Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: never_retreat on February 26, 2012, 11:24:20 AM
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Had a lovely trip to to the Philadelphia airport last night.
Half way there I think the trimming jumped in in the car. No power had to do 25 mph on 95. City of brotherly love my ars, thought I was going to get shot. Anyone not familiar with the area that road has a non official speed limit of 85-95 mph.
Got the the airport picked up the other people and called AAA. A nice free 50 mile tow.
Got up this AM got out the Chilton manual, when the section about the timing starts with remove engine I had to rethink my plan.
I can see this being a 2 thousand dollar job.
Car has a KBB value of between 6-7 thousand. Need to get rid of it but wont get crap on a trade.
Is there a magic formula to figure out what a salvage yard would pay for the car? I figured parts are worth more than just scrap. The car is mostly clean.
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You might try trading it in. You will get more than you'd get at salvage. While it may cost YOU $2k to resolve the timing issue, a dealer, with access to a shop, will get it done for far less. If they give you $2k trade-in, not only will they have a $6k+ car to sell for $3k or less, they'll sell you another car.
Edit to add: When I bought our minivan a couple years ago, they gave me $3k on a 7yo Toyota Camry with a 150k 4cyl engine, 5spd manual, and a host of issues. I doubt I could have gotten more than $2k direct sell to a private party.
Chris
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You might try trading it in. You will get more than you'd get at salvage. While it may cost YOU $2k to resolve the timing issue, a dealer, with access to a shop, will get it done for far less. If they give you $2k trade-in, not only will they have a $6k+ car to sell for $3k or less, they'll sell you another car.
Edit to add: When I bought our minivan a couple years ago, they gave me $3k on a 7yo Toyota Camry with a 150k 4cyl engine, 5spd manual, and a host of issues. I doubt I could have gotten more than $2k direct sell to a private party.
Chris
I talked with a friend this morning that works a dealership. To them or any other dealer that car is not worth fixing and selling. Anyone that offers a lot for it is just going to inflate the price of the new vehicle.
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What make/model vehicle?
Salvage value will generally be the market value of the vehicle times the market area correction from your insurance company. As a general rule of thumb you can use an 80% estimate and prob be close enough for your purposes. Back out the cost of repairing the engine from that number and you'll have a decent guesstimate of the salvage value.
I'm pretty handy with a wrench (actually I'm one heckuva good mechanic and very proud of it). Get me some info on exactly what was going on with the vehicle and I'll do some digging. It might not be as bad as you think, or the repair may not be as involved as Chilton's makes it out to be.
Brad
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How sure are we that this is timing related? Have you done a compression test?
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What make/model vehicle?
Salvage value will generally be the market value of the vehicle times the market area correction from your insurance company. As a general rule of thumb you can use an 80% estimate and prob be close enough for your purposes. Back out the cost of repairing the engine from that number and you'll have a decent guesstimate of the salvage value.
I'm pretty handy with a wrench (actually I'm one heckuva good mechanic and very proud of it). Get me some info on exactly what was going on with the vehicle and I'll do some digging. It might not be as bad as you think, or the repair may not be as involved as Chilton's makes it out to be.
Brad
Its an 05 Mazda tribute (ford escape) with a v6. 130k miles.
I was driving it for a while at about 45 thought I noticed a lack of power. I was very windy so I kind of shrugged it off as just bucking a head wind. Car was never that powerful in my opinion plus I'm used to driving a 300hp truck.
Thought I heard a ticking noise, again thought it was something vibrating from either the wind or road.
Got on the high way lost more power, car wont go over 50. Weird winy noise starts. Continue the drive hopping the car goes up in flames for the insurance money.
Lost more power down to 40.
Lost more power down to 30.
Thought I was going to die before the car.
No amount of throttle changed anything.
Made it to destination called wrecker.
Check the codes this morning, nothing new except the same code for the bad cat.
Car is over all in good shape only one or 2 small dents.
Car recently had an alternator put in at the stealership. Is there anything they could have done by mistake or on intentionally in the vicinity?
Car has also had the abs light on for about 2 years and the 4x4 light comes on intermittently. Both still work.
How sure are we that this is timing related? Have you done a compression test?
Good thought. I'll check that latter. Unfortunately you can not get to the back 3 plugs without removing the intake.
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How sure are we that this is timing related? Have you done a compression test?
Actually what are the symptoms going to be?
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If it were cam/crank timing I would think you would get quite a bit of backfiring, assuming it ran at all.
Symptoms as described, I would think fuel.
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Actually what are the symptoms going to be?
Of skipped time? Low or no compression in some or all cylinders.
05 tribute with a V6... Duratec 3.0L. Timing chain.
It's possible that you have skipped time, but it's fairly uncommon for timing chains to do that. Especially after it's already running (Tensioner uses oil pressure to keep chain tension.) And I'm having trouble understanding a method of action where the problem would become worse short of not running at all.
Personally, I would start with fuel pressure.
Honestly, since you're talking about a fairly big financial decision, it might be a good idea to have a competent shop diagnosis the problem.
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If it were cam/crank timing I would think you would get quite a bit of backfiring, assuming it ran at all.
Symptoms as described, I would think fuel.
Yep. $20 fuel filter might just fix it.
Have you taken a look to see if all the plug wires are attached ???
I've had a GM 350 v8 barely run with one loose plug wire.
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Also: The duratec 30 is an interference engine, if I recall correctly. Which usually means that skipping time much at all results in a very-not-running-engine.
Like this one, in my Talon:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv282%2Fnick1911%2FDsc01981.jpg&hash=165e5d03c679fc0f53e0274921303b11feae7d50)
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If it were cam/crank timing I would think you would get quite a bit of backfiring, assuming it ran at all.
Symptoms as described, I would think fuel.
How would fuel pressure result in a wining noise that changed with throttle? I'm not being as wise ares.
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Plugged catalytic converter? You mentioned the code for the bad cat.
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Yep. $20 fuel filter might just fix it.
Have you taken a look to see if all the plug wires are attached ???
I've had a GM 350 v8 barely run with one loose plug wire.
No wires one coil per cylinder, when those die they do throw a code. I have changed a few.
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Plugged catalytic converter? You mentioned the code for the bad cat.
When I first met the car it had 2 bad coils on one bank. I figured all the unburnt fuel did it in. It has 3, one in each manifold and one in the pipe.
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Will the engine start at all? If it starts and idles normally then it's not a timing chain problem.
Brad
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Will the engine start at all? If it starts and idles normally then it's not a timing chain problem.
Brad
This,
I've actually gotten one of those engines running with the timing a tooth off. It'll barely idle, and there will be no doubt in your mind. It does sound more like a fuel issue.
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How would fuel pressure result in a wining noise that changed with throttle? I'm not being as wise ares.
50
40
30
That's highly indicative of fuel flow/restriction. Don't have an answer for the whining. Rocketman said bad cat. Increasing backpressure from a failing cat can cause the same symptoms.
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The whining could have been a failing fuel pump. When they start to go they can make the damdest racket, that is if they don't fail completely.
Do this simple test first... turn your key on without starting the engine. You should hear the fuel pump activate to prime the system. That is you should hear it just enough to know it's on. If it screams at you then you've just diagnosed the problem.
If it seems to be operating normally then try starting the car. If it starts and idles normally then the first thing to check is fuel pressure as you slowly rev the engine up the RPM range (in neutral, of course). Luckily this is very easy to do and, if you already have the guage, free. If you don't have a guage they are available most anywhere that sells auto parts automotive tools for around $35-40. Pretty handy gadget to have in your tool box.
Brad
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Alrighty
Check 2 cylinders on the front bank, 125 psi. Book says it should only be 75 psi.
I really leaning towards the front cat. When i turned it over it started (pulled the wrong relay for the fuel pump) we turned off I could hear air trying to escape from somewhere. The Cat is barely visible let alone touchable.
There is a procedure listed in the book for checking the pressure using a vacuum gage but I don't have one.
I'm going to call a coworker and see if he has one.
I'm also going to call around and get some prices on changing the cat. Its 400 bucks just to buy the dam thing.
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Check 2 cylinders on the front bank, 125 psi. Book says it should only be 75 psi.
Really? IIRC, old aircooled Beetles ran about 100-110psi and could be run as low as 75ish (below that, it was time for a rebuild). The "safe" compression ratio for 87 octane pump gas was 7.5:1, though some folks ran as high as 9:1 in their trailer queens. Again, this is IIRC, but I always expected modern watercooled engines to be well above 100psi given improved cooling and fuel management.
Chris
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125 psi cold crank pressure is good. 75 is bad. Really bad. Even the athsmatic 8.0:1 compression mid-70s smog engines could muster 90 psi or better.
If you can easily reach the exhaust manifold/pipe connection, it should be a matter of 2 bolts per side to uncouple the exhaust. If you're suspecting the cat(s) I'd be tempted to drop the tubes and see if it changes anything.
Brad
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We got a local shop to install a generic catalytic converter on my daughter's first car.
They had to do some cutting and welding but still way cheaper than factory parts.
It was something like $200 parts and labor vs. over a thou$and through Subaru (one reason I don't want to have anything to do with a Sue-Bee again :) ).
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Check the codes this morning, nothing new except the same code for the bad cat.
Are you not aware that a bad (clogged) catalytic converter is about like sticking a potato in the exhaust pipe? An engine is basically an air pump. If you plug the outlet, nothing can come in, so there's no new fuel-air mix to burn.
Replace your catalytic converter and you're probably good to go. Check places like Auto Zone for universals. Should not cost 400 clams.
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I miss read the book, it said the lowest cylinder needs to be within 75% of the highest for compression.
I looked to quick and thought it said 75 psi.
I looked up the cat and its almost 400 bucks to buy by itself.
I'm going to call around tomorrow, the job is going to suck monkey nuts without being on a lift.
I have a local mechanic that is well recommended and reasonable, and there is a minakee around here also.
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I'd replace the cat last. If you can get into it, shatter the guts with a screwdriver and pour it out. Yes, it will throw a code, but It will work and allow you to diagnose any other problems without destroying your new cat.
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i use rebar to punch through a clogged cat
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IF it's a failed cat don't just replace it and motor down the road. Cats fail for a reason, usually an over-rich condition that overheats them and melts the ceramic. If it truly is a failed cat that's a symtom of something else.
Brad
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Most simple things first. The code for the Cat is generated by your O2 sensor, I had a cat code for 50K miles with no issues. Eliminate the fuel filter as a possibility first, then move to the fuel pump, then the cat. Anything other that was major wrong with the engine would have popped a code.
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French is right, simple things first. Failed cats are relatively rare. There are a lot of other more common things that could easily be causing your problem.
Brad
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I've gutted a cat before.
Problem is getting to it, it is part of the front manifold.
Also I had said earlier there is a reason for the demise of the cat to start with. She drove this thing with 2 dead coils for a long time.
Practically had gas coming out the pipe. I think they might finally have had it.
I'm going to try to get a vacuum gage a try to measure the pressure.
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Just looked up your model (both in Mazda and Ford variants). Looks like some brilliant engineer decided it would be better if the cats and exhaust manifolds were a one piece assembly. Oh. Friggin. Joy.
Best price I can find is RockAuto. $389 for the front bank, $393 for the rear. Sure hope for your sake that it's something else.
Brad
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Just looked up your model (both in Mazda and Ford variants). Looks like some brilliant engineer decided it would be better if the cats and exhaust manifolds were a one piece assembly. Oh. Friggin. Joy.
Another Better Idea from Ford ;/
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Eww what a mess of a design.
I wonder if a competent shop could use a generic cat and cut/weld to the existing manifold? Exhaust work... isn't exactly percision.
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Another Better Idea from Ford ;/
It actually is better. It's more efficient, lasts longer and develops fewer leaks.
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It actually is better. It's more efficient, lasts longer and develops fewer leaks.
Until you have to replace one or both, at $800 parts to start with plus pull the engine which means you might as well drop in a new or rebuilt motor/tranny in while you're at it ...
which leads us back to the original post. :(
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Pardon the thread drift, I've had my fill of curmudgeonous this week.
Nope, no engine pulling. You have to pull an alternator, and move the AC compressor to one side, and then both manifolds come right off that engine. It's a $400 manifold because it's a tubular header and cat in one piece. They built it that way because customers demand ever increasing power and fuel economy in smaller packaging so they need an exhaust system that is relevantly free flowing and compact. Because modern cats routinely last 150,000 or so miles the whole header is designed and built to last that long. It's in one piece because if it wasn't it either wouldn't fit, or the added flange or ball and socket joint would add turns (lowering the efficiency) or leak over the service life (wouldn't pass emissions).
I apologize if I sound cranky, but cars don't have points ignitions and cast iron manifolds anymore. And that's a good thing, it makes them lighter, faster, more powerful, more fuel efficient and longer lasting. And big surprise, better technology costs more. It's not some conspiracy by car company's to make you pay more for parts, or only hire lazy engineers. The only conspiracy is that of shade-tree mechanics that don't want to learn new techniques for working on cars.
[/rant]
All that said, it's probably not the cat. It's actually pretty hard to kill those things, and if it were so clogged that it was killing your power that much, the manifolds would have been cherry red, and the engine would probably have overheated due to exhaust heat staying in the heads. Pull the plugs and post pictures to see if it's running rich or lean.
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Nope, no engine pulling. You have to pull an alternator, and move the AC compressor to one side, and then both manifolds come right off that engine.
Well, then I guess you could change the back spark plugs while you're in there :P
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Yep. You gotta pop the upper intake. 8 bolts and 15 min.
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I pop all the plugs on the front to check the compression. They were all even and nice colored. They are at a .065 gap so well worn, I have a set of platinums here for the car I'll put them in at the same time.
I'm going to try the disassembly tomorrow.
I called a couple of shops they all are charging 3 hours of labor and between 700-1000 for the cat. No thanks I will at least try this my self to start. I have no problem paying for 3 hours of labor but not 2-3 times the price for the part.
I can get the cat for just under 400 bucks locally and I still have a NAPA to stop by and chat with. If I go in and a certain employee is there I get the shop rates on parts.
If this thing is that farged up I probably won't be able to blow through it once its off.
Its not like I don't have the tools but sometimes when I can't see the part I get a bit intimidated.
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I'd spend $35 on a fuel pressure test guage first. Make absolutely sure that's not the prob before throwing a bunch of time at disassembly.
Brad
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Well after spending and hour removing the intake to get to the fuel rail to check the pressure, it looks like for decided to omit the test port. bastards.
I pulled the o2 sensor that is just down stream of that cat and the car runs fine, put it back in and runs like crap.
I think either the down stream cat or muffler is the cause of the problem now.
Time for a quick lunch and I'm getting the blue tipped wrench out and removing some exhaust parts.
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Time for a quick lunch and I'm getting the blue tipped wrench out and removing some exhaust parts.
Mmm, exhaust; the easy way.
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Well after spending and hour removing the intake to get to the fuel rail to check the pressure, it looks like for decided to omit the test port. bastards.
I pulled the o2 sensor that is just down stream of that cat and the car runs fine, put it back in and runs like crap.
I think either the down stream cat or muffler is the cause of the problem now.
Time for a quick lunch and I'm getting the blue tipped wrench out and removing some exhaust parts.
So you need a new O2 sensor. . .
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So you need a new O2 sensor. . .
No the o2 sensor was still plugged in I just removed it from the hole. Once removed the exhaust had somewhere to go.
I just tore everything out from the y pipe back, the rear cat is shot. Can't even blow air through it with the air gun.
I'm going to replace everything else since its all pretty rusted out. The whole exhaust is cheap and that cat is about 200 bucks.
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No the o2 sensor was still plugged in I just removed it from the hole. Once removed the exhaust had somewhere to go.
I just tore everything out from the y pipe back, the rear cat is shot. Can't even blow air through it with the air gun.
I'm going to replace everything else since its all pretty rusted out. The whole exhaust is cheap and that cat is about 200 bucks.
Awesome.
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If you removed the downstream sensor, that's AFTER the cat. That tells me your muffler has collapsed internally or there is a huge pinch in the exgaust somewhere. If it was the cat it would still run like crap because it would still be stopped up.
Brad
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If you removed the downstream sensor, that's AFTER the cat. That tells me your muffler has collapsed internally or there is a huge pinch in the exgaust somewhere. If it was the cat it would still run like crap because it would still be stopped up.
Brad
You missed that a bit. There are 3 cats, one on each manifold and one back on the pipe. The o2 sensor was after one of the manifold cats. That was the one that I thought might be bad.
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Oh, okay. Well, that means that the pre-sensor cat is likely okay. If it was the pre-sensor (manifold) cat then you should have seen no change when you opened up the sensor bung located between it an the post sensor cat.
I take it to mean that there is a single cat in the exhaust somewhere after the y-pipe. That should mean there is a single connector at the y-pipe/cat junction. Two bolts to drop it. If you don't have ramps you can do it the redneck way by driving both wheels on one side up onto the curb. That should give you enough room to wiggle under and drop that connection.
(*edit to add*
Just looked it up and it is indeed a single connection after the y-pipe. See diagram below.)
If it's the rear converter then you just caught a HUGE break. Rock auto shows two undercar direct-fit units available - Walker ($188) and Eastern ($149). I looked under the Ford Escape parts list. The same Walker part number, 53389, is also listed under the Maza Tribute parts list. The Eastern part number, 30411, isn't list under Mazda, but if the Walker part works so should the eastern as both are direct-fit replacements for the same application.
*edit to add*
Found this vehicle-specific parts breakout over on RockAuto.
(Walker part numbers)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finfo.rockauto.com%2FWalker%2F112-849.jpg&hash=5fb1d6185c2c8a295c520f6deac92536f40e6728)
I'd still be careful and check the muffler and resonator. It's still somewhat more likely for one of them to have collapsed internally than it is for the cat to have failed to the point of being clogged.
Brad