Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on August 12, 2012, 10:32:26 AM
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Looks like all five of them have diesel engines. Thanks EPA.
http://huckberry.com/blog/posts/124-5-awesome-4wd-s-we-can-t-have-in-america
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I would hate for all the water and air in America to be poisoned and kill all the children because someone screamed that we should get rid of the EPA.
;)
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I would hate for all the water and air in America to be poisoned and kill all the children because someone screamed that we should get rid of the EPA.
;)
Yeah, small efficient diesels will be the death of us all ;/
:P
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Someone needs to figure out a loophole, where you could buy the vehicle sans motor, and install the deisel at a third party. There is no law in Ohio preventing me from dropping a deisel motor in my Wrangler.
Oddly, they've been made in ohio for decades, and we can't buy them. Political idiocy at it's best.
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I fear you'd run afoul of the federal emissions laws. Basicly it's illegal to bypass or disable any emissions equipment your car came from the factory with. (Theres some exceptions for older cars) Also in states with inspections you'd still have to meet those standards. Which is the problem with euro deisels in the first place.
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I fear you'd run afoul of the federal emissions laws. Basicly it's illegal to bypass or disable any emissions equipment your car came from the factory with. (Theres some exceptions for older cars) Also in states with inspections you'd still have to meet those standards. Which is the problem with euro deisels in the first place.
Unless its a kitcar...like a noble. You could buy an SUV "kit" and a motor, and then assemble. You would then have to meet emissions standards....which euro diesels do.
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I would love to have a Hilux. Of course, I would be compelled to mount an old Soviet 23 mm cannon in the back and pretend I was in Mogadishu. Tailgate this, numbnuts!
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Yeah, small efficient diesels will be the death of us all, but worse, an annoyance to Government Motors and the US auto industry.
:P
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Which is the problem with euro deisels in the first place.
The Euro manufacturers ( I think Mercedes in particular) have been investing a lot more in "clean diesel" tech. My problem with it is that I really don't know that there is much net reduction (if any) in pollution (and that's real pollution, not stuff like CO2 being a "health hazard").
I have a "clean diesel" 2008 F250 with the diesel particulate filter. The 2007 F250s get on average 5MPG more than I do. Guys in states where it's allowed have removed the diesel particulate filter from their 2008s and have recovered their fuel mileage. Since everyone has to use the ultra low sulfur diesel now, all I'm doing is using more fuel to go the same distance as an older model diesel with only a very slight reduction in pollutants. The particulate filter uses fuel to burn particulates into fine ash - when it's working (about every other fill up) I can use the MPG lie-o-meter and watch my MPG steadily drop at a fast rate for the twenty or so minutes that it runs.
May European countries, Germany for instance, have a pretty Green culture, which is why they have always been using small diesels in small cars. Burning 20 gallons of diesel at 50MPG seems to me to be a better way to reduce pollution than burning 20 gallons of gasoline at 20MPG.
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. . . Guys in states where it's allowed have removed the diesel particulate filter from their 2008s and have recovered their fuel mileage.
Seems like it's calling for a quick-connect coupling; remove filter & improve fuel economy. When it's time for the inspection, put filter back on. Pass test, go home, remove filter. Pretty straightforward.
I knew guys who used to do that with their catalytic converters in the mid to late '70s.
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My understanding was that EU emissions aren't so much looser as they measure different thing. This, combined with American's aversion to non truck deisels has made it uneconomical to get good mpg euro deisels in this market. Also i understamd that US fuel is formulated differently which effects mpg here. But i am not a chemist.
Kit trucks would be an option but my experiance with kit vehicles are that they take more tinkering and maintaince then you would want for a daily driver.
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Seems like it's calling for a quick-connect coupling; remove filter & improve fuel economy. When it's time for the inspection, put filter back on. Pass test, go home, remove filter. Pretty straightforward.
I knew guys who used to do that with their catalytic converters in the mid to late '70s.
Actually a bit more than that, as it's all computer controlled. There's apparently after market chips programmed for running sans DPF, so you'd have to reprogram the engine each time as well.
Though freakin' CA started smog checks for diesels a couple of years back, and mine got called in for it last year. I paid twice as much for it as a smog check for my gasoline vehicle, and it was literally a five minute visual inspection. They didn't hook a single sensor up to measure exhaust like they do with gasoline vehicles. Which would mean I could remove my DPF and no one would be the wiser - maybe. This isn't the state to take the chance in though - I'd likely have to take a loan out to pay the fine if I were caught.
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Burning 20 gallons of diesel at 50MPG seems to me to be a better way to reduce pollution than burning 20 gallons of gasoline at 20MPG.
This :facepalm:
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last yr I read a thread on calguns that described buying a new hilux that was chopped in half, you take the engine and drop it into your toyota pu and you got yourself a small diesel pu truck.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=352471&highlight=hilux
wow! 2010, how come I remember this but not the lyrics Hotel California?
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Burning 20 gallons of diesel at 50MPG seems to me to be a better way to reduce pollution than burning 20 gallons of gasoline at 20MPG.
Folks at the EPA aren't very good at math, or science... or anything else.
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Sometimes it's enough to make a fellow wonder if it is less about protecting the environment and more about controlling the population...
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Sometimes it's enough to make a fellow wonder if it is less about protecting the environment and more about controlling the population...
Nah, it couldn't be. They're from the government, they're here to help.
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Just about every episode of "Top Gear" (the British verison, not that American POS), they test a small diesel coupe of some type or another that's about the size fo a Camry. And they all get 40-50mpg. And I sit and wonder why we can't have nice things....
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The diesel emissions regs in the EU and here will be near enough to the same by 2013 that any diesel meeting Euro 6 standards should be able to meet the 2010 US standards. At least for the heavy duty trucks. Not sure if the standards are the same for pas-cars.
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I'd be all over a 30 mpg small pickup with a 2.5-3L turbo diesel, but not the auto-trans bloated poshmobiles with every option they seem to produce these days. I want one with 3 pedals, a manual transfer case, and an interior I can wash out with a hose.
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I'd be all over a 30 mpg small pickup with a 2.5-3L turbo diesel, but not the auto-trans bloated poshmobiles with every option they seem to produce these days. I want one with 3 pedals, a manual transfer case, and an interior I can wash out with a hose.
Yeah, and not spending $40-60K for something to go bang around the bush ;/
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I'd be all over a 30 mpg small pickup with a 2.5-3L turbo diesel, but not the auto-trans bloated poshmobiles with every option they seem to produce these days. I want one with 3 pedals, a manual transfer case, and an interior I can wash out with a hose.
Sounds good, unfortunatly the market drives car design. And the VAST majority of byers want leather, a/c, good stereo and ride comfort. So the market for the pickup you describe is pretty small.
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Sounds good, unfortunatly the market drives car design. And the VAST majority of byers want leather, a/c, good stereo and ride comfort. So the market for the pickup you describe is pretty small.
Unfortunately, most of the people who buy 4wds these days are city idiots ;/
So the rest of us have to try to keep some 30-40 year old pickup running to use to get some work done.
Who the hell is going to take a $50K pickup out into the woods to cut a $100 worth of firewood ???
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I have a 2001 Silverado with the small V8. I don't think it has ever gotten the 20 MPG it was EPA rated (it might have the last time I drove to Wisconsin, I didn't check it.) I do get 19 if I drive it gently.
I'd kind of like to do a small diesel engine swap (like a 86-100hp Perkins turbodiesel), but I know I don't drive it enough to save enough to pay for it. Still...
Is it even possible to swap the engine in a vehicle later than about 1995? I'm not sure how far the computer's tentacles extend. Dashboard gauges? Transmission? Brakes? A/C?
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Probably not :(
I knew a guy that had a GM V-6 diesel in a 1978 F-250 =D
It was a low-rider in the front ;)
It sounded like a real truck and looked like a small forest fire when he started it =D
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Probably not :(
I knew a guy that had a GM V-6 diesel in a 1978 F-250 =D
It was a low-rider in the front ;)
It sounded like a real truck and looked like a small forest fire when he started it =D
Conversely -- several years ago my wife and I visited Macchu Picchu in Peru. Our route of travel took us from the north of Chile into the south of Peru en route. To cross the border, we left our vehicle in a car park in Arica (Chile) and took a car operated by a border crossing "expeditor" to Tacna (Peru), from where we proceeded by bus.
The interesting part of this (in the current context) is that the expeditor's car was a Ford Crown Victoria -- and it was a three-on-the-tree and very visibly and audibly a diesel. I asked the expeditor how that came to be, and she said the Crown Vics are imported from the U.S. and then locally converted using Nissan diesel engines and transmissions.
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The EPA hates diesels because they make stuff like hybrids, ethanol, etc look extremely stupid.
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Unfortunately, most of the people who buy 4wds these days are city idiots ;/
Or, as my brother calls them, citiots.
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The EPA hates diesels because they make stuff like hybrids, ethanol, etc look extremely stupid.
Only because they are.
I'd love me a 1/2 ton PU with a small v8 or decent v6 diesel, manual tranny, 4 doors, rubber floor, vinyl seats.
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At least one platform on the list isn't importable because of it's lack of srs. Diesel power has nothing to do with it.
Outrage at the EPA needs to be redirected towards the National Transportation Safety regulators. The same jackbooted thugs who have saddled us with heinous liabilities such as seat belts, safety glass, and the cumbersome 5 mph bumper.
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I'd love me a 1/2 ton PU with a small v8 or decent v6 diesel, manual tranny, 4 doors, rubber floor, vinyl seats.
4 or 5 cylinders is plenty for a 1/2 ton. Maybe even 3, but that's pushing it.
I like my automatic transmission (I never thought I'd say that 25 years ago) but other than that, yeah a truck should be hose-out-able and have window cranks.
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4 or 5 cylinders is plenty for a 1/2 ton. Maybe even 3, but that's pushing it.
I like my automatic transmission (I never thought I'd say that 25 years ago) but other than that, yeah a truck should be hose-out-able and have window cranks.
Something about the power of a Chevy 292 Six is plenty for a pickup, unless you are pulling humongous trailers.
A diesel would have even more torque =)
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I seldom get my truck over 2100 RPM's, even when accelerating onto the freeway, which is why I think a little industrial or ag diesel engine would be perfect and I wouldn't have to change the transmission or the rearend. Plus it would have that wonderful diesel smoke and smell :D
It probably makes a better fantasy than a reality, but if I had a early 90's model with no rust and a bad engine I might consider it.
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I seldom get my truck over 2100 RPM's, even when accelerating onto the freeway, which is why I think a little industrial or ag diesel engine would be perfect and I wouldn't have to change the transmission or the rearend. Plus it would have that wonderful diesel smoke and smell :D
It probably makes a better fantasy than a reality, but if I had a early 90's model with no rust and a bad engine I might consider it.
If I wasn't so old and tired of wrenching, my 1976 C-20 would be perfect for a small diesel :cool:
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I used to have a 1976 C-20. I loved that truck. finally sold it in 2000 cuz the body was almost rusted off of it, and I got tired of all the nagging. It still ran great; it was a good wood hauler with those big 16.5" wheels and load range E tires. It wasn't much fun to drive in the MN winter with no floorboards...
Whenever I was hauling something heavy (like dirt) I would just keep adding more until the bed just sat down on the axles -- then I'd add a couple of hundred more pounds to keep it from bouncing.
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it was a good wood hauler with those big 16.5" wheels and load range E tires
First thing I did was trade those off for 16" wheels and radials.
Too bad I didn't get 16" splits like my 1973 K-20, so I could fix flats out here in the dirt.
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I road about Kakadu AU in a Nissan patrol
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Just about every episode of "Top Gear" (the British verison, not that American POS), they test a small diesel coupe of some type or another that's about the size fo a Camry. And they all get 40-50mpg. And I sit and wonder why we can't have nice things....
FYI.
They are probably giving the mpg in Imperial Gallons. The Imperial Gallon is approximately 20% larger than the US gallon.
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I spotted two Hiluxes when I was walking home from work today.
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I would love to get my hands on a 70 series land cruiser. Folks have figured out ways to get them into the states but it is super expensive to do.
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I would love to have a Hilux. Of course, I would be compelled to mount an old Soviet 23 mm cannon in the back and pretend I was in Mogadishu. Tailgate this, numbnuts!
+1
Ever since seeing the Top Gear episode about them I have wanted one ever since. Last deployment I noticed them all over the place when we pulled into ports. I've been thinking about getting a Tacoma but am not sure what year to get yet since I need to do more research on them to find out which one is as rugged as them since they have been getting different over the years.
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+1
Ever since seeing the Top Gear episode about them I have wanted one ever since. Last deployment I noticed them all over the place when we pulled into ports. I've been thinking about getting a Tacoma but am not sure what year to get yet since I need to do more research on them to find out which one is as rugged as them since they have been getting different over the years.
You want the old '80s tacomas then. Beware the do have some rust issues, particularly the bed (easily solved...replace with a flatbed)
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Fuel efficiency and harmful emissions are two different things.
The most commonly regulated harmful emissions are:
NOx
CO
HC
PM
These emissions are usually reported in units of brake specific value --> g/kw.hr or lb/hp.hr. This is the mass flow of emissions divided by the work the engine does.
For example, if the engine produces 100lbs/hr of PM emissions while providing 333hp, then the emission at that mode is 0.3lb/hphr.
This emission value is independent of the fuel consumed.
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There are several different emissions control technologies developed over the past 20yrs.
First is cleaner combustion through improved piston design and advanced fuel systems. Old mechanical pump/line direct fuel injection is replaced by HEUI, MEUI, and Common Rail electronically controlled direct injection. These advanced injections systems allow more flexibility for cold start, emissions reduction, high injection pressures, and more efficient combustion. The tradeoff is more complexity and very tight tolerances on a very high pressure system (150-300MPa = 21,700PSI - 43,500PSI). Good clean fuel, and regular high quality fuel filter changes are a must.
Additional improvement is found in the turbo design and charge air cooling design. Higher boost and lower charge air temps are an important building block for reduced emissions. Not only have turbos gotten significantly more efficient and better matched to engines, but some manufacturers have added complex controls like Variable Geometry Turbines (VGT) and Variable Nozzle Turbine (VNT).
More recently, Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) has been added. This affects the chemistry of combustion and also reduces emissions dramatically, with improvement to fuel economy. The downside is increased soot load in the engine oil. Improved fuel refinement and better oils help mitigate this tradeoff. Low Sulfur and Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) is important to help an EGR engine last. The sulfur in diesel fuel can burn creating SO2, which turns into sulfuric acid in the presence of water (exhaust). Recirculating sulfuric acid through an engine is not good. Use ULSD to help reduce this harm.
Also recently added are after-treatment systems. This means chemically processing the exhaust coming out of the turbo. In this category are DPF, DOC, SCR and AMOx.
DPF = diesel particulate filter - captures PM in a filter. The PM is oxidized to CO2 either by dosing with additional raw fuel injection into exhaust or heating to high temp with a burner or heating to high temp by a heavy load on the engine.
DOC = diesel oxidation catalyst - continuously reacts the HC to CO2 and H2O. This is a precious metal catalyst, much like a 3-way catalyst in a car. DOCs require Low Sulfur fuels to prevent fouling of the catalytic surface.
SCR = selective catalytic reduction - a combination of catalyst and another substance, urea. When heated by the exhaust the urea converts to ammonia and reacts with NOx to reduce it to N2 and H2O on the surface of this catalyst.
AMOx = ammonia oxidation - a catalyst to catch any ammonia slipping by the SCR system and convert down to harmless N2 & H2O.
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Why do cars have simple catalytic converters and diesels have such complex aftertreatment?
1 The chemistry is different. Spark ignition (most cars) run much more fuel to air. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometric_air_ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometric_air_ratio)
This different chemistry of the exhaust affects how catalysts behave. So a gasoline engine can use the great invention of the 3-way catalysts, while diesel exhaust is impervious to such a device.
2 The diesel exhaust emission is different. Diesel fuel is heavier and creates far more PM. This must be handled differently.
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With all these technologies, how much have emissions been reduced?
Going from unregulated in the past, the emissions have gotten tighter by stages or "tiers", as used in the heavy machinery world.
Tier 1, 2, 3, and 4 have each gotten orders of magnitude less harmful emissions.
Tier 1 is the large grey box, Tier 4 Final is the tiny yellowish box.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cat.com%2Fcda%2Ffiles%2F2415060%2F7%2F3DGraph5.gif&hash=4aedd1faec1b529b869456b1e79573aed1dd5008)
This picture is for off-road machinery, but the tech and requirements for on-highway (cars and trucks) is very similar.
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So a gasoline engine can use the great invention of the 3-way catalysts
I don't believe I've ever heard anyone refer to that wonderful POS catalytic converter as "great". Hell, mine was so great I cut it out of the exhaust system...and removed the O2 sensors that went with it.
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Does the EPA unfairly prevent diesels from competing?
From what I have read of the regulation, it doesn't seem so. They hold diesels and gasolines to the same reg. The technology to meet this regulation exists in much of the recent new truck engines and heavy machinery engines.
Why does europe have so many more diesels?
My opinion, I see 2 main reasons...
1 It seems the EU regs has special exemption for diesels, they allow more emissions from diesels than gas.
2 Fuel taxes are very high in most of europe, making any slight improvement in mpg more worthwhile for fuel cost avoidance.
Conversely, since fuel prices (even at $4/gal) are so cheap in the US, the pay back on diesel cost is very poor. Therefore, it has the same market acceptance problem as hybrids (which are also a minuscule part of car market). US diesel makes the most sense for vehicles that drive many miles a year (taxis, transportation, and commercial vehicle). Except for taxis, we mostly see diesels for pickups, commercial vans, and trucks - right where they belong for now.
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The technology to meet this regulation exists in much of the recent new truck engines and heavy machinery engines.
These wonderful new engines are less reliable than the older engines.
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I don't believe I've ever heard anyone refer to that wonderful POS catalytic converter as "great". Hell, mine was so great I cut it out of the exhaust system...and removed the O2 sensors that went with it.
Compared to what diesels have to go through, and what auto had to do before the 3-way; the thing is a freaking miracle invention.
It lasts easily 100k to 150k mi without any maintenance and electronic control.
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These wonderful new engines are less reliable than the older engines.
Yes, they have definitely had their... growing pains. I think the designs are getting better though. One of the problems is that the technology life cycle was so short. Every couple years the engine were redesigned, redeveloped with new tech from the ground up.
TANSTAAFL
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I don't believe I've ever heard anyone refer to that wonderful POS catalytic converter as "great". Hell, mine was so great I cut it out of the exhaust system...and removed the O2 sensors that went with it.
The other issue is heat.
You don't dare drive a gas fueled vehicle with a converter off into a pasture, or even a 2-track with grass growing between the ruts, from about July 1 to October 1 in Montana.
:(
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The other issue is heat.
You don't dare drive a gas fueled vehicle with a converter off into a pasture, or even a 2-track with grass growing between the ruts, from about July 1 to October 1 in Montana.
:(
Same here, which is why I've removed them on anything I might need to drive off into a pasture in.
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Same here, which is why I've removed them on anything I might need to drive off into a pasture in.
Trouble is that we drove our car up to a neighbor's place a few days ago, without realizing that they hadn't bothered to mow their driveway all summer :facepalm:
(they have three pickups, two of which are diesel)
The exhaust is on the driver's side so I just straddled the left hand rut.