Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on September 06, 2012, 12:56:26 PM
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http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LT_HONDURAS_PRIVATE_CITIES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-09-05-22-36-19
Interesting.
Honduras is selling land to companies to build 3 cities. They will be private cities, exempt from Honduras law, making their own law and capable of forming international agreements of their own. They will have their own police force, judiciary, city council, etc.
Part of me screams "ROBOCOP!" but in other ways I see it as a land-based experiment similar to a Sea Stedding.
I wish them luck, but won't be someone to move there as an early adopter.
I would expect the lack of democratic principles to foster greater respect for private property, but at the same time I would expect a lack of impartiality on the part of police and judiciary roles, not so much in regards to minor crime but very much in regards to freedom of expression, tax, or human rights issues.
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Reminiscent of Pournelle/Niven's Oath of Fealty. I see more challenges in an us v. them, haves/have nots friction with the traditional polity over perceived inequities (taxes, resources, technology, etc.).
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I was just thinking of Oath of Fealty and Todos Santos. But if they can emulate the economic free zone of Dubai and have a First World legal and medical system, it would be pretty intriguing. You would probably need to build a wall around the city, though.
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If they are profitable you can bet that the Honduran government will demand a cut.
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I was thinking more Hong Kong before the handover to the Chinese.
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If they are profitable you can bet that the Honduran government will demand a cut.
Or just nationalize the entire city.
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Neo-feudalism on display.
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I'm in the "watch and see what happens" category.
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Yup! I like experiments in capitalistic freedom.
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Hmmm . . . if one of the cities is organized by some major drug lords, things could become interesting. [popcorn]
If one of the cities decides the residents are not free to leave . . . doubly interesting. [popcorn]
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Or just nationalize the entire city.
"I am leaving it as I found it. Take over. It's yours." >:D
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Hmmm . . . if one of the cities is organized by some major drug lords, things could become interesting. [popcorn]
If one of the cities decides the residents are not free to leave . . . doubly interesting. [popcorn]
Just add Judges and you'll have a dystopian sci-fi movie. Where's ma-ma when you need her?
Chris
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"I am leaving it as I found it. Take over. It's yours." >:D
Actually I was thinking of the Peoples State of Mexico's treatment of Francisco d'Anconia more than that of Ellis Wyatt. But glad to see I wasn't the only person thinking along the same vein.
As I recall Venezuela stole, err sorry, nationalized 11 U.S. owned (Helmerich and Payne) oil rigs when the company turned off the spigot when the state oil company fell behind on it's bills (to the tune of $114 Million). They're still mired in their lawsuit against Venezuela to get their stuff back. Personally, I think they should have capped the wells and scuttled the platforms on the way out.
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As I recall Venezuela stole, err sorry, nationalized 11 U.S. owned (Helmerich and Payne) oil rigs when the company turned off the spigot when the state oil company fell behind on it's bills (to the tune of $114 Million). They're still mired in their lawsuit against Venezuela to get their stuff back. Personally, I think they should have capped the wells and scuttled the platforms on the way out.
I thought the same thing- or better yet, light them on fire on the way out.
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As I recall Venezuela stole, err sorry, nationalized 11 U.S. owned (Helmerich and Payne) oil rigs when the company turned off the spigot when the state oil company fell behind on it's bills (to the tune of $114 Million). They're still mired in their lawsuit against Venezuela to get their stuff back. Personally, I think they should have capped the wells and scuttled the platforms on the way out.
I'm good with calling that an act of war, personally.
Should have sent some destroyers and subs to sink any Venezualan ships that came near the rigs.
"Nationalizing" something that doesn't even fly your flag is theft from another country.
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It's nice of The State to "permit" enterprise zones, isn't it? So charitable. Of course they are desperate and need revenues. But the real power remains where it was.
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It's nice of The State to "permit" enterprise zones, isn't it? So charitable. Of course they are desperate and need revenues. But the real power remains where it was.
That's why the cities ought to procure nuclear weapons the first thing they do :laugh:.
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That's why the cities ought to procure nuclear weapons the first thing they do :laugh:.
Or perhaps pre-sight all the major infrastructure and buildings for demolition charges? Nah, the nukes sound funner. Convert a few AIR-2 Genie's to surface-to-surface fire mode and mount them on the tallest building. Nothing quite says "get off my lawn!" like a 1.5KT rocket propelled nuke.
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Or perhaps pre-sight all the major infrastructure and buildings for demolition charges? Nah, the nukes sound funner. Convert a few AIR-2 Genie's to surface-to-surface fire mode and mount them on the tallest building. Nothing quite says "get off my lawn!" like a 1.5KT rocket propelled nuke.
Even better, just set up a "Project Pluto" style nuclear ramjet, but instead of making it into a cruise missle/bomber, just put it on a really big pylon so it can spin around like an air-raid siren.
That would be cool. =D
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If enough people move there and many just have rifles I think even an untrained bunch of highly-irregulars could hold off the mighty, world-shaking beast that is the Honduran military.
Also, insurance companies may come into play if enough people take out policies against a takeover then whatever companies issued the policies might step in with negotiation and or professional physical adjudicators to mollify the situation.
There is precedent as in the ACW numerous insurance companies banded together to raise forces to keep NYC safe from Confederate actions.
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If enough people move there and many just have rifles I think even an untrained bunch of highly-irregulars could hold off the mighty, world-shaking beast that is the Honduran military.
Also, insurance companies may come into play if enough people take out policies against a takeover then whatever companies issued the policies might step in with negotiation and or professional physical adjudicators to mollify the situation.
There is precedent as in the ACW numerous insurance companies banded together to raise forces to keep NYC safe from Confederate actions.
"If we can't have it, no one can!" *Cue Honduran artillery and rocket barrage.*
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*Cue Honduran artillery and rocket barrage.*
Would that be a slingshot and a couple of Estes model rockets? RocketMan can put up a much better barrage!
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Would that be a slingshot and a couple of Estes model rockets? RocketMan can put up a much better barrage!
Without breaking out Jane's...... we're talking roughly:
90 - 120mm Mortar
30 - 160mm Mortar
44 - Towed 105mm Howitzer
~8 - Towed 155mm Howitzer
and about a dozen respectable jet fighters/attackers (F-5E/F model Tiger II's).
More than enough to ruin a city-goers day.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Honduras
20,000 active personnel ain't going to get it done. Even if they have a 1-1 tooth to tail ratio that still leaves only 10,000 combat troops. And the ratio is probably higher than that. At best they might have 5,000 combat arms types. Also listed are 22 light tanks, and 72 armored cars.
Now imagine a new city that has attracted 100,000 or more people, can you imagine a scenario where such a small force with no heavy armor can push in a take the city against even untrained irregulars? Maybe US troops or Russians or Brits would have a chance but a banana republic military? No.
And they don't quite have the number of tubes it would take to level the place before they got sallied upon and lost them.
Finally, the commanders would likely be quite happy taking payoffs to not do anything. And in the time the city may be big enough to forgo having to pay any protection money.
Another way to protect themselves is to invite many diplomatic missions into the city and give them land (which becomes officially part of the home country) along the likely avenues of attack or shelling. That way, in order to attack the city the Hondurans would have to attack through mini Germany, France, China, Japan, Brazil etc. All of whom could deal out consequences to the Hondurans. Maybe military, maybe economic, maybe diplomatic but none of it good news for the aggressors.
All this said, Honduras would not be my first choice for such a scheme. Costa Rica or Belize in that region would rate higher, but you take your shot where you can, of course.
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Costa Rica is supposed to be nice and I think they already have a sizable American expat community there.
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Now imagine a new city that has attracted 100,000 or more people, can you imagine a scenario where such a small force with no heavy armor can push in a take the city against even untrained irregulars? Maybe US troops or Russians or Brits would have a chance but a banana republic military? No.
Reading comprehension much? I didn't say "capture," I said "destroy." You don't need a lot of people to shell someplace into a pile of rubble.
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Yes, but destroying it gets the Honduran .gov bupkus except for a a pile of shell shipping canisters and a pile of rubble which does kind of defeat the whole purpose of the exercise. But then .gov's have never made much sense to begin with.
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LOL reading comprehension. Did you miss the very next sentence?
And they don't quite have the number of tubes it would take to level the place before they got sallied upon and lost them.
And that's with a town "militia" of uncertain quality. If they have the foresight to have other security arrangements then the Hondurans have no chance of doing serious harm.
And if the city sees a lot, as in a million or so, people move there then the Honduras government might have to pay protection money to the people who own the city.
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If they become mildly wealthy city states, why couldn't they hire mercenaries to augment any militia?
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If they become mildly wealthy city states, why couldn't they hire mercenaries to augment any militia?
Executive Outcomes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Outcomes) Pretty sad too considering they were doing a damned good job in Sierra Leone and Angola. Far better than the UN ever managed and for a fraction the cost. =|
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I was thinking more Hong Kong before the handover to the Chinese.
Me too.
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It's nice of The State to "permit" enterprise zones, isn't it? So charitable. Of course they are desperate and need revenues. But the real power remains where it was.
This right here. In the end the Honduran govt is the one who holds the power to strangle the "city state". They don't have a particularly large military but, it's large enough to make life extremely hard for said city state.
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Think about it. Sell the land. You then have investors using local labor to build.
As a government charge a low tax rate as military protection.
Leave the city-state to police itself as a free economic zone.
Profit.
Honduras has no incentive to give them a hard time.
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Kinda reminds me of the Corporate Sector Authority mentioned in Brian Daley's Han Solo novels.....
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Corporate_Sector_Authority
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I can't gather it in me to care. Sure, people will make money, and economic freedoms are very important but I am not a libertarian because of the low taxes.
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JJ nailed it.
I don't remember where I read it but these cities are starting out huge. It's not going to e a case of a trading post turning into a settlement that turns into a village that turns into a town, then a city, then a metropolis. They will start as large cities/metropoli and as such once a million or so folks move in the Honduran military will be impotent.
First, the top guys will have money invested.
Second, family members of the troops are likely to be moving there.
Third, any violence will probably get the perpetrators and indictment in the World Court or even in the sovereign courts of whatever nationality of person is harmed or killed. Or maybe, if it is true that the London Court (or whatever it is called) is going to be in charge of jurisprudence means that a malefactor will have at least Britain coming after them in addition to whatever other angry countries there might be.
This is a very well connected world now. Where will the person that gives the order to launch rockets or bombs at innocent folks going to hide?
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Think about it. Sell the land. You then have investors using local labor to build.
As a government charge a low tax rate as military protection.
Leave the city-state to police itself as a free economic zone.
Profit.
Honduras has no incentive to give them a hard time.
Venezuela.
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Update:
Lawyer representing the indigenous folks where these cities will be cited, shot dead at a freaking wedding. 5 shots.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/honduras-human-rights-lawyer-who-opposed-private-cities-murdered/2012/09/23/059ff77a-05a5-11e2-9eea-333857f6a7bd_print.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMgp97cODCA#t=2m40s
"De rodillas, hijo de la chingada!"
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Sure, people will make money, and economic freedoms are very important but I am not a libertarian because of the low taxes.
Could you clarify this sentence?
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The people who will own these cities probably already "own" the Honduran Government and some international institutions.
If you are an Owner it's a dream come true. If you are a Guest, you will do well if you play your cards right. If you are a servant, well, keep your head down and hope that the masters aren't deranged.
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Could you clarify this sentence?
I believe I am clear.
What will likely happen is that the cities will have lower taxes and regulations, but Honduran authority will be kept with things like gun laws, drug laws, whatnot.
I am not a libertarian because I want to pay less taxes. I am a libertarian because I want to buy guns and do nootropic drugs.
There are plenty of countries that have lower taxes and less business regulations than the US and yet you would never consider moving there.