Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Scout26 on December 02, 2012, 01:47:57 PM
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Do they go with the "let it burn" approach or pass a budget in the house that has some tax hikes (on say incomes form all sources above $1.5mil) along with 4 dollars in spending cuts for every $1 in new taxes. Then if Obama and Reid choose to do nothing (which appears to be their strategy), they then can not blame it on the Republicans.
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/11/29/second-look-at-tax-hikes-on-everyone/
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The democrats will always blame it on the republicans. Giving them what they want is just letting things burn in a slightly different manner.
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Obama's strategy is to get the Republicans to renege on their [ill-advised Grover Norquest] tax pledge while getting nothing in return. The tax increases he's asking for are not large enough to accomplish anything else meaningful, and there's been no talk of spending cuts -- just hints maybe of cuts 10 years down the road.
The Republicans should walk out. Whatever happens they'll get the blame. So let it burn.
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They absolutely would do well to stage a mass walk-out when the subject of hiking taxes comes up on the floor, but they aren't referred to as The Stupid Party for nothing.
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So other than running the ATR group, has Grover Norquist ever served in elected office or run anything?
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The economy likely will show at least some improvement, unless we do a Greece. So Obama is going to take credit for any improvement.
If the Republicans break their no-tax pledge, and the economy improves, Obama will say that his policies worked, but the Republican base will know they didn't and be furious with Republican congressmen for raising taxes.
If the Republicans hold firm and don't raise taxes, they'll be held responsible if the economy only improves a little. Obama and the media would say that we would have a full recovery if the Republicans had cooperated.
I've read, and sometimes agree with the argument, that the Republicans should give Obama every last thing he wants. But they should be very vocal and very public, emphasizing that they are doing exactly what Obama wants, and that citizens should remember that, and the Republicans will remind them of that, in a year or two. That assumes that the media will cover things fairly, though, so the idea won't work.
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Obama's strategy is to get the Republicans to renege on their [ill-advised Grover Norquest] tax pledge while getting nothing in return. The tax increases he's asking for are not large enough to accomplish anything else meaningful, and there's been no talk of spending cuts -- just hints maybe of cuts 10 years down the road.
The Republicans should walk out. Whatever happens they'll get the blame. So let it burn.
Obama's approach is like J. Wellington Wimpy in the old Popeye cartoon series: "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today." The Big O wants to raise taxes a little while INCREASING spending by a lot. He doesn't seem to understand that you can't get blood from a stone, and that this country is effectively and functionally bankrupt.
I disagree with Monkeyleg. I don't think the economy is going to improve. I think it's going to tank -- worse than it has already.
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The democrats will always blame it on the republicans. Giving them what they want is just letting things burn in a slightly different manner.
This infinity.
Abstention is one thing. But anything as dramatic as a walk-out will just be parlayed into more media outrage at Republicans refusing to work with the Democrats.
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So other than running the ATR group, has Grover Norquist ever served in elected office or run anything?
Nope. Professional lobbyist. ATR is just the most known movement. No other job that I know of. I think he came up with his "no tax hikes ever" idea when he was like 14 and stuck with it. I could be wrong on the age. If I am it was probably 12.
I honestly have no idea why anybody gives him any thought. I'd give the opinion of the immigrant Indian family running the liquor store around the corner more weight than this guy on taxes. At least they've got actual productive jobs and are running a business.
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Republican strategy will consist of running toward the nearest news camera, ostentatiously committing seppuku, and then asking the camera crew, "Will you love me now?"
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Republican stragedy and the Fiscal Cliff.
Republicans have a strategy?
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Republicans have a strategy?
Yep. It's pretty much begging people to like them.
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Yep. It's pretty much begging people to like them.
They are not smart enough to do that ......... ;/
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They are not smart enough to do that ......... ;/
Daring people to like them?
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The Republicans are boringly predictable. A controversial issue will come up, that they should oppose 100%, many of them will, and then a group of "moderate" republicans (aka RINOs, and its usually the same jackwagons everytime) will vote with the Dems every *expletive deleted*ing time. They are the idiots in the scary movie that throw open the door for the axe murderer.
Yet the Dems seldom suffer from the same issue...
With "friends" like these...
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The only strategy, when you are speeding toward a cliff, is to yank the emergency brake and pull hard left, then hope for the best. Slowing down won't work.
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The only strategy, when you are speeding toward a cliff, is to yank the emergency brake and pull hard left right, then hope for the best. Slowing down won't work.
Fixed that.
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Fixed that.
OK. :)
Read this this morning:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/us/politics/pushing-gop-to-negotiate-obama-ends-giving-in.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20121203&_r=0
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The Republican response is so simple.
Proposal #1. Media announced over this last week that the Middle Class financial position is at the same level as in 1969. R's should say that if the Democrats really care about the Middle Class, here's the deal. Then the R's in the house should vote out the duplicate of the 1969 budget and give it to the Senate. Include in that budget a continuance of the Bush Tax Cuts except for those who have an yearly gross income from all sources of over 1.5 million dollars and tax that at 50%.
Proposal #2. Compromise using the 2001 budget (Beginning of the new millennium) and the same tax proposal.
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It no longer matters what Republicans do. The system is way out of control, because reporting is so ridiculously biased. If there is an agreement, Obama will be portrayed as the savior of the nation who fought over the obstructionist conservatives. If there is no agreement, the Reps will be blamed for everything that ensues. Showing up and giving Obama everything he asks for will also not work, because there would be no way to criticize him over the outcome, as they agreed to it. It is a diabolical trap.
The way to break out of the trap is to form and maintain a principled but practical position. Reps have been incapable of doing so for a long long time, because they have been shell-shocked by the media and lame advisors. If they ever want to be relevant again, Reps have to follow the Margaret Thatcher model - "first you win the argument, then you win the election." For a long time now, the Reps have been trying to do the opposite. Then they are surprised it does not work.
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It no longer matters what Republicans do. The system is way out of control, because reporting is so ridiculously biased. If there is an agreement, Obama will be portrayed as the savior of the nation who fought over the obstructionist conservatives. If there is no agreement, the Reps will be blamed for everything that ensues. Showing up and giving Obama everything he asks for will also not work, because there would be no way to criticize him over the outcome, as they agreed to it. It is a diabolical trap.
QFT. I see no way out for them, at least for the "fiscal cliff" stuff in the short term. Even if they do as Monkeyleg mentioned, and completely agree to everything Obama wants to put the ball in his court, the media will still blame any failures of that policy on the Republicans, or extraneous factors, or <insert excuse here> and shield Obama.
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It no longer matters what Republicans do. The system is way out of control, because reporting is so ridiculously biased. If there is an agreement, Obama will be portrayed as the savior of the nation who fought over the obstructionist conservatives. If there is no agreement, the Reps will be blamed for everything that ensues. Showing up and giving Obama everything he asks for will also not work, because there would be no way to criticize him over the outcome, as they agreed to it. It is a diabolical trap.
The way to break out of the trap is to form and maintain a principled but practical position. Reps have been incapable of doing so for a long long time, because they have been shell-shocked by the media and lame advisors. If they ever want to be relevant again, Reps have to follow the Margaret Thatcher model - "first you win the argument, then you win the election." For a long time now, the Reps have been trying to do the opposite. Then they are surprised it does not work.
The way out of the trap is to stop playing a game you cannot win.
Take your chips and go home.
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Congress should present the Republican budget to the President.
Once the President rejects it, party line vote to give the President whatever he asks.
The only way out is for the public to see the Dems own the whole enchilada and everything that entails.
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The whole discussion or negotiation is already negative for the Republican Party. They can not win either way... fiscal cliff, they'll get blamed; rasie taxes, they'll get blamed; keep taxes at present level, Democrats get the credit. It is an engrained position propagated by the media over and over again that the Democratic Party is for the "working man" and for those that can help themselves. The Republicans are always the bad guy regardless of whether they are right or not.
Hence.. The Republicans should walk out. Whatever happens they'll get the blame. So let it burn.
They have no other choice other than to obstain if they want to remain consistant with party ideals.
Nobody listens anymore.... I have figured that one out. A certain segment listens to Fox News and the rest listen to the more liberal media. Most newspapers will not bring up the past unless it is negative to the Republica Party. Get used to it.
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The whole discussion or negotiation is already negative for the Republican Party. They can not win either way... fiscal cliff, they'll get blamed; rasie taxes, they'll get blamed; keep taxes at present level, Democrats get the credit. It is an engrained position propagated by the media over and over again that the Democratic Party is for the "working man" and for those that can help themselves. The Republicans are always the bad guy regardless of whether they are right or not.
Hence..
They have no other choice other than to abstain if they want to remain consistent with party ideals.
If they abstain does the Dem vote still pass the legislation? If yes, then I'm good with an abstention on principle. The key is the public has to associate the mess with the statists.
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If they abstain does the Dem vote still pass the legislation? If yes, then I'm good with an abstention on principle. The key is the public has to associate the mess with the statists.
All budgets originate in the House and are then sent to the Senate. (All spending bills, I think.) The President can submit a *proposed* budget but it cannot get off the ground unless the House votes on it. House Republicans actually hold all the high cards except for public opinion and a sympathetic press (is that one trump card or two?)
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All budgets originate in the House and are then sent to the Senate. (All spending bills, I think.) The President can submit a *proposed* budget but it cannot get off the ground unless the House votes on it. House Republicans actually hold all the high cards except for public opinion and a sympathetic press (is that one trump card or two?)
The "people" put Obama and the Dems in the Senate because they know what they want.
I say the Republicans should let them have what they want, good and hard.
Allow the President to get his budget.
There is zero chance of even getting milk toast Paul Ryan type reforms let alone anything substantial or meaningful.
The Republicans should make a big show of giving the President and the Dems what they want while drawing the contrast between what they propose compared to the D's.
Let the Dems own this economy then let the chips fall where they may.
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The "people" put Obama and the Dems in the Senate because they know what they want.
I say the Republicans should let them have what they want, good and hard.
Allow the President to get his budget.
There is zero chance of even getting milk toast Paul Ryan type reforms let alone anything substantial or meaningful.
The Republicans should make a big show of giving the President and the Dems what they want while drawing the contrast between what they propose compared to the D's.
Let the Dems own this economy then let the chips fall where they may.
This, + 16 trillion.
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Letting the Dems own the whole enchilada is only the prelude. The Left doesn't mind "owning" collapse, it's just an opportunity for outright tyranny for them. We don't get out of this situation by pretending that in the end we don't have to walk away from a system that is out to destroy us. The goal is to walk away intact and unbloodied.
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The "people" put Obama and the Dems in the Senate because they know what they want.
I say the Republicans should let them have what they want, good and hard.
Allow the President to get his budget.
There is zero chance of even getting milk toast Paul Ryan type reforms let alone anything substantial or meaningful.
The Republicans should make a big show of giving the President and the Dems what they want while drawing the contrast between what they propose compared to the D's.
Let the Dems own this economy then let the chips fall where they may.
The Republicans will always be to blame when it goes bad, it does not matter what they do. It's a no win situation, period. The MSM will see to it that the Republicans own everything bad about the economy.
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The Republicans will always be to blame when it goes bad, it does not matter what they do. It's a no win situation, period. The MSM will see to it that the Republicans own everything bad about the economy.
Absolutely true. The Republicans could put up billboards on every block, hire skywriters, put notices on milk cartons and send direct mail to every household in the country telling people that they are going to do exactly what Obama wants, but whatever happens is the result of Obama's policies. Even then, the media would convince them that the disaster was somehow the fault of the Republicans.
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Don't vote for Obama's budget....don't vote against it....
....When the day of the budget vote arrives, don't even show up to vote. Release a press statement telling Americans that, if the Democrats refuse to negotiate in good faith & want to derail the national economy, they can do it without the GOP's involvement.
Should make for interesting TV....
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Apropos of the discussion: Republican "Doomsday Plan".
http://news.yahoo.com/republican-doomsday-plan-cave-taxes-vote-present-143948062--abc-news-politics.html (http://news.yahoo.com/republican-doomsday-plan-cave-taxes-vote-present-143948062--abc-news-politics.html)
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Honestly, I hope we do go "off the cliff" so to speak. Clinton era tax rates suck, but they are for many at least bearable. And the significant, actual cuts in spending that would accompany them are worth it, to me.
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IIRC, and someone can check my math. If we raise taxes on the "rich" (those making $250,000 a year or more), per the CBO that will raise $65 billion dollars in 2013.
Federal Spending is estimated at $10.5 billion. Per day. So getting the "wealthy" to "pay their fair share" gets us a week's worth of federal spending.
And Obama is proposing spending $202 billion more in 2013 then we did in 2012.
I'm really convinced that the problem is NOT on the revenue side of the ledger.
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I'm really convinced that the problem is NOT on the revenue side of the ledger.
Ya think?
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Government loves the "poor" and even more those who comfortably and profitably minister, via government, to the "poor." That means that government is essentially a body alien to the vast corpus of the working population of America. So long as that chasm exists we have an impossible problem on our hands. Of course it would help if we didn't maintain the poor in their poverty and continue to import more poor to provide clientele for the Helping Classes, wouldn't it?