Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Balog on October 12, 2012, 06:23:35 PM
-
Pretty much says it all.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.reason.com%2Fmc%2Fmriggs%2F2012_10%2F40Years0fDrugWarFailure.jpg%3Fh%3D298%26amp%3Bw%3D500&hash=06204fd8695104c512620bed46c0517315756eff)
-
But... but... authoritah. You're not respecting it! :police:
-
got a source? that graph has an aroma
-
http://reason.com/blog/2012/10/11/forty-years-of-drug-war-failure-in-a-sin
It was originally part of a larger story, which explains the $1.5trillion. That number isn't accurate for strictly federal spending, but reflects totals costs.
-
it was the number of addicts number i think is factually challenged
-
but his own disclaimer
This graphic was initially not meant to stand on its own but rather illustrate an interviewee’s assertions about the costs and efficacy of drug prohibition. In a tight production schedule, I utilized a data set that I thought most accurately illustrated the nature and growth of the costs of the War on Drugs and that data is US federal drug control spending. But the $1.5 trillion figure, as mentioned by Jack Cole in his interview, accounts for many more costs, including state level costs, prison costs, lost productivity costs due to incarceration and others.
and this
The creator of the chart, documentary filmmaker Matt Groff, Tweeted the following in response to a question about where the $1.5 trillion figure comes from: "Short answer: chart shows only fed drug control, $1.5T refers to all costs assoc. w/ drug prohibition, blog on it shortly."
First off, I take the blame for not seeing the discrepancy. Shame on me.
But here's the funny thing: While the $1.5 trillion figure doesn't correspond to the numbers at right, it's actually low. In 2010, the AP put the 40-year tab of federal drug control spending at $1 trillion. But the massive federal drug control budget--for fiscal year 2013, it'll be $3.7 billion for interdiction, $9.4 billion for law enforcement, and $9.2 billion for early intervention--is actually a pretty small slice of the pie. States and municipalities have their own drug war expenses--investigating, trying, and locking up drug offenders--and those expenses actually dwarf what the federal government spends.
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.N._Me
-
If only you'd show such hard nosed scepticism when cops shoot/beat/raid someone. ;/
The chart is accurate, save the $1.5T figure in the middle.
-
But just think how bad the economy would be without all that spending :lol:
-
If only you'd show such hard nosed scepticism when cops shoot/beat/raid someone. ;/
The chart is accurate, save the $1.5T figure in the middle.
really?
http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/nationwide-trends
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQNHCRdSCOrBhw9Kuu4z8WYej-Bl2h2S8B3Nt03wrqtG-CnByEHFafsCnp2
and in my world that fantasy is not borne out
-
But just think how bad the economy would be without all that spending :lol:
yea its great for the columbian economy and mexican
-
Being Profeshunal cost money.
That is all.
-
http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0749379706000626-gr1.jpg
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/figures%5Cm6101a3f2.gif
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6101a3.htm
-
really?
http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/nationwide-trends
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQNHCRdSCOrBhw9Kuu4z8WYej-Bl2h2S8B3Nt03wrqtG-CnByEHFafsCnp2
and in my world that fantasy is not borne out
1- CSD is intentionally missing the point
2- Looks like CSDs links support the graphic.
1-Explanation: The argument is not related to the absolute rate. The argument is based on the delta-% vs spending $. Spending money has not changed the rate. CSD has not posted anything that disputes this argument, but rather is chasing strawmen.
2-Explanation: Details per CSD's first link
MJ addiction is ~1.36% (4.476/330)
Rx addiction is 0.58%
Coke addition is 0.30%
-
I guess you missed the part where the earnest young man admits he only had good data for 10 out the 40 years?
Ironic thats typical for a reason piece. I call it balkoism
-
I guess you missed the part where the earnest young man admits he only had good data for 10 out the 40 years?
Ironic thats typical for a reason piece. I call it balkoism
For someone who's so full of s### you certainly are high and mighty about cheap character assassination "fact checking." /sigh
I really must stop feeding the trolls. You're going on the "Obama's biography" plan where you're hoping no one reads all the BS you spam and just believes that it in some way relates to your slanderous arguments, aren't you?
-
I guess you missed the part where the earnest young man admits he only had good data for 10 out the 40 years?
Ironic thats typical for a reason piece. I call it balkoism
That's not what he said. He said he couldn't find the data online. Then he cited the source he used. Go find a hard copy.
-
That's not what he said. He said he couldn't find the data online. Then he cited the source he used. Go find a hard copy.
yea the report he cited? started in 96 he swags back to 1970
like i said typical reason piece
first rule to a con is tell the sucker what he wants to hear
-
yea the report he cited? started in 96 he swags back to 1970
like i said typical reason piece
first rule to a con is tell the sucker what he wants to hear
No, he simply used offline resources, specifically the National Survey on Drug Use and Health which has been operating since 1971.
http://www.mattgroff.com/questions-on-the-1315-project-chart/
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED237844&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED237844
The only one making SWAG's around here is you.
-
I really must stop feeding the trolls.
On the tab bar at the top click "profile."
Then under Modify Profile, second link from the bottom, click "Personal Message Options."
This will bring up your ignore list for editting. Add "cassandra and sara's daddy" minus the quotations.
Click "change profile."
Trust me, it makes reading threads like this a lot less aggravating and time consuming.
-
I guess you missed the part where the earnest young man admits he only had good data for 10 out the 40 years?
Ironic thats typical for a reason piece. I call it balkoism
Nice job moving the goal posts after I shot down your counter, it was very smoothly done.
-
...
This will bring up your ignore list for editting. Add "cassandra and sara's daddy" minus the quotations.
...
Ahhh, don't be so fragile. :P
I, for one, welcome CSDs attempts at counter arguing. It keeps the politics place half way honest and sharpens the mind.
-
Ahhh, don't be so fragile. :P
I, for one, welcome CSDs attempts at counter arguing. It keeps the politics place half way honest and sharpens the mind.
If you say so, to me it reeks of intellectually dishonest trolling that just manages to stay just this side of the banschwerk line.
-
If you say so, to me it reeks of intellectually dishonest trolling that just manages to stay just this side of the banschwerk line.
+1
-
If you say so, to me it reeks of intellectually dishonest trolling that just manages to stay just this side of the banschwerk line.
Yeah, I know what you mean sometimes. But its not like some of us don't try to antagonize and bring up this same disagreement over and over again. I mean, for whom do you think the thread title, "A chart for all the drug warriors" is directed at? >:D I think there is only 1 really outspoken drug warrior & pro-police poster on this board. :lol: [popcorn]
-
I think there is only 1 really outspoken drug warrior & pro-police poster on this board. :lol: [popcorn]
Meh, I am pro-police and social order. I do have problems with LEOs who act as JBTs in violation of their oaths to uphold the COTUS.
If they can't keep their oaths, they need to find other work worthy of their talents and dispositions.
-
Whats not to like? drug sellers make big bucks, cops make big bucks , politicians make big bucks, equipment manufacturers make big bucks, prison complex makes big bucks,life is good. The only losers are the taxpayers who held held up by junkies, and held up for taxes. A perfect example of market distortion by the Gov.
Oh, yes, and we get to toss a bunch of the Bill of Rights on the fire. Trouble is, the WOD is starting to wear thin, so now we have a War on Terror" to work with, now that is a real money maker!
The way to stop drug abuse is to make drugs pure, make it available, and make it cheap. Just let them OD.
And if anyone actually believes our 40 year obsession has stopped any harm from drugs, ask yourself a question- if drugs were legal, and the entire industry around it (gangs especially) had never existed, what would the death rolls look like- I suspect the war on drugs has cost more harm than it prevents.
-
The only one making SWAG's around here is you.
[/quote]
i stand corrected
Survey administration and sample design were improved with the implementation of the 1999 survey, and additional improvements were made in 2002. Since 1999, the survey sample has employed a 50-state design with an independent, multistage area probability sample for each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. At this time, the collection mode of the survey changed from personal interviews and self-enumerated answer sheets to using computer-assisted personal interviews and audio computer-assisted self interviews. In 2002, the survey's title was officially changed to the National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH). Participants have been given $30 for participating in the study since then. This has resulted in an increase in participation rates from the years prior to 2002. Also, since 2002 the new population data from the 2000 decennial census has been used for sample weighting procedures. For these reasons, data gathered for 2002 and beyond cannot validly be compared to data prior to 2002.
i have been pro legalization since before most of you were born
just have learned that peddling factually challenged stories doesn't do any good
the biggest problem facing legalization is its warriors
-
i am further handicapped by almost 2 decades as a disciple of better living through modern chemistry followed by 19 years unscrewing my life and helping others do the same. its so inhibiting all that real life.
it makes me less than impressed by a "docutainment" specialist who still smells of similac.
hes got enough fanbois without me
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39200536/ns/health-addictions/t/illegal-drug-use-higher-nearly-decade-report-finds/#.UHnO6a7wUv4
About 21.8 million Americans, or 8.7 percent of the population age 12 and older, reported using illegal drugs in 2009. That's the highest level since the survey began in 2002. The previous high was just over 20 million in 2006.
The survey, which was being released Thursday, is based on interviews with about 67,500 people. It is considered the most comprehensive annual snapshot of drug use in the United States.
notice the source for facts here?
The Week in Pictures
Other results show a 37 percent increase in ecstasy use and a 60 percent jump in the number of methamphetamine users. In the early 2000s, there was a widespread public safety campaign to warn young people about the dangers of ecstasy as a party drug, but that effort declined as use dropped off.
-
For every drug user who ruins their *expletive deleted*it, there are more recreational users who never have a problem
-
For every drug user who ruins their *expletive deleted*, there are more recreational users who never have a problem
very true 10 or 20 to one at least
sadly for every one that screws up many other lives go in the toilet with them. to some degree all of us who pay the tab do
thats another good reason to make em legal. we could make em free and still come out way ahead on bottom line costs.
darwin would sort things out eventually
you can even use a real world example like england when smack was legal/regulated
heck a police association there even advocated for a return to that policy
a 300 dollar a day habit means a junkie needs to steal 3 k a day in goods to support it
or do crimes directly against people to get cash
-
http://www.opioids.com/heroin/legalise.html
http://www.ukcia.org/research/cunion/cu13.htm
-
i am further handicapped by almost 2 decades as a disciple of better living through modern chemistry followed by 19 years unscrewing my life and helping others do the same. its so inhibiting all that real life.
it makes me less than impressed by a "docutainment" specialist who still smells of similac.
hes got enough fanbois without me
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39200536/ns/health-addictions/t/illegal-drug-use-higher-nearly-decade-report-finds/#.UHnO6a7wUv4
About 21.8 million Americans, or 8.7 percent of the population age 12 and older, reported using illegal drugs in 2009. That's the highest level since the survey began in 2002. The previous high was just over 20 million in 2006.
The survey, which was being released Thursday, is based on interviews with about 67,500 people. It is considered the most comprehensive annual snapshot of drug use in the United States.
notice the source for facts here?
The Week in Pictures
Other results show a 37 percent increase in ecstasy use and a 60 percent jump in the number of methamphetamine users. In the early 2000s, there was a widespread public safety campaign to warn young people about the dangers of ecstasy as a party drug, but that effort declined as use dropped off.
Well, that's certainly good ROI ;/
-
very true 10 or 20 to one at least
sadly for every one that screws up many other lives go in the toilet with them. to some degree all of us who pay the tab do
thats another good reason to make em legal. we could make em free and still come out way ahead on bottom line costs.
darwin would sort things out eventually
you can even use a real world example like england when smack was legal/regulated
heck a police association there even advocated for a return to that policy
a 300 dollar a day habit means a junkie needs to steal 3 k a day in goods to support it
or do crimes directly against people to get cash
I agree with C&SD's post....
Crap.
Now what.
Anyways, I say we legalize everything. Darwin will sort out the folks who can't handle it. Doesn't take much to OD when the product is pure.
-
Darwin will sort out the folks who can't handle it. Doesn't
OD? Fine. Chuck the body into a hole
Go crazy while on drugs? Fine. We'll shoot you and chuck your body into a hole
Works for me...
-
a 300 dollar a day habit means a junkie needs to steal 3 k a day in goods to support it
or do crimes directly against people to get cash
Once legal the price will likely drop quite a bit. That means far fewer junkies will need to steal in order to support their habit. They'll also be more likely to actually be able to get jobs, as it'd be treated like alcohol is now.
The net result is actually likely to be fewer crimes by junkies and fewer deaths due to dealer turf wars, balanced by an increase in users and possibly OD's (though if they were to legalize OTC sale of naloxone along with the drugs it would reduce a large number of opiate-related OD's).
-
Once legal the price will likely drop quite a bit. That means far fewer junkies will need to steal in order to support their habit. They'll also be more likely to actually be able to get jobs, as it'd be treated like alcohol is now.
The net result is actually likely to be fewer crimes by junkies and fewer deaths due to dealer turf wars, balanced by an increase in users and possibly OD's (though if they were to legalize OTC sale of naloxone along with the drugs it would reduce a large number of opiate-related OD's).
Once legal, users will be able to sue drug providers for damages.
The tort lawyers will put them out of business far more effectively than the DEA.
-
Legal smack would be less than cigarettes
some substances greatly reduce the shelf life of those that use. Its a self curing problem.
You could set up a free all you can eat buffet cheaper than you'd believe. All the shenanigans pulled by folks in the med pot movement just hurt the larger cause.
A side benefit? If the gov no longer needed to "protect us" from heroin we could start to use it for folks with cancer and such. Like it was intended. Not sure about current law but knew a guy sent his wife to israel to die. She was allowed appropriate pain relief there.
-
http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0749379706000626-gr1.jpg
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/figures%5Cm6101a3f2.gif
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6101a3.htm
It seems, according to the graphic you posted, damage from the drug war in form of drug death rates increased vastly over the 90's, while use declined.
-
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fmmwr%2Fpreview%2Fmmwrhtml%2Ffigures%2Fm6101a3f1.gif&hash=da34fdebc214e27316d14a30c47d1eb21b1a1da9)
This is of course the chart that C&SD has posted.
-
i am further handicapped by almost 2 decades as a disciple of better living through modern chemistry followed by 19 years unscrewing my life and helping others do the same. its so inhibiting all that real life.
it makes me less than impressed by a "docutainment" specialist who still smells of similac.
hes got enough fanbois without me
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39200536/ns/health-addictions/t/illegal-drug-use-higher-nearly-decade-report-finds/#.UHnO6a7wUv4
notice the source for facts here?
The US Government?
-
The US Government?
same source our "docutainment " guy used
a flaw in his presentation of agenda is that he relies on a study that counts people who self describe as addicts. folks sometimes lack honest introspection. addicts perhaps moreso than "normal" folks.
a real danger in slinging manure is that its usually clearly identifiable as such. i didn't really need to research to know it. credibility counts. the moreso if your intent is to change the world. now if all you want to do is impress the guys drinking redbull and playing frisbee golf its a hit
-
So what is your point? This seems not only to confirm, but to reinforce his point.
-
what do you think his point was? the docutainment kid
-
That the rate of addiction remained constant while Drug War costs rose astronomically.
If you tell me addiction rates rose this only makes the War on Drugs look worse, not better.
-
i think looking at the other numbers is worthwhile too
credibility and all. he picked a good one
i think his point was to make money.
and you need a hook
hes no oliver stone though
the war on drugs was supposed to be a temporary 3-5 years then its all better deal. mr "i am not a crook" told us so
he lied
-
hes no oliver stone though
An example of praising with faint damnation?
-
its a twofer
should insult both of em
-
Legalize, but fortify.
We will all have to become stronger, both as individuals and as a nation. But that is exactly what we need, anyway.
Civilization requires "intoxicants." Altered states are the antidote to the repressions of ordered society, especially societies with order on steroids. And altered states lead to insight and creativity. We need to learn how to master both the core of our beings and our farthest outreach and not place that responsibility in the hands of our masters and overlords.