Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AmbulanceDriver on September 26, 2012, 11:59:34 PM
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So one of the things I'd like to do in our home is rewire. The electrical is the flower of 1969 technology, and I've found a couple of different "stupid homeowner tricks" already, so I wanna try to get things done properly.
So just for kicks and giggles, I went to the county website to figure out what we'd be looking at as far as the electrical permit....
Holy crap!!! :O Right around $1000 just for the [censored] electrical permit!
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Do you actually need a permit to replace circuits for like in kind as the home owner?
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So one of the things I'd like to do in our home is rewire. The electrical is the flower of 1969 technology, and I've found a couple of different "stupid homeowner tricks" already, so I wanna try to get things done properly.
So just for kicks and giggles, I went to the county website to figure out what we'd be looking at as far as the electrical permit....
Holy crap!!! :O Right around $1000 just for the [censored] electrical permit!
Look for the words. "nessacary emergency repairs and replacements"
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Do you actually need a permit to replace circuits for like in kind as the home owner?
This.
I'm not used to the homeowner needing a permit in this area.
jim
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Well, since we're gonna replace everything from the service mast to the outlets, and we have to have an electrician to do the live stuff, and well, they're kinda sticklers about that whole permit thing......
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You don't have a cousin-in-law or something that's an electrican?
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Well, since we're gonna replace everything from the service mast to the outlets, and we have to have an electrician to do the live stuff, and well, they're kinda sticklers about that whole permit thing......
Only thing you need an electrician for is the stuff between the panel and the meter head. Anything before the meter head is on the service to take care of. Anything panel or after is on you, and can be replaced like in kind sans permit. Unless Oregon is way, way different than WA.
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Only thing you need an electrician for is the stuff between the panel and the meter head.
That.
You can buy books that will illustrate how to wire your house from Home Depot.
You can download electrical code documents from the internetz.
I have a real bitter cynical outlook on the whole permit/inspection racket and am very adverse to allowing any agent of the .gov into my house without a warrant.
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Only thing you need an electrician for is the stuff between the panel and the meter head. Anything before the meter head is on the service to take care of. Anything panel or after is on you, and can be replaced like in kind sans permit. Unless Oregon is way, way different than WA.
This. Mount the new box next to the old one and install a pair of breakers big enough to run to the old box, pay them to run service to the new box and run the old box off those two breakers. Once it's inspected, you can run lines to the new box at your leisure. Get at least 200 amp service.
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I have a real bitter cynical outlook on the whole permit/inspection racket and am very adverse to allowing any agent of the .gov into my house without a warrant.
This. Unless what I'm doing will be visible from the street, I'm not giving the .gov money to make improvements to my own home. Passive resistance.
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Do you actually need a permit to replace circuits for like in kind as the home owner?
Unless you're in an area that doesn't have an electrical code (and that's just about nowhere, these days), ALL electrical work requires a permit. A homeowner is usually allowed to perform his/her own work, but it still requires a permit and has to comply with the code. Basically, a permit is required to do anything more than changing a light bulb -- even replacing one receptacle requires a permit.
Emergency repairs? You make the emergency repair, then take out the permit the next day and have the repair inspected. Emergency means "emergency," as in "if I don't fix this in the next five minutes, she's gonna melt down." It doesn't mean "I'd really prefer not to pay for a permit." Completely rewiring a house is NOT an emergency repair.
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I have a real bitter cynical outlook on the whole permit/inspection racket and am very adverse to allowing any agent of the .gov into my house without a warrant.
Be cynical to your heart's content, but don't call building inspection a "racket." I am a building inspector, and I've seen electrical work done by licensed electricians that could kill someone. What homeowners do when we don't know about it is terrifying. If the department I worked for is typical (and I suspect it is), the permit fees we charge don't even cover the cost of running the department. Our fee schedule gets updated maybe every five years, and that just brings it current. For the next four years we're basically losing ground, unless a few people take out permit sof VERY expensive houses and the permit income rises by enough to cover inflation.
It's not a racket. Certainly, there are a few inspectors out there who are on a power trip, and a few who should have retired a decade ago. For the most part, all we want to do is be sure the work is done correctly and safely. Even most of the "bad" inspectors have that as their intent -- they just like to use their own rules for what's "safe" rather than follow a code book wrotten by a bunch of people they've never met.
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This. Unless what I'm doing will be visible from the street, I'm not giving the .gov money to make improvements to my own home. Passive resistance.
I'll be damned if I'll pay the goobermint to beg permission to work on my own house.
Whether it be electrical, plumbing or structural, If I can do it myself I will.
I did or redid what the previous owner had screwed upwith the plumbing on my house, I've added 2 220 ckt and 3 110 ckts inside the house.
I had a 1500 sq ft shop built. The electric CoOp came and set me a new pole and meter and I wired the entire shop including 220 and 110 ckts from the pole in.
I never paid a dime for permits or inspections.
The only .gov employee that has ever asked me anything about any of it was the gorram county tax assessor and that was only because he could see the shop from the county road.
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Hawk, I generally tend to agree with what you're saying. I honestly don't have a huge problem with the fact of the permit itself, at least from the viewpoint of stupid homeowner tricks, it just nearly gave me a heart attack when I started adding it all up. And yeah, those scary things that you've seen are exactly why I want to rewire this place. Things like the blind junction behind the sheetrock in the family room that was just wire nuts and electrical tape. On a 220v line. W/ no ground (yes, I know that technically the neutral is bonded to ground - there just wasn't a separate ground wire). Yup, apparently there are some instances where you can run 12-3 with no ground for 220. Or at least that's what they did anyways. The way it was done, I'm guessing that it was originally for one of those cadet forced air heaters, and then they decided to do a baseboard heater instead, so they did a blind junction behind the wall and then just sheetrocked over it. Well, they never did install the heater, so there was just a loop of romex sticking out of the baseboard with electrical tape covering the tip off (where it had been shoved back into the wall). Imagine my shock when my father in law put his non-contact voltmeter up to it and it started beeping....
However, when we built our bay window out, we also did it the legal route and took out a permit. The inspections were an absolute joke. For the structural inspection, the inspector came out here, glanced at it for *maybe* 2 seconds, and handed me the "passed" slip. The insulation/wallboard was even worse, if you can believe it. Our final was probably the most ridiculous, the guy didn't even get out of his truck.
When my parents rewired their house (different county), their electrical inspection was pretty much the same thing. Inspector came in, picked 1 plug, put one of those "3 light" wiring testers into it, flipped a couple light switches, and called it good. Didn't even take the cover off the panel to inspect any of the wiring in there.
So while I respect the reasoning behind it, and appreciate that your'e one of the good guys, my two experiences with the permitting process have left a less than reassuring feeling about the "inspections".
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Be cynical to your heart's content, but don't call building inspection a "racket." I am a building inspector, and I've seen electrical work done by licensed electricians that could kill someone.
Me too. In my own house. After it passed inspection by the city so an ocupancy permit could be issued.
The worst possible house you could buy will be built to code.
In my village it absolutely is a racket. My house was built in 2000, in the midst of the housing boom. There were probably a thousand houses going up in my village in any given year. A few years after moving in I started looking to finish my basement and found all kinds of problems.
1. There were no sill plates on top of the foundation- the floor joists simply connected to a 'rim joist' and sat on top of the foundation there were huge gaps where I could see sunlight.
2. The wiring was terrible. I found lots of loose wires and receptacles mismatched to the circuits.
3. I called the city inspector's office and specificaly asked him about the rim joist- he told me that they accepted that method but didn't as of 2 years after my house was built. My impression was that they let pretty much everything and anything go as two large subdivisions were built up inside the village, then tightened up restrictions to cover their butts later. The permitting system was simply a way to get their cut of money off the new construction.
Edit: I'm sure inspectin
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Edit above: I'm sure not all municipalities are equally bad to my own, but in my case, I choose to opt out when possible.
I get that not all builders/do-it yourselfers aren't equally competent or ethical either.
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On top of everything else, the "building permit" cost in the county that we left in Colorado included prepayment of the local sales taxes on an estimate of all your building materials.
IOW, you were required to buy all your materials locally instead of a hundred miles away where they would be far cheaper, or else pay the sales taxes locally as if you did. If you did have the materials trucked in, then you had to pay sales taxes for both counties.
>:D
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Unless you're in an area that doesn't have an electrical code (and that's just about nowhere, these days), ALL electrical work requires a permit. A homeowner is usually allowed to perform his/her own work, but it still requires a permit and has to comply with the code. Basically, a permit is required to do anything more than changing a light bulb -- even replacing one receptacle requires a permit.
What an absolute fascist nightmare. "Sure you own this. But you can't do anything to it without Big Daddy Government taking your money and looking over your shoulder to protect you from yourself."
Here's a question: when done incorrectly, is faulty handloading, firearms modification, or vehicle repair work less dangerous than faulty electrical work in a house? Do you support having to beg for .gov approval every time you want to reload or replace the brakes on your car?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Never a dull moment around here.
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The most awful houses I've lived in or visited were not merely built to code - they were built by the government.
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The most awful houses I've lived in or visited were not merely built to code - they were built by the government.
Military barracks come to mind.
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Well, since we're gonna replace everything from the service mast to the outlets, and we have to have an electrician to do the live stuff, and well, they're kinda sticklers about that whole permit thing......
what make is your breaker box, and how many amp is it? i am assuming it is less than 200 if you are going this route, as most wiring from 1969 is decent. where we are, direct replacement of individual breakers and circuits does not require a permit. replacing the meter pan, mast, main panel or adding circuits will.
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Military barracks come to mind.
Oh, do they ever!
My dad added on a room on their house on the coast of Florida. The inspectors there were the real deal. Did their job, knowledgeable, and thorough. Same thing in eastern Iowa, they made sure it was squared away.
Where I live now they want a permit for everything. Well, if it can be seen from the street, I jump through the hoop. If not, I don't. My house was built in 1959 and everything I have done beats the heck out of those standards, except that they used redwood on all my framing & roofing.
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In Minnesota, we work with State electrical inspectors. The County and City inspectors try to get involved but we can properly and legally tell them to urinate off. There are no city or county electrical codes; only state.
I doubt a building permit is required here, and I certainly wouldn't get one. For technical stuff I may hire an electrician but more likely, I'd have one come look at it after I finished, to see if it will pass the inspection. I often ask for advice from a master electrician that I see at my job.
jb
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Go off grid.
Shut off your electric and live like a 15th century French peasant.
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I had a 1500 sq ft shop built. The electric CoOp came and set me a new pole and meter and I wired the entire shop including 220 and 110 ckts from the pole in.
I never paid a dime for permits or inspections.
Regional differences. In this state, the electric company will not energize a meter without a sign-off by the municipal building inspector.
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You should be ashamed of yourself.
Why? I didn't write the law. Don't blame me for doing a job that State law requires, and doing it honestly to the best of my knowledge and ability.
And I feel reasonably certain that my inspections have prevented at least two almost certain electrocutions. I can live with myself over that.
What I'm amazed at in Ambulance Driver's case is the amount of the permit fee. $1,000 as the FEE for a permit to rewire is insane. Under our permit fee schedule, a $1,000 fee will get you the permit to build a house costing $85,000. What's a rewire job worth, maybe $5,000? Our fee would be 73 bucks.
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Why? I didn't write the law. Don't blame me for doing a job that State law requires, and doing it honestly to the best of my knowledge and ability.
And I feel reasonable certain that my inspections have prevented at least two almost certain electrocutions. I can live with myself over that.
"I was just following orders" is never an acceptable excuse. Depriving people of their rights (and "It's my property I can do what I want with it" is a pretty basic right) is not ok, even when the State passes a law requiring it.
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Balog, I don't quite see it as "depriving people of their rights". For one, unless your mortgage is paid off, it's not actually *your* property. Until the note is paid, it's the bank's property. And while you may be perfectly capable and competent to do everything from electrical to plumbing to structural, not everyone is. Like I said, I've found more than my fair share of "stupid homeowner tricks" on this house already. I can guarantee you that none of those were permitted. Finally, the permit/inspection process is *supposed* to prove to the eventual buyer of your house that everything in there is to code when it was built.
Trust me, I'm not a huge fan of the process. But I do see where it might be necessary.
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Balog, I don't quite see it as "depriving people of their rights". For one, unless your mortgage is paid off, it's not actually *your* property. Until the note is paid, it's the bank's property. And while you may be perfectly capable and competent to do everything from electrical to plumbing to structural, not everyone is. Like I said, I've found more than my fair share of "stupid homeowner tricks" on this house already. I can guarantee you that none of those were permitted. Finally, the permit/inspection process is *supposed* to prove to the eventual buyer of your house that everything in there is to code when it was built.
Trust me, I'm not a huge fan of the process. But I do see where it might be necessary.
Some people aren't competent to own guns. Should they need permits to do so? Some people aren't competent to cook in a sanitary way. Should everyone need to get permits and pass health inspections like a restaurant?
If the buyer wants to make sure it's been done well, they can hire an inspector. And that "it actually belongs to the bank" thing is utter BS. Finally, do you approve of this in all areas? You want the .gov to have to grant you permission before you can do repairs on your car? What about something like handloading, you ok with needing to beg for permission to do that?
If you don't see the need to beg the .gov for permission to do what you want on your own damn possessions as a violation of rights, then we have very different beliefs about property rights.
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I'm with AD.
There is a fine line between reasonable and unreasonable in this area. An inspector taking a look and signing off that the work is done correctly is one thing, but some areas are draconian.
There's things a home inspector isn't going to be able to see or find and these need to be seen before they're covered up.
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around here no permits for "bonafide agricultural use" hypothetically there might be a 120x60 foot shop with 2 60 x40 additions. and 1 400 watt service ans a second 3 phase. out there in the country under those auspices. and ironically the county came out measured it and charges him taxes on it.
during the bldg boom here they did "drive by" inspections.
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I really do get what you are saying. And you're right. Some people *aren't* competent to own guns. The list is pretty specific, in fact:
Under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
who is a fugitive from justice;
who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
who is an illegal alien;
who has been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions;
who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;
who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or
who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (enacted by the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act of 1997, Pub. L. No. 104-208, effective September 30, 1996). 18 USC 922(g) and (n).
Are you saying we should lift all gov't restrictions and allow these people to own guns? Because clearly we're violating their property rights by not allowing them to own guns. Oh, and if you've ever bought a firearm from a licensed dealer, you *have* asked the gov't for permission. Or did you not fill out a 4473, or go through a NICS check?
Oh, and not cooking in a sanitary way is often times self-correcting. Or will be, eventually. There's only so many times your body can handle salmonella, e. coli, etc. Not *really* related to whether or not my house burns down because I thought I knew how to wire an outlet for my dryer.
And why is "it actually belongs to the bank" utter BS? If you are carrying a mortgage, you do NOT in fact own your home free and clear, and frankly, thinking about it, I'd actually be surprised if buried in the mortgage contract somewhere there isn't a clause that states that all improvements must be done by a contractor, w/ permits, inspections, etc.....
And if my house catches on fire, then I not only put myself and my family at risk, but I also put the firefighters at risk, as well as my neighbors homes.
I assume then that you'll be championing the drive to revoke the need for driver's licenses, as clearly you shouldn't need to get permission from the gov't to use your possession (your car) as you see fit? And how dare the gov't tell you how fast you can drive???
Hell, why should foreigners need to get permission from the gov't to come into the country???? Throw open the borders man!
Again. I don't like the fact that I'm supposed to get a permit to work on my house. But I understand the need for it.
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I pulled an building, plumbing, electrical and fire permit in my town for the partial finish off of the basement.
It was 400 some bucks. I plan on doing more of the basement latter. I will not be getting another permit.
The partially finished basement will still be a partially finnished basement in the future so no one should be wiser if we were to sell down the road.
I'm replacing the current 20 space 200 amp panel, with a 40 space. Adding a 100 amp sub to the basement. Some lights and outlets.
The only thing that really pissed me off was the charge for the separate fire protection permit. I'm adding hard wired smoke detectors to the basement and the original house. This is not required by code. I could have just stuck up a battery one in the basement. I would have thought it would have been part of the electrical permit. I guess not. There actually was no spot on the electrical permit for it so I wrote it in one of the blank spots. Nope you need a separate one. Of course why did I not realize that, they are electrical after all. Its not like I put them on the plumbing permit. ???
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Some people aren't competent to own guns. Should they need permits to do so? Some people aren't competent to cook in a sanitary way. Should everyone need to get permits and pass health inspections like a restaurant?
Straw man argument alert.
The Bill of Rights does not include any provision guaranteeing to the People the right to perform their own home alterations without government oversight.
Take your argument to the limit: How likely would you be to choose a doctor who isn't licensed by your state? Or maybe who never went to medical school or even took high school biology?
How happy would you be driving across a major bridge if the person who designed it wasn't trained and licensed as an engineer?
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What I'm amazed at in Ambulance Driver's case is the amount of the permit fee. $1,000 as the FEE for a permit to rewire is insane. Under our permit fee schedule, a $1,000 fee will get you the permit to build a house costing $85,000. What's a rewire job worth, maybe $5,000? Our fee would be 73 bucks.
When I finished my basement I downloaded the village's fee/permit worksheet and filled it out.
The total cost for permits would have been around $560, plus I would have needed to submit a detailed schematic of the changes I intended to make along with a detailed wiring diagram.
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When I was growing up in Chicago, they really didn't want people working on their own homes - they wanted you to hire union electricians, union plumbers, union plasterers, etc., and get permits for EVERYTHING, even the simple change-out of a lighting fixture. (If you did the work yourself, it was supposed to be "under the supervision" of a union goon.)
Quite simply, if work was being done inside . . . these rules and permit requirements were simply ignored. My Dad and I did quite a bit of interior work in our home, and I assure you, we did not do shoddy work.
An aunt and uncle built their own home in what was at the time a pretty rural suburb (not subject to Chicago-type permits and restrictions) and they had a few run-ins with union types who wanted them to hire union workers rather than do the work themselves. I understand my uncle was pretty . . . blunt . . . in his response.
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Straw man argument alert.
The Bill of Rights does not include any provision guaranteeing to the People the right to perform their own home alterations without government oversight.
Take your argument to the limit: How likely would you be to choose a doctor who isn't licensed by your state? Or maybe who never went to medical school or even took high school biology?
How happy would you be driving across a major bridge if the person who designed it wasn't trained and licensed as an engineer?
just because someone holds a piece of paper doesn't mean i will trust my life to them . if any of the above were recognized for doing good work, i wouldn't care who licensed them (or didn't). (i also recognize that the people holding the papers are more likely to do a decent job)
i have always felt that the inspection process is more to protect the future homeowner than the current one. (natural selection is a fine thing)
i also agree the fee is excessive. around here it would be a $50 permit, and a $100 inspection.
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When I lived in Utah and finished out our basement, it was like a $40 permit. No biggie. But it took 3 trips of being given the run around on the forms I needed. They were nice, just incompetent. On the third trip one of the inspectors was in there and he was like wait wait wait....no he doesn't need this and that. Private subcontracting and DIY only needed like one *expletive deleted* form and he even said to me "you can throw your dimensions and information on a bar napkin for all I care", and then wrote down a list of common failures and some tips on how to do a few things.
But the office itself was a cluster *expletive deleted*.
PS
I am against permitting. Just sharing my experience with it.
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my town used to be sensible. now they wanna be fairfax. its a revenue stream multiple streams
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its a revenue stream multiple streams
We have a winner!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Straw man argument alert.
The Bill of Rights does not include any provision guaranteeing to the People the right to perform their own home alterations without government oversight.
It does not include any provision guaranteein to the People the right to choose their own spouses.
Let us now ban interracial marriage forthwith.
Take your argument to the limit: How likely would you be to choose a doctor who isn't licensed by your state? Or maybe who never went to medical school or even took high school biology?
How happy would you be driving across a major bridge if the person who designed it wasn't trained and licensed as an engineer?
Bridges are typically built with taxpayer money.
They are not a relevant comparison. Clearly the government has the power of choosing who it pays money to.
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How likely would you be to choose a doctor who isn't licensed by your state?
Totally non-relevant comparison.
More relevant would be the state requiring a doctor visit to get a bandaid or an aspirin =(
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???
""I was just following orders" is never an acceptable excuse. Depriving people of their rights (and "It's my property I can do what I want with it" is a pretty basic right) is not ok, even when the State passes a law requiring it."
Holy crap, over the top much?
Quick, everyone rally to George Washington Balog! He will lead us to freedom!
*expletive deleted* drama queens...
"i have always felt that the inspection process is more to protect the future homeowner than the current one."
There ya go.
It's also to offer at least some modicum of protection to your neighbors if you live in a multiplex condo or townhouse.
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My guess is the 1K estimate is high. You might want to make a call and get a more realistic estimation of the permit fee.
Every time I've looked up permit fees I always get discouraged by what they have on the website.
As far as us owning our property. There is no such thing.
Sure pay off your mortgage and you "own it" Then try seeing what happens to your property if you don't pay the property tax.
None of us truly own our property. It's being rented/leased from the state/county
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Sure pay off your mortgage and you "own it" Then try seeing what happens to your property if you don't pay the property tax.
Worse- try not paying a HOA fee.
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Worse- try not paying a HOA fee.
Many states have taken away the HOA power of foreclosure.
And bitch bitch bitch about it, we've covered this a billion times.
YOU VOLUNTARILY MOVE INTO AN HOA NEIGHBORHOOD. IT IS A FREEMARKET DECISION BETWEEN THE PURCHASER AND THE DEVELOPER.
Optional optional optional. You do not have to buy a house in a *expletive deleted*ing HOA. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to make that decision.
Anyone who can't see that is an idiot.
:facepalm:
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Bwahahahah!
Just thought I'd troll. :rofl:
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AD: so in your mind "felons can't own guns" and "anyone that owns a house has to beg for permission to work on it" are equivalent? Really?
Mike: thanks for the helpful and polite commentary. Have fun groveling for permission to do what you want with your own property, always nice to see someone who really needs the government to hold their little hands and protect them from themselves.
Hawkmoon: how about you address my argument? Can the State make you ask for permission before working on your car? Should you have to ask permission and pay a fee and have the setup inspected before you can reload?
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Go off grid.
Shut off your electric and live like a 15th century French peasant.
Don't have to go that far. Just get a meter on a utility pole with a single breaker and a NEMA 6-50 outdoor receptacle. That's the only thing that needs a permit/inspection. You run your entire house off a cord and plug, and it's out of their scope (the house is just a temporary appliance, not unlike a toaster)
Maybe 2 receptacles; one for the house and one for the garage/workshop/barn/whatever outbuilding.
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AD: so in your mind "felons can't own guns" and "anyone that owns a house has to beg for permission to work on it" are equivalent? Really?
Mike: thanks for the helpful and polite commentary. Have fun groveling for permission to do what you want with your own property, always nice to see someone who really needs the government to hold their little hands and protect them from themselves.
Hawkmoon: how about you address my argument? Can the State make you ask for permission before working on your car? Should you have to ask permission and pay a fee and have the setup inspected before you can reload?
Again, if you have ever bought a firearm from an FFL, then you too have "begged permission" from the gov't to own it. I mean yes, you have the option of a face to face transaction, but even then, you have to follow the law (oh no, gotta stick within the boundaries of what the gov't gives you permission to do!) and be fortunate enough to find someone selling whatever gun you want to buy.
Now, how about you address my question? Why is "you don't own it until it's paid off" "utter BS"? Until the mortgage is paid off, whoever owns the mortgage note has a legal financial interest in the property. They may or may not be listed on the title, but until you fulfill your part of the contract (pay off the mortgage), they are part owners of the property.
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Again, if you have ever bought a firearm from an FFL, then you too have "begged permission" from the gov't to own it. I mean yes, you have the option of a face to face transaction, but even then, you have to follow the law (oh no, gotta stick within the boundaries of what the gov't gives you permission to do!) and be fortunate enough to find someone selling whatever gun you want to buy.
Now, how about you address my question? Why is "you don't own it until it's paid off" "utter BS"? Until the mortgage is paid off, whoever owns the mortgage note has a legal financial interest in the property. They may or may not be listed on the title, but until you fulfill your part of the contract (pay off the mortgage), they are part owners of the property.
Transfer of ownership is not the same as doing what you wish with property you own. You do grok the difference, yes?
Do you own a car if there is a note against it? Do you own anything if it was paid for via credit card with an outstanding balance? If the bank is the rightful owner of the property, do they have rights to do with it as they wish? And in the end, why does a private contract between you and a bank (which may or may not be applicable since mortgages are not universal) have any bearing on what the .gov does? Is your local .gov the enforcement arm of your bank, working to make sure you don't devalue their assets?
So, just so I'm clear, you're ok with needing .gov permission to work on your own car, and needing a .gov inspector to approve your reloading setup right? If you had to pull a permit and get an inspection to work on your brakes, that's totally cool yes? If not, why is that different from electrical work?
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In this thread. Idiots arguing semantics
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In this thread. Idiots arguing semantics
Not to mention the personal attacks... ;/
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Guilty.
Calm down.
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I was intentionally being an ass. Was a joke
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I think property owners vs local governing bodies discussions brings out the worst in a lot of people, I certainly threw my share of fuel on that fire.
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Are you saying we should lift all gov't restrictions and allow these people to own guns? Because clearly we're violating their property rights by not allowing them to own guns. Oh, and if you've ever bought a firearm from a licensed dealer, you *have* asked the gov't for permission. Or did you not fill out a 4473, or go through a NICS check
Well, yes, you are right, we should.
Or at least most of them.
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Sometimes, when all is right between me, myself, and I, this stuff can glide by without me thinking I have to comment.
Other days, when I'm lucky, the thread gets closed down before I get here.
A bad day has me trying to be snide and convincing you all that someone is an ass.
Just like electrical work, it's all about a man knowing his limits.
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The bank does not own your house, they have a lien on it. There is a very large difference. If they owned your house they could walk in and out as they pleased and do with what they pleased. I've yet to come home one day and see an officer from the USDA making a sandwich in my kitchen despite the lien they hold on my house.
Not seeing the need to do something is also not the same as being unwilling do so when required. As well thumbing your nose at the local permit office is far less likely to result in you being shot or serving decades in prison as thumbing your nose at the ATF is.
Permits are a revenue stream for government with the window dressing of public safety.
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Sometimes, when all is right between me, myself, and I, this stuff can glide by without me thinking I have to comment.
Other days, when I'm lucky, the thread gets closed down before I get here.
A bad day has me trying to be snide and convincing you all that someone is an ass.
Just like electrical work, it's all about a man knowing his limits.
I have stepped out for a day or two, came back, and been surprised/disappointed at what I posted. We all have our bad days.
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Permits are a revenue stream for government with the window dressing of public safety.
Not true in my state. I would guess that fewer than one-third of the departments, statewide, bring in enough in permit fees to actually cover the cost of running the department. There was one suburban town about five years ago that publicly stated an intent to raise fees (by a HUGE amount, like on the order of 200 percent) without adding any staff or equipment to the building inspection department. They were clear that the intent was to turn it into a profit center. The residents (taxpayers) were equally clear that they wanted no part of it.
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Hawkmoon: how about you address my argument? Can the State make you ask for permission before working on your car?
Yes, they can. My state doesn't, but they can.
Should you have to ask permission and pay a fee and have the setup inspected before you can reload?
If personal reloading reaches a point where significant numbers (and it would be up to a legislature to determine what they think a "significant" number is) of people are being injured by home reloaders, then it could certainly be argued that the state should regulate who can do so. Before you start screaming at me again, remember that there is no "right of the People to load ammunition at home" in the 2nd Amendment. The 2A does say that the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, and even in the face of that we have people who are regular members of PRO-gun forums who advocate mandatory training and testing before issuing a carry permit. (I am not one of those advocates, for the record.)
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Not as a question of capabilities, but do you think that would be justified and consistent withimited government? Would you participate?
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Don't have to go that far. Just get a meter on a utility pole with a single breaker and a NEMA 6-50 outdoor receptacle. That's the only thing that needs a permit/inspection. You run your entire house off a cord and plug, and it's out of their scope (the house is just a temporary appliance, not unlike a toaster)
Maybe 2 receptacles; one for the house and one for the garage/workshop/barn/whatever outbuilding.
Not quite, The national electrical code would consider this temporary wiring and is limited to 60-90 days. (don't hold me to the time fram I don't fell like digging out a code book)
So it would have to be disconnected after a given time.
Now if you house has wheels and you move it around every few months you are good.
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Solar ;)
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Solar ;)
Solar falls under the jurisdiction of NEC.
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Building codes and inspections are to hold down insurance company costs. (Reduce claims).
You do risk having a claim denied if they can prove that the work which caused the loss wasn't to code/inspected.
Some places have also used the permitting process as an "Additional Revenue Stream".
And many are filled with petty bureaucrats whose singular joy in life is saying "No". Many are part of said place's "Planning and Zoning" department.
Who shall be among the first up against the wall when the revolution comes....
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Solar falls under the jurisdiction of NEC.
So I reckon that you are still scrood if you live in some town. You'd have to have a bldg permit just to mount the damn panels :facepalm:
Out here in the bush where I live, you can build virtually anything (assuming some defense satellite doesn't raise an alarm :P ) and unless you connect to the grid you don't need a permit for anything.
Well, you're supposed to have a permit for a septic system ... =|
I should ask my neighbor that built an off-grid home a couple miles from here. He has solar power and rain-water collection.
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Only thing you need an electrician for is the stuff between the panel and the meter head. Anything before the meter head is on the service to take care of. Anything panel or after is on you, and can be replaced like in kind sans permit. Unless Oregon is way, way different than WA.
Oregon recently jailed/imprisoned or at least heavily fined and felonied some rancher for collecting rain water and runoff into a pond, the water belongs to the collective said Oregon law.
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So I reckon that you are still scrood if you live in some town. You'd have to have a bldg permit just to mount the damn panels :facepalm:
Out here in the bush where I live, you can build virtually anything (assuming some defense satellite doesn't raise an alarm :P ) and unless you connect to the grid you don't need a permit for anything.
Well, you're supposed to have a permit for a septic system ... =|
I should ask my neighbor that built an off-grid home a couple miles from here. He has solar power and rain-water collection.
out here in the middle of nowhere, the permit inspectors or whomever they are have to drive roughly 300 miles to inspect anything, my friend did all this electrical work to code - they drove up, said "looks great" and never got out of the car! :lol:
most folks out here are off grid and some stuff is overbuilt other stuff is what I like to call "chicken coop tech"
lots of folks out here are supposed to do this and that and don't do either.
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Oregon recently jailed/imprisoned or at least heavily fined and felonied some rancher for collecting rain water and runoff into a pond, the water belongs to the collective said Oregon law.
factually impaired statement
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out here in the middle of nowhere, the permit inspectors or whomever they are have to drive roughly 300 miles to inspect anything, my friend did all this electrical work to code - they drove up, said "looks great" and never got out of the car! :lol:
most folks out here are off grid and some stuff is overbuilt other stuff is what I like to call "chicken coop tech"
lots of folks out here are supposed to do this and that and don't do either.
So they follow the Ron Swanson code?
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"chicken coop tech"
The Monroe "brothers" ? :lol:
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Jamis while I would generally agree with your statement about living in an HOA.
That was until I moved to Las Vegas. Where a majority of the neighborhoods are HOA controlled.
Here you only have the choice of which HOA you will live under. Fortunately we live in an area that only has a community land management HOA.
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Well, yes, you are right, we should.
Or at least most of them.
Agreed.
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The Monroe "brothers" ? :lol:
At first glance, I thought you meant Bill and Charlie, then .... lol
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At first glance, I thought you meant Bill and Charlie, then .... lol
Alf and Ralph ;)
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out here in the middle of nowhere, the permit inspectors or whomever they are have to drive roughly 300 miles to inspect anything, my friend did all this electrical work to code - they drove up, said "looks great" and never got out of the car! :lol:
most folks out here are off grid and some stuff is overbuilt other stuff is what I like to call "chicken coop tech"
lots of folks out here are supposed to do this and that and don't do either.
Driving is a piece of cake.
A decade or so ago I was at a conference with a guy who worked in the Massachusetts office that certifies town building inspectors. Like a number of states, Massachusetts had (and I assume still has) a law requiring some number of hours of annual in-service training to keep the license active. One year, going through their records, they found one inspector who had not been to any in-service training classes -- ever. So they sent him a letter informing him that they were going to de-certify him.
So he called them up and told them to take their license and shove it. "And good luck finding a replacement," he said.
Naturally, they (the state) asked, "Why?" So he told them.
Seems there's a small island (much smaller than Nantucket or Martha's Vineyard) off the coast of Massachusetts. Mostly it houses a Coast Guard station, but there is a small village there, probably occupied mostly by CG dependents and a few lobstermen (which is what this building inspector actually did for a living). He issued maybe two building permits a year, and all for single family houses (Coast Guard buildings being exempt from the state code). The guy explained to them that in order for him to attend one of their classes, he would have to leave home at about 4:00 a.m., take an hour and a half boat ride to the mainland (weather permitting), rent a car, drive to wherever the class was being held, return the rental car, and then take the boat ride back to the island. If he was lucky, he might get home by late evening. All to attend classes about things he would never, ever see on Cuttyhunk Island.
In a momentary attack of common sense, the department created a special class of license, allowing him to inspect single family houses without attending in-service training.
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"Licensed" electricians do not impress me. I cannot count on the number of times a "licensed" electrician has given me not just bad, but terrible advice, ranging from simply advice that would merely cause property damage (just put a bigger breaker in it to keep the current one from tripping instead of finding what is causing the fault) to advice that would cause severe injury or death (yeah, that 480v box over there that used to power this air handler, it doesn't have anything hooked up to it now that I rerouted the cable, so you can take it off the wall and toss it. That box was live)