Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on August 28, 2012, 09:20:33 AM
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I didn't know lawsuits were still in play on this. If this had been in the US, somehow I think the ruling wouldn't have been as sensible. Anyway, pancakes for everyone.
A quote from the article:
Their lawyer, Hussein Abu Hussein, lamented the court's ruling, saying "the verdict blames the victim."
Duh.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/08/28/israeli-court-rejects-killed-us-activist-family-civil-lawsuit/#ixzz24pDFXDbS?test=latestnews
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Required to be posted anytime St. Pancake is mentioned.
http://www.seattleactivism.org/events/event6522.htm
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=19533_The_Rachel_Corrie_Pancake_Breakfast&only
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While I don't exactly approve of standing in front of a killdozer, I also have a hard time rewarding a country that kills a US citizen. We should shave off at least a billion dollars per fatality in any foreign aid we provide. Actually, suspension of all foreign aid for one year per citizen might be better. Preferably with bombing some important piece of infrastructure, but good luck with that.
Call me funny, but I prefer foreign countries be very nervous about killing US citizens.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F9%2F94%2FNsa_memorial_1.png&hash=978affdad63249050da2b8132683772da0db1efe)
$34 billion, 34 years without foreign aid, and/or 34 important pieces of infrastructure utterly destroyed would have been a more fitting tribute to the fallen.
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Not familiar with the case.
I assume the pancake reference is 'as flat as a pancake', yes?
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While I don't exactly approve of standing in front of a killdozer, I also have a hard time rewarding a country that kills a US citizen. We should shave off at least a billion dollars per fatality in any foreign aid we provide. Actually, suspension of all foreign aid for one year per citizen might be better. Preferably with bombing some important piece of infrastructure, but good luck with that.
Call me funny, but I prefer foreign countries be very nervous about killing US citizens.
$34 billion, 34 years without foreign aid, and/or 34 important pieces of infrastructure utterly destroyed would have been a more fitting tribute to the fallen.
I wouldn't want to see US citizens killed with malice, or even negligence by foreign powers, but I don't think Corrie falls into those categories. This case is no different than a US citizen stepping in front of a US bus or train or whatever and demanding they "STOP!". I know we had discussions on this when it happened. You step in front of a militarized D-13, you can't expect the operator to see you. Regardless how anyone might feel about the politics of what the Israelis were doing, this was a case of pure stupidity and negligence on the victim's part. Harsh, but true.
Jamie -- at the time, the "Friends of Rachel Corrie" had a pancake breakfast as a fundraiser or something. The irony became something of a joke.
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. . . I also have a hard time rewarding a country that kills a US citizen . . .
Generally agree, but in this instance, it was more of a suicide by someone that allied themselves with the . . . "Palestinians" . . . than anything else.
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Don't forget the bacon with the pancakes please. I'll take mine with raisins and cinnamon with lots of syrup.
Maybe a new brand of pancakes?
Flatasa Pancake brand with a pic of a bulldozer on the front.
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Regardless how anyone might feel about the politics of what the Israelis were doing, this was a case of pure stupidity and negligence on the victim's part. Harsh, but true.
No argument there. Terminally stupid or wanting to become a martyr. From what I gather ISM has a tendency of putting idiotic Western kids in a position of getting shot or injured, for media attention and "raise awareness".
Best solution would be halt foreign aid to the entire region and stay out of the entire mess in general.
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When you play chicken with someone moving an object larger than yourself it is evident you have to factor in the possibility of serious bodily injury, even if it is a slow moving object. That being said however, given the behavior of Israeli government forces in that area and it's disposition towards "foreign people", I don't believe that the killdozer operator would have had any motivation to stop whether he saw her or not. I have a very skeptical view of military vs. civilians operations in general, and even more so of the type going on in that particular region.
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No argument there. Terminally stupid or wanting to become a martyr. From what I gather ISM has a tendency of putting idiotic Western kids in a position of getting shot or injured, for media attention and "raise awareness".
Best solution would be halt foreign aid to the entire region and stay out of the entire mess in general.
I am Boris Karpa and I approve this message.
I am also reminded of that time when an Italian communist/Hamas sympathiser got taken hostage by Al-Quaeda's Gaza branch.
(Yes, it was hilarious.)
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Go on......
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Not familiar with the case.
I assume the pancake reference is 'as flat as a pancake', yes?
USS Liberty, attacked and sank by the IDF. 34 lives lost. BS story from the Israelis about thinking they were attacking an Egyptian horse carrier or some such crap.
I'm still okay with aid but it'd be uite refreshing for the Israelis to come clean on this.
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USS Liberty, attacked and sank by the IDF. 34 lives lost. BS story from the Israelis about thinking they were attacking an Egyptian horse carrier or some such crap.
I'm still okay with aid but it'd be uite refreshing for the Israelis to come clean on this.
[pedant]The Liberty wasn't sunk. Just had a huge effing hole blown in the side and it's life-boats raked with machine gun fire. Oh, strafed by aircraft with their markings painted over too.[/pedant]
They tried very hard to make it look like Egypt was attacking the USS Liberty, and Cairo very nearly got nuked for it.
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USS Liberty, attacked and sank by the IDF. 34 lives lost. BS story from the Israelis about thinking they were attacking an Egyptian horse carrier or some such crap.
I'm still okay with aid but it'd be uite refreshing for the Israelis to come clean on this.
It was not sunk. There was a 39 ft by 24 ft hole in the side, and 821 rocket and machine-gun holes. But Captain McGonagle's command single handedly kept the ship afloat and most of the crew alive, earning the Medal of Honor in the process.
The Israelis hit the ship with Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers attacked with rockets, napalm, and cannon. Jammed the US Navy frequencies. They strafed the ship with 20 and 40 mm shells from torpedo boats. They hit the Liberty with a big honkin' torpedo. Machinegunned the lifeboats. And tried to land a helicopter filled with commandos. And they were essentially held at bay by one man. Dude started off with a handful of M2HB (quickly napalmed) and ended basically with a handful of small arms, fending off wave after wave of superior firepower. In the process, he was wounded, refused to give up command, and had the medics working on him on the bridge. That's right, he fought valiantly against those odds while injured and missing his pants. Truly an inspiration to us all.
We're America. We can beat your best without even getting out of a chair or putting on our trousers.
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Sorry, somehow had sank in my head, even after reading several books.
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Sorry, somehow had sank in my head, even after reading several books.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frevdisk.org%2Fstorage%2F148841_med.jpg&hash=b556fb176e0b4cc698dff3f55aa4436cb1421d62)
Does this look like a man who'd allow his ship to sink just because it had been hit with napalm, missiles, rockets, a torpedo, cannon and small arms? Look at the sloppy clothing, unshaven face, cup of coffee surgically attached to the hands, the missing trousers, steely gaze. Ready to tell a thousand sea stories over a mug of beer. "You kids today, you think THIS is bad? Back in MY day..."
Pride of the US Navy, by the Gods.
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The Israelis hit the ship with Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers attacked with rockets, napalm, and cannon. Jammed the US Navy frequencies. They strafed the ship with 20 and 40 mm shells from torpedo boats. They hit the Liberty with a big honkin' torpedo. Machinegunned the lifeboats. And tried to land a helicopter filled with commandos.
Whaa... :O I had heard about it being strafed by machinegun fire for a few passes, but did not know the rest. Remind me again why nothing was done about that? I mean... WTF!
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I am firmly in support of Israel's rights to proactive self-defense and self-determination. That said, the Liberty and the constant pathetic whining to get Jonathan Pollard released irk me immensely with respect to our sometimes blind, reverent support.
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BBC documentary on the Liberty Incident (http://youtu.be/va0sHuZyJwU)
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I think the verdict was flawed. Her death was not accidential. It was intentional ... intentional suicide.
She CHOSE to go to Israel and meddle in affairs that were none of her business, and that she almost certainly did not fully (or even partially) understand. She CHOSE to enter a restricted zone, and she CHOSE to stand in the path of a freakin' BULLDOZER. There was nothing "accidental" about it.
Case closed.
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We need to remember, there are no permanent allies, only permanent interests. Other countries do.
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Meanwhile, back at the ranch:
This is a Hero:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2Fd%2Fd8%2FTianasquare.jpg%2F300px-Tianasquare.jpg&hash=6a202e80d8ec85ad797cfa117795a067bd47d43b)
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Taken by itself, and all past US - Israeli history aside, few things funnier than a dumbshit flattened for her own lack of judgement.
One has every right in the world to burn the flag and support who they wish, but I'll still laugh when they get pancaked for their efforts.
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While I don't necessarily want other countries killing US citizens with impunity, I really don't think our Govt should be backing and implicitly supporting US Citizens who choose to go to foreign countries and involve themselves in local politics and disputes.
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Meanwhile, back at the ranch:
This is a Hero:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2Fd%2Fd8%2FTianasquare.jpg%2F300px-Tianasquare.jpg&hash=6a202e80d8ec85ad797cfa117795a067bd47d43b)
He knew he was gonna die, chose to do it anyway. Admirable support for the cause from someone who was directly affected and was fed up
Corrie was a spoiled idiot who didn't think the dozer would keep going
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It was not sunk. There was a 39 ft by 24 ft hole in the side, and 821 rocket and machine-gun holes. But Captain McGonagle's command single handedly kept the ship afloat and most of the crew alive, earning the Medal of Honor in the process.
The Israelis hit the ship with Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers attacked with rockets, napalm, and cannon. Jammed the US Navy frequencies. They strafed the ship with 20 and 40 mm shells from torpedo boats. They hit the Liberty with a big honkin' torpedo. Machinegunned the lifeboats. And tried to land a helicopter filled with commandos. And they were essentially held at bay by one man. Dude started off with a handful of M2HB (quickly napalmed) and ended basically with a handful of small arms, fending off wave after wave of superior firepower. In the process, he was wounded, refused to give up command, and had the medics working on him on the bridge. That's right, he fought valiantly against those odds while injured and missing his pants. Truly an inspiration to us all.
We're America. We can beat your best without even getting out of a chair or putting on our trousers.
Scots are used to fighting without pants ;)
=D
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While I don't necessarily want other countries killing US citizens with impunity, I really don't think our Govt should be backing and implicitly supporting US Citizens who choose to go to foreign countries and involve themselves in local politics and disputes.
Does that statement exclude members of the military and government who go overseas and involve themselves in local politics?
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Does that statement exclude members of the military and government who go overseas and involve themselves in local politics?
ZING!
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Does that statement exclude members of the military and government who go overseas and involve themselves in local politics?
We're protecting ourselves by taking the fight to them.
I'll leave that up to you as to whether I'm serious or not.
Chris
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Does that statement exclude members of the military and government who go overseas and involve themselves in local politics?
You seem to have overlooked the operative word: "choose"
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You seem to have overlooked the operative word: "choose"
Quite. Military folk choose to defend their country; not how that mission will be interpreted.
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Does that statement exclude members of the military and government who go overseas and involve themselves in local politics?
;/ I am sure even you can understand the difference between some random tourist and someone who actually represents our government.
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;/ I am sure even you can understand the difference between some random tourist and someone who actually represents our government.
Gotcha - so if there's government permission to do so, this behaviour is perfectly ok.
funny how we denounce government intervention in our own local affairs but think it's just fine as long as the .gov meddles in other nation's local affairs.
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Gotcha - so if there's government permission to do so, this behaviour is perfectly ok.
No, not permission. Orders. Military members don't get to choose where or why the military is deployed. That would be a step backward into military rule.
funny how we denounce government intervention in our own local affairs but think it's just fine as long as the .gov meddles in other nation's local affairs.
No, nobody said that.
Sorry, man. You just can't find the irony, or contradiction, or hypocrisy, or whatever it is you're looking for here. Better luck next time.
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Gotcha - so if there's government permission to do so, this behaviour is perfectly ok.
funny how we denounce government intervention in our own local affairs but think it's just fine as long as the .gov meddles in other nation's local affairs.
Your statement pretty much said that individual soldiers "choose" to go to foreign countries and meddle in their politics. That's very different from our government choosing to meddle in other countries' politics, and ordering members of the military to go to said countries and carry out said meddling. It's not like they really have a choice. The UCMJ is very clear that soldiers are not supposed to obey unlawful orders, but they jolly well better obey any order they're not VERY certain is unlawful.
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Your statement pretty much said that individual soldiers "choose" to go to foreign countries and meddle in their politics. That's very different from our government choosing to meddle in other countries' politics, and ordering members of the military to go to said countries and carry out said meddling. It's not like they really have a choice. The UCMJ is very clear that soldiers are not supposed to obey unlawful orders, but they jolly well better obey any order they're not VERY certain is unlawful.
So which is it - is meddling in the local affairs of others fine as long as its government action? Why so much disdain in principle if it's individuals? Would rachael corrie's death have been more objectionable if she were demonstrating in alignment with military policy, for example, protesting outside Hamas headquarters?
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Don't bother, Hawkmoon. ;/
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So which is it - is meddling in the local affairs of others fine as long as its government action? Why so much disdain in principle if it's individuals? Would rachael corrie's death have been more objectionable if she were demonstrating in alignment with military policy, for example, protesting outside Hamas headquarters?
See if you get this:
If I send a man somewhere to risk his life, I am, to an extent, responsible for these risks.
If he goes off on his own, with no request or encouragement from me, I cannot be held responsible in any way, shape, or form.
Yes, it might be better to help that man out, but I am certainly not duty-bound to do so.
Lots of U.S. citizens are arrested and put in prison annually abroad for doing things that are not illegal in the US, or because due process in the countries they're doing it in works differently than in America. They are neither protected by the US government nor would it be feasible for the US to protect anyone who brings upon himself the wrath of a foreign government - it is only when the government is tyrannical (like Iran) that this bring out public outrage.
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I'm all for the axiom of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" but in certain circumstances, such as Iran targeting our citizens as a political reprisal, and not for actual misdeeds being committed, I'm reminded of a 2 millennia old phrase.
Civis Romanus sum.
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The bulldozer driver has said he didn't see 23-year-old Rachel Corrie, a pro-Palestinian activist who opposed the military's demolition of Palestinian homes.
So she went overseas on her own volition to oppose a foreign military.
Doesn't this make her a merc?
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So which is it - is meddling in the local affairs of others fine as long as its government action? Why so much disdain in principle if it's individuals? Would rachael corrie's death have been more objectionable if she were demonstrating in alignment with military policy, for example, protesting outside Hamas headquarters?
If she had stepped out in front of an 18 wheeler in the US to protest logging, I would have about the same level of remorse, all for the unfortunate driver who has to deal with running her over. In neither case would she represent me or my country in any way whatsoever nor would I assign any fault to the driver that ran her over or the people the driver represents.
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If she had stepped out in front of an 18 wheeler in the US to protest logging, I would have about the same level of remorse, all for the unfortunate driver who has to deal with running her over. In neither case would she represent me or my country in any way whatsoever nor would I assign any fault to the driver that ran her over or the people the driver represents.
This.
I recall an incident where an environitwit sat on some RR tracks to block a train and got his legs cut off. The engineer likely could not stop in time. Likewise, my sympathy is for the engineer, not the nitwit.
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This.
I recall an incident where an environitwit sat on some RR tracks to block a train and got his legs cut off. The engineer likely could not stop in time. Likewise, my sympathy is for the engineer, not the nitwit.
I saw video of that. Train. Was going slow. The guy on the tracks was poster child for moron
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Wow, this is the first time I've ever heard of the USS Liberty.
iirc R Corrie's parents are just as idiotic as their daughter, I'm glad they lost.
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So she went overseas on her own volition to oppose a foreign military.
Doesn't this make her a merc?
Nope, not quite, just a revolutionary rebel, like those fellows that are always on CNN, you know the ones belonging to ex Al Qaeda factions that are currently fighting the Syrian Government and receive NATO, Saudi and Qatari support. What are they called again? The Free Syrian Army?
They were upgraded from terrorists to freedom fighters when they started fighting for the interests of our allies. ;)
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Nope, not quite, just a revolutionary rebel, like those fellows that are always on CNN, you know the ones belonging to ex Al Qaeda factions that are currently fighting the Syrian Government and receive NATO, Saudi and Qatari support. What are they called again? The Free Syrian Army?
They were upgraded from terrorists to freedom fighters when they started fighting for the interests of our allies. ;)
I thought that the NATO money goes to some competing Syrian rebel faction?
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I thought that the NATO money goes to some competing Syrian rebel faction?
I doubt there is much control over where that money ultimately goes.
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Note to self............ Buy more Caterpillar stock.........