Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: zahc on July 15, 2012, 12:23:48 AM
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So I bought an AR-15. As a city dweller I have no real use for it, but I figured I better buy one before the pre-election hysteria winds up any further, plus I'm having a kid and I figure I need to buy him one in case they are illegal by the time he turns 18.
I bought a S&W M&P pretty much without doing my research. Now I need to stock up on mags and at least 1k rounds of ammo. Where's a good place to get a case of ammo? Cabelas has sales every now and then but prices seem to be over .40 a round. Is this really how much .223 costs nowadays?
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My cost on Fiocchi is about 31 to 35 cents a round, so 40 cents sounds about right. It's not 150 for a case of 1000 anymore.
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Here's $.32/round. (not counting shipping of course)
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/1000-rds-pmc-556x45-55-gr-fmj-ammo.aspx?a=981781
More out there, look up a search on Ammoengine, sniff around Weidners too.
All in all, you did well, the M&P is pretty well regarded. What S&W didn't make on it, they sourced from other decent names in the AR game.
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For stocking up on mags, my Brownells have never let me down. And they run sales on paks of them all the time.
jim
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Now go register on ARFCOM so you too can become an AR-15 expert.
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Aren't those terrorist rifles?
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Now I need to stock up on mags
http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/MA-02DSGB10A.aspx (http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/MA-02DSGB10A.aspx)
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http://www.natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?contentId=ammoGroup&ammoGroup=1&searchBy=size&ammoSize=205&category=3 (http://www.natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?contentId=ammoGroup&ammoGroup=1&searchBy=size&ammoSize=205&category=3)
I have an M&P 15 as well and I love.
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So I bought an AR-15. As a city dweller I have no real use for it, but I figured I better buy one before the pre-election hysteria winds up any further, plus I'm having a kid and I figure I need to buy him one in case they are illegal by the time he turns 18.
I've always been confused by this practice. I mean, if you just want one, cool, no other reason needed; but to buy one just because libs hate them or because they might be made illegal one day doesn't make much financial sense to me (if they're illegal, you won't be shooting yours anymore). I think a fat donation to the NRA or the state-level org of your choice would be a better use of the money (not to mention training, ammo for guns you have, etc).
Don't get me wrong, I had one myself. I built it as soon as the AWB ended because I could, because 223 was cheap, and because I wanted to try the platform out. I had specific design goals in mind (had to be light and compact, no mall-ninja attachments). Once ammo got expensive and once I realized I didn't really care for it all that much, I flipped it for a very nice profit at the height of the Obama-gun-ban-scare (nothing like selling a 4yo and well used gun for 2x what it cost to build).
As for mags, Jim is correct about Brownells. Good mags and good prices for their house-brand ones. Get a C&R, send it to them, and get further discounts (you could recoup your C&R fee in the savings on mags alone).
Chris
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but to buy one just because libs hate them...
That's actually pretty good and very American reason, IMO. Any time some faction seeks to limit or ban something, all freedom-loving people should do their best to quash the movement, and that may include acquiring or popularizing the things to be banned, whether it be books, guns, encryption, light bulbs or whatever. It's a long and glorious tradition.
...or because they might be made illegal one day doesn't make much financial sense to me
The general trend of American gun control is to make things illegal but grandfather in existing examples. See pretty much any gun restriction at the federal level--'86, AWB, etc.. So when this happens, existing examples go up in value. Coupled with the general principle that our currency is inflating and so tangible and useful items will hold their value in the future, I think guns are a pretty good purchase right now, or any time.
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zahc: The Russian steel cased Tula ammo isn't pretty but it shoots fine. Gander Mountain in our area was selling cases of 500 rounds for .28/round. And they don't sell ANYTHING for less than $10/box of 20 (.50/round).
mtnbkr: One reason to buy now is the general increase in gun prices. Example, Beretta Storm carbines when they first came out were priced right around $500. A few years later you couldn't hardly find them for less than $800. That's a 60% increase in a pretty short period of time.
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Congrats. Everyone should have at least one.
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Robert has a S&W M&P15-22 with some Magpul goodies on it.
Fun, reliable gun. Eats all the different bulk (Fed/Rem/Win) .22LR we feed it.
I had a Rock River AR. I was looking at get a lighter barrel when I had to sell everything.
Since I carried an M-16 in the Army, it's like old home week when I pick one up. I miss mine.
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I'm anxiously awaiting my York Arms lower to arrive so that I can build mine.
It's custom engraved so I have to wait a while - they do them in batches.
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Another ammo source is Georgia Arms.
You might want to pick up some Magpul mags. Never tried one, but AR chatter is that the are better than sliced bread.
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Also LuckyGunner.com has some deals from time to time.
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That's actually pretty good and very American reason, IMO. Any time some faction seeks to limit or ban something, all freedom-loving people should do their best to quash the movement, and that may include acquiring or popularizing the things to be banned, whether it be books, guns, encryption, light bulbs or whatever. It's a long and glorious tradition.
Buying stuff doesn't quash anything.
The general trend of American gun control is to make things illegal but grandfather in existing examples. See pretty much any gun restriction at the federal level--'86, AWB, etc..
I won't count on any grandfathering next time around. I think they learned how well that worked with the AWB.
mtnbkr: One reason to buy now is the general increase in gun prices. Example, Beretta Storm carbines when they first came out were priced right around $500. A few years later you couldn't hardly find them for less than $800. That's a 60% increase in a pretty short period of time.
No doubt. Just questioning the idea of buying one for reasons that don't include "I really like the gun and want to own one".
Chris
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Another ammo source is Georgia Arms.
personally, I wouldn't have anything to do with Georgia Arms. Their stuff has been known to have issues. Stay the hell away from el cheapo ammo like USA Ammo and such, too. PMC is what I shoot a lot of, steel case Wolf works OK too. Occasionally we still get surplus pop up.
Keep the bolt wet with oil.
You might want to pick up some Magpul mags. Never tried one, but AR chatter is that the are better than sliced bread.
This. PMAGs are the way to go for durable mags. Vast improvement on the aluminum mags. Don't waste money on C Products or steel magazines of the various makes. Don't waste money on Thermolds.
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So I bought an AR-15. As a city dweller I have no real use for it, but I figured I better buy one before the pre-election hysteria winds up any further, plus I'm having a kid and I figure I need to buy him one in case they are illegal by the time he turns 18.
I bought a S&W M&P pretty much without doing my research. Now I need to stock up on mags and at least 1k rounds of ammo. Where's a good place to get a case of ammo? Cabelas has sales every now and then but prices seem to be over .40 a round. Is this really how much .223 costs nowadays?
Other than 'yotes, or dispatching other nuisance animals that require rapid shots at fleeting targets, I'd think a "city dweller" has much higher odds of "needing" an AR or similar rifle... [tinfoil]
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It's kind of funny, because at the time I bought the gun, I almost bought a case of ammo at the same time, but I wasn't sure about the price, so I bought a token box of ammo just so the gun wasn't totally useless until I could order some ammo. But that 20-round box disappeared into that 30-round mag awfully quick.
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That was my thought also when I read "city dweller"...perfect for that. It's not you can plink with a .22 or 12 gauge in the city either.
When did Georgia Arms go south? We used to buy cases and cases from there. Other than a few dented bulk rounds it worked great.
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It's kind of funny, because at the time I bought the gun, I almost bought a case of ammo at the same time, but I wasn't sure about the price, so I bought a token box of ammo just so the gun wasn't totally useless until I could order some ammo. But that 20-round box disappeared into that 30-round mag awfully quick.
Funny how that works. ;)
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http://gun-deals.com/ammo
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Just questioning the idea of buying one for reasons that don't include "I really like the gun and want to own one".
Chris
I take that to be a given anytime one of us purchases a new gun and it goes without saying.
None of us had any real NEED for those flare guns we all rushed out to order. I don't really NEED that pink shotgun. Ben doesn't NEED 20 different 1911s. I have a whole bunch of things on my wishlist that I want but would have a hard time justifying if I had to give a reason for them.
I also think ARs are like little black dresses. Everybody ought to have at least one. They go with everything.
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Everybody ought to have at least one.
or three.
I don't think AR-15s or 'assault weapons' bans are going to go anywhere. AR-15s have been one of the if not the top selling rifle type over the last 10 years.
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Here's $.32/round. (not counting shipping of course)
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/1000-rds-pmc-556x45-55-gr-fmj-ammo.aspx?a=981781
More out there, look up a search on Ammoengine, sniff around Weidners too.
All in all, you did well, the M&P is pretty well regarded. What S&W didn't make on it, they sourced from other decent names in the AR game.
If you add this http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/couponcentral.aspx to your ammo purchase you can take $10 off that purchase.
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I take that to be a given anytime one of us purchases a new gun and it goes without saying.
None of us had any real NEED for those flare guns we all rushed out to order. I don't really NEED that pink shotgun. Ben doesn't NEED 20 different 1911s. I have a whole bunch of things on my wishlist that I want but would have a hard time justifying if I had to give a reason for them.
I also think ARs are like little black dresses. Everybody ought to have at least one. They go with everything.
Actually, he was saying that you should buy guns you LIKE and WANT. But then, any critique of Chris I fully support, since he is a stinky-head and totally deserves it.
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Buying stuff doesn't quash anything.
I won't count on any grandfathering next time around. I think they learned how well that worked with the AWB.
Grandfathering has been a loop-hole in all manner of regulation, and has already been used for anti-AR legislation. We can't count on grandfathering, but buying an AR isn't "counting on grandfathering," it's taking a precaution that has proven to be useful in the past.
I don't own any ARs (don't really like them), but when more people have a thing, that thing becomes politically and practically more difficult to prohibit, so zahc is right.
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Actually, he was saying that you should buy guns you LIKE and WANT.
Exactly. The idea that you should buy something you have no interest in "just because" is foolish IMO given the amount of money we're talking about.
But then, any critique of Chris I fully support, since he is a stinky-head and totally deserves it.
This too.
Chris
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The idea that you should buy something you have no interest in "just because" is foolish IMO given the amount of money we're talking about.
It is pre-hyperinflated money- might as well buy something valuable with it while you still can. ;)
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I don't own any ARs (don't really like them)
Why do you hate America?
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www.ammunitiontogo.com has usually done okay for me on prices. They also go to all the gun shows down here.
I have seen a lot of Federal 223 available for sale at sporting goods stores and gun stores in bulk. I've had good luck with Federal 223 and it was generally competitive. I would avoid steel case ammo unless you just want ammo for blasting. If you shoot it, take care to clean the chamber very well. A gun store in Houston sells 68 Gr Black Hills match ammo that is fairly accurate in my match barreled AR.
I would second another post on Brownells aluminum mags. The few I have work well and seem very well built. I have a number of Magpul P-Mags and have never had any issues with them. They are slick and tough and feed well. If you get a combination of those two, I think you will be well served.
That said, there are lots of USGI mags out there. I am sure others have their favorites. I would avoid any suppliers that are not USGI spec or "cheap" mags. Most of the problems I had with my first AR were due to cheap mags and cheap ammo.
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It is pre-hyperinflated money- might as well buy something valuable with it while you still can. ;)
Buy something they can't take away: Training.
Or stock up on ammo for guns you currently own.
Or take up reloading and casting so you can feed your guns.
This is all moot if you *want* the gun in question, but I see time after time people claiming they *must* buy X gun because the libs don't like it or might try to ban it. Seems like folks are getting led around by the nose. Wouldn't it be funny if gun ban rumors were started by the gun industry. ;)
Chris
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This is all moot if you *want* the gun in question, but I see time after time people claiming they *must* buy X gun because the libs don't like it or might try to ban it. Seems like folks are getting led around by the nose. Wouldn't it be funny if gun ban rumors were started by the gun industry. ;)
Chris
I just use bans to rationalize buying the guns I want. :laugh:
Though on a serious note, there can be valid reasons for buying "before the ban". For instance, try and buy a semi-auto pistol in CA that doesn't have a magazine disconnect. I still bought 1911s after that ban went into effect, but I bought two of mine without the disconnect a few months before the ban, because they'd be grandfathered in.
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Why do you hate America?
Real Americans use rifles in caliber. 30 or above. :P Actually, I'd like to throw one together, just for the joy of gun-bubba-ing.
And Chris,
Grandfathering has been a loop-hole in all manner of regulation, and has already been used for anti-AR legislation. We can't count on grandfathering, but buying an AR isn't "counting on grandfathering," it's taking a precaution that has proven to be useful in the past.
I don't own any ARs (don't really like them), but when more people have a thing, that thing becomes politically and practically more difficult to prohibit, so zahc is right.
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Real Americans use rifles in caliber. 30 or above. Actually, I'd like to throw one together, just for the joy of gun-bubba-ing.
So build one in 7.62x39 :P
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I actually want an AR-10 now, not for 308, but for .243.
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I also think ARs are like little black dresses. Everybody ought to have at least one. They go with everything.
Quotable. Stolen for possible signature line use.
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Real Americans use rifles in caliber. 30 or above.
Like my WASR.
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Now that you have a lower, you can put any number of larger caliber uppers on it, including giant Poodle calibers, without going though a another background check. I think that is one of the more appealing features of the platform.
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I actually want an AR-10 now, not for 308, but for .243.
Make mine .260Rem.
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Now that you have a lower, you can put any number of larger caliber uppers on it, including giant Poodle calibers, without going though a another background check.
A match/varmint upper really appeals to me, but I would have to do something about the trigger on this thing first.
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I keep telling myself I want a 6.8 or 6.5 upper for my AR-15.
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I keep telling myself I want a 6.8 or 6.5 upper for my AR-15.
Let go of 6.5, but I occasionally try to rationalize 6.8.
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A match/varmint upper really appeals to me, but I would have to do something about the trigger on this thing first.
A stock basic AR trigger from even Colt is nothing to write home about.
The Tapco G2 trigger group on some of my AK's feels like it's a match trigger in comparison to the stock Colt. Except mine has the stupid steel block they put in for fear of people sticking DIAS'es in there. Only $50 at ADCO to get it milled out of my lower, but still... :P
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People used to rave about Timney replacement triggers. Never tried one...always found other ways to spend $200...but if I wanted to add a precision upper, that might be the way to go .
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People used to rave about Timney replacement triggers. Never tried one...always found other ways to spend $200...but if I wanted to add a precision upper, that might be the way to go .
The two I have are really good, but there are others that get good reviews also. Most of the better ones are at least $200, but a clean, crisp 3 lb break is really nice.
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Let go of 6.5, but I occasionally try to rationalize 6.8.
I bought a 6.8 upper. I ended up getting stripped lower and putting a lower together for it. Shoots really well, but I have sort of set it aside until I start doing some reloading.
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I bought a 6.8 upper. I ended up getting stripped lower and putting a lower together for it. Shoots really well, but I have sort of set it aside until I start doing some reloading.
How is yours configured? Bbl length, etc.? I'm thinking about an 18" SPRish setup.
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http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=14_24&products_id=318
My 6.8 is this. I thought it was an 18" barrel, but this says 20". I was getting 1.5" groups with the Hornady ammo with a Timney trigger in the lower. Fun to shoot, but at around $1 or so a round, I needed to hold off until I could reload some. I think bought somewhere around 500 rounds total.
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A match/varmint upper really appeals to me, but I would have to do something about the trigger on this thing first.
A RRA match trigger is about $120, well worth it IMHO. Its a 2-stage trigger meant for CMP/NRA games but its still a vast improvement over a stock trigger. Only complaint is that the pins are slightly oversized for a tight fit, so its not a completely 'drop in ' part.
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My 6.8 is this. I thought it was an 18" barrel, but this says 20". I was getting 1.5" groups with the Hornady ammo with a Timney trigger in the lower.
1.5" as terrible where I come from (beanfield rifles), unless it's at 300 yards. Is this really considered 'good' in AR-land? If so I may set aside my plans of building a match/varmint AR, figure this one is a good plinker, and figure on getting a bolt gun later.
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1.5" as terrible where I come from (beanfield rifles), unless it's at 300 yards. Is this really considered 'good' in AR-land? If so I may set aside my plans of building a match/varmint AR, figure this one is a good plinker, and figure on getting a bolt gun later.
No. I've got 3 AR's. Both my 6.8's are just barely sub MOA, one has a 16" A1 profile barrel and a 1-3x scope, the other has a 16" M4 profile with open sights. I've been meaning to try a higher power scope to see what they can actually do, just never got around to it. I also have a 20" 5.56 varmint setup with a Vortex 6-24 that just about every ammo I've tried has been 1/2 MOA.
Also, the Hornady 110gr Vmax in 6.8 is finicky, shoots very well out of some guns, but horrible out of most.
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I have a LaRue OBR 5.56 that shoots an honest 1 inch at 100 yards. Their 7.62 OBR reportedly does better than that.
As for AR triggers, I've used the stock trigger, improved stock triggers, Wilson, and Geissele. The stock trigges work, but can be easily bettered. I used to like the Wilson TTU, but after three different triggers I no longer trust them 100%. I do still run one in my SBR since it has been reliable since Wilson replaced it. I just recently installed the Geissele (guys lee) in my middy. It looks promising and has been shown to be reliable by people I trust.
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I guess there's no getting around the fact that the rounds have to be crimped. Also, I suppose they have to be sized to a standard length to feed reliably.
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I guess there's no getting around the fact that the rounds have to be crimped. Also, I suppose they have to be sized to a standard length to feed reliably.
Well, yeah.
Crimp is a bit more important in a semi-auto than a bolt gun, though. That is true for OAL, too. For the AR, if the OAL fits in the mag, it should feed reliably. Some people load longer, heavier bullets, but those have to be single-loaded into the rifle.
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I've got an RRA 5.56 match upper. The best I've done with that is 0.5" at 100 yards with reloads. Commercial ammo (even match) does 1" or maybe 3/4" at best. I figured getting 1.5" with the normal Hornady and SSA 6.8 HPBT ammo was doing just fine. I've only put a couple hundred rounds through the upper so far. I was getting 1.5" groups the first time out. When I finally get around to start reloading, I expect to improve on that.
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I guess there's no getting around the fact that the rounds have to be crimped. Also, I suppose they have to be sized to a standard length to feed reliably.
I don't crimp, and haven't seen any adverse effect to not crimping so long as you are using good reloading practices, are getting good neck tension, and aren't shooting full auto.
For my DCM rifle, I use stainless mags which allow me to seat my bullets considerably further out than with a standard GI mag.
I showed up to a match one morning with a niggling feeling that I had forgotten something. I did in fact forget my magazines.
Several guys would lend me a spare mag or two, but my loads wouldn't fit in them.
I attempted to do some emergency bullet seating by placing a round nose down on the concrete and putting weight on it. I soon found this to be futile- putting as much of my 260 lbs on the little rounds as I could, I couldn't get any of the bullets to even budge.
For reloading for the AR-15, I'd worry a lot more about cartridge headspace in resizing than anything else. In a typical NATO chamber, cases stretching .006-.007" isn't outside the norm.
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My 1980's vintage Colt has a Milazzo-Krieger two-stage trigger and 20" heavy barrel. I get sub-MOA groups with factory ammo. I have everything for reloading .223, but just haven't gotten around to it, but I'm sure I could get it to do better than just sub-MOA.