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Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: RoadKingLarry on November 06, 2012, 01:35:33 AM

Title: Will We Know Today?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on November 06, 2012, 01:35:33 AM
Today is election day (duh).
The big question is will the winner actually be known today or will this mess drag out for weeks to come?

My prediction is that if we are real lucky we might actually get the final results by the 11th of December.

Release the hounds Lawyers!!!
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Regolith on November 06, 2012, 03:34:03 AM
I think it depends on how wrong the polls are. If they are still oversampling Dems, there's a good chance of a Romney blowout, and we should know the result by tomorrow. If they're at all accurate, this may be another 2000.  [barf]
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: erictank on November 06, 2012, 05:46:43 AM
*I* won't - I've got to be in bed by 7-7:30P EST to get up again at 2:30A. But to answer your REAL question, no, we almost certainly won't. Unless Romney picks up enough votes that, say, California doesn't matter (which I just can't see happening), I doubt we'll know until sometime tomorrow.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: BryanP on November 06, 2012, 06:49:18 AM
I won't I intend to studiously ignore the election today.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: T.O.M. on November 06, 2012, 07:30:45 AM
^Me too.  I'm sick of holding my nose while I vote.  I think that the only way we'll know is if one of the two cracks 270 easjly. If it's close, the lawyers and judges may choose the next POTUS.  Read last night that there is a decent chance neither will cross 270, so the vote goes to Congress.  The likely result? Romney with Biden as VP!  How about that option?
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: makattak on November 06, 2012, 07:52:28 AM
9pm EST.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Jamisjockey on November 06, 2012, 09:13:58 AM
I predict it being called early by several outlets for the President in an attempt to dissuade west coast voters.  Then we'll see some retractions as it gets swung around.
I think it will be over today/tomorrow. 
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: MillCreek on November 06, 2012, 09:23:08 AM
For many years, ever since Washington pretty much went to absentee voting, some of the close state races are not called for days afterward, while they count all the ballots that trickle in. 
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Ben on November 06, 2012, 09:33:26 AM
I predict it being called early by several outlets for the President in an attempt to dissuade west coast voters. 

Sadly, it seems like that's been Standard Operational Procedure for the "forward leaning" MSM outlets regarding Democrat candidates for the last several elections.

It's interesting though, that in my little world of liberals here, yesterday I heard several talking in the hall at work that tomorrow would be "the end of the world as we know it". Seems like even the staunchest libs are worried about today's results.

I think unless one of them clearly gets a clear majority of swing states early on, that this will get ugly and drag out. I also think this election has a good chance of one candidate winning the popular vote, and the other winning the Electoral College (which will really get ugly).
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: lysander6 on November 06, 2012, 09:53:13 AM
I think the decision will be dragged out because the NJ/NY axis will call foul due to the hurricane and its effects on polling places and voter access.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Jamisjockey on November 06, 2012, 09:54:47 AM
Sadly, it seems like that's been Standard Operational Procedure for the "forward leaning" MSM outlets regarding Democrat candidates for the last several elections.

It's interesting though, that in my little world of liberals here, yesterday I heard several talking in the hall at work that tomorrow would be "the end of the world as we know it". Seems like even the staunchest libs are worried about today's results.

I think unless one of them clearly gets a clear majority of swing states early on, that this will get ugly and drag out. I also think this election has a good chance of one candidate winning the popular vote, and the other winning the Electoral College (which will really get ugly).

Which is proof they are dumber than the average "gotta get rid of Obama" voter.  
I predict a Romney win, and very little noticable change at the individual level.  Slightly better economic outcome for the next few years, a 50/50 chance of Obama care disappearing, and that's about it.  
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Ben on November 06, 2012, 09:55:41 AM
I think the decision will be dragged out because the NJ/NY axis will call foul due to the hurricane and its effects on polling places and voter access.

Yes, that will be an interesting wildcard.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: makattak on November 06, 2012, 10:11:22 AM
I think the decision will be dragged out because the NJ/NY axis will call foul due to the hurricane and its effects on polling places and voter access.

They can cry foul. Their electoral votes won't make any difference. It won't drag out the process even if they want to keep voting open till January 1.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: MechAg94 on November 06, 2012, 10:38:34 AM
They can cry foul. Their electoral votes won't make any difference. It won't drag out the process even if they want to keep voting open till January 1.
I'll stay on the confident side and just say that Mitt's electoral numbers will mean those states don't matter in the final count.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: longeyes on November 06, 2012, 11:06:38 AM
I think we will learn what most of us knew a long time ago: we are two nations, one growing inside the other like an unwanted pregnancy.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Fitz on November 06, 2012, 11:15:03 AM
I think the decision will be dragged out because the NJ/NY axis will call foul due to the hurricane and its effects on polling places and voter access.

They'll go blue anyways, so you think they'll play games?
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: longeyes on November 06, 2012, 11:23:42 AM
Unless this is a landslide, and probably even then, a whole lot of people are not going to believe or accept the outcome.  Elections don't change cultures, they merely reflect the realities.  One of the realities is the magnitude of the mendacity and manipulation that now constitutes American "public life."
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 06, 2012, 11:37:58 AM
9pm EST.

I think another 2 or 3 hours later.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Jamisjockey on November 06, 2012, 11:39:24 AM
Unless this is a landslide, and probably even then, a whole lot of people are not going to believe or accept the outcome.  Elections don't change cultures, they merely reflect the realities.  One of the realities is the magnitude of the mendacity and manipulation that now constitutes American "public life."

That goes both ways.  Lots of "conservatives" refused to believe the legitimacy of the President getting elected. 
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: makattak on November 06, 2012, 11:41:50 AM
That goes both ways.  Lots of "conservatives" refused to believe the legitimacy of the President getting elected.  

Denial is a rather unsuprising reaction to unpleasant news.

I must, however, point out how long those conservatives wallowed in that denial versus many of the left that still scream about the 2000 election.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Fitz on November 06, 2012, 11:42:43 AM
Iono. There's still lots of birther screaming to this day
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: makattak on November 06, 2012, 11:43:34 AM
Iono. There's still lots of birther screaming to this day

I must be shielded from it in my choice of online reading. So very glad for that. (Ironically, I am better sheilded from the birthers than the "selected not elected!!!1!" crowd.)
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: longeyes on November 06, 2012, 11:52:52 AM
That goes both ways.  Lots of "conservatives" refused to believe the legitimacy of the President getting elected. 

It does, and what means to me is that we now live in a society where we can't trust much of what is said or published.  That is not a great basis for a free nation or a constitutional republic.  One doubts it will last: either we will get more free and more honest, or we will devolve into complete suppressive tyranny.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Jamisjockey on November 06, 2012, 12:01:58 PM
It does, and what means to me is that we now live in a society where we can't trust much of what is said or published.  That is not a great basis for a free nation or a constitutional republic.  One doubts it will last: either we will get more free and more honest, or we will devolve into complete suppressive tyranny.

It says to me that most people don't realize how *expletive deleted*ed the represenatitive democratic republic is as a form of modern government.  Mob elections for mob rule = unsatisfactory results for the remaining 49%.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: makattak on November 06, 2012, 12:17:43 PM
It says to me that most people don't realize how *expletive deleted*ed the represenatitive democratic republic is as a form of modern government.  Mob elections for mob rule = unsatisfactory results for the remaining 49%.

Actually, in the long run, it ends in unsatisfactory results for everyone but a very select few. Mob rule always ends in tyranny.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: HankB on November 06, 2012, 12:29:26 PM
. . . we now live in a society where we can't trust much of what is said or published. 

Tonkin Gulf Incident . . .

"I am not a crook . . . "

NBC supporting the Clinton AWB by running clips of machine guns being shot during their "reporting" . . .

"I did not have sex with that woman . . . "

CBS using forged documents from a dead man in an effort to affect a national election . . .

"I'll cut the deficit in half . . . "

And on and on and on, an endless stream of disinformation, half-truths, distortions, and blatant lies, with outright complicity on the part of the "watchdog" media . . .

Gee, why would anyone be cynical?
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: seeker_two on November 06, 2012, 05:46:34 PM
How long was it until the 2004 Election was certified?.....about a week after that....
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: kgbsquirrel on November 06, 2012, 06:01:56 PM
New Hampshire is reports 28 votes for Obama, 14 for Romney and 1 for "Other". Well, I guess that wraps things up, nothing else to see here, everybody go home.  :P


http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/2012/results
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: makattak on November 06, 2012, 10:00:47 PM
Well, I'm wrong about the time. At least it looks like I'm right about Virginia. I just don't understand how Virginia has come to its senses while Ohio and Pennsylvania have not.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Fitz on November 06, 2012, 10:13:10 PM
Well, I'm wrong about the time. At least it looks like I'm right about Virginia. I just don't understand how Virginia has come to its senses while Ohio and Pennsylvania have not.

florida is pissing me off. And romney needs that one.

the talking head just said that Romney's campaign got off message (deficit/economy) and I agree
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: birdman on November 06, 2012, 10:15:18 PM
Changing my vote, we won't know today.  Auto recount in Florida.

Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: RocketMan on November 06, 2012, 10:17:27 PM
It's not looking good for Romney.  Not many uncalled states left that will go his way.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Ron on November 06, 2012, 10:21:34 PM
Looks like another four years of Obama.

I just don't see Romney running the table on Va, NC, Fl and Ohio
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Ben on November 06, 2012, 10:23:03 PM
Seems like without FL, Romney is sunk.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: DittoHead on November 06, 2012, 10:26:12 PM
Romney is sunk.

That was the consensus after the primaries, I don't believe it ever really changed. You don't beat a big government liberal with a big government "conservative".
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Fitz on November 06, 2012, 10:27:36 PM
That was the consensus after the primaries, I don't believe it ever really changed. You don't beat a big government liberal with a big government "conservative".

BUT BUT BUT BUT WE NOMINATED ROMNEY BECAUSE HE WAS ELECTABLE!@
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: RocketMan on November 06, 2012, 10:54:13 PM
I wish I could change my vote to "Yes, we'll know today."  Romney is done.  Four more years of Obama.  I'm going to bed.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: makattak on November 06, 2012, 11:02:43 PM
I wish I could change my vote to "Yes, we'll know today."  Romney is done.  Four more years of Obama.  I'm going to bed.

Ok, I was about to say that I'm not despairing.

Then I remembered SCOTUS. Then I remembered the deteriorating world situation.

Ok, still not despairing, but I am confronted by how monumental a task it will be to repair things once Obama is gone.

What bothers me the most is the Senate, though. I think I will need to start some extensive study in medicine as we are about to be faced with a shortage of doctors as they retire early.

Any available texts our medical type people would suggest?
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: longeyes on November 06, 2012, 11:04:57 PM
So many experts were so damn wrong. A little hard to believe.  Morris.  Rove.  Will.  Barone. 

Makes you wonder.

But I never bought into the right-wing optimism.  At best we could've bought a few years.

The hope was we could block Obama with a Republican Senate. That is not going to happen apparently.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: brimic on November 06, 2012, 11:10:54 PM
The bloviating talking heads make me want to vomit. They called my state for obama and a leftard senator after only 2% of districts were reported-based on polls.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 06, 2012, 11:14:56 PM
Wow, these returns are looking dismal. I should feel vindicated. This is what I thought would happen with Romney, back during the nomination period. Looks like I was probably right back then.  ;/
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: MillCreek on November 06, 2012, 11:16:00 PM
NBC is calling WA, OR and CA for President Obama.  Polls just closed on the West Coast.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 06, 2012, 11:17:54 PM
NBC is calling WA, OR and CA for President Obama.  Polls just closed on the West Coast.


Stunning!


Interestingly, Real Clear Politics put WA in the Obama column with 0% reporting. Now that they 14% reporting, Romney is slightly ahead. But it's still in O's column. Hmmm.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Ben on November 06, 2012, 11:19:22 PM
Even Fox News has called Ohio for Obama. Obama will also get Colorado and Washington, and likely Nevada. Romney seems to only have Virginia and probably Alaska going his way right now, which would mean Florida wouldn't even matter.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: makattak on November 06, 2012, 11:20:22 PM
Fox just called it for Obama. I'm extremely surprised. I've never been so sure of an election (admittedly, I've only been aware for six presidential elections, though.)

So far, my only hope is to go to bed as I did in 2004 thinking the Democrat won and wake up to the returns changing.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 06, 2012, 11:28:13 PM
You were right to be confident, mak. An Obama win makes no sense. 8% unemployment. No hope anywhere in sight. Benghazi. And they want this bumbling mediocrity to lead them?  ???

Quote
So they said to one another, “Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt.”
Numbers 14.4

Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: ArfinGreebly on November 06, 2012, 11:44:42 PM

Wow.

I hope those people who voted "anybody but Romney" can live with their choice.

I wonder what the vote splits were, not that it matters, where non-D, non-R candidates took a percentage.  Not that it matters.

I might be wrong.  Obama might be good for business.  I don't hold out much hope.

Assuming we hold out until 2016, it will be interesting to see the country's mood.  If the misery index climbs, I don't see how another Dem candidate has a chance.  Question becomes whether we can field a viable conservative candidate.  And that might well depend on the misery index.

Looks like I got this one wrong.  More wrong than I could have imagined.

Time to hunker down and weather the storm.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: makattak on November 06, 2012, 11:52:46 PM
Looks like I got this one wrong.  More wrong than I could have imagined.

Time to hunker down and weather the storm.


I just told my 9 month old as I put him back to sleep: We will have a lot of work to do, but this country made it through a Great Depression and a World War.

I fear we will have to do that again, now. But we can and MUST.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Fitz on November 06, 2012, 11:53:52 PM
Well that didn't take long


This loss is the GOPs fault. Not people who voted their principles

Since it didn't matter anyway, I wish I would have voted Gary Johnson

Instead, I wasted a vote on a RINO who should have easily won this election but couldn't, nominated by a spineless party

I will never... Never vote republican again
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: brimic on November 06, 2012, 11:54:02 PM
Quote
I hope those people who voted "anybody but Romney" can live with their choice.

If you are going to assign blame to anyone, lay it at the feet of those who voted for more socialism, or even better, for those who thought 'socialist lite' was a good idea during the primary.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: brimic on November 06, 2012, 11:55:25 PM
Quote
Since it didn't matter anyway, I wish I would have voted Gary Johnson

Instead, I wasted a vote on a RINO who should have easily won this election but couldn't, nominated by a spineless party

I will never... Never vote republican again

My thoughts are on the same track.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: TommyGunn on November 07, 2012, 12:19:17 AM
Well that didn't take long


This loss is the GOPs fault. Not people who voted their principles

Since it didn't matter anyway, I wish I would have voted Gary Johnson

Instead, I wasted a vote on a RINO who should have easily won this election but couldn't, nominated by a spineless party

I will never... Never vote republican again


Do you think maybe if those that had said that 4 years ago had voted, maybe Romney might have won?  
Think.

 
"All that is necessary for evil to win is for good people to do nothing."
   
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on November 07, 2012, 12:45:47 AM
Dissapointed, sad, maybe even a little depressed but not terribly surprised. Buckle up folks it's going to get interesting.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: brimic on November 07, 2012, 12:47:43 AM
Quote
Do you think maybe if those that had said that 4 years ago had voted, maybe Romney might have won?  
Think.

Would it really matter all that much?
There aren't too many differences between romney and obama to start with, I find it amusing that republicans pinned their hopes on a candidate that passed socialist medicine before obama did.

I went to the polls, held my bile down and voted for romney with nothing more than 'hope' that he wouldn't screw things up worse than obama, and had no illusions that he'd fix or even want to fix the problems caused by obama.

In WI, we ended up with a rino candidate for senate because the party of stupid was too dumb to double down on another candidate cut from the same solid conservative bar stock as Ron Johnson, so now we present to America an empty headed whack-job socialist for a senator in tammy baldwin. [barf] [barf]I feel a lot more let down about that than obama winning.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 07, 2012, 12:50:57 AM
Would it really matter all that much?
There aren't too many differences between romney and obama to start with, I find it amusing that republicans pinned their hopes on a candidate that passed socialist medicine before obama did.


I wasn't amused. I was angrified.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on November 07, 2012, 12:53:42 AM
On the slightly less dim side, Oklahoma is the reddest of the red states. not a single county went for  [barf] Obama.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: TommyGunn on November 07, 2012, 12:56:16 AM
Would it really matter all that much?
There aren't too many differences between romney and obama to start with, I find it amusing that republicans pinned their hopes on a candidate that passed socialist medicine before obama did.

I went to the polls, held my bile down and voted for romney with nothing more than 'hope' that he wouldn't screw things up worse than obama, and had no illusions that he'd fix or even want to fix the problems caused by obama.

In WI, we ended up with a rino candidate for senate because the party of stupid was too dumb to double down on another candidate cut from the same solid conservative bar stock as Ron Johnson, so now we present to America an empty headed whack-job socialist for a senator in tammy baldwin. [barf] [barf]I feel a lot more let down about that than obama winning.
There were plenty of differences between Romney & Obama.  Romney has actually RUN a business or two and understands how to make them work while Obama couldn't run a lemonade stand -- he's NEVER run a lemonade stand!

Romney's health care plan applied to a few % of the people and had no new taxes, Obama's applies to everyone and has 21 new taxes.
Look, I'm too pissed off right now to continue.  Just understand how wrong you are in my opinion.
It's a little pointless to get into a deeper pissing constest as we're both in the same boat -- and it is sinking.
 










Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Monkeyleg on November 07, 2012, 01:41:05 AM
Quote
...this country made it through a Great Depression and a World War.

It also barely made it through a civil war. I just hope there's not another, but the odds against it get slimmer every day.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: brimic on November 07, 2012, 01:42:24 AM
Quote
There were plenty of differences between Romney & Obama.  Romney has actually RUN a business or two and understands how to make them work while Obama couldn't run a lemonade stand -- he's NEVER run a lemonade stand!

Romney's health care plan applied to a few % of the people and had no new taxes, Obama's applies to everyone and has 21 new taxes.
Look, I'm too pissed off right now to continue.  Just understand how wrong you are in my opinion.
It's a little pointless to get into a deeper pissing constest as we're both in the same boat -- and it is sinking.
 

Yes there are plenty of differences- romney had better hair, romney would probably appoint a couple of Roberts clones to SCOTUS, romney was from massachusetts which is known to be a lot more conserv... wait, nevermind....

Repeat this mantra: The party of stupid only wins when it nominates conservatives.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: longeyes on November 07, 2012, 02:27:34 AM
A real conservative might win but conservatives cannot carry a country where half the population is anything but.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: TommyGunn on November 07, 2012, 12:14:03 PM
Yes there are plenty of differences- romney had better hair, romney would probably appoint a couple of Roberts clones to SCOTUS, romney was from massachusetts which is known to be a lot more conserv... wait, nevermind....

Repeat this mantra: The party of stupid only wins when it nominates conservatives.

I agree with your last statement, but I don't even understand your  opening statement.  Romney was certainly a moderate Republican.
I guess I've listened to too many talking heads on the radio whining that the repubs have gone too conservative.  It's so much B.S.  One guy on radio was saying Romney lost because Ryan was too conservative. [tinfoil]
Who the *** cares about Romney's hair.   JFK had better "hair" than Nixon. 
But Romney has better hair than Obama....who hardly even has hair at all.
 [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] ......................................  [barf]

Look, the country had a choice.  A president who gives people free telephones and runs up a $6 trillion dollar debt after promising to cut it in half, and a less-than-perfect governor (but who has good hair) who actually has turned around failing enterprises and made them work and actually had some plan for righting the ship of state and doing something about this country's fiscal asshattery.
The right person lost, the wrong person won, game over, THAT'S IT.
And in the weeks and months to come we will reap what we've sown. :'(
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: ArfinGreebly on November 07, 2012, 02:06:32 PM

I'm consoling myself with the confirmation that the guy I voted for in 1992 turned out to be right.  He predicted the current state of things, nobody wanted to hear it, and he was right in ways that are still being fulfilled.

"But nobody is listening." 

Still true today.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: longeyes on November 08, 2012, 12:12:34 PM
When we stop trying to convert the "pagans" we might actually get somewhere.

Yeah, I know, Hispanics are all going to become Republicans.  Sure they are.  Just as they were where they came from.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: MicroBalrog on November 08, 2012, 12:51:24 PM
If it is not possible to change people's ideas, then we are all screwed.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on November 08, 2012, 12:57:23 PM
I'm consoling myself with the confirmation that the guy I voted for in 1992 turned out to be right.  He predicted the current state of things, nobody wanted to hear it, and he was right in ways that are still being fulfilled.

"But nobody is listening." 

Still true today.

Pardon my lack of recollection, but I was only 14 back then.  '92 was obviously Bush I vs Clinton, with Perot as a spoiler.  Was it Perot, and what speech is it you are referring to?  Genuinely curious.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: ArfinGreebly on November 08, 2012, 01:05:17 PM

Pardon my lack of recollection, but I was only 14 back then.  '92 was obviously Bush I vs Clinton, with Perot as a spoiler.  Was it Perot, and what speech is it you are referring to?  Genuinely curious.


Yes, Perot.  There were ads he did, involving charts and stuff, but IIRC there was also a debate in which he enumerated the results of the current vectors if they remained uncorrected.

There's a YouTube video that has that debate, but I'll have to look it up.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: mtnbkr on November 08, 2012, 01:08:09 PM
It was Perot.  I don't recall any specific speech, just that he made a lot of points back then that are coming true now.

I worked for his company in the mid to late 90s and met the man multiple times.  He's pretty sharp and down-to-earth.  We could have done much worse than him as president.  Too late now.

Chris
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: longeyes on November 08, 2012, 02:08:27 PM
If it is not possible to change people's ideas, then we are all screwed.

You can change people's ideas--if you're motivated enough.

From what I see the motivated people, politically speaking, are mostly on the Left. 
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: longeyes on November 08, 2012, 02:09:15 PM
It also barely made it through a civil war. I just hope there's not another, but the odds against it get slimmer every day.

That war started in the '60s.  Headline: We lost.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: RocketMan on November 10, 2012, 01:04:46 PM
If it is not possible to change people's ideas, then we are all screwed.

To have ideas to change at all requires one to think.  Takers do not think for the most part.  At best they emote.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: longeyes on November 10, 2012, 01:10:26 PM
It was Adults versus Children in touch football.  The kids won.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: MicroBalrog on November 10, 2012, 06:17:08 PM
To have ideas to change at all requires one to think.  Takers do not think for the most part.  At best they emote.

If you gennuinely think that 50% of your own countrymen need only to be thought of as some kind of evil, and stupid, 'takers' that cannot be reasoned and bargained with, you do not deserve political victory.

And indeed, Romney literally thought this way, and did not deserve political victory, and did not win.

And people like Romney do not deserve to win. It is just sad that Obama was the other candidate.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: longeyes on November 10, 2012, 06:40:54 PM
Who says they are evil?  Better to call them "human all too human."  Create a system that encouorages weakness and corruption, subsidize it every which way from Sunday, and you will over time destroy the soul of a nation. 

It is not just the "takers" who are the problem here.  It is the well-off liberals who really believe they are entitled because of presumed moral and intellectual superiority to trample on the rights of everyone else an drag us, willing or not, into their Utopia.  I know a bunch of people who think exactly like this.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: MillCreek on November 10, 2012, 06:59:31 PM
If you gennuinely think that 50% of your own countrymen need only to be thought of as some kind of evil, and stupid, 'takers' that cannot be reasoned and bargained with, you do not deserve political victory.

Quoted for truth.  But the message will be lost on the True Believers who know that theirs is the One True Way, and heretics deserve only scorn for their unwillingness to See The Light.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: TommyGunn on November 10, 2012, 07:46:35 PM
If you gennuinely think that 50% of your own countrymen need only to be thought of as some kind of evil, and stupid, 'takers' that cannot be reasoned and bargained with, you do not deserve political victory.

And indeed, Romney literally thought this way, and did not deserve political victory, and did not win.

And people like Romney do not deserve to win. It is just sad that Obama was the other candidate.

This is sure enlightening.
Romney didn't "deserve" to win because he somehow painted the "moocher" class as "evil? ? ?"
I don't seem to have a clear memory of Romney calling the moocher, or "taker" class evil.  Nor do I recall him saying they couldn't be reasoned with.  I have certainly seen examples of these people on YouTube I would guess couldn't be reasoned with, one comes to mind of one lady who thought being required to work to earn a living was "oppressive" or slavery, for example.  That is a very unreasonable opinion.  A certain other tape of a woman excitedly yapping about her "Obamaphone, another.
But I'm sure that there some who could be reasoned with.
What Romney is worried about is a 16 trillion debt and an entitlement - minded society.  
Listening to people criticize Romney for his remark is often either enlightening or annoying.  Fox New's liberal "talking head" Bob Beckel got all offended and retorted about how many were  retired and receiving social security.
Well, it might be unfair to refer to retired people as "moochers," but does Beckel realize social security is headed into insolvency?  It's basically an intergenerational Ponzi Scheme and demographics are going to bring it down.  When it started each retired person could be supported by dozens of workers.  It's easy to spread out the expense that way and each worker has to contribute er, be ripped off of only a small amount of $$.  But things are changing and there are far more retired people, soaking up much more benefits.  
While each retiree does receive back monies he put in, those are gone very quickly and very soon he is actually being supported by the few other workers that are paying into SS.  This is been accelerated with our current level of unemployment.  Politicians play games with numbers and shift the date SS will collapse around, but it's still out there.  Like it or not, it is not really completly unreasonable to refer to retirees on SS as "takers" but I understand how many will see it as harsh.
More clear cases are people who are completly dependant on (often proudly so) the teat of federal government welfare checks.

So Romney didn't "deserve" to win?  Does America "deserve" the economic ruin that it is heading into if we can't do something about both the entitlements and the mindset of millions of Americans who actually do believe it is the job of the govt. to support them?
Yes.  America does deserve it.

 >:D

It's just such a shame so many Americans who still maintain the classic moralities of rugged individualism, free enterprise, small (unintrusive) government will also suffer mightily right along with all the rest as the hollowed sow of America collapses and rots from within, those clinging to the teats whining and shrieking in agony as their free meals dry up and blow away in the wind.

But we've made our choice.  The mesmerizing community organizer remains in office four more years, triumphing over the droll, boring, unimpressive but evil business tycoon, Mitt Romney.


Pleasant dreams.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: RocketMan on November 10, 2012, 08:01:08 PM
If you gennuinely think that 50% of your own countrymen need only to be thought of as some kind of evil, and stupid, 'takers' that cannot be reasoned and bargained with, you do not deserve political victory.

And indeed, Romney literally thought this way, and did not deserve political victory, and did not win.

And people like Romney do not deserve to win. It is just sad that Obama was the other candidate.

Where did I say they were evil or stupid?   An individual voting based on how they 'feel' is not necessarily stupid, although one might certainly wonder about that.  They are ignorant at the least, maybe misguided, stupid at worst.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 10, 2012, 11:45:07 PM
If you gennuinely think that 50% of your own countrymen need only to be thought of as some kind of evil, and stupid, 'takers' that cannot be reasoned and bargained with, you do not deserve political victory.

And indeed, Romney literally thought this way, and did not deserve political victory, and did not win.

And people like Romney do not deserve to win. It is just sad that Obama was the other candidate.


Romney's loss is perhaps the surest proof that he was right.
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: seeker_two on November 11, 2012, 09:14:23 AM
That war started in the '60s.  Headline: We lost.

+1.....now it's time to go to ground, take what jobs we can get, and visit a different bar on every Alliance Day.....


Romney's loss is perhaps the surest proof that he was right.

+∞
Title: Re: Will We Know Today?
Post by: ArfinGreebly on November 12, 2012, 04:47:55 PM

Well, Romney "lost" something, but it wasn't the election.  What he lost was the vote count.

There's a difference.

Remember, if someone stacks the vote, stuffs the ballot box, forges thousands of ballots, that does not mean they outnumber you.  It only means they have "numbers" to back up their claim.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics vote counts.