Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MrsSmith on May 07, 2012, 03:53:07 PM
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Realized this morning that it's been about a year since I bought the carry ammo I'm currently using for my 9mm. I thought I recalled someone saying you need to replace your carry ammo once a year or so just to be on the safe side. Where do y'all stand on this? If it matters, I'm using Pow R'Ball.
Thanks!
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It's strange that folks seem to feel the need to tell everybody to replace their carry ammo every 6 to 12 months, but insist that bulk ammo (10 or more rounds in one container) is good for decades if kept dry and away from extreme temperature swings. Te reputation of military surplus ammo is, generally speaking, impecable.
I look at the ammo in my carry piece every once in a while to make sure there is nothing clogging up the front end, and that no signs of corrosion have appeared. That's because it gets exposed to more environmental variables than the stuff in ammo boxes (metal and cardboard). I trust it in my handgun as much as I trust it in the box on the shelf.
I think the mantra of shooting up carry ammo every 6 to 12 months comes from the ammo manufacturers, who otherwise might see a dip in sales. That or the cleaning products folks, who know (hope?) that after we shoot up those 5 to 18 rounds we are going to clean our carry piece.
As for PowerBall - the only thing I'd be concerned about is the plastic deteriorating. Maybe hit it with a hammer if you want to see if it has?
stay safe.
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I think it was primarily to assure that people that didn't shoot very much or at all to at least got out once/twice a year and sent rounds down range in the hope of them becoming somewhat more proficient at hitting the obtuse side of the proverbial agricultural storage structure.
So if you are getting in enough practice otherwise (and I do believe that you do), and your carry ammo is free from small critters, dead insects, and various forms of metallic wear and fatigue, then there's no need.
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What I actually carry I try to shoot up once a year or so, as it gets exposed to everything from pocket lint to gun oil. I'll then replace it with ammo from the same batch I bought previously. So while my carry ammo doesn't get to be over a year old, it gets replaced with stuff that may be several years old.
Until I run low and buy more.
(Practice is either with handloads or "cheap" generic ammo like WWB or Fed AE)
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I don't understand the question. Shouldn't your carry ammo get cycled just from the normal process of shooting people over road rage incidents and other petty squabbles?
You people don't escalate enough.
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"It's strange that folks seem to feel the need to tell everybody to replace their carry ammo every 6 to 12 months, but insist that bulk ammo (10 or more rounds in one container) is good for decades if kept dry and away from extreme temperature swings."
Guns are generally carried with some oil in them.
Oil releases vapors.
Oil vapors can, over time, significantly degrade the ammunition carried in them.
It's prudent to cycle the ammo you've carried in your gun as part of your training regime and replace it with ammunition that has been stored in the box in a proper environment.
Properly stored, and even subject to temperature swings, modern ammunition can last just as long as that bandolier of 1950s GI .30-06.
Plus, I don't really see too many recommendations that anyone load their carry guns with 40 year old military ball ammo, so that argument is really quite moot in this case.
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I shoot my auto loaders about once a year with my carry ammo. I do it to make sure my mags are still working properly with the hollow points and haven't developed a problem that is still allowing them to cycle my cast TC or roundnose.
My revolver gets carried with my loads and they get cycled on a regular basis due to the vermin and varmints.
jim
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The same people who recommend rotating out your carry ammo are the same ones that recommend shooting 200+ rounds through your carry gun to ensure reliability....and both groups tend to get advertising money from ammo companies....
....just sayin'.....
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I'd agree with the "once a year" rotation theory. Honestly, for a well kept gun and holster that's not worn in extremely wet or corrosive environments, once a year is probably too conservative in reality. However, better safe than sorry IMO.
Odds are with quality factory ammo, if the ammo is bright and clean, and not visibly deformed, gouged, or the round is seated deeper than it's brothers, it's going to fire. However that's the odds. Since it's something under your control, might as well make those odds stack in your favor as much as possible. Honestly, in Mike's scenario of being loaded in a gun with oil, if the bullet is finger tight or better in the case, and the primer is properly seated, I'd say the gun would have to be dripping wet with low viscosity high-VOC petroleum distillates.
Even then, actively trying to disable reloading components like spilled powder, and the occasional bent/crushed primer with stuff like WD-40, direct application, and a soak for 72 hours on my workbench in a jar, some powders still burned vigorously, and the primer I placed under a sledge hammer head in my garage and whacked it, still went off. I just throw powder on my lawn, and unwanted/wrecked primers in trash that's not going to get crushed or burned.
The biggest real world potential problem with carry ammo is if the pistol is a semi-auto and unloaded/reloaded with any frequency, the top round in the magazine or one that's going into the chamber can get some setback in the case, creating potentially dangerous pressure, or perhaps inconsistent pressure that could mess up cycling and ejection causing a malfunction, stovepipe jam etc. when you least want it.
So I say once a year is good. Just in case.
If it's slipped your mind and it's been a handful of years, if the ammo is good and clean looking, you were more than likely fine all that time too. However might as well replace it on better safe than sorry aspect of the thing.
Bigger than the ammo life is probably just keeping things cycling so the weird oddball hang-up or rough patch, or lube-free dry patch of freak metal friction isn't hanging up somewhere in the gun, or ammo stack in the magazine.
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Yep Winchester and Remington both pay me thousands per year to put up posts like that o.e.
I've see the effects of oil fume contamination on cartridges. It wouldn't fill you with confidence.
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Yep Winchester and Remington both pay me thousands per year to put up posts like that o.e.
I've see the effects of oil fume contamination on cartridges. It wouldn't fill you with confidence.
What time frame did you see the deterioriation? Months? Years? Decades? Sealed primers & case mouths?
And can you send some of that ammo ad money my way?....I need to buy more of your sponsored product....
=D
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Honestly, in Mike's scenario of being loaded in a gun with oil, if the bullet is finger tight or better in the case, and the primer is properly seated, I'd say the gun would have to be dripping wet...
You forgot one critical component... time. Stored in a closed environment time is all you need even with a low voc oil.
Some years ago I witnessed it first hand. A .22 that had been stored in a box wrapped in an oiled rag and with two boxes of. 22s. .22s are better sealed than any centerfire round yet after less than two years every cartridge was either totally dead or a severe hang fire or a Popper that barely pushed the bullet out the barrel.
If that doesn't convince anyone, how about relative cost?
How much does a magazine of good rounds cost? 5 bucks?
How much will it cost you if you pull hour gun and the ammo isn't functional due to an issue like this?
How much cost to your family and loved ones if someone sticks a knife in your gut because you're too much of a cheap chickenshit to rotate your ammo?
How unbelievably stupid is it to put tens or hundreds of hours into training, research, and practice with your carry gun if you do a faceplant fail on something so fundamentally simple of a preventative measure as rotating the ammo upon which you depend and upon which you stake. Your life on a daily basis?
At that point as far as I'm concerned the failure element in that scenario is assumption that once you touch them you've imbued your cartridges with some sort of immortality.
Silly.
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I know more than one otherwise reasonable person who has been carrying the same ammo in their gun for the better part of a decade. Try to talk to them about it and they get a glazed look and drift off.
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Sealed box, oiled rag, two years....I can see that happening....
Open-top holster, nightstand, oiled only when cleaned....not so much....
Any other examples?.....
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Sealed box, oiled rag, two years....I can see that happening....
Open-top holster, nightstand, oiled only when cleaned....not so much....
Any other examples?.....
Heat cycles.
Think of a gun, magazine, or speed strip in a glove box in your car in the winter, spring, summer, fall.
Then, think of the gun or mag next to your sweaty side in the middle of dearlorditwonteverendsummer.
FTR, the same ammo that will last decades/indefinitely in a climate controlled warehouse will become junk on a prepo ship in a matter of months:
* heat cycles
* humidity
* salt water "spray(1)"
There are guys who model this stuff for DOD and are paid to figure out when the munitions have gone bad.
All it took was one squib load to convince me that 12 months & out is the answer.
(1) Really just super-small droplets in the air that get EVERYWHERE on a ship.
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There are a lot of factors that can contribute to ammunition failure. That doesn't mean that if you wait two years or ten years you're guaranteed to have a failure. It just means you're more likely to have a failure over time. Comparing ammunition stored in a cool dry place with ammo in a daily carry piece doesn't hold.
Bullet setback mentioned by AJ is a big issue. One way to help limit the damage is to always chamber the same round. Strip the top round from the magazine, insert the round that had been chambered and rack it in, then reload the top round into the magazine. Watch your chambered round for setback, but if you consistently do this you won't have setback in your other cartridges.
As Mike says, shooting up a magazine a year is pretty cheap insurance - and gives you a chance to check yourself out on the real stuff. That's especially an issue if you practice with lighter loads than your defensive stuff.
All told, there are a number of reasons to cycle your ammo, and no real solid reasons I can see not to do it.
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Some years ago I witnessed it first hand. A .22 that had been stored in a box wrapped in an oiled rag and with two boxes of. 22s. .22s are better sealed than any centerfire round yet after less than two years every cartridge was either totally dead or a severe hang fire or a Popper that barely pushed the bullet out the barrel.
Wat? =|
Perhaps you're thinking that because the heel-based loading of .22LR gives it some outside and inside seal against the brass case?
In my actual experience, .22LR, all but the very high quality ammo actually has a teeny bit of play in it when the bullet is wiggled against it's case, or you can even spin them a bit. And the seating depth and bearing surface that comes in contact with the casing is tiny as compared to most any other centerfire round. I'll put the seal of centerfire ammo up against .22LR any day. Granted, the primer is an additional point of failure in centerfire, but the force that's needed to seat them seals it pretty well, and sealant is available if so desired.
And .22LR is the only factory loaded ammo I can disassemble with my bare hands and a bit of wiggling. I suppose a centerfire rifle cartridge with a really high SD and a long exposed ogive in the bullet might get me enough leverage to bend/pull the bullet out of it's case, but I bet it would still take me a long time, and I'd hurt my hands in the process...
And in a box wrapped in an oily rag is not what I'd think of as "carry ammo conditions". I'm thinking nightstand, holster, waistband...
But I still agree with the once a year timetable. Better safe than sorry. It's easy/cheap enough to do. Maybe more often if you're outside all the time. Sweat like a pig, or live on salt water etc.
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To rotate my ammo, I just pull the hammer back halfway, and turn the cylinder =D
About once a year or two I shoot a porcupine or something. Never failed to fire yet. That's about how often .357 ammo gets fired.
Practice is with .22 rimfire.
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Well, in my carry autos the ammo never makes it long, I usually run a mag at the range just to check function, springs, and disposes of the oft-chambered round. The exception is my pocket revolver, going on 5 years for that ammo, if I shoot one I pick another 5 year od one out of the not carried speedloader and replace it. The only thing I'll say about Cor-bon is I don't think it is quite up to premium ammo standards. I took my P3AT on a swimming trip, the spare mag all fired 3 days later because it dried quicker, but the mag in the gun had 4 that would not fire. Don't think they seal their ammo.
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.22s are better sealed than any centerfire round
I don't see this. A .22 is not as sealed as a standard factory centerfire hunting round, much less a centerfire military round (sealant on the primer and bullet)
The same people who recommend rotating out your carry ammo are the same ones that recommend shooting 200+ rounds through your carry gun to ensure reliability....and both groups tend to get advertising money from ammo companies....
I'm going to take the advice of Dr. Gary K. Roberts and thoroughly test my carry ammo plus rotate it.
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A couple of years ago I went to unload my S&W Model 60 and it had crudded up enough after a 3 day road trip on the bike that the cartridges would not eject. Lesson learned. I had to shoot it to get it to function.
When I take my carry guns to the range the carry load gets shot as well as the spare mag. Makes sure my carry set up functions like I expect it to.
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. . . .22s are better sealed than any centerfire round . . .
. . . In my actual experience, .22LR, all but the very high quality ammo actually has a teeny bit of play in it when the bullet is wiggled against it's case, or you can even spin them a bit. . . .
Agree with AJ on .22LR ammo not being sealed as well as centerfire.
But I use up my carry ammo once a year for pretty much the reasons Mike mentioned, as I stated a couple of posts before his. So far no duds, squibs or hangfires, but why take chances with something potentially so critical?
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Bullet setback mentioned by AJ is a big issue. One way to help limit the damage is to always chamber the same round. Strip the top round from the magazine, insert the round that had been chambered and rack it in, then reload the top round into the magazine. Watch your chambered round for setback, but if you consistently do this you won't have setback in your other cartridges.
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I have always heard just the opposite - after eject the chambered round, either chamber what was the top round in the magazine and put the previously chambered round as the current top round, or remove all the rounds in the magazine and out the previously chambered round at the bottom. (Option #2 requires remembering the order rounds come out of the magazine.)
I agree that your way avoids setback for all the rounds in the magazine, but it pretty much accelerates setback for the chambered round. No thanks.
stay safe.
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I have always heard just the opposite - after eject the chambered round, either chamber what was the top round in the magazine and put the previously chambered round as the current top round, or remove all the rounds in the magazine and out the previously chambered round at the bottom. (Option #2 requires remembering the order rounds come out of the magazine.)
I agree that your way avoids setback for all the rounds in the magazine, but it pretty much accelerates setback for the chambered round. No thanks.
Bullet setback is an issue because of potential for increased pressure and decreased reliability when feeding. You think it is better to have rounds in your magazine that are less likely to feed than accelerate the wear on a single round in the chamber? Since most folks aren't going to put the round at the bottom of the magazine, chances are that if you are going to have a problem with feeding it is going to be your second round (first fed from the magazine) that fails to feed.
Make that first one count, I guess.
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"I don't see this. A .22 is not as sealed as a standard factory centerfire hunting round, much less a centerfire military round (sealant on the primer and bullet)"
.22s also don't have the issue of a primer that is another opening into the case.
And, I would hope that people, if they carry a .22, would carry a higher quality round that one that has a loose bullet, for god's sake. That's a pretty good indication that the words "Remington Golden Bullet" or "Remington Thunderbolt" (both analagous for waste-of-money crap) are printed on the ammo box.
"And the seating depth and bearing surface that comes in contact with the casing is tiny as compared to most any other centerfire round."
Uhm... I think you'll find that if you do some careful measurements of the heel portion of the bullet that the amount of the bullet that actually bears on the case is somewhat less than with a centerfire round, but it's still significant in proportion to the diameter of the case. With a proper crimp, it's MORE than adequate enough to properly seal the cartridge.
And in a box wrapped in an oily rag is not what I'd think of as "carry ammo conditions". I'm thinking nightstand, holster, waistband..."
All the while in constant contact with a condition know to contribute to degradation of ammunition. Can you look at a gun and immediately infer that "Well, there's 2.7 micrograms of oil lubricating the gun. Based on the pi square value of the ratio of primer and bullet openings in the case, the average ambient temperature and humidity, the average carry time/holster time/nightstand time, I can conclusively prove that the ammo will be good for 927.723 days, after which it will suffer the increasing liklihood of failure."
The simple fact is, YOU DON'T KNOW exactly what, when, and how your carry ammunition could be compromised.
Lastly, is ANYONE carrying military ball ammo in their carry guns? ANYONE? If so, WHY? Why carry a non-expanding bullet when there are dozens of high-quality expanding bullet commercial choices (which generally do not have primer or bullet sealants) available?
If you're not carrying military ball ammo in your gun, then it's NOT a point of discussion that needs to be brought up as it is completely irrelevant to the discussion of CARRY ammo.
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. . . the words "Remington Golden Bullet" or "Remington Thunderbolt" (both analagous for waste-of-money crap) are printed on the ammo box . . .
Just as an FYI . . . in the user's manual for their M&P 15-22, Smith & Wesson specifically recommends against using these ammo types; this is the first time I've seen a manufacturer specifically recommend against using certain common ammo by name.
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Two points about rotating carry ammo. My father has a friend, a retired small town police chief, who carried a Colt Python (beautiful) as his duty gun. He swore that, based on personal experience, bullet lube will melt from heat, especially on a hot summer sunny day, and can contaminate the powder resulting in a squib shot or no shot at all. He made a habit out of changing ammo at least weekely in the summer. Of course, he only needed to swap out 18 rounds, so it wasn't as big a deal as it is now with the high-cap autos.
Second, my concern about the chambered round is less about the possibility of round set-back, and more about the rim getting chewed up too much. I recall reading about this back in my younger shooting days pre-internet when I read the gun magazines. And, I've noticed a roughness to the rim on some rounds I've chambered/ejected many times. It may not be a big concern, but I am worried if a burr develops that keeps the round from properly engaging the extractor, or getting humg up because of the burr.
Personally, I try to swap out the chambered round about once a month, but leave the magazines full until shooting time. Even then, I've often loaded and unloaded carry ammo a few times over a year or two. With the price of carry ammo, and my shooting budget getting hit by gas prices and other expenses, it may end up the same or even longer...
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"this is the first time I've seen a manufacturer specifically recommend against using certain common ammo by name."
I've never seen that either, but I'm honestly not surprised.
It's a pretty sad state of affairs when .22 ammo made in the Philippines and Mexico is higher quality than stuff made by (or for) Remington.
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FWIW, I had a Wolf 7.62*39 fail to fire after being chambered and cleared perhaps dozens of times.
Perhaps just coincidence, but it bothered me because that is my home defense rifle.
Never had any problems with centerfire revolver rounds.
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The simple fact is, YOU DON'T KNOW exactly what, when, and how your carry ammunition could be compromised.
QFT....and since we don't know, maybe we all should do like Wild Bill Hickock & shoot up our carry ammo from the back porch every morning....I'm sure Mike will cover our ammo costs.... ;)
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I'll be shooting through a mag of my carry ammo the next time I go to the range. Can't hurt.
I hope y'all had a good time bickering back and forth. If you'd been my two sons, I'd have made you hold hands and say nice things to each other. Be glad you aren't my offspring.
That said, this thread was NO WHERE NEAR as much fun as the light fixture thread. I think y'all are losing your touch.
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You should probably have someone else fire that magazine for you. Bribe them with beverage.
That better?
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Second, my concern about the chambered round is less about the possibility of round set-back, and more about the rim getting chewed up too much. I recall reading about this back in my younger shooting days pre-internet when I read the gun magazines. And, I've noticed a roughness to the rim on some rounds I've chambered/ejected many times. It may not be a big concern, but I am worried if a burr develops that keeps the round from properly engaging the extractor, or getting humg up because of the burr.
As someone who reloads .45ACP cases over and over and over and over until I lose them, I have trouble seeing this as any significant issue. That's not to say that a rim couldn't theoretically get messed up enough to cause problems (I've seen that happen to rifle cases that get stuck in chambers and require a little extra persuasion to eject, for instance), just that it is one of the less likely failure points for a cartridge in anything resembling normal circumstances.
On the other hand, I've personally had premium defensive ammunition be set back through repeated re-chamberings enough to interfere with feeding and likely increase pressures beyond what is safe.
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Agreed. I've got some .45 ACP cases that I've reloaded at least 35-40 times. The headstamp has been ironed out of existence and the rim looks like it was chewed on by a dog, but that is essentially cosmetic and has had no effect at all on extraction or ejection.
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I change out ammo depending on season. Penetration rounds for winter, HPs for summer, and save the older rounds for practice.