Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on April 02, 2012, 10:39:19 AM
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I just saw this link in a work email sent to our safety contacts list. I have known about safety organizations wanting us to get away from "10 and 2" for a while, yet am really bad about doing it after driving the "old" way for so many years (though my "old" way is usually one hand on the top of the steering wheel and the other on the armrest).
I hadn't seen the "avoid hand over hand turning" thing before though. Factoring in the probability of an air bag going off (or more accurately, not going off), this seems to be a clunky way to turn, especially if you have to do a quick, tight turn.
How do you all hold your steering wheels?
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10795756-get-with-the-times-youre-driving-all-wrong
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10 and 2. But then, noting I own has airbags.
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10 and 2, it's hard to unlearn the old way.
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With my knee, it is easier to hold the phone and text that way.
j/k :P
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10 and 2. I have experimented with the low grip, but can't acclimate to it.
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10 O'clock.
Couple of years ago when I had the wreck I was holding the wheel at 10 & 2. Got the 3rd & 4th fingers of both hands pretty well screwed by the airbag. Still cannot make a fist with the right hand (4th finger does not close all the way) which also gives me some small problems with skinny handgun stocks. But since I got rid of those itty-bitty things on the J-frames years ago it really does not make much difference.
The 3 & 9 shuffle your hands manuever was explained to me as avoiding having both hands come off the wheen when making a sharp turn. :facepalm: You cannot make a sharp turn if you are doing the 3 & 9 shuffle your hands move. :facepalm:
stay safe.
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When I'm doing it "right" -- 9 and 3. I'm old enough that I was taught 10 and 2, but then I got into sports car racing and 10 &2 does not work well for precise control at high speed. Completely irrespective of air bags, I was changed over to 9 &3 around 1978 or so. Once I bought my first vehicle with an air bag, I quickly realized that the lower my hands were on the wheel, the less chance I'd have of getting my left hand shoved through the window of the driver's door if the bag deployed. However, 5 & 7 just doesn't give me much control of the vehicle's direction.
To be honest, though, these days I'm more likely to be holding the steering wheel at 9 with the left hand, and a giant Diet Coke with the right hand.
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8 & 4....it's actually safer, less fatiguing, & gives you just as much control as 10 & 2....
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10 O'clock.
Couple of years ago when I had the wreck I was holding the wheel at 10 & 2. Got the 3rd & 4th fingers of both hands pretty well screwed by the airbag. Still cannot make a fist with the right hand (4th finger does not close all the way) which also gives me some small problems with skinny handgun stocks. But since I got rid of those itty-bitty things on the J-frames years ago it really does not make much difference.
The 3 & 9 shuffle your hands manuever was explained to me as avoiding having both hands come off the wheen when making a sharp turn. :facepalm: You cannot make a sharp turn if you are doing the 3 & 9 shuffle your hands move. :facepalm:
stay safe.
My hand position varies a bit, according to what type of vehicle, and what make and model I'm driving. Generally I'm in the 9 and 3 or 8 and 4 area. I'll note that in the picture with the article, the fingers are shown wrapped around the wheel so that they are inside the rim. This can cause unsteady turning as you place your fingers to avoid the spokes. Even worse, should you hit a pothole or whatever, the wheel could whip suddenly, injuring your finger with the spoke.
Push pull turning is a bit awkward to learn at first. I've found it can be picked up easier by practicing with a pizza pan. Grip it as if you were gripping a steering wheel and practice turning it clockwise and counter-clockwise while keeping your hands opposite each other. For instance, turning clockwise, grip the pan with your left hand and turn it clockwise (hand moving up) while your right hand slides along the edge staying opposite your left hand. Then grip with the right hand, pulling down, while the left hand slides down opposite the right. Keep the hands parallel to each other. Keep practicing until it feels natural and you can do it without dropping the pan. Then practice some more using your good china instead. =D
DD
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On a good, calm day, my right hand rests at about 4, and the left hand just kind of floats around. As soon as I get into traffic, or bad weather, or anything remotely exciting, I go to something close to 9 and 3, maybe a little higher. I think that was where my hands were when I had the experience of an air bag deploying in my face. No hand or arm issues.
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Well, I'll be darned. My license expires soon and I'll have to take another driving road test (State requirement for us olde phartes) and I've been practicing the 10 and 2 hold because I thought that was "correct." Maybe I ought to pick up or download a Colorado driver's manual and review it for any more of this new-fangled stuff.
I've also been practicing other things I thought were "recommended."
Like maybe I ought to find out what the deal is with the air bags and steering wheel grip. That's a new one on me. I do hand-over hand steering and can whip that wheel around pretty good that way.
Glad to have spotted this thread --thanks, Ben!
Terry, 230RN
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Is anyone else surprised that people actually use 10 and 2? I guess I thought that was just a textbook thing that no one really does.
I don't think I'm all that consistent. Depends on conditions, mood, and whether I'm shifting frequently, as opposed to highway driving or driving an automatic.
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In the Freightliner, when I am on alert, 9 & 3. Most of the time, left at 8, right at 4 or draped over the gear lever.
In the Yukon I vary with some frequency. 9 & 3 when on alert, 8 & 10 much of the time, occasionally 10 & 2.
I did learn, the hard way driving manual steering cars and trucks off-road, not to hang digits inside the wheel.
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12:00 high
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Is anyone else surprised that people actually use 10 and 2? I guess I thought that was just a textbook thing that no one really does.
On open roads and easy driving, I use my "incorrect" one hand hold, but when I'm, for instance, driving in heavy LA traffic, I automatically and subconsciously go to 10 and 2. At this point in my life, I would be hard-pressed to "automatically" switch to 8 and 4 during stressful driving conditions.
I guess in the original post I should have also added, "How were you taught to hold the wheel?" because that is likely a major factor in what you revert to in stressful driving conditions.
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Meh... 8 and 4, maybe. I drive a manual, so mostly 8, and gearshift I guess. Move my hands around as I get tired of holding the wheel that way.
Steering wheel safety is overplayed. I think the whole thing is borne of teenagers laying back in the seat steering with their foot or knee or something to be cool/silly, and then going off a cliff or whatever. You hear of plenty of accidents where they "lost control of the vehicle", but I can't for the life of me remember EVER hearing of an accident where it was caused by "driver not holding the steering wheel right". Maybe it happens a lot, and they just never write it up that way. I don't know...
The "don't let the airbag break your arms" has some merit to it. However, the accelerometers are programmed to a relatively high degree of lawyer-proofness and will only set it off in very specific circumstances where the crash is going to hurt you more than the airbag going off will. If your hands are on the wheel, it's going to slap them out of the way, and do it hard. Although fingers to the outside of the wheel will offer less resistance to the bag as it goes off.
If you're actually turning the wheel enough to be going hand-over-hand, by default you're going 25mph or less, parking, doing a right-turn etc., or your vehicle has an extremely lousy steering ratio, or you're in a Tokyo Drift competition or Euro style road-rally on dirt. If you turn that hard at the speeds likely to kill you, you're probably already in the process of crashing/dying.
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Right hand on the shifter, knee at 4:00, and left hand holding diet coke.
I'd like to say I learned that from my parents but I pretty much figured that out on my own.
Going up the mountains, there is a stretch nearby that has a 2000 ft altitude differential, by my count 55 turns in a 7.5 miles
Doing that with a 5 speed and one hand on the shifter can be challening, especially with a little 2.5-hamster engine with such a narrow power band.
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My goal in all this practice is to eliminate any sources of checkmarks (or "Xs," maybe) during the driving test. I figure I'll screw up enough things on the test that any low-score habits I can eliminate, should be eliminated.
My insurance ecompany says they'll give me a break on premiums if I take an olde pharte driving course, and I may do that.
I'm getting close to 30 years of driving with no tickets or accidents caused by me, so I figure I'm doing OK in the practical, real world of driving. I hate to sound rebellious, but sometimes recommendations by experts remind me of medical fads which reverse themselves every couple of years.
However, being a good little citizen, I'm willing to listen and learn.
That air-bag stuff seems significant. I gotta research that some more.
Terry, 230RN
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I steer with my knees.
You don't want to know how I shift.
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don't get me started on left leg out the window foot on the mirror drivers
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Hand position varies a lot. Sometimes on the interstate I'll do 10 and 2, other times it's 10 with the left hand and the right hand on the gear shift. Around town the hands are all over the place. If I'm going to make a turn, for example, my left hand goes to the point on the wheel that will be at 9 o' clock when the turn is completed, so I can just release the wheel, let it straighten out after the turn, and then hold it again.
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All over the place.
I drove with my mom and dad for a long time before taking drivers ed, so I didn't run into the 4&8 thing until after I had already established driving habits based on my parents teaching.
So, 10 and 2 when i'm stressed, low or midway up the wheel when I'm comfortable, and (most commen) right hand at one, cause I have a ciggerette in the other hand.
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I drive a stick, so right hand on the shifter and left hand kinda goes here, there and everywhere.
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suicide knobs FTW
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palm wheel with right hand at 2
or left hand at 10 while i toss newspapers
i do use 2 feet on pedals
that stirs some folks up
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All over depending on what I'm driving and doing at the time.
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Anyone out there use steering knobs?
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A15684181%2Ck%3Asteering%20wheel%20knob&page=1
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Anyone out there use steering knobs?
Hehe, illegal in my state.
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On open roads and easy driving, I use my "incorrect" one hand hold, but when I'm, for instance, driving in heavy LA traffic, I automatically and subconsciously go to 10 and 2. At this point in my life, I would be hard-pressed to "automatically" switch to 8 and 4 during stressful driving conditions.
Any learned behavior can be relearned.
In the 50's and 60's, the spokes on steering wheels were positioned such that placing your hands just above the spokes put them pretty much at 10 and 2. Now, either the spokes are low enough that placing the hands above them puts the hands at 9 and 3, or there are two windows between four spokes and the windows are at 9 and 3. 10 and 2 doesn't give good control in an emergency maneuver, anyway. 9 & 3, with the two hands fully opposed, gives significantly better control.
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Hehe, illegal in my state.
Same here, but only when you get the annual inspection. Also have to take the GPS off the dash/window/wherever for the inspection. No, they do not bother to ask about the suction-cup marks. (One time I left the GPS up - they took it off, let it hang loose, and passed the vehicle.)
stay safe.
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don't get me started on left leg out the window foot on the mirror drivers
Never seen that one, myself. I've seen my dad do some mandolin-picking while driving. A number of times. :facepalm:
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I steer with my knees.
You don't want to know how I shift.
I used to drive like that when I was much younger. If you still can, I salute you. (especially the shift part)
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Depends on the road. Curving twisties? 9 and 3. Cruising on the highway? two fingers of left hand resting at around 8 or 9 oclock.
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usually at the 5 and 8 positions on the highway, 10 and 2 around town or offroad.
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8 and 4 for control purposes, very picky about steering wheel to body position. Often a very busy wheel jockey. Usuallly just 8 riding down the highway lesuirely, have to remember to switch arms. Next up, we can start the war about mirror position and two footed driving! >:D [popcorn]
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A couple fingers and a thumb ~8 for cruising. Offroad 9 and 3, if my hand is on the shifter then 1it hand at 12. Depends on the situation.
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two footed driving
No need. The left foot is for operating the clutch (if equipped), dimmer switch (if equipped), parking brake pedal (if equipped), air horn (if equipped) and siren (if equipped). It is not for operating the brake(s) except for on heavy equipment and tractors.
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depends who you ask was quite the spirited debate in the local paper over 2 footed driving
quite a few cabbies do it
was once part of the air force drivers handbook
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My left hand is on the clamp on knob about 9 oclock with my elbow out the window. My right arm is thrown over the seat back............Otherwise, my left hand grips the wheel between the spokes and my right hand is on the gear shift lever.............chris3
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No need. The left foot is for operating the clutch (if equipped), dimmer switch (if equipped), parking brake pedal (if equipped), air horn (if equipped) and siren (if equipped). It is not for operating the brake(s) except for on heavy equipment and tractors.
Well, I'm pretty slick with tractor differential braking except it's my right foot. Still a somewhat new heavy equipment op, that's all over the place, too many control schemes, many, like a grader, no feet needed.
I learned to drive from race cars. You run the brakes with opposite feet, keep your feet where they belong. No chance a one footed driver is going to be as quick to the brake or as smooth with brake throttle transition, no chance at trail braking under power, etc. Yes, at corner mid-point it is many times preferable to be on both pedals.
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Anyone out there use steering knobs?
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A15684181%2Ck%3Asteering%20wheel%20knob&page=1
My preferred method. Also as nothing I drive has an airbag unless the wife is in the passenger seat, I don't worry about hand placement too much.
One hand on the wheel somewhere, the other one holding my beer.
On the bike the throttle gets the friction lock and left hand on the bar so I can access the beer with the right hand,
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Some rockbuckets have variable speed rear-ends and transmissions. There were times I had hands on two shift levers in 50mph traffic with 9 yards( gross weight ~40,000 lbs) on. Don't even ask about when I ate lunch going down the road...
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Well, I perused this thread waiting for kiddo at kindergarten, so I had plenty of driving left to figure it out.
10 and 2 did not last as long as driver's ed. I tend to go with one hand in the top half and one in the bottom. Seems to be a good combo, keep control at the top half, precision at the bottom half. Within that pattern, I vary a lot. Depends on the road, mostly. For bad weather, 9 is about perfect, right hand around 4 or so, but usually 2:30 and 7 or so. I often default to one-handed, even when I'm not doing anything with the other hand.
Maybe I'm careless, but it just seems to work better. I am ill-at-ease when symmetrical. On the morning drive, I'll often have left at 8 and hold kiddo's hand with the right. The joys of a small car =)
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I have no clue. I'm usually looking out the windshield instead of at my hands. :lol:
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8. I'm left handed and it is convenient and comfortable for longer drives. I'll go to two hands if I am doing much turning.
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I learned to drive from race cars. You run the brakes with opposite feet, keep your feet where they belong. No chance a one footed driver is going to be as quick to the brake or as smooth with brake throttle transition, no chance at trail braking under power, etc. Yes, at corner mid-point it is many times preferable to be on both pedals.
Knew a guy in college that drove his mini-van 2-footed. Claimed it was smoother, and how Michael Schumacher drove. Didn't seem to occur to him that there's more than a trivial difference between his 4000lb <200hp mini-van and Schumi's (at the time) 1320lb >850hp Ferrari. Smoothness based on driving style is not much of a factor in that mini-van.
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My first vehicle was a manual, so I got into the habit of having my left at 12 and my right on the stick. Current vehicle has no stick, but I still drive it the same.
I do go to 10 and 2 (or sometimes 9 and 3) when the driving conditions get more difficult.
For interstate driving I sometimes do 8 and 4, or just 8.
I learned to drive from race cars. You run the brakes with opposite feet, keep your feet where they belong. No chance a one footed driver is going to be as quick to the brake or as smooth with brake throttle transition, no chance at trail braking under power, etc. Yes, at corner mid-point it is many times preferable to be on both pedals.
I've tried it a few times, and I just can't get used to it. I can see where it can give more control, but I learned on a truck that had a manual transmission, and I still associated using the left foot to break with killing the engine. :laugh:
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Old habits die hard. My absolute first wheel time as a kid was an old racing kart vs the local elementary school baseball diamond. Pretty sure I remember getting the stare of disapproval if I ever lifted the throttle, so it was all brake or steering. =D My race cars were only 1600lbs/400hp, but you catch on pretty quick about what you can and can't do with a brake pedal. Bonus points if only 3 of the wheels carry brakes.
On any vehicle with a working non-blocked rearview I also set the mirrors to make everyone else cuss. Kick the left mirror out to where I can barely see the edge of the car with my head leaning on the driver's glass, lean to the right same amount and repeat. Takes a good while to warm up to, really a whole different scan pattern or concept. Blind spots are gone, the only way someone can sneak in is to be two or more lanes off and slightly behind and then slide over to you. Which you should have already seen them coming to that spot.... Between that and actively managing the space in front and behind my car I expect to know where everyone is at on the road. I will give a quick blind spot glance but if I need to change lanes in a hurry I know where the hole is already.
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With a proper wheel in a high performance setting, 9 & 3, daily, depending on the wheel, 9 & 3 or 8 & 4.
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I didn't know trail braking was a thing with cars, I used to do it with the bike in a tight corner especially on hills and found it useful but never tried in in the coupe.
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On any vehicle with a working non-blocked rearview I also set the mirrors to make everyone else cuss. Kick the left mirror out to where I can barely see the edge of the car with my head leaning on the driver's glass, lean to the right same amount and repeat. Takes a good while to warm up to, really a whole different scan pattern or concept. Blind spots are gone, the only way someone can sneak in is to be two or more lanes off and slightly behind and then slide over to you. Which you should have already seen them coming to that spot.... Between that and actively managing the space in front and behind my car I expect to know where everyone is at on the road. I will give a quick blind spot glance but if I need to change lanes in a hurry I know where the hole is already.
Exactly how I set my mirrors. I've seen it called "tuned" mirrors. It's not something you should do in a larger (bus, truck) vehicle, but it works great in a normal car.
Here's a good link describing it: http://www.smartmotorist.com/car-accessories-fuel-and-maintenance/adjusting-your-mirrors-correctly.html (http://www.smartmotorist.com/car-accessories-fuel-and-maintenance/adjusting-your-mirrors-correctly.html)
DD
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10 and 2 doesn't give good control in an emergency maneuver, anyway. 9 & 3, with the two hands fully opposed, gives significantly better control.
10 and 2 worked well enough this morning.
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Today left hand at 12 other hand on phone or adjusting radio. :laugh:
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On any vehicle with a working non-blocked rearview I also set the mirrors to make everyone else cuss. Kick the left mirror out to where I can barely see the edge of the car with my head leaning on the driver's glass, lean to the right same amount and repeat. Takes a good while to warm up to, really a whole different scan pattern or concept. Blind spots are gone, the only way someone can sneak in is to be two or more lanes off and slightly behind and then slide over to you. Which you should have already seen them coming to that spot.... Between that and actively managing the space in front and behind my car I expect to know where everyone is at on the road. I will give a quick blind spot glance but if I need to change lanes in a hurry I know where the hole is already.
I started doing that a few years ago after I read about it somewhere (I think it was Popular Mechanics). Works a LOT better on roads with multiple lanes. I still swing the side mirrors in a bit closer on roads with only two lanes, though. Don't need it there.
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OK, next question......middle finger on the right hand or middle finger on the left hand?.......
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OK, next question......middle finger on the right hand or middle finger on the left hand?.......
Both. Simultaneously.
Mother *expletive deleted*er.
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Depends. Learned old school 10 & 2. Learned 8 & 4 and a bunch of other stuff in EVOC training at the academy.
In practice it's 12 o'clock high or one-handed at the 8:00 or 9:00 position with thumb and forefinger wrapped around spoke.
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I hold the steering wheel between my left index finger and thumb, usually holding at the 9 o'clock position with elbow resting on the door sill. In crappy weather I may hold the wheel a little tighter.
bob
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With a proper wheel in a high performance setting, 9 & 3, daily, depending on the wheel, 9 & 3 or 8 & 4.
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I'm going to guess 1977 to 1982, now where you were is trickier, supermodifid or 30x90?
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I live in California. Right hand at 4, left hand out the window with a single digit showing!
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I'm going to guess 1977 to 1982, now where you were is trickier, supermodifid or 30x90?
Boothill Speedway, Greenwood (outside of Shreveport), LA, Small Block Modified, most anything goes within a Cubic Inch cap.
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My brother owned Quality Frame & Alignment on Raymond St off of Midway in Shreveport, LA and I was the front end / chassis mechanic. I built the chassis on that car and several others. Here is what the shop looked like back in the day:
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More of my work:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fcars%2Fbug-eyes.gif&hash=8668f570bf06d3965e4ed41ace1dd88acb43b34c)
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My brother owned Quality Frame & Alignment on Raymond St off of Midway in Shreveport, LA and I was the front end / chassis mechanic. I built the chassis on that car and several others.
Huh. Judging by your avatar, I thought you worked as a mild-manner reporter. With glasses.
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Close, Sr Programmer/Analyst by day, Blues/Funk Rock drummer by night!
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and now, full-time gimp!
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9:45 and 4:27