :-X
But we did have "counter-sniper teams" trained up. Three to four man teams with radios, all with M16s and the designated shooter armed with an M21. My company had the Scouts assigned to it and we had five M21s in inventory.
I don't know what the current ROEs are.
Current ROE's differ from state to state and for the reason you are called up. Usually when you are activated at the state level on orders from the Governor you are giving law enforcement powers and reasonable person in regards to in defense of you and others.