Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: wmenorr67 on March 11, 2012, 09:44:23 AM
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http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/03/11/us-service-member-detained-for-allegedly-shooting-afghan-civilians-nato-says/
Can't wait for the "official" reason behind this person going off the deep end. But this is not going to go well for those still there.
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If accurate, really bad news.
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Multiple sources are reporting it to include the BBC. He went door to door shooting them. They claim he snapped. Ya think.
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There goes the neighborhood.
The minor conflicts in data (he returned to base & turned himself in vs. he returned to "a NATO base") are much less troublesome than Mr. Kahn's fortuitous being away all night when his entire family gets wiped out and some female relative haranguing the press but not giving her name "because of the conservative nature of the area" (sharia proscription against women having any dealings with men not of their own family?) and the whole burned-bodies-in-a-minivan thing.
Lone NCO walks off base near midnight to villages barely 500 yars away, goes to several houses where he blasts away killing all and sundry, and there is not even an alert on the base due to the proximity of gunfire?
I'm thinking that there is an odor here.
What say the rest of you?
stay safe.
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Things are interesting to say the least. Can't wait for the redacted reports.
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The NYT is reporting the shooter as an Army sergeant who killed 16 people, nine of them children. He collected 11 bodies at the first of three houses and tried to set them on fire.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/world/asia/afghanistan-civilians-killed-american-soldier-held.html
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Were on alert , i got breifed when i woke up. I don't have full detail yet ! But i heard he was drunk or high.
Sgt B
Afghanistan
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Were on alert , i got breifed when i woke up. I don't have full detail yet ! But i heard he was drunk or high.
Sgt B
Afghanistan
But...but...but...General Order 1A says there isn't to be any alcohol or drugs in theater. So that can't be the issue.
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Abu Ghraib, the recent Koran burnings, now this. We seem to be sabotaging ourselves quite effectively. Damnit.
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Things are interesting to say the least. Can't wait for the redacted reports.
Yep, reading blackline code is easy...
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F5%2F53%2FAclu-v-ashcroft-redacted.jpg&hash=4c8a0a2dd150bed1f44424f15a028716704fabc9)
That^^ breaks down to: "Go *expletive deleted* yourself Citizen, none of your beeswax!" :police:
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Was talking to a friend this morning about this (he's a former army E5), and had some thoughts:
1. Do you think the powers that be will turn this guy over to the afghani's?
If so...what do you think the reaction of Joe will be? What about reaction here?
2. Will this incident compel us to leave AF sooner?
If so...maybe that was the guy's intention?
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Abu Ghraib, the recent Koran burnings, now this. We seem to be sabotaging ourselves quite effectively. Damnit.
No kidding.
Unfortunately, America has a history of stepping on our own toes in foreign conflicts.
We never have the knowledge of foreign cultures, and then having stupid sh!t happen.
All this could have been avoided by staying out.
In the end, our presence never really makes a difference.
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Was talking to a friend this morning about this (he's a former army E5), and had some thoughts:
1. Do you think the powers that be will turn this guy over to the afghani's?
If so...what do you think the reaction of Joe will be? What about reaction here?
2. Will this incident compel us to leave AF sooner?
If so...maybe that was the guy's intention?
1. No--bet the Soldier in question is already in route if not already on ground to Germany.
2. No--but it is going to make the next two years very rough for those that are going to have to go.
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I am speaking to a buddy right now about it.
Same guy birdman refers to (E-6, by the way, birdman. Fail. U FAIL SIR!)
I think there's probably a chance our government will cave and turn him over. I pray that's not the case.
It would be the end of good order and discipline over there.
"Hey soldier, clean your weapon."
"What are you gonna do, sir? Turn me over to the local police?"
"Hey soldiers, let's go clear this house."
"You clear it, sir. I don't want to end up in an afghani gallows if I kill the wrong person."
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I think there's probably a chance our government will cave and turn him over. I pray that's not the case.
It would be the end of good order and discipline over there.
Also talking with some guys I know.
I think there's zero chance that we will turn him over. In addition to there being plenty of legal precident that we try our own for war crimes, and our whole multi year stand that the international court doesn't have jurisdiction over our soilders, turning a US service member over to the Afghani's is the kind of thing that could lead to a full on mutiny and Obama's cunning enough to know it.
We'll make some noises, and vacilate publiclly. Maybe a senator or someone will make some comments about turning him over, but it'll all be for show. I'm with Wmennor; This guy's already in Germany, and will be CONUS before the riots can start in ernest.
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I am speaking to a buddy right now about it.
Same guy birdman refers to (E-6, by the way, birdman. Fail. U FAIL SIR!)
I demoted him for moving to Florida without my permission.
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I would like to have a little more background on the Soldier in question for multiple reasons. The biggest reason being to try and figure out his motive. You know this type of incident is going to have ramifications not only for our troops in Afghanistan but worldwide and possibly from the Islamic population stateside. Folks it is incidents like this that could make things ugly fast. And with my BDE currently rotating our to Afghanistan and my unit and our sister unit that came to Kuwait due to rotate out in a few weeks, not a good time to be moving large numbers of troops. Big motivational win if the bad guys were to knock off a homebound unit.
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If you use the Ft Hood shooter legal rational this event (if it took place as portrayed) was nothing more than work place violence.
I am being facetious. This incident (again, if it happened as portrayed) is deadly serious. What would be equally serious would be to turn the individual over to Afghani courts.
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The soldier will not be turned over to the Afghan govt, at least not in 2012. The public outcry would impact a certain happening in November. After the facts are determined, justice should be meted out under UCMJ. On a personal note, recent events have shifted me firmly into the get out ASAP camp. The U.S./ISAF no longer has an achievable mission, and thus should leave.
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No kidding.
Unfortunately, America has a history of stepping on our own toes in foreign conflicts.
We never have the knowledge of foreign cultures, and then having stupid sh!t happen.
All this could have been avoided by staying out.
In the end, our presence never really makes a difference.
Who steps on their own toes less than us? The Russians? The British? Historically, conquerors cares little about it, and I am trying to think of anyone in recent years, but am drawing a blank. IMO, the difference is we try to care and don't get into wholesale raping, pillaging, slaughter, and/or colonization. I think our biggest problem is trying to nation build in 3rd world hell holes like Afghanistan instead of just wiping out of our enemies and leaving.
The politically incorrect thing to mention is that we should stop trying to "help" Muslim countries. They are generally ungrateful and the dictatorships are the only ones that make a pretense of liking us. When a people's sense of morality is so far apart from out own, it is inevitable that we will clash and occupation will not be smooth.
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News update is that the soldier involved is 38 years old and had previously suffered a traumatic brain injury (bumped his head either in a car crash or in a Humvee) but was later cleared for duty.
This was his fourth combat deployment - first one in Afghanistan, his previous three were all in Iraq.
The article said after his last deployment he had trouble re-integrating and marital problems, but the Army cleared him for duty again.
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News update is that the soldier involved is 38 years old and had previously suffered a traumatic brain injury (bumped his head either in a car crash or in a Humvee) but was later cleared for duty.
This was his fourth combat deployment - first one in Afghanistan, his previous three were all in Iraq.
The article said after his last deployment he had trouble re-integrating and marital problems, but the Army cleared him for duty again.
Aint that just effing convenient?
And since when did "concussion" get promoted to traumatic brain injury? (Have no idea if that was his previous injury, but if he had some penetrating injury or lost functioning of part(s) of his grey matter I am hard-pressed to see him being cleared for return to duty.)
stay safe.
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And since when did "concussion" get promoted to traumatic brain injury? (Have no idea if that was his previous injury, but if he had some penetrating injury or lost functioning of part(s) of his grey matter I am hard-pressed to see him being cleared for return to duty.)
MTBI =/= concussion.
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There goes the neighborhood.
The minor conflicts in data (he returned to base & turned himself in vs. he returned to "a NATO base") are much less troublesome than Mr. Kahn's fortuitous being away all night when his entire family gets wiped out and some female relative haranguing the press but not giving her name "because of the conservative nature of the area" (sharia proscription against women having any dealings with men not of their own family?) and the whole burned-bodies-in-a-minivan thing.
Lone NCO walks off base near midnight to villages barely 500 yars away, goes to several houses where he blasts away killing all and sundry, and there is not even an alert on the base due to the proximity of gunfire?
I'm thinking that there is an odor here.
What say the rest of you?
stay safe.
I have not really been that interested in reading the news reports which I'm sure will be very biased.
What I have gleaned so far is that it wasn't witnessed by other soldiers, the pictures are provided by APS well known for its anti American agenda-any word yet what other anti American pictures the photographer has published? I'm thinking the whole thing is staged personally, but am not talking about it much.
If the whole thing turns out to be true???
Well, it only proves that the soldiers need cable TV, what else is there to do in a war zone?
If they had the necessities of a civilized society, cable TV/internet, BBQ's and quality strip clubs maybe they wouldn't need to go all Major Hussein on the Taliban
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Another vote for the Soldier not being turned over to the GIRoA. That would fly in the face of every precedent where we've refused to give up immunity under local law for US troops. This was one of the major issues that scuttled the extension of the SOFA in Iraq. Won't happen.
As to the NCO having a number of deployments, having gotten his nugget rocked, and having marital and adjustment problems. Do you know how many Soldiers that describes since 2001? Many, many, many. There may have been other warning signs but to say "Oh, this guy got knocked in the head and had marriage problems, why didn't anyone do anything?" is ridiculous.
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Another vote for the Soldier not being turned over to the GIRoA. That would fly in the face of every precedent where we've refused to give up immunity under local law for US troops. This was one of the major issues that scuttled the extension of the SOFA in Iraq. Won't happen.
Normally I would agree whole-heartedly...but I also would never have thought an American president would apologize as much as this one, while not demanding the same...or bow to foreign leaders...or talk down about his own country as much as this one. Given that...I don't believe anything is impossible. Though, I really hope I'm wrong.
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I think there's probably a chance our government will cave and turn him over. I pray that's not the case.
If memory serves the English fought a war with the Chinese over a similar issue. The Brits didn't cave. We're already fighting a war, so it may be a moot point
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The Taliban is promising revenge. I think the are just pissed off they didn't get in on the action. How many freakin women and children have those swine killed, while claiming to be sane. At least this guy is obviously nuts. We need to get our people and $ back home.
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Sane people don't do things like that. How his brain got broken is irrelevant. I suspect he will likely be treated more like a criminal than a casualty of the war on (some) terror.
As to Afgahnistan, the time to go has come. I believe we had valid justification for Afgahnistan and Iraq but our political leadership has bolluxed things up so badly there is no longer good reason to stay.
Pull our people and resources out then tell Karzi and the Taliban if they cause us any grief we'll carpet bomb them back to the Pleistocene era, since they are still pretty much living in the stone age anyway. Tell the turds in Pakistan the same thing and mean it.
Handing the suspect over to the Afgahns Taliban would be political suicide and would severely damage military moral beyond repair. Such an act would be Sufficient motivation for me to join in a veterans march on DC calling for Obama's resignation.
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.... As to the NCO having a number of deployments, having gotten his nugget rocked, and having marital and adjustment problems. Do you know how many Soldiers that describes since 2001? Many, many, many. There may have been other warning signs but to say "Oh, this guy got knocked in the head and had marriage problems, why didn't anyone do anything?" is ridiculous.
And here we go again! Vietnam GWOT vets with PTSD with anger problems leading to timebombs walking our streets. But now instead of waiting till they come come to explode they are falling apart while still deployed. Hell, even the VA is touting that line now.
And the paid "experts" for the .mil and .gov are saying that this guy most likely was an "outsider" that the SF guys did not take in even though he was assigned to their little base, and that lack of sleep may have contributed to a "berserker" state of mind.
If nothing else, I see the guy being set up for a not guilty by reaason of insanity verdict. That, and if he does not get his VA disability compensation claim approved the say he gets out - whether or not he even files a claim - then there is truely something rotten going on.
stay safe.
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Lots and lots of stories in our local media about this, from the standpoint of this is just the latest incident involving troops from JBLM.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.huffpost.com%2Fgadgets%2Fslideshows%2F213934%2Fslide_213934_777070_large.jpg%3F1331655003&hash=992c0939d560badc415b1edb5471344226d512dc)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.huffpost.com%2Fgadgets%2Fslideshows%2F213934%2Fslide_213934_777097_large.jpg%3F1331655003&hash=98e8eec187ab75e5a80c07201482909b872c79ae)
These are supposed to be insurgents burning an effigy of Obama. There is no mention of the elaborately constructed cross in any news reports that have used/featured these pictures.
Can you say "Hmmmm"?
I still believe that The Religion of Peace has room for Christianity, that the Afghani insurgents understand the difference between Christianity as a religion and the USA as a government, and the Easter Bunny.
stay safe.
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Now now skidmark, don't be getting around paranoid there. The media just can't tell the difference between Obama and Our Lord and Saviour so it's natural they mistake a cross for a symbol of Obama.
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Now now skidmark, don't be getting around paranoid there. The media just can't tell the difference between Obama and Our Lord and Saviour so it's natural they mistake a cross for a symbol of Obama.
Agreed, but I thought that Achmed knew the difference.
stay safe.
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Looks like they're just toasting that crucifix, not actually burning it....
;/ ;)
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http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_8559/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=TCCiaJU1
There is a video that the US has shown to Afghan officials of the shooter surrendering to prove he acted alone. No video a link, just the story.
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http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_8559/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=TCCiaJU1
There is a video that the US has shown to Afghan officials of the shooter surrendering to prove he acted alone. No video a link, just the story.
Basically the same story at HuffPo: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/14/afghanistan-shooting-massacre-surveillance-video_n_1343825.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D143379
But aint it amazing that there's survellience video of him coming back to surrender, but no video of him leaving the base to go out and atrocitize (is that the correct verb form?)?
I know about video being overwritten (thanks, VDOT & Surry County) but it really raises the ??? factor when there's only video of him travellig in one direction.
I somehow wonder if he will become so distraught that he'll Vince Foster himself.
stay safe.
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There is no confirmation either way if there is video of him leaving. We are only showing the part of him returning.
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Looks like they're just toasting that crucifix, not actually burning it....
;/ ;)
it actually sort of resembles a bacon crucifix if you look at it right.
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There is no confirmation either way if there is video of him leaving. We are only showing the part of him returning.
Funny that the camera was running when he came back buwas not when he left.
Snug your tinfoil hat down tight, folks, This one is going to be interesting. Do you doubt they would withhold video of him slipping out of camp if they had it? If you buy that I'd like to discuss a few bridges I could let go for the right price, or some oceanfront property in Arizona.
stay safe.
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The Taliban is promising revenge. I think the are just pissed off they didn't get in on the action. How many freakin women and children have those swine killed, while claiming to be sane. At least this guy is obviously nuts. We need to get our people and $ back home.
I think we should just count our lucky stars that the soldier who went fugazi didn't kill any dancing boys or goats...
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Funny that the camera was running when he came back buwas not when he left.
Snug your tinfoil hat down tight, folks, This one is going to be interesting. Do you doubt they would withhold video of him slipping out of camp if they had it? If you buy that I'd like to discuss a few bridges I could let go for the right price, or some oceanfront property in Arizona.
stay safe.
THe video came from one of the surveillance blimps. They don't record every area at all times.
Is it a stretch to believe that it was scanning, recording lots of different stuff, etc, then focused on the activity once reports of gunfire started coming in?
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Michael Yon ways in on the subject.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/i-massacre-coming-article-1.1039181
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I'm normally not a huge fan of Yon. However this quote:
Pashtuns don’t care about our justice system. They don’t even care about the Afghan government; they want blood for blood. We are being drawn into a feud.
is pretty consistent with my experiences. I don't think there's anything, that we would be willing to do, that would appease the wronged tribe. It'll just escalate.
I don't think there are very many service members that close to going homicidally rouge, but our military can, and I fear will, become much less restrained in our responses to attack, to hell with the ROE.
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.....going homicidally rouge, ...........
Women's make-up on a rampage!!!! [tinfoil] [tinfoil]
Sorry, had to.
[/thread drift]
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I don't think there's anything, that we would be willing to do, that would appease the wronged tribe. It'll just escalate.
(https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS8465Q3AOTJUfGHFFsYFjQnDIwkiwfluc_FG5frJlqfge1G7-s_w)
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I still believe that The Religion of Peace has room for Christianity, that the Afghani insurgents understand the difference between Christianity as a religion and the USA as a government, and the Easter Bunny.
I respectfully disagree with you. Islam is not the "religion of peace." Islam is the "religion of submission." Supposedly, this means submission to the will of Allah, but Islamists take it to mean that everyone MUST submit to their view of what the will of Allah is. All non-Muslims are "infidels" and must be converted or exterminated. Islamists today are like the Jesuits of the Spanish Inquisition: "We will save your soul even if we have to kill you to do it. Convert or die."
Oh, wait -- Give me more of a hint when you switch on the mega sarcasm, eh?
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C&SD, there's one major flaw with trying to use gold to appease them - they won't stay bought.
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i don't know about that. a guy i worked with killed a 5 year old in baluchistan. his family hired a local guy to negotiate. they paid 50 k to settle is. that was 20 years ago though
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wrong clan. Some clans, blood money is doable. Pashtun's, not so much. If they decide to make it an honor thing, then money won't cut it.
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so you need to buy off the head of the clan?
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Here is the latest info:
http://news.yahoo.com/lawyer-afghan-suspects-friend-had-leg-blown-off-033637373.html
The suspect had been injured twice during his three previous deployments to Iraq, and didn't want to go to Afghanistan to begin with, Browne said.
The soldier asked to be represented by Browne, a well-known Seattle defense attorney, when he was taken into custody, the lawyer said.
Surely the accused will engage an insanity plea....
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John Henry Browne would surely be on any list of the top five Seattle criminal defense counsel. A very skilled lawyer in his field.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.googlepixel.com%2Fimages%2Fbales1.jpg&hash=69cd251374a3071a525375f0b00d5853952bb128)
Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, 1st platoon sergeant, Blackhorse Company, 2nd Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, meets with local Afghan civilians during a patrol in the village of Jahel Dar Lab-e at the National Training Center Aug. 23. Blackhorse Company patrolled the village of Jahel Dar Lab-e to establish a relationship with the Afghan people and secure the village.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.googlepixel.com%2Fimages%2Fbales3.jpg&hash=b8e54e2a7a547092f184a10abcec6959f68a00b0)
Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, 1st platoon sergeant, Blackhorse Company, 2nd Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, checks over an Afghan civilian’s identification papers at the National Training Center Aug. 23. Blackhorse Company patrolled the village of Jahel Dar Lab-e to establish a relationship with the Afghan people and secure the village.
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http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/321262
More news. I wouldn't be surprised if in the end reality doesn't coincide with the US "Official Statement". There was a lot of killing in different houses in apparently two villages now(??) and the subsequent heavy lifting to pile up the bodies for burning. Blaming everything on a lone, deranged individual is just too stretchy. Looking to the past, village massacres have never been carried out by lone rogue soldiers.
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If any of these idiots from NATO or the US has lied about this, we are completely *expletive deleted*ed, deserve total disdain from others, and will never be trusted again.
At least they could have had enough common sense to cover their tracks better than this.....
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As per an earlier Digital Journal report, according to an Afghan official who viewed the footage, a US surveillance video caught the solder walking up to his base, laying down his weapon and raising his arms in surrender. US authorities showed this footage to the Afghans to prove that only 1 soldier was involved in the shootings.
However, there are apparently a further 2 or 3 hours of video footage covering the time of the attack and Afghan investigators are still trying to get this footage from the US military.
Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/321262#ixzz1pP7SkMoR
Lee Harvey Oswald nailed John Connely and blew Jack Kennedy's head off all by himself, and Vince Foster committed suicide just as the official report says he did.
The problem with conspiracy theories is that they depend on significant (any number > 1 = significant) numbers of folks to keep their mouths shut in defiance of human nature's [almost] imperative to talk.
IF the alleged video shows that there were allegedly other folks allegedly involved, keeping a lid on things is going to be a bit more than "difficult". I'm going to [popcorn].
stay safe.
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Lee Harvey Oswald nailed John Connely and blew Jack Kennedy's head off all by himself, and Vince Foster committed suicide just as the official report says he did.
The problem with conspiracy theories is that they depend on significant (any number > 1 = significant) numbers of folks to keep their mouths shut in defiance of human nature's [almost] imperative to talk.
IF the alleged video shows that there were allegedly other folks allegedly involved, keeping a lid on things is going to be a bit more than "difficult". I'm going to [popcorn].
stay safe.
Three can keep a secret.
If two are dead.
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Three can keep a secret.
If two are dead.
Oooo, I like this!!!
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I will bet there will be a movie about this event. I expect the Russians had similar soldier justice retributions.
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Oooo, I like this!!!
So did Ben Franklin IFAIK.
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Oops! Someone committed Thinking
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-madness-is-not-the-reason-for-this-massacre-7575737.html
The Afghan narrative has been curiously lobotomised – censored, even – by those who have been trying to explain this appalling massacre in Kandahar. They remembered the Koran burnings – when American troops in Bagram chucked Korans on a bonfire – and the deaths of six Nato soldiers, two of them Americans, which followed. But blow me down if they didn't forget – and this applies to every single report on the latest killings – a remarkable and highly significant statement from the US army's top commander in Afghanistan, General John Allen, exactly 22 days ago. Indeed, it was so unusual a statement that I clipped the report of Allen's words from my morning paper and placed it inside my briefcase for future reference.
Allen told his men that "now is not the time for revenge for the deaths of two US soldiers killed in Thursday's riots". They should, he said, "resist whatever urge they might have to strike back" after an Afghan soldier killed the two Americans. "There will be moments like this when you're searching for the meaning of this loss," Allen continued. "There will be moments like this, when your emotions are governed by anger and a desire to strike back. Now is not the time for revenge, now is the time to look deep inside your souls, remember your mission, remember your discipline, remember who you are."
Now this was an extraordinary plea to come from the US commander in Afghanistan. The top general had to tell his supposedly well-disciplined, elite, professional army not to "take vengeance" on the Afghans they are supposed to be helping/protecting/nurturing/training, etc. He had to tell his soldiers not to commit murder.
This is just a snippet from the middle of the think-piece. Do go read the whole thing.
stay safe.
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So did Ben Franklin IFAIK.
according to my research, yes, it was Ben Franklyn who originally coined the quote, I first saw it at the NYC Hell's Angels clubhouse circa 1981.
As far as the shooting being a conspiracy? I'm sure all the Taliban think so.
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according to my research, yes, it was Ben Franklyn who originally coined the quote, I first saw it at the NYC Hell's Angels clubhouse circa 1981.
As far as the shooting being a conspiracy? I'm sure all the Taliban think so.
My first encounter with the phrase was also by way of the HAMC.
I didn't learn about Franklin's connection till much later.
Either way it is something of a truism. The bigger the conspiracy needs to be the more chances for someone to spill the beans. Get enough people involved and someone WILL run their mouth.
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http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2012/03/more-on-afghanistan-massacre.html
I thought some of the comments here were interesting.
http://www.businessinsider.com/this-whole-line-of-infidel-gear-cant-be-helping-international-relations-in-afghanistan-2012-3
This link was given. Kind of makes me think the troops are a bit cynical about being there.
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About 200 coalition members have been killed or wounded from insider attacks. Afghan President Hamid Karzai is tantamount to being Taliban and has not bothered to apologize. Instead, Karzai whips up anti-U.S. fervor at every opportunity. Twice, Karzai has threatened to leave politics and join the Taliban.
Even our most disciplined troops — not the few problem troops — have lost all idealism. They have not lost heart for the fight. Mostly, they just don’t care. They fight because they are ordered to fight, but they have eyes wide open. The halfhearted surge and sudden drawdown leave little room for success.
These two paragraphs says a lot. The bolded part is very true.
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http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2012/03/more-on-afghanistan-massacre.html
I thought some of the comments here were interesting.
http://www.businessinsider.com/this-whole-line-of-infidel-gear-cant-be-helping-international-relations-in-afghanistan-2012-3
This link was given. Kind of makes me think the troops are a bit cynical about being there.
I don't make any claims about the decisions other NCOs make... but.
I would not allow my soldiers to wear such stuff. for me, it's not about being PC, or "offending" anyone, it's about professionalism
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I don't make any claims about the decisions other NCOs make... but.
I would not allow my soldiers to wear such stuff. for me, it's not about being PC, or "offending" anyone, it's about professionalism
I agree 100%.
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I don't make any claims about the decisions other NCOs make... but.
I would not allow my soldiers to wear such stuff. for me, it's not about being PC, or "offending" anyone, it's about professionalism
I don't disagree, which is why this says a lot to me about the general attitude of the troops.
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In my view, it's indicative of the continued erosion of what it means to be an NCO.
I might have thought it was "cool" to wear such things when I was a dumb private. It would have been my team leader's and squad leader's jobs to ensure that I didn't do that crap.
the NCO corps is being eroded. I see it all the time. I am not sure of the causes, but the effect is clear: good order and discipline, along with judgement, are suffering.
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In my view, it's indicative of the continued erosion of what it means to be an NCO.
I might have thought it was "cool" to wear such things when I was a dumb private. It would have been my team leader's and squad leader's jobs to ensure that I didn't do that crap.
the NCO corps is being eroded. I see it all the time. I am not sure of the causes, but the effect is clear: good order and discipline, along with judgement, are suffering.
Fitz not to make excuses but the biggest factor has been the constant state of war we have been in. Not enough time to properly train Soldiers and get them the schools they need to move up the ranks. Before you had to have PLDC/WLC to make E5 and now that isn't needed until time to make E6 and so forth. Also too many good NCO's get slapped down when doing their job. And it can all be traced back to the lowering of standards to boost troop strength. Too many bad apples got into the Service and now some of them are becoming NCO's.
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Fitz not to make excuses but the biggest factor has been the constant state of war we have been in. Not enough time to properly train Soldiers and get them the schools they need to move up the ranks. Before you had to have PLDC/WLC to make E5 and now that isn't needed until time to make E6 and so forth. Also too many good NCO's get slapped down when doing their job. And it can all be traced back to the lowering of standards to boost troop strength. Too many bad apples got into the Service and now some of them are becoming NCO's.
Yeah like i said.. the causes are many, and I haven't thought about them... but the end result is the same: erosion of what it means to be an NCO.
I went to the "new" WLC, I turned out ok. But I also had many shining examples of good leadership when I was a younger soldier. Not everyone has that benefit.
I see *expletive deleted*it soldiers promoted to E5 and it churns my stomach. Leadership in combat is a sacred responsibility, and it is taken entirely too lightly.
Got a great PT score? PROMOTE!
It's sickening
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http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2012/03/20/lancaster-soldier-accused-afghan-slaying-allegedly-swindled-couple.html
Looks like Bales' previous occupation was a failure.
WCPO reported that Bales was ordered to pay Gary and Janet Liebschner more than $1.5 million after an arbitrator found that he engaged in fraud, breach of fiduciary duty and unauthorized trading a year before he joined the military.
Janet Liebschner told the Cincinnati television station that her husband decided to sell some stocks to help pay for medical bills and that Bales pocketed their money.
The judgement against Bales was never paid, but it was a civil judgement. For some atrange reason, there were no criminal charges filed.
This situation seems quite odd to me..... ???
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http://www.military.com/news/article/gi-did-not-reveal-women-children-killed.html?col=1186032310810
A U.S. soldier held in the slaying of 16 Afghan civilians did not initially say women and children were among the dead, officials said.
Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales allegedly told officials he killed several older Afghan men outside a U.S. combat outpost in southern Afghanistan on March 11, the Los Angeles times reported Tuesday.
Interesting twist.
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The financial fraud thing and other issues make me wonder if the sum total of his problems from civilian life and deployments, and bad morale had him expecting insurgents behind every stone... he was looking for "suicide by Taliban". And could take it out on a few of them, and then also die a "hero".
Not finding any willing to trade fire with him, it somehow went sideways on him and he instead winds up shooting all these women and children?
I understand these people don't have phones or 911, andbut how did he get to do this in two different villages? I guess "two villages" could be just two clusters of houses within sight of each other. Not as if I have a map or any knowledge of the area.
Were there other shooters on a "revenge mission" as suggested, and he was the fall guy?
It could all be the reporting of the situation, and journalists inserting whatever "reasonable speculation" in their minds, and it piles up, in the absence of official information. But it does smell awfully funny.
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But it does smell awfully funny.
Just now comng to that conclusion?
OK, that really was uncalled for. I apologize. But I am not withdrawing it. Maybe what I need to do is direct it elsewhere.
stay safe.
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A friend of mine sent me an email that made the following observation:
After reading about the US soldier who shot up Afghanistan civilians, I couldn’t help noticing an irony. There is all this clamor to try this guy quickly and execute him, never mind his having suffered a traumatic brain injury. Yet this Major Hasan, who shot up Fort Hood while screaming Allah Akbar, still hasn’t stood trial, and they are still debating whether he was insane, even with the clear evidence regarding his motive: slay as many infidels as possible. So we have a guy in a war zone who cracks, and he must be executed immediately. But this Muslim psychiatrist who was stateside in a nice safe office all day murders 13, wounds 29 of our own guys, and they try to argue the poor lad suffered post-traumatic stress syndrome, from listening to real soldiers who had actual battle experience. Two and a half years later, they still haven’t tried the murderous bastard.
OK, it's actually the Afghans who are demanding a prompt execution. But it's looking more and more like the soldier who killed Afghans is going to be prosecuted far more quickly - and perhaps more vigorously - than Major Nidal Hasan who killed Americans.
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^^^^Now isn't that a very good point.