Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AmbulanceDriver on April 20, 2012, 12:03:38 PM
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Story here: http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20120419/Death.At.Sea.Cruise.Ship/?cid=hero_media
Here's my summary of it. 3 guys out fishing in a little boat off the coast of Panama. Motor dies. 16 days later, they have survived on the fish they have caught and 5 gallons of water - not exactly a lot of supplies. They spot a Princess Cruise Lines cruise ship sailing past in the distance, start waving a red shirt and orange life vest. Several people out bird watching see the boat, spot the folks waving. They report this to the line's sales rep that was on board, even have her look through one of the scopes to see what they're talking about. Passengers are assured that it'll be passed up the line. One of the passengers, noticing that nothing is being done, even goes to their room, gets the ship's location from one of the programs on the TV there, and fires off an e-mail to the Coast Guard hoping something will happen.
Ship sails on. Two weeks later, the only survivor is rescued. He had to push the bodies of his two friends overboard when their corpses started to rot in the heat.
Princess Cruise Lines says the captain and officer on duty were never notified. They are conducting an "internal investigation".
Frankly, I think that whoever dropped the ball on passing the info up the chain of command needs to be brought up on manslaughter charges. I also think that the passengers, when they noticed that the ship wasn't changing course or anything like that should have made themselves an unbearable nuisance until they got up the chain of command and talked to somebody more in charge than a sales rep. But even their fellow passengers said, "you did everything you could." I disagree.
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Also, whoever received that email at the Coast Guard should be brought up on UCMJ charges for dereliction of duty.
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Also, whoever received that email at the Coast Guard should be brought up on UCMJ charges for dereliction of duty.
Yeah because the USCG has the resources to invistigate a random email from a non US flag vessel about a non US flag vessel in international waters off of Panama. ;/
Should they be brought up on charges for not stopping the Somali pirates as well.
Tough stuff there. I know that the cruise lines actually make it very very difficult for the passengers to interact with the crew sailing the ship (as opposed to the hospitality crew) because, frankly that crew is busy. It seems like in this case that contributed to these deaths, but it's still not a bad policy.
As a professional mariner, I would have stopped that ship. There's several things that could have been done to get the operating crew's attention RFN but it's likely that the passengers didn't know that. I'd say they should have stopped and told every crewmember they could find untill the engines stopped not just one sales rep.
Also, if I've said it once I've said it a thousand times, Cell phones only count as back up commo on a boat in salt water. If you're getting farther from land then you can swim you need a radio. Salt water is not a place to screw around.
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Respectfully, it takes little effort for someone to make a phone call.
"Hey, Sir, i got an email from a passenger aboard such and such vessel. They said there's a fishing boat stranded near them."
Then, they look up that ship's position, get in touch with the ship, and investigate.
Maybe i'm ignorant. I'm not in the navy or coast guard... but the position reporting and tracking capabilities of the AIS stuff we use at my job are pretty doggone impressive.
I don't know, but if all the vessels in the great lakes carry transponders that our CG assets can see on a map real time (and they do, I know this because I'm looking at them now through our AIS layer on our map), then it stands to reason something like this should be easily available for tracking a large cruise liner.
Agree on the rest of your post though.
And, if there's no way for a hospitality crew member to communicate a situation to the actual sailing crew, there's something horribly wrong.
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double post sorry
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Yeah because the USCG has the resources to invistigate a random email from a non US flag vessel about a non US flag vessel in international waters off of Panama. ;/
Should they be brought up on charges for not stopping the Somali pirates as well.
Tough stuff there. I know that the cruise lines actually make it very very difficult for the passengers to interact with the crew sailing the ship (as opposed to the hospitality crew) because, frankly that crew is busy. It seems like in this case that contributed to these deaths, but it's still not a bad policy.
As a professional mariner, I would have stopped that ship. There's several things that could have been done to get the operating crew's attention RFN but it's likely that the passengers didn't know that. I'd say they should have stopped and told every crewmember they could find untill the engines stopped not just one sales rep.
Also, if I've said it once I've said it a thousand times, Cell phones only count as back up commo on a boat in salt water. If you're getting farther from land then you can swim you need a radio. Salt water is not a place to screw around.
However the sales rep that was informed should be held liabiable if she failed to report what was going on. She would have known who to tell and had a responcibility to do so.
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Respectfully, it takes little effort for someone to make a phone call.
"Hey, Sir, i got an email from a passenger aboard such and such vessel. They said there's a fishing boat stranded near them."
Then, they look up that ship's position, get in touch with the ship, and investigate.
Maybe i'm ignorant. I'm not in the navy or coast guard... but the position reporting and tracking capabilities of the AIS stuff we use at my job are pretty doggone impressive.
I don't know, but if all the vessels in the great lakes carry transponders that our CG assets can see on a map real time (and they do, I know this because I'm looking at them now through our AIS layer on our map), then it stands to reason something like this should be easily available for tracking a large cruise liner.
AIS is pretty cool. And I'm sure the cruise ship has it.
But expecting random guardsman that gets an e-mail from .....(what did she just go to their web page? who did she email anyway?)to know or frankly have the time to find out and start a trans national rescue op is fantasy. If she knew the SALTS mail address of one of the 210's in the area then yeah, maybe they could check it out, but she would have been better off e-mailing Princess Cruiselines direct. I'll bet someone at the home office had the INMARSAT number to the bridge of that ship.
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You learn something new everyday.
I wasn't trying to be condescending or anything... I genuinely don't know how these things work
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So in real life, Chuck Noland would have never survived to find out that Kelly had married someone else ... =(
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Two weeks later, the only survivor is rescued. He had to push the bodies of his two friends overboard when their corpses started to rot in the heat.
So he survives, they're dead, and their bodies are conveniently missing. Somebody should ask him what human flesh tastes like, see if he slips up.
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^^^ Is there any possible answer other than 'like chicken'?
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^^^ Is there any possible answer other than 'like chicken'?
From what I've read..."tasted a bit like veal".
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So he survives, they're dead, and their bodies are conveniently missing. Somebody should ask him what human flesh tastes like, see if he slips up.
The "other" other white meat.
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I would've gone man overboard in awesome fashion so the ship would have to stop. Course I'm young and dumb enough...
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Pulling the fire alarms on several decks at once is more likely to get a fast reaction from the crew.
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I would've gone man overboard in awesome fashion so the ship would have to stop. Course I'm young and dumb enough...
You're also assuming the ship would have stopped to look for you. Recent history with persons overboard on cruise ships tends to suggest that a passenger or two per voyage is considered collateral damage, not worth adjusting the schedule for. I suspect the same applied to the stranded fishermen. My guess is the captain (or whoever was the officer of the watch) simply didn't want to risk being late for the next port-of-call.
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Lemme tell you, the box score for people who have gone overboard on ships I've been on is not good. Don't do it. Passenger confused hotel staff with a mariner. That's the problem with floating hotels, lots of hotel staff with zero nautical knowledge. No professional mariner should ever refuse to render aid.
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Cruiseliner crews seem to be really sketchy.
What was the name of that Captain that abandoned his stranded ship in the Med before any proper evacuation was prepared for the passengers??
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Aw come on, he just slipped and fell into the life boat. Give the poor guy a break.
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Cruiseliner crews seem to be really sketchy.
What was the name of that Captain that abandoned his stranded ship in the Med before any proper evacuation was prepared for the passengers??
Francesco Schettino. An Italian Coast Guard commander really called him out during the incident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz4M0JCznAc&feature=fvst
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Pulling the fire alarms on several decks at once is more likely to get a fast reaction from the crew.
This....or finding your way to the Engineering deck to throw a few random switches....
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Aw come on, he just slipped and fell into the life boat. Give the poor guy a break.
And the reef he used to cut open the hull of his shiny cruise liner wasn't on his nautical charts (even though it's on tourist maps of the island).
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I was on a cruise ship a few weeks ago (wife and kids made me go). We smelled smoke in our cabin and reported it. Three youthful native Caribbean employees showed up and agreed they smelled smoke. After about 5 minutes of talking about it, one of them said, "it's probably electrical", implying that it was no big deal. 5 minutes later, they tell us that maybe we should report it. I about lost it then, and told them that I already did report it -TO YOU -why don't YOU call someone! One of them then used our phone to call someone. They told us that someone would get with us very soon. No one did - at all. The smell cleared up eventually, so we let it drop. I believe that is the mindset of the staff on most cruise ships. They are generally staffed by people who are not overly motivated and have been locked on a floating motel/bar/casino for the better part of a year.
Might help to explain an event like this.
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And here one of my dream vacations is an Alaskan cruise.
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http://www.weather.com/outlook/weather-news/news/articles/fishermen-die-in-elements-as-cruise-ship-passes_2012-04-21
On Thursday, Princess Cruises, based in Santa Clarita, Calif., said a preliminary investigation showed that passengers' reports that they had spotted a boat in distress never made it to Capt. Edward Perrin or the officer on duty.
If it did, the company said, the captain and crew would have altered course to rescue the men, just as the cruise line has done more than 30 times in the last 10 years. The company expressed sympathy for the men and their families.
Sounds to me like the floaters were spotted and word was passed to the hospitality staff who failed to pass it up the chain. The company said they had a history of altering course to affect rescue. I wonder if those were man overboard as opposed to a floater waaay out there.
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Also, if I've said it once I've said it a thousand times, Cell phones only count as back up commo on a boat in salt water. If you're getting farther from land then you can swim you need a radio. Salt water is not a place to screw around.
QFT.
I bought a handheld VHF radio for my kayak in anticipation of hitting the salt for salmon, rockfish, ling cod and halibut. I spent a little extra to get one that has GPS integrated into it along with DSC capabilties. The DSC is pretty trick. You can use to hail just a friend and then switch both radios automatically to a preset channel. Or with a simple button send an SOS signal. The CG monitors for those signals, and they not only alert them that you're in distress but also includes your GPS coordinates. If you register the radio for an MMSI number the CG will also automatically get your name, a description of your boat, and your emergency contact information.
However, since handheld VHF's max out at about an 8 mile range (and to get that range the recieving station's antenna would have to be 20+ feet above water level), I also have a SPOT PLB. As long as it's not the landlord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_white_shark) coming to collect rent I figure between those two I should be able to get rescued, or at least make it easy to find my body.
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[soapbox]
In addition to being a professional mariner for the Army I have a private pleasure boat that I use to play on Tampa Bay and the near coast waters of the Gulf of Mexico. I keep my 21' boat within 10 miles of land at all times. I also get to chat and talk with other boaters a fair amount so this conversation comes up a lot.
Laying Wake has a fixed mount DSC VHF connected to my chart plotter. I have a floating hand held VHF in a drybag along with a 406Mhz EPIRB. That's it kills me how many folks tell me that I'm stupid to spend that much money on electronics. Granted I used my Port Supply account to buy it, but it was about $1100 dollars of electronics, including the color chart plotter. I've had people standing on $40,000 boats tell me that a $400 EPIRB was a stupid, over priced extravagance. :facepalm:
I'm also GMDSS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Maritime_Distress_Safety_System) qualified. Fun Fact: For Sea Area A2 (roughly from 20 miles to 200 miles off shore) The average time to rescue if you have a 406Mhz EPIRB is 12 hrs. If you just made a VHF call before the boat went down: 72 hrs. If you don't have a radio: Not enough people get rescued to get a useful average time.
Seriously, bring commo. Then have a back up.
[/soapbox]
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Not sure if your post dogmush is directed at me, but if it is, what is insufficient about my commo setup?
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Not sure if your post dogmush is directed at me, but if it is, what is insufficient about my commo setup?
Not directed at you, an agreement and expansion on both of our previous posts. You're doing better then many power boaters, and are as prepared a kayaker as I've met. Preparedness on the water is a thing of mine so I tend to be long winded. Short of something that takes you and the boat down instantly you're set.
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Gotcha. FWIW, I also have a semi-dry suit (neoprene neck gasket rather than latex) that I wear everytime I go out, plus a PFD. The salt water here in the PNW is lethally cold if you don't have good immersion gear - it's not Bering Sea cold, but 45-50F year round is typical in the Puget Sound. Haven't done any surf launches yet, but when I do I'll also make sure I have a helmet.
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Laying Wake has a fixed mount DSC VHF connected to my chart plotter. I have a floating hand held VHF in a drybag along with a 406Mhz EPIRB. That's it kills me how many folks tell me that I'm stupid to spend that much money on electronics. Granted I used my Port Supply account to buy it, but it was about $1100 dollars of electronics, including the color chart plotter. I've had people standing on $40,000 boats tell me that a $400 EPIRB was a stupid, over priced extravagance. :facepalm:
Respectfully, why in the name of Vrishna on a flaming pogo do folks NOT buy EPIRB's if they're going to the middle of nowhere? They're $400-600, which is a LOT cheaper than your life. How many "college kids lost in the wilderness" movies would end in about 15 minutes if folks carried a handgun, a basic medical kit and an EPIRB?
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Respectfully, why in the name of Vrishna on a flaming pogo do folks NOT buy EPIRB's if they're going to the middle of nowhere? They're $400-600, which is a LOT cheaper than your life. How many "college kids lost in the wilderness" movies would end in about 15 minutes if folks carried a handgun, a basic medical kit and an EPIRB?
Because that would make the outing absurdly expensive-er. Us college students can barely afford guns; and you wonder why we don't drop an extra 5 hun? Are you kiddin' me?
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I've been going out in the mountains and woods by myself since high school and never needed any of that stuff - except these days I do carry a gun just in case. Back then I was immortal and didn't need any protection.
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Because that would make the outing absurdly expensive-er. Us college students can barely afford guns; and you wonder why we don't drop an extra 5 hun? Are you kiddin' me?
No kidding, I couldn't either back in the day. Hence why I went in groups, had other commo, etc.
Just making the same point as dogmush. If you can afford a boat, you can usually afford commo. Or use common sense workarounds.
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Because that would make the outing absurdly expensive-er. Us college students can barely afford guns; and you wonder why we don't drop an extra 5 hun? Are you kiddin' me?
Uh huh.
North Face Jacket $250 (http://www.thenorthface.com/catalog/sc-gear/mens-jackets-vests/men-39-s-alpine-project-ws-soft-shell-jacket.html)
PLB (sorta) $99 (http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|135|714833|320722&id=1257664)
Guess which one a the college students around here are more likely to have. Yes, even though that jacket hasn't been needed in FL since Saber Tooth Tigers roamed the woods, they're more likely to have it. They (Hikers, bikers, boaters, skiers, recrational outdoorsfolk) assume they can be rescued wherever they happen to be.
*If I messed sarcasm, sorry. If that post was in earnest, I think you're mistaken.
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No kidding, I couldn't either back in the day. Hence why I went in groups, had other commo, etc.
Just making the same point as dogmush. If you can afford a boat, you can usually afford commo. Or use common sense workarounds.
That was what I was thinking. $500 is not much compared to an open sea fishing boat and associated costs.
Hiking is in another league depending on how serious you take it.
I do agree that something is needed. I mean, look at what happened to Tucker and Dale. Minding their own business out at their lake house in the remote woods and they are set upon by crazy suicide driven college kids.
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$500 is not much compared to an open sea fishing boat and associated costs.
Depends on whether or not you are a poor fisherman off the coast of Panama ...
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I've been going out in the mountains and woods by myself since high school and never needed any of that stuff - except these days I do carry a gun just in case. Back then I was immortal and didn't need any protection.
This makes me think. It is not uncommon that I am hiking, biking, snow-shoeing or dual-sporting by myself out in the beyond. I always have the 10 essentials, a handgun and a cell with me, and my wife knows where I am and my ETA, but I wonder about the SPOT devices. One of the reasons I have not done it in the past is that with the tree cover here, I often cannot get a GPS signal, and would the SPOT be equally useless in that setting?
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Respectfully, why in the name of Vrishna on a flaming pogo do folks NOT buy EPIRB's if they're going to the middle of nowhere? They're $400-600, which is a LOT cheaper than your life. How many "college kids lost in the wilderness" movies would end in about 15 minutes if folks carried a handgun, a basic medical kit and an EPIRB?
I deal with idiots who won't spend a dime on navigation/location equipment but decide to hike in a dangerous, rugged area all the time. They won't even stoop to asking us for info before they go in.
And then they wonder why their cell phone suddenly doesn't work in the middle of nowhere and they can't call for help and they completely lose their *expletive deleted*it and we have to rescue them. I'd prefer to leave them in the woods as snacks for Yogi, but we are mandated to help...
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Any vessel is required by maritime law to render aid to any other vessel in distress - and granted, a cruise ship sales rep probably doesn't know this from her backside, but how about whoever was on watch? I'm sorry but if a bunch of civilians spotted the fishing boat from the deck, whoever was standing watch on the bridge should have spotted it too.
As to VHF radios, I never get on a boat without my handheld. Any boat. Even a ferry crossing. If anyone had had one on the deck of that cruise ship, they could have hailed the bridge of the cruise ship that way and reported the fishing boat. Duh.
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I deal with idiots who won't spend a dime on navigation/location equipment but decide to hike in a dangerous, rugged area all the time. They won't even stoop to asking us for info before they go in.
And then they wonder why their cell phone suddenly doesn't work in the middle of nowhere and they can't call for help and they completely lose their *expletive deleted* and we have to rescue them. I'd prefer to leave them in the woods as snacks for Yogi, but we are mandated to help...
It's amazing that us old farts even survived those dark ages before cell phones and GPS :lol:
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*If I messed sarcasm, sorry. If that post was in earnest, I think you're mistaken.
No sarcasm. If someone's asking why people don't buy a $400-600 item, one easy answer is that it would make the entry fee for off-the-beaten-path adventure too high for some to even participate. "It's cheap compared to your life." Yeah, well, if I could find someone that valued my life as highly as I do, and was willing to give me that amount of money, that'd be great.
Now if a college student has parents that would spend $250 to buy him a coat, maybe they would spring for an expensive gizmo. I wouldn't know.
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This makes me think. It is not uncommon that I am hiking, biking, snow-shoeing or dual-sporting by myself out in the beyond. I always have the 10 essentials, a handgun and a cell with me, and my wife knows where I am and my ETA, but I wonder about the SPOT devices. One of the reasons I have not done it in the past is that with the tree cover here, I often cannot get a GPS signal, and would the SPOT be equally useless in that setting?
Supposedly the latest generation PLB's are good enough to get a good GPS signal even in heavy timber. I haven't tested mine for that capabilty yet, but when I do I'll try to remember to post a report.
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No sarcasm. If someone's asking why people don't buy a $400-600 item, one easy answer is that it would make the entry fee for off-the-beaten-path adventure too high for some to even participate. "It's cheap compared to your life." Yeah, well, if I could find someone that valued my life as highly as I do, and was willing to give me that amount of money, that'd be great.
Now if a college student has parents that would spend $250 to buy him a coat, maybe they would spring for an expensive gizmo. I wouldn't know.
The $400-$600 gizmo goes with the $20,000+ boat. The gizmo for basic off the beaten path adventure is <$100. Still not free, I know, but pretty dang cheap when added/compared to the other stuff you'll need to go off the beaten path. (Knife, food, water, pack, boots, clothes, map, good compass)
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I've been going out in the mountains and woods by myself since high school and never needed any of that stuff - except these days I do carry a gun just in case. Back then I was immortal and didn't need any protection.
I used to just carry a compass and a Bowie knife. The compass is a rather interesting device. If you look at it once in awhile whilst walking in, then when you want/need to walk out you just line up the pointy thing the same way on the dial, and head the opposite direction. They don't even need batteries!
The problem is, too many college-educated weenies don't have any idea how nature works. For example, say you're lost and you don't have even a compass. You come to a stream. Which way do you go from there? Anyone with any sense will choose downstream, because streams eventually become rivers, and people build cities on rivers. Plus, if you follow the river you'll always have at least a constant source of water.
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How do you folks feel about signal mirrors? I'm kind of curious since I just started playing around with them, but obviously, I can't "test" them by flashing at passing planes, etc.
Deep woods use? Maritime use? SHTF rescue use?
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How do you folks feel about signal mirrors? I'm kind of curious since I just started playing around with them, but obviously, I can't "test" them by flashing at passing planes, etc.
Deep woods use? Maritime use? SHTF rescue use?
Signal mirrors are nice to have and don't take up much space/weight. They do attract attention if the person being flashed has a clue about signalling.
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I have a signal mirror that came packed with my survival kit. I figure that between the typical tree cover and the cloud cover in my area, my chances of using it for signalling are pretty low.
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Cruiseliner crews seem to be really sketchy.
What was the name of that Captain that abandoned his stranded ship in the Med before any proper evacuation was prepared for the passengers??
It goes back to the 19th century. There's a famous incident of a passenger ship's crew abandoning the ship at the first hint of an accident and reporting the passengers dead. Here was no accident and the ship, with passengers safe was recovered a few days later.
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The compass is a rather interesting device. If you look at it once in awhile whilst walking in, then when you want/need to walk out you just line up the pointy thing the same way on the dial, and head the opposite direction. They don't even need batteries!
Never much needed a compass in Colorado.
If you are walking UP a mountain, then it's pretty obvious that to get back where ever you started, you need to walk DOWN. ;)
The worst that can happen is that you end up in a different valley than where you started, which almost happened to me once in a fog but I suddenly noticed that the rocks underfoot didn't look right. So we backtracked up the ridge and took a different spur.
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Because that would make the outing absurdly expensive-er. Us college students can barely afford guns; and you wonder why we don't drop an extra 5 hun? Are you kiddin' me?
Cobra derringers are cheap.....and you shouldn't have to shoot yourself more than once.....