Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: kgbsquirrel on August 24, 2012, 10:07:39 AM
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On the nooz (both Fox and CNN) now.
A "worker who was fired yesterday" shoots 5 to 10 people at the Empire State Building. Suspect reported killed by NYPD. Reportedly "shooting indiscriminately at people."
ETA:
"Confirming 10 people were injured."
"Unclear if the shooter was killed by the police or committed suicide."
2nd ETA:
"2 Dead, 8 Injured."
"Suspect killed by Police."
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http://www.myfoxny.com/story/19363141/shooting-outside-empire-state-building (http://www.myfoxny.com/story/19363141/shooting-outside-empire-state-building)
At least 5 victims and the gunman was killed.
NYPD and FBI are investigating. Apparently a dispute between 2 co-workers.
I expect Bloomy to take full advantage of the situation. ;/
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Unpossible.
Guns are illegal and evil in New York City.
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Paralel thread in the politics section. I started that one there cause I figured this would go P pretty quickly.
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Meanwhile, overnight, in another gun-control capitol, Chicago, 19 people were shot in Business As Usual.
America is unraveling. No one should be surprised.
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Meanwhile, overnight, in another gun-control capitol, Chicago, 19 people were shot in Business As Usual.
America is unraveling. No one should be surprised.
But that's not nooz worthy! Only the mass (think of the chillinz!) shootings matter because Business-As-Usual murders don't advance socialist political agendas.
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Observation bias.
300+ million people. There are X% of people shot every year, regardless of population level. If X = 0.01% (way higher than reality but I don't know the real number), then when population is 50 million, it's 5000 people a year. When the population is 300 million, it's 30,000 people.
Now introduce internet, cell phone cameras, rapid response news teams, and news cycles that react to consumer paranoia on particular topics. We hear about EVERY shooting right now. Seriously, who didn't think that at least a dozen people were shot in Chicago just about every night? There's well over 500 murders a year there, on average, and most shootings (well over 80%, isn't it?) don't result in death. There's probably somewhere around 5000 shootings every year just in Chicago.
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Holy schnikey! The POLICE "accidentally" shot several innocent people.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_EMPIRE_STATE_BUILDING_SHOOTING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-24-11-49-15
Police killed the suspect and at least nine others were wounded, some possibly by police gunfire, city officials said.
Um... I'm in favor of some gun control. As in: positive target identification, and knowing your target and what lies behind it.
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I guess the shooter must have taken an overnight trip to Georgia to buy his gun then went back. He certainly didn't buy the gun in NY right?
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Holy schnikey! The POLICE "accidentally" shot several innocent people.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_EMPIRE_STATE_BUILDING_SHOOTING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-24-11-49-15
Um... I'm in favor of some gun control. As in: positive target identification, and knowing your target and what lies behind it.
Good thing the shooter only had a low capacity* handgun or some people might have been sho--oh, wait.
Yeah I'm feeling extra-snarky this morning.
*Just reported as a 9 round magazine .45.
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Holy schnikey! The POLICE "accidentally" shot several innocent people.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_EMPIRE_STATE_BUILDING_SHOOTING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-24-11-49-15
Um... I'm in favor of some gun control. As in: positive target identification, and knowing your target and what lies behind it.
Could have been some jerking of the gun due to the NY1 or NY2 triggers....
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Could have been some jerking of the gun due to the NY1 or NY2 triggers....
Or they can't hit *expletive deleted*it and shouldn't be working as cops.
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It kind of reads like *all* of the injuries except the original victim were caused by the police.
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It kind of reads like *all* of the injuries except the original victim were caused by the police.
Yeah. From the witness reports trickling in, this guy walked up to one person in particular that he had an issue with, executed him, and then tried to walk away. I don't suppose there is any cctv footage from the "most secure building in new york"?
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Surveillance video footage shows Johnson reaching into a bag, pulling out a .45-caliber pistol and pointing it at officers, Kelly said. The officers drew their weapons and started firing, killing Johnson, Kelly said.
"These officers ... had absolutely no choice," Kelly said. "This individual took a gun out very close to them and perhaps fired at them."
Kelly said authorities believe police may be responsible for some of the injuries because of the limited capacity of the gunman's weapon.
The two officers fired a total of 14 rounds at Johnson, Kelly said. Mayor Michael Bloomberg said some of the nine wounded may have been shot by police in the mayhem. Johnson's semi-automatic weapon was equipped to fire at least eight rounds; at least one round was left in the clip, police said. Another loaded magazine was in his briefcase.
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[snark] Maybe at long last NY will once and for all crack down on gun violence and enact strict gun ownership and possession laws. [/snark]
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"These officers ... had absolutely no choice," Kelly said. "This individual took a gun out very close to them and perhaps fired at them."
Your right. But they have a responsibility to *expletive deleted*ing hit what they aim at. Otherwise it's negligence in my opinion
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Your right. But they have a responsibility to *expletive deleted* hit what they aim at. Otherwise it's negligence in my opinion
It's negligence according to the COURTS when us lowly peons accidentally shoot people while defending ourselves. Should be personal liability on the po-po as well, since they're often held up as the only ones "professional enough" to be armed in society.
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Interesting.
http://us.foxnews.mobi/quickPage.html?page=26048&content=78766507&pageNum=-1
A witness told police that laid-off clothing designer Jeffrey Johnson fired at officers, but ballistics evidence so far contradicts that, authorities said.
NYPD would never lie!!
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laid-off clothing designer Jeffrey Johnson...
He's the first gay man to carry out a mass shooting. What a pioneer.
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He's the first gay man to carry out a mass shooting. What a pioneer.
Racist!
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This doesn't bode well for the NYPD...
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_EMPIRE_STATE_BUILDING_SHOOTING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-24-11-49-15
After waiting for Ercolino, 41, to come to work, Johnson walked up to him, pulled out a .45-caliber pistol and fired at his head, Kelly said. After he fell to the ground, Johnson stood over him and shot four more times, a witness told investigators. ... A witness had told police that Johnson fired at the officers, but authorities say ballistics evidence doesn't support that. Johnson's weapon held seven rounds, they said. He fired five times at Ercolino, one round was still in the gun and one was ejected when officers secured it, authorities said.
So, guy A murders guy B and then walks off without shooting at anyone else. Now enter Bloomberg's personal army. Guy A gets hosed.... and in the process the cops shoot nine bystanders. Isn't this the sort of wild shooting, blood-in-the-streets, crap that Bloomy keeps predicting will happen if petty civilians are allowed to carry guns? :facepalm: But remember, these cops are the only ones "professional enough" to carry a gun in NYC.
Oh, and just a little extra bovine excrement. You know, for icing.
"New York City, as you know, is the safest big city in the country, and we are on pace to have a record low number of murders this year," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.
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Interesting.
http://us.foxnews.mobi/quickPage.html?page=26048&content=78766507&pageNum=-1
NYPD would never lie!!
The cop-worship in that link is atrocious.
If bullets fired by police or fragments struck civilians, then the officers were also lucky to be alive, since bullets could have boomeranged in their direction, said Eugene O'Donnell, a professor of police studies at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice.
The sainted dieties of the all-powerful 9-11 watch over them... :angel: [barf]
NYPD officers are lucky they're in NYC. If I've been shot at or hit, I don't care who I get shot by... if I get shot, I'm putting down the *expletive deleted*er that put a bullet in me. Period. 3-dimensional perfect mirror ricochets are the least of your concern. :facepalm:
He said officers are trained to fire only as a last resort and must fire multiple shots because only one in five generally hit the intended target.
Funny... I train to make every shot a hit on the intended target, and to put multiple successive hits on the same target because 1 is seldom enough. My competitive record doesn't show 100% hit rate with pistol, but it does show about 85% in very dynamic run-n-gun environments, and that's with tiny little 6" targets that are much smaller than a torso. And 100% with rifle to 600 yards.
Looks like NYC is getting ready to throw this particular batch of goons under the bus, though. Good.
Those injured can sue the city for damages for personal injury if they can prove officers did not exercise care reasonably required under similar circumstances. The family of a woman killed by police in 1993 received nearly $4 million.
The woman, Bonnie Vargas, was taken hostage by a gunman fleeing a bank robbery in Manhattan. She was shot three times by police when they exchanged fire with the hostage taker. The appeals court noted that the patrol guide said police in a hostage situation could not fire a weapon "when doing so will unnecessarily endanger innocent persons."
The court also wrote: "The immunity afforded a municipality for its employee's discretionary conduct does not extend to situations where the employee, a police officer, violates acceptable police practice."
O'Donnell said it was likely lawyers will test the adequacy of Friday's police shooting.
"I'm sure there's people chasing the ambulances into the emergency room as we speak," he said.
The poor dear-hearts. Being held accountable for their actions. The humanity... the horror.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.staticflickr.com%2F2%2F1362599_02bcdea730.jpg&hash=688ce5781b3d46663dfcb3ced03ba66803999336)
I move that the NY1 and NY2 triggers be retired in favor of the NY3 trigger. It shall weigh 427 pounds and be augmented by a forged titanium block that permanently covers the firing pin hole on the pistol's breech face. NYPD duty holsters shall require 5 points of contact to draw the weapon, only after a successful fingerprint scan that is sent via wi-fi to police headquarters for validation.
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One suspect, NINE INNOCENT BYSTANDERS SHOT...
:facepalm:
No, that's not good enough...
There:
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The NYPD and Bloomie are going to be in deep sheepdip on this shoot.
There were way too many bystanders taking video and still shots of the shooting.
Saw a tourist with video on CNN last night who captured the beginning of the shooting up until Johnson was down on the sidewalk.
He saw bodies other than Johnson after the cops had been shooting, and attributed the other victims to police rounds.
Bloomberg and his personal police force are going to get hammered for this debacle.
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No police officer needs to have an "automatic" weapon with "a huge clip" designed "only to kill people." I know I heard this irrefutable logic somewhere...
I think we now have empirical proof.
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Allowing Police to arm themselves with military grade assault weapons will only lead to more innocents being maimed and killed! No honest cop needs more than 10 rounds!
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http://us.foxnews.mobi/quickPage.html?page=26048&content=78766507&pageNum=-1
He said officers are trained to fire only as a last resort and must fire multiple shots because only one in five generally hit the intended target.
:facepalm: Wha----? ?
All I can say is WOW.
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It kind of reads like *all* of the injuries except the original victim were caused by the police.
Correct. And while, as expected, Bloomberg is trying to use the incident to complain about all those guns out there, he is putting a very different "spin" on the fact that his cops obviously panicked and just started spraying bullets:
Bloomberg said: "We all use the word 'hero' – he [referring to the construction worker] did what he should have done." The mayor added: "He saw something, he said something" – the phrase has become the backbone of efforts to get New York residents to be vigilant ever since the September 11 attacks. The actions of both the worker and police officers may have prevented further injuries, Bloomberg and Kelly said.
So hizzoner thinks shooting NINE passersby "may have prevented further injuries"? Methinks hizzoner needs a reality check.
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No police officer needs to have an "automatic" weapon with "a huge clip" designed "only to kill people." I know I heard this irrefutable logic somewhere...
I think we now have empirical proof.
Where can I get one of these people-killing clips? My guns need bullets to do that ...
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take a look
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dramatic-surveillance-footage-shows-police-fatally-shooting-empire-state-building-shooter-graphic/
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take a look
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dramatic-surveillance-footage-shows-police-fatally-shooting-empire-state-building-shooter-graphic/
Well, it's not a great video but what I saw appears to strongly contradict Commissioner Kelly's statement that the officers had a gun "right in their face." I don't even see the gunman in the video, he's off-screen somewhere to the right (of the screen). I want to know how the cops managed to hit the woman standing at the left of the screen, who was well to the right of the officer who remained in view throughout.
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Gunman's. Walking along curb city shooting gets weird lots of ricochet and fragments. Also someone down is not always hit. Folk just drop
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Another link to the video: http://youtu.be/L8eCYhGkT_o
Cop on the right is one-handing it while scooting away.
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Gunman's. Walking along curb city shooting gets weird lots of ricochet and fragments. Also someone down is not always hit. Folk just drop
He didn't fire a shot.
He had a pistol that held seven rounds. He fired five at his victim, the police cleared one from the chamber when they recovered the gun, and there was one round still in the magazine.
However -- viewing the video at full screen I now see that the person I thought was a bystander was, in fact, the perp himself. At that distance, if the cops fired 16 shots I would expect that at least fifteen of them should have been on target.
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Another link to the video: http://youtu.be/L8eCYhGkT_o
Cop on the right is one-handing it while scooting away.
If NYPD does end up backing these guys, that means that NYPD supports ANY shooting where officers perform multiple round one-handed shooting scenarios at 30 foot and greater distances.
30 foot... one handed... rapid fire (~3-4 shots per second).
That's so... professional. :facepalm:
I understand 1 or 2 shots with that technique, inside of 20 feet. Standard Tueller / get off the X tactic. But the officer GAINED DISTANCE with no additional aggression from the shooter. He could have transitioned to two-handed shooting, actually using the sights (at least the fracking FRONT SIGHT), and increased his hit rate as he approached 40 feet.
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Little more detail on the bystander injuries.
New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said all nine bystanders wounded in Friday's Empire State Building shooting had been hit with police gunfire, CNN reported Saturday morning.
According to Kelly, of the nine wounded, three suffered gunshot wounds and six were hit by fragments.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/25/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-bullets-shot-all-nine_n_1830007.html
I'm surprised they were willingly to admit this so quickly. Is that the sound of a bus approaching?
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/25/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-bullets-shot-all-nine_n_1830007.html
I'm surprised they were willingly to admit this so quickly. Is that the sound of a bus approaching?
Press release on a Saturday?.....it'll be a rather small bus....
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Press release on a Saturday?.....it'll be a rather small bus....
Fair point. To me it sounded like a preparatory to slamming the responding officers with the sole onus of the whole thing. Apparently one of the officers in the shooting is already at odds with the city for blowing the whistle on their quota scheme which also lent me to believe they'd be more than happy to help him under the Greyhound.
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If bullets fired by police or fragments struck civilians, then the officers were also lucky to be alive, since bullets could have boomeranged in their direction, said Eugene O'Donnell, a professor of police studies at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice.
That makes my brain bleed :facepalm:
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I understand 1 or 2 shots with that technique, inside of 20 feet. Standard Tueller / get off the X tactic. But the officer GAINED DISTANCE with no additional aggression from the shooter. He could have transitioned to two-handed shooting, actually using the sights (at least the fracking FRONT SIGHT), and increased his hit rate as he approached 40 feet.
That would be the officer on the (screen) right. The officer on the (screen) left, who was closer to the shooter, was firing two-handed. I'd estimate that he was maybe eight feet away when he started shooting, and probably six feet away when the shooter fell to the ground.
The second oficer, the one who moved toward screen right, increased his distance from the shooter but he never approached 40 feet away, or even 30 feet. Maybe 20 feet by the end of the active shooting.
Even with that, the two cops together managed to put 3 rounds in the shooter and 13 rounds ... elsewhere. That's an 18.75 percent hit rate, which is rather abysmal. The closer guy should have put all of however may round he fired into the target.
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That makes my brain bleed :facepalm:
:facepalm: In other words, the police officers are lucky they didn't shoot themselves! :facepalm:
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That makes my brain bleed :facepalm:
RKL it's true, see Hollywood says it can be done so it has to be true. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_p9VIBYo1E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_p9VIBYo1E)
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:facepalm: In other words, the police officers are lucky they didn't shoot themselves! :facepalm:
Would have been better than shooting innocent folk
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That would be the officer on the (screen) right. The officer on the (screen) left, who was closer to the shooter, was firing two-handed. I'd estimate that he was maybe eight feet away when he started shooting, and probably six feet away when the shooter fell to the ground.
The second oficer, the one who moved toward screen right, increased his distance from the shooter but he never approached 40 feet away, or even 30 feet. Maybe 20 feet by the end of the active shooting.
Even with that, the two cops together managed to put 3 rounds in the shooter and 13 rounds ... elsewhere. That's an 18.75 percent hit rate, which is rather abysmal. The closer guy should have put all of however may round he fired into the target.
People hunch over when going into combat stances, and I think a fair estimate of height to be about 5 feet, give or take a few inches.
The planters on the sidewalk are about 3 feet in diameter.
The left officer is 2 body lengths away from the shooter, so about 10 feet. Also confirmed by being about 3 planters distant.
The right officer starts out at least 3 body lengths away, maybe even 4. He's at least 2 planter-diameters further back than his partner, maybe even 3. He then bee-lines at a right angle away from the shooter and his partner, 3 body lengths sideways. a^2 + b^2 = c^2 in a right triangle, so 16 + 9 = 25. sqrt(25) = 5. A classic 3-4-5 triangle. 5 body lengths, so 25 feet or so.
So, maybe not 40 feet like I initially suggested. But well over 20 and maybe closer to 30.
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Bloomberg should get into some hot water over this police shooting in his city. They may have done more harm than good as the shooter was not being aggressive until pushed into action.
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Bring back those .38 six-shooters.
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Interesting blog run by an retired Special Forces weapons man (MOS 18b). He estimates engagement distance at under 3 paces.
http://weaponsman.com/?p=4541
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Bring back those .38 six-shooters.
With one bullet in the shirt pocket :P
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Bloomberg should get into some hot water over this police shooting in his city. They may have done more harm than good as the shooter was not being aggressive until pushed into action.
I can only hope.
I am sure that he will find a way to put an anti-gun spin on this, though.
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http://news.yahoo.com/nypd-empire-state-victims-hit-police-gunfire-180844387.html
aside from the initial victim (the shooters co-worker), police caused the injuries to all nine of the bystanders caught in the crossfire. i wonder if the gunman even fired or was attempting suicide by cop?
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With one bullet in the shirt pocket :P
+1
All the better to teach the current cretins in field how to keep the peace instead of just 'law enforcement'.
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That poster violates one the the 4 basic safety rules: Never give your gun to a monkey, no matter how responsible he seems.
(The same could be said of a NYPD cop, but I won't go there)
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<pedant>That's not a monkey</pedant>
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<pedant>That's not a monkey</pedant>
That's fair. Would you prefer ape or chimpanzee? (I think it works better with chimpanzee)
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That would be the officer on the (screen) right. The officer on the (screen) left, who was closer to the shooter, was firing two-handed. I'd estimate that he was maybe eight feet away when he started shooting, and probably six feet away when the shooter fell to the ground.
The second oficer, the one who moved toward screen right, increased his distance from the shooter but he never approached 40 feet away, or even 30 feet. Maybe 20 feet by the end of the active shooting.
Even with that, the two cops together managed to put 3 rounds in the shooter and 13 rounds ... elsewhere. That's an 18.75 percent hit rate, which is rather abysmal. The closer guy should have put all of however may round he fired into the target.
Even with that, the two cops together managed to put 3 rounds in the shooter and 13 rounds
presumes facts not in evidence and ignores some that are in evidence
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presumes facts not in evidence and ignores some that are in evidence
Your objection is sustained. The court will now adjourn for sammiches.
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Your objection is sustained. The court will now adjourn for sammiches.
Apple juice for me!
Also, I am calling judicial notice that the NYPD are a threat to themselves and the NY public.
I also request, Your Honor, that they henceforth be referred to as TGTCSS (The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight) from now on.
An alternate name would be TGTCFTOAWBH (The Gang That Couldn't Find Their Own Azzes With Both Hands).
I rest my case.
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Even with that, the two cops together managed to put 3 rounds in the shooter and 13 rounds
presumes facts not in evidence and ignores some that are in evidence
Huh what?
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Huh what?
at that point no one knows how many the crook caught. and with fragments one round can wound many especially when it hits a round concrete planter. if this much swag was done on huff po folk here would be livid. but its different when "our side" does it. heck they might have only put one in bad guy. we didn't know yet
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as predictable much of early coverage was factually challenged
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html
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NYPD is reporting that Johnson had 10 bullet wounds.
It's been said that you don't rise to the occasion, you revert to you're training. I think this shooting, along with pretty much every other, non swat, NYPD shooting shows that training to be so spare as to be dangerous to the public. NYC should consider both their training budgets and time as well as the tactics used.
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NYPD is reporting that Johnson had 10 bullet wounds.
It's been said that you don't rise to the occasion, you revert to you're training. I think this shooting, along with pretty much every other, non swat, NYPD shooting shows that training to be so spare as to be dangerous to the public. NYC should consider both their training budgets and time as well as the tactics used.
I would also submit that New Yorkers would be better served by having the responsibility of their own protection with widespread CCW approvals.
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I would also submit that New Yorkers would be better served by having the responsibility of their own protection with widespread CCW approvals.
never lived in new york i see?
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never lived in new york i see?
An adult has the responsability for their safety.
A pistol is a very effective way to protect one's self from criminals.
These facts are not location dependant.
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An adult has the responsability for their safety.
A pistol is a very effective way to protect one's self from criminals.
These facts are not location dependant.
don't they get to make that choice themselves?
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don't they get to make that choice themselves?
They don't have much choice about whether to pack heat, if that's what you mean.
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Additionally, that 38k number is simply pistol permits. For ownership. Bad journalism
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don't they get to make that choice themselves?
No statement in my post is a choice. They are both facts.
Adults DO have responsability for their own safety. They can choice whether, or how, to exercise that rsponsability but that doesn't change the fact of it's existance.
Pistols ARE an effective form of defense. You can choose (in some places) whether or not to use one, but it is an effective tool.
If you were asking whether new yorkers should be alowed tonchoose whether or not to carry, sure. But right now they can't.
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never lived in new york i see?
No, you don't see. I was born there.
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NYPD is reporting that Johnson had 10 bullet wounds.
The story keeps changing. First it was reported that three rounds from the cops hit Johnson, then it was seven ... now they've ratcheted it up to ten. Supposedly they only fired sixteen, so if they put ten into the bad guy they managed to wound nine bystanders with six shots. That's pretty miraculous, even allowing for ricocheting fragments.
Pretty soon I expect the story will be that all sixteen shots hit Johnson and all the bystanders were injured by other panicked people fleeing the shooting.
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10 wounds from bullets, that would of course include entry wounds, exit wounds and internal organs damaged by bullets, each counted as a separate wound.
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The amazing thing about police states is how lawless they are.
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I think this shooting, along with pretty much every other, non swat, NYPD shooting shows that training to be so spare as to be dangerous to the public. NYC should consider both their training budgets and time as well as the tactics used.
Possibly less investing by NYPD in UAVs and other "cool mil-tech" and more investment in the equivalent of "Defensive Pistol 1" training that many CCW holders take and that is apparently superior to NYPD basic pistol training.
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Possibly less investing by NYPD in UAVs and other "cool mil-tech" and more investment in the equivalent of "Defensive Pistol 1" training that many CCW holders take and that is apparently superior to NYPD basic pistol training.
Ayup. Then, eliminate the NY1 and NY2 triggers (8 and 12 pounds) and stick with the stock trigger in the damned gun like the manufacturer intended... but only after each officer requalifies on new, higher standards.
Can't have guys out there used to the NY2 trigger that have crappy gun handling skills and rest their finger on the trigger with 4 to 6 pounds of pressure pre-staging the thing, suddenly get a 5.5 pound trigger... without correcting their training.
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Possibly less investing by NYPD in UAVs and other "cool mil-tech" and more investment in the equivalent of "Defensive Pistol 1" training that many CCW holders take and that is apparently superior to NYPD basic pistol training.
But they are clearly too professional for basic pistol courses. "Defensive Pistol 1"..pfff ;/
Maybe if you called it "Advanced Tactical Course: Hit what you are shooting at- For LE only" it might generate interest
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But they are clearly too professional for basic pistol courses. "Defensive Pistol 1"..pfff ;/
Maybe if you called it "Advanced Tactical Course: Hit what you are shooting at- For LE only" it might generate interest
I took that course, and it was lame. Until you train by big boy rules, you will never be a Tetragrammaton Cleric.
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I dunno, but it seems at that close a range ("arms length" as described by the NYPD) it might have been better to charge the guy and take him down without shooting ??? =|
It ain't that I'm sorry that they killed the shooter, either ;)
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First do no harm.
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First do no harm.
No no no. First comes officer safety. Get it right, subject.
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No no no. First comes officer safety. Get it right, subject.
La la la... I can't hear you over the 9-11 in the air...
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Possibly less investing by NYPD in UAVs and other "cool mil-tech" and more investment in the equivalent of "Defensive Pistol 1" training that many CCW holders take and that is apparently superior to NYPD basic pistol training.
Hell, a lot of CHL shooters I see are doing good to hit the sillouette at 7 yards. There are always some who rarely shoot and you might not want them shooting at more thana few feet.
What the cops need is a little bit of good instruction and a lot of practice. But, I agree with you in that they are spending a lot on high tech and need to put a little focus back on basic skills.
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1. I hope I get as much consideration from the gov't as these officers are getting if I ever am in such a fight and third-parties are injured.
2. It is not just street cops that seem lacking in software, even as they get more hardware. I've seen lotsa SWAT teams do things that indicate their level of training is not very high.
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Did one of the officers get all the hits, and the other all the misses ???
=|
a lot of CHL shooters I see are doing good to hit the sillouette at 7 yards
I think even I could hit at five feet :facepalm:
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Hell, a lot of CHL shooters I see are doing good to hit the sillouette at 7 yards. There are always some who rarely shoot and you might not want them shooting at more thana few feet.
Oh I agree -- too many CHL holders get their license and never practice, or just shoot paper and never get off the "X". Even the most basic defensive pistol course is pretty eye opening if all you've ever done before is shoot paper, whether private citizen or police.
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Oh I agree -- too many CHL holders get their license and never practice, or just shoot paper and never get off the "X". Even the most basic defensive pistol course is pretty eye opening if all you've ever done before is shoot paper, whether private citizen or police.
Just adding a stupid timer while shooting at X's is enough to mess with your head. Then try shooting metal plates with a timer. [note to self: buy a shot timer next time I order gun stuff]
BTW, if all your shots go in the X ring, you're shooting too slow (not that I have that problem anyway). I try to just shoot as fast as I can keep all the shots on a paper plate, and I need to practice this a lot more often (and at different distances, and with the wrong hand, etc.)
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No sense wasting a perfectly good target by just shooting it in one place ;)
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Oh I agree -- too many CHL holders get their license and never practice, or just shoot paper and never get off the "X". Even the most basic defensive pistol course is pretty eye opening if all you've ever done before is shoot paper, whether private citizen or police.
The problem is that I don't know if people buy cheap guns because they can't afford better guns or if they are getting the cheapest semi-auto they can to avoid the Texas revolver/semi-auto rules. I have seen people show up with Hi Points or cheap guns right out of the box with no oil. After shooting, you see targets that have so few holes, I can only assume the people are closing their eyes. You could just point the gun without sights and pass the shooting test in Texas.
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[note to self: buy a shot timer next time I order gun stuff]
Got am Android phone? (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.stimer#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDIxMiwiY29tLnN0aW1lciJd)
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You could just point the gun without sights and pass the shooting test in Texas.
Looks like at least one or two NYPD officers took and passed that same test
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Got am Android phone? (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.stimer#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDIxMiwiY29tLnN0aW1lciJd)
Nope. I've got about the dumbest phone you can get that has a full keyboard, and a Virgin pay-by-the-minute voice/text only plan.
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Nope. I've got about the dumbest phone you can get that has a full keyboard, and a Virgin pay-by-the-minute voice/text only plan.
Your phone has a virgins voice. Cool
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Did one of the officers get all the hits, and the other all the misses ???
My guess on that would be yes.
After watching the video multiple times at full-screen, it appeared to me that the officer closer to the subject (the officer to the left on the screen) was a left-hander and fired two-handed in a fairly classic Weaver stance. The other officer was scooting away from the subject, moving rapidly and at a diagonal away from his target, and firing one-handed while moving rapidly away from his target.
What's your best guess as to which one was more likely to have "scored" multiple misses?
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No no no. First comes officer safety. Get it right, subject.
I don't disagree with any cop wanting to get home safely.
It cannot be accomplished, though, by breaking the law, or at the expense of any citizen's rights.
It also cannot be used in defense of overzealous behavior or bad decisions.
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Well, it should not... but often times is.
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http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2012/08/one-of-nypds-finest-sounds-off-on.html
:facepalm:
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http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2012/08/one-of-nypds-finest-sounds-off-on.html
:facepalm:
Basically, most cops over the last 30-40 years have been outsiders from the Gun Culture. Or rather, the Gun Culture has foregone the law enforcement / peace officer profession, compelling departments to hire from outside the Gun Culture.
It is one of my greatest joys to put a handgun into a new shooter's hands, build basic safe handling skills, effective marksmanship, and competent draw and movement techniques... and then tell them if they practice this just a few times more until they get muscle memory, they'll be more proficient than 90% of the police in the entire world. The look in their eyes is priceless.