Post by: Werewolf on July 11, 2006, 04:44:12 AM
Quote
Nina Shea's group the Center for Religious Freedom examined textbooks used during the past school year, and found the following teachings, which were verified by NBC News:
Jews and Christians are "enemies" of Muslims.
Every religion other than Islam is "false."
"The hour [of Judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them."
"It's taught that Christians and Jews are the enemy of the Muslim," says Shea. "And that the Muslim must wage jihad in order to spread the faith in battle against the infidel."
What's more, an eighth grade text equates Jews with "apes" and Christian infidels with "swine." A tenth grade text teaches that the life of a Muslim is worth twice that of a non-Muslim.
"This is the ideological foundation for building tomorrows' terrorists," says Shea.
If that article is true how can anyone doubt that the west is in a Holy War with Islam? What will it take to wake people up to the fact that middle eastern children are taught from a young age that Jews and Christians are the enemy?Jews and Christians are "enemies" of Muslims.
Every religion other than Islam is "false."
"The hour [of Judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them."
"It's taught that Christians and Jews are the enemy of the Muslim," says Shea. "And that the Muslim must wage jihad in order to spread the faith in battle against the infidel."
What's more, an eighth grade text equates Jews with "apes" and Christian infidels with "swine." A tenth grade text teaches that the life of a Muslim is worth twice that of a non-Muslim.
"This is the ideological foundation for building tomorrows' terrorists," says Shea.
Another 911?
The mores and values of our culture that we value so highly will inevitably lead to our downfall if we don't open our eyes, smell the *expletive deleted*it and DEAL with it.
But it'll never happen. More's the pity for our grandchildren.
[sarcasm]I think I'll invest in a prayer rug company; at least my grand kids can be rich muslims![/sarcasm]
Post by: The Rabbi on July 11, 2006, 04:46:39 AM
Post by: Sindawe on July 11, 2006, 07:27:32 AM
Along with heat, soft X-rays, gamma radiation and overpressure.
Post by: charby on July 11, 2006, 08:48:12 AM
But I think its bad for a religion to preach that other religions are swine and apes. We have a lot of that here in America amongst the different sects of Christianity. Being raised a Catholic I sure took my licks from the Calvinists, Evangelicals and Mormons.
-C
Post by: Mannlicher on July 11, 2006, 09:03:01 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 11, 2006, 09:03:04 AM
Post by: Tallpine on July 11, 2006, 09:10:47 AM
?Quote from: Sindawe
the Islamic world kept the knowledge of the Ancient world from vanishing when
Western Rome fell and Europe sank into feudal darkness.
You left out the efforts of Irish monks. Ireland never really suffered from that "feudal darkness" Western Rome fell and Europe sank into feudal darkness.
Post by: The Rabbi on July 11, 2006, 10:11:42 AM
Post by: Shalako on July 11, 2006, 11:49:01 AM
Or maybe the poor mis-understood Wahabbist would help put my head in the sand for me? What a pal...
Post by: The Rabbi on July 11, 2006, 12:49:23 PM
Quote from: Shalako
Or maybe the poor mis-understood Wahabbist would help put my head in the sand for me? What a pal...
Sure. Where would you like your body buried?
Post by: Art Eatman on July 11, 2006, 01:42:39 PM
http://www.memri.org
I haven't checked it out, yet, but per his column it's pertinent to this thread...
Art
Post by: Matthew Carberry on July 11, 2006, 06:41:12 PM
Quote from: sindawe
Sad really, considering that the Islamic world kept the knowledge of the Ancient world from vanishing when Western Rome fell and Europe sank into feudal darkness. I fear that the in the end only cure for the madness known as Wahhabi Islam will be for the West to bring light to the Islamic world.
Along with heat, soft X-rays, gamma radiation and overpressure.
That's comedy gold sind. Along with heat, soft X-rays, gamma radiation and overpressure.
Hopefully not prescient.
Post by: 280plus on July 11, 2006, 11:46:01 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on July 12, 2006, 03:40:01 AM
Quote from: 280plus
If you ask me I'd say extreme fanaticism in ANY religion brings out this kind of ferocity. What was that thing, "The Inquisition". Nope, no extremist religious practices there. It amazes me as to how much blood has been shed in the name of "God" throughout human history. It explains my disdain for organized religion.
So anything that can have "extremism" attached to it should be disdained?
Post by: 280plus on July 12, 2006, 04:17:18 AM
Post by: The Rabbi on July 12, 2006, 05:22:16 AM
Quote from: 280plus
I'm not saying religion should be disdained only the organizations that profess them. For example, I'm not too crazy about the history of the Roman Catholic church what with say the Inquisition and collaborating with the Nazis and more recently all the sexual abuse nightmares. Then I'm not too crazy about what the Muslims did to the Armenians which, as you may know, was when the term Holocaust was first used to describe mass extermination. More currently I think Israel is just as much an aggressor as Palestine. I think they share the burden of the strife in that region. I want to know how these religions can preach peace and love yet kill each other mercilessly over what are essentially the same beliefs. I'm not sure that's what God wants.
"Israel" is a state, not a religion. "Muslims" are practitioners of a religion, not a state. The Armenians suffered at the hands of the Turks (Muslims), not the Indonesians (also Muslims).The Catholic Church is roughly 2,000 years old with a following that is worldwide and has been for quite some time. That somewhere in those 2k years and among those billions of people, some of them may not have been the most savory seems something of a given. I dont think it discredits the historical sum total of the institution.
Post by: Werewolf on July 12, 2006, 07:19:20 AM
Quote from: 280plus
If you ask me I'd say extreme fanaticism in ANY religion brings out this kind of ferocity. What was that thing, "The Inquisition". Nope, no extremist religious practices there. It amazes me as to how much blood has been shed in the name of "God" throughout human history. It explains my disdain for organized religion.
I am truly surprised that anyone could become incredulous in regards to humans using God as a reason to kill. Groups of people have been killing other groups of people since the first proto-human figured out that a big stick could be used to do it. Each group always has a reason for trying to kill the other. They're always good reasons - at least to the groups doing the killing. No one can reasonably deny that a prime reason for one group attempting to kill another all through mankind's history has been that one group doesn't particularly care for the deity of another. Fact of life.When it comes to groups killing each other all that's really necessary to justify it is a reason. Absent religion another reason would be found and there would still be groups of humans killing other groups of humans. One group killing another is what humans do; it's who we are; practice makes perfect and we get lots of that when it comes to killing. It's why we're at the top of the food chain and will remain there.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 12, 2006, 08:37:17 AM
Quote from: 280plus
I'm not saying religion should be disdained only the organizations that profess them.
I think that would be like saying that libertarianism is fine, but any organized libertarian party would be necessarily evil. Why?
Post by: 280plus on July 12, 2006, 11:32:56 AM
Quote
"Israel" is a state, not a religion. "Muslims" are practitioners of a religion, not a state. The Armenians suffered at the hands of the Turks (Muslims), not the Indonesians (also Muslims).
I understand all that. Israel is a Jewish state, is it not? I was steering away from the word "Jews" for some reason. As far as the Turks, I was using them as an example of an extremist Muslim group who massacred thousands quite brutally. I'm saying all relgious orders have little skeletons in their closets yet they preach peace and love for your fellow man. I call that hypocritical. Granted not EVERYBODY in every religion is bad but, like you said, some are. How can you tell who is who? Who is in it truly for the spiritual side and who is in it as a means to an ends? Shall I bring up Scientology?fistful, I'm saying they MIGHT be evil. That's enough for me.
Werewolf, maybe amazed was the wrong word. I'm thinking like disgusted or disheartened might be a better description of how I feel.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 12, 2006, 12:35:01 PM
Quote from: 280plus
fistful, I'm saying they MIGHT be evil. That's enough for me.
The ASPCA might be evil. Big Brothers, Big Sisters might be evil.
The IPSC might be evil.
The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers might be evil.
The Daughters of the American Revolution might be evil.
The St. Louis Auto Dealers Association might be evil.
The Model Train Hobbyists Political Action Committe might be evil.
The Salt Lake City Thai Boxing League might be evil.
The Ladies' Home Journal Scrapbooking Club might be evil.
Weight Watchers might be evil.
Oprah's Book Club is definitely evil.
The IRS is definitely evil.
Have I made my point?
I think you may have missed Werewolf's real point, which is best summarized with this excerpt:
Quote from: Werewolf
Absent religion another reason would be found and there would still be groups of humans killing other groups of humans. One group killing another is what humans do; it's who we are; practice makes perfect and we get lots of that when it comes to killing.
Although, that doesn't excuse a religion that actually teaches religious violence.
Post by: The Rabbi on July 12, 2006, 12:39:19 PM
Quote from: 280plus
I understand all that. Israel is a Jewish state, is it not? I was steering away from the word "Jews" for some reason. As far as the Turks, I was using them as an example of an extremist Muslim group who massacred thousands quite brutally. I'm saying all relgious orders have little skeletons in their closets yet they preach peace and love for your fellow man. I call that hypocritical. Granted not EVERYBODY in every religion is bad but, like you said, some are. How can you tell who is who? Who is in it truly for the spiritual side and who is in it as a means to an ends? Shall I bring up Scientology?
"Jewish" is not a religion. What Israel does is no reflection on what Judaism teaches or on the Jewish religion. "The Turks" are not an extremist Muslim group but an ethnic group speaking a related language and generally practicing some form of Islam. Judging Islam based on the Turkish massacre of the Kurds in the 1920s is like judging Southern Baptists based on the behavior of William Calley and his troops at My Lai.
Post by: jefnvk on July 12, 2006, 01:09:09 PM
Quote
I heard on Some Radio Program that most of the scholars of the Islamic Golden Age were Christians and Jews. Does anyone know if that's true?
Don't know if its true or not, but it wouldn't suprise me. There was a time when Islam was the (most) tolerant religion. While Christians and others wern't exactly treated as first class citizens, they were treated much better than a Muslim in Rome would have been.There are accounts of Christians (Coptic I believe?) fleeing with their Muslim neighbors when the Crusaders rolled into town, as they prefered their second class status with the Muslims to whatever the incoming Christians had in mind for them.
Post by: 280plus on July 12, 2006, 03:37:30 PM
Fist, I fully understand Werewolf's point and I agree with him. I just wish it wasn't so. I THINK I understand yours. At least to where I agree with pretty much everything you've listed there. All those things, or at least SOME of the people involved with them most definitely might be evil. Therefore I have nothing to do with any of them. So maybe it's not just RELIGIOUS organizations I disdain. It is ALL organizations. Don't GET me started on the Boy Scouts, or Little League.
And again, it's not the concept of Boy Scouts or Little League that I have a problem with. Just SOME of the people who are involved.
Post by: The Rabbi on July 12, 2006, 03:48:15 PM
Quote from: 280plus
I thought to be a Jew is to practice Judaism and to practice Judaism is to be a Jew. Are you saying none of the problems between Palestine and Israel are based in religious differences? As far as the Turks I am not blaming or judging ALL of Islam for their crimes, I'm merely trying to say by way of example that the big three religions all have periods in their history when their practitioners, or at least a portion of them, have behaved in less than a benevolent nature even though they all teach benevolence. I have an issue with that. I have an issue with the Catholic church aiding and abetting pedophiles and covering it up. I also have an issue with them aiding and abetting Nazis and helping them escape justice. And I'll bet a lot of money changed hands in the process. I'm not blaming the religion. I'm blaming those that have taken the religion and used it to aid themselves in promoting or protecting behavoir that is evil in the eyes of God. What's one of the Commandmants? Thou shall not kill. That is a Commandmant from God. Don't all religions contain similar mandates? Yet they get broken all the time and in some cases in the name of religion. I call that hypocritical.
.
I know people who are not Jewish who are practicing Judaism and I know people who are Jewish who arent practicing it. Some of the latter are my relatives..
The problems with the Palestinians and Israels largely transcend religious issues. At this point they entirely transcend them.
I also have issues with Nazis, genocide, and pedophilia. I dont know many folks who dont. But I dont think it condemns either everyone who practices those religion or the religion itself.
There are NRA members in favor of gun control. Does that make the NRA worthless and evil?
There are IDPA members and IPSC members who beat their wives. That doesnt make those organizations evil (OK, maybe it does with IPSC).
You seem perfectly content to smear the broad brush stroke over any organization or philosophy that hasnt been 100% squeaky clean for its entire history. You fail to see the equally good things those movements have done, things that have bettered mankind in ways that would be otherwise impossible. How many Catholic hospitals are there? How many Jewish hospitals. How many clinics for poor people in the 3rd world staffed by people who could easily make a good living doing something a lot less stressful. I could go and on with this. But you ignore all of it and merely look at the atrocities and condemn all religions.
Post by: roo_ster on July 12, 2006, 04:09:15 PM
Quote from: The Rabbi
You seem perfectly content to smear the broad brush stroke over any organization or philosophy that hasnt been 100% squeaky clean for its entire history. You fail to see the equally good things those movements have done, things that have bettered mankind in ways that would be otherwise impossible. How many Catholic hospitals are there? How many Jewish hospitals. How many clinics for poor people in the 3rd world staffed by people who could easily make a good living doing something a lot less stressful. I could go and on with this. But you ignore all of it and merely look at the atrocities and condemn all religions.
TR pretty much nailed it. Humans are corrupt & imperfect, thus any organization that consists of humans will be imperfect, despite all efforts to the contrary. I'd be willing to bet some schmoe who worked at the March of Dimes took advantage of some kid or donor. Same thing with regard to some organization dedicated to helping fluffy puppies.Welcome the the reality of humanity, in all its contradictory glory and ignominy.
The only way to avoid the imperfections of humanity is to go off & live in a cave by yourself...but then you'd still have to put up with your imperfect self and the rationalizations for behavior you know is wrong but do anyway.
Post by: 280plus on July 12, 2006, 04:25:34 PM
Quote
But you ignore all of it and merely look at the atrocities and condemn all religions.
Not true. I condemn the organizations SURROUNDING those religions. I condemn NO religion. I recognize everyones right to their own. I don't deny that they have also done many good things. I don't deny that there are many good people out there doing many good things in the name of religion and doing it with their hearts in the right place. But I also can't deny that underlying them there have been and still are those that would hide behind those good deeds as a means to some evil intent. Right now in Hartford there's a case where a local preacher had been raping an 11 yo girl regularly for some time. Do I bl;ame the people of that church? Absolutely not. I DO blame the organization that allowed the preacher to gain the trust of this girl AND her parents so that he could achieve his evil ends. I've become cynical over the years Rabbi but not without cause. Is IDPA so important that you would associate yourself with a known wife beater to participate? Not to me. I'll go off and shoot my own IDPA style. I have my own private relationship with God. I do my best to follow his commandments and I believe because I do he (or she) looks after me and so far has done a pretty good job of it. I also believe when my time comes God will have already recognized my shortcomings as a human being and forgive me for them. I don't need to belong to any organization to validate these beliefs. However, I'm sure you're aware of many religious organizations that will tell me my beliefs are false and without strict regard to the organization there is no salvation.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 12, 2006, 06:46:26 PM
Quote from: 280plus
I condemn NO religion.
Actually, I think you do. Religions such as Judaism, Christianity, and I believe also Islam, all inherently demand some sort of organization. Membership in a local church is a requirement for Christians. Judaism has a priesthood at its very foundation in the law of Moses, and a tradition of synagogues and rabbis (rabbim?) .Quote from: 280plus
All those things, or at least SOME of the people involved with them most definitely might be evil. Therefore I have nothing to do with any of them. So maybe it's not just RELIGIOUS organizations I disdain. It is ALL organizations.
That's so silly, it needs no further comment.
Post by: 280plus on July 13, 2006, 01:57:27 AM
I tolerate and remain on the outskirts of a couple of organizations because the subject they involve interests me and at the core there are some good people but I can tell you they both have their individuals whose motives are something other than the subject at hand. Whether it be fame, fortune or love just to name a few. The old hidden agenda routine. Believe me it's out there. Who was that old guy with the lantern searching all eternity for the one honest man?
And no I DO NOT condemn ANY religion. you miss my point. I just don't feel or see the need to call myself a Catholic or a Muslim or a Jew or even a Christian nor do I see the need to participate in their rituals in order to validate my beliefs. Hopefully that's not too hard for you to accept. Why can't I worship or have faith in or do my best to honor God without being tied to some organized religious group?
To try to get back to the original subject of the thread. Could we say that POSSIBLY Muslim extremists just plain old don't like us "infidels" and are using God's name to justify their hate and intensify their fervor as well as fill their ranks?
I'll tell you what one of my old, very religious aunts said to me one time, "We can't blame God for all these terrible things. The devil is the one to blame. It's the devil doing these things." ( or something like that anyways). Whether it be Jim Jones, David Koresh, pedophilic priests or Wahabbist Muslims in HER mind it is Satan at work behind the scenes. I agree with her.
Post by: 280plus on July 13, 2006, 03:04:40 AM
However, I don't think comparing DAR or the NRA to any religion is necessarily comparing apples to apples. What I've found in many cases however is that in most organizations there are always the few who'll ruin it for everyone if given half the chance. All it takes is one or two. That doesn't make them "evil" but that's why I steer out of the middle of most organizations. As far as religious organizations, if they'd stop fighting amongst themselves about whose God is best, who Jerusalem belongs to and show a little LOVE instead it would go a long way with me. It would be a start. But given the original post in this thread, which I just reread, I don't see it happening.Sorry about the drift Ww...
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 13, 2006, 03:39:00 AM
Quote from: 280plus
As far as religious organizations, if they'd stop fighting amongst themselves about whose God is best, who Jerusalem belongs to and show a little LOVE instead it would go a long way with me.
So if the monotheistic religions would quit being monotheistic, and conform to your beliefs, they would get your approval?
Post by: Stand_watie on July 13, 2006, 04:23:05 AM
Quote from: 280plus
If you ask me I'd say extreme fanaticism in ANY religion brings out this kind of ferocity. What was that thing, "The Inquisition". Nope, no extremist religious practices there. It amazes me as to how much blood has been shed in the name of "God" throughout human history. It explains my disdain for organized religion.
Then you have something in common with Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, and Joseph Stalin.Not that I think disdain of organized religion is an equivalent to mass murder or even a primary cause of mass murder, just that some practitioners of disdain of organized religion have been among the greatest perpetrators of mass murder in history. Hitler used organized religion even though he didn't believe in it, so I don't suppose he fits either category.
Post by: 280plus on July 13, 2006, 04:46:33 AM
In "The Last of the Mohicans" James Fennimore Cooper makes reference to God as "The Being we all worship, under different names."
The whole line, "Tell them, that the Being we all worship, under different names, will be mindful of their charity; and that the time shall not be distant when we may assemble around his throne without distinction of sex, or rank, or color."
Stand, interesting. Thankfully I don't feel the need to massacre millions of innocent people.
Post by: doczinn on July 13, 2006, 04:57:55 AM
Quote
Then you have something in common with Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, and Joseph Stalin.
That's the most blatant attempt at guilt by association that I've ever seen.
Post by: 280plus on July 13, 2006, 05:21:31 AM
Post by: Tallpine on July 13, 2006, 05:29:23 AM
Because they (the leaders, and indoctrinated members, of those organizations) say that you can't, that's why
Otherwise how can they get you to join their group unless they tell you that you are going to hell if you don't...?
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 13, 2006, 08:54:35 AM
Quote from: 280plus
I'm under the impression we all worship the same one God but in different manners. So, no I'm not promoting polytheism I'm promoting understanding and tolerance between the religions.
280, you're a nice guy, and the last one I'd want to argue with. But how can you run down ALL organized religions and claim to promote understanding? I think I know what you're trying to say in all this, but you are saying it in a rather offensive manner.
Post by: Werewolf on July 13, 2006, 09:54:02 AM
They mostly, from the lowliest adherent to the highest priest, figure it's their gol-darned duty to save me from myself and bring me into their flock and that's when I get ticked.
I don't need no head choppin' imman, nor a boy fondling priest or a whore mongerin' chaplain as a go between between me and the creator of the universe. Leave me the hell alone. If I want to commune with the creator I can do it just fine without the help of the local shaman. When push comes to shove I figure the creator's got more important things to do than worry about humanity let alone little ole me (and the preponderance of evidence considering the sorry state of mankind in general is all the proof I need of that proposition).
280's really got it right. All the god con's out there tryin' to preach, steal, *expletive deleted*ck, murder, con and shout their way into heaven are a large part of what's wrong with humanity. Like I said before in a previous post on this thread people need reasons to hate each other and they'd kill each other with or without religion. It's just that its so, so very easy to get people to hate when it comes to GOD!
Organized religion is all about power and control and the shamans thereof have known it since the dawn of history. Even religions like Christianity who's foundation was built on the values of a man who said love thy brother, turn the other cheek and all that other impractical BS uses hate and fear to control it's adherents. And not only do they kill people of other religions for having the audacity to pray to a GOD other than theirs they freakin' kill each other and I'm not even gonna bother listing examples there's not enough bandwidth on the entire internet to do that and besides you all know enough examples anyway.
The world would be a way better place without organized religion. It has served it's purpose. Mankind has outgrown the need for it. Unfortunately religion is so ingrained in the psyche of man that it will be around in one form or another as long as there are people to believe in what ever god happens to be the flavor of the day at the time and so there'll always be folks killin' each other in the name of GOD!
Makes me wonder what GOD thinks of all the killin' goin' on his name? Not much if it's a good GOD - probably kicked back with a six pack enjoyin' the show if NOT!
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 13, 2006, 10:30:16 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 13, 2006, 10:33:29 AM
Quote from: Werewolf
The problem is the organized religion weenies won't let people just live and let live.
As opposed to people like you, who never deride other people's points of view and never argue, rather hatefully, for your own?Quote from: Werewolf
No one can reasonably deny that a prime reason for one group attempting to kill another all through mankind's history has been that one group doesn't particularly care for the deity of another.
I can. Religion is usually an excuse that masks a more practical reason. You think Bin Laden is really motivated by his desire to serve God and live a holy and just life? Don't give him that much credit. Besides that, it is simplistic to caricature religious strife as being based on "not liking the other group's diety." Quote
When it comes to groups killing each other all that's really necessary to justify it is a reason. Absent religion another reason would be found and there would still be groups of humans killing other groups of humans. One group killing another is what humans do; it's who we are; practice makes perfect and we get lots of that when it comes to killing.
There you go.
Post by: 280plus on July 13, 2006, 10:39:58 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 13, 2006, 12:39:41 PM
Quote from: 280plus
It explains my disdain for organized religion.
Quote from: 280plus
I'm not saying religion should be disdained only the organizations that profess them....I want to know how these religions can preach peace and love yet kill each other mercilessly over what are essentially the same beliefs. I'm not sure that's what God wants.
Quote from: 280plus
I'm saying all relgious orders have little skeletons in their closets yet they preach peace and love for your fellow man.
Quote from: 280plus
I condemn the organizations SURROUNDING those religions.
Sounds to me like you're condemning EVERY church, mosque, coven or other religious group, when you can't really know about all of them. Don't you think that will inevitably offend people? FWIW, if you think that monotheistic religions all teach the same things, you're wrong. They all have fundamental differences.
Post by: Werewolf on July 13, 2006, 12:54:24 PM
Quote from: fistful
Quote from: Werewolf
The problem is the organized religion weenies won't let people just live and let live.
As opposed to people like you, who never deride other people's points of view and never argue, rather hatefully, for your own?Post by: 280plus on July 13, 2006, 02:42:55 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 13, 2006, 03:21:32 PM
Post by: Werewolf on July 13, 2006, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: fistful
...all religion as some kind of blood-thirsty, power-hungry, con-job. You think people haven't killed in the name of your kind of skepticism?
There's lots of reasons people kill. Religion is just one of them - a common one when the killing is done by groups.Study a bit of anthropology; pay particular attention to the role of religion in primitive societies and how that role has barely changed in the 50,000 or so years man has believed in a supreme being(s). When you've done that - get back to me. We might have something to discuss then but I doubt it since folks who believe in an anthropomorphized deity as most religions insist that their adherents do are already too far gone to deal in logic and reality.
ASIDE: This is exactly the reason why SEX, POLITICS and RELIGION are usually verboten topics among friends and enemies alike. When folks who think with their hearts get together with folks who think with their heads the sparks usually fly.
Werewolf - OUT!
Post by: Stand_watie on July 13, 2006, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: doczinn
Quote
Then you have something in common with Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, and Joseph Stalin.
That's the most blatant attempt at guilt by association that I've ever seen.Post by: grampster on July 13, 2006, 05:27:25 PM
The Old Testament is a history book of what was before the Incarnation. Can't change it. Don't want to because there is a powerfull message and learning experience regarding how man interacts with man outside Divine Providence.
To characterize the acts of man, post Incarnation, in the clothing of faith has seriously not understood the difference between those of faith and those who pose in the clothing of faith. One who does that, shortchanges himself regarding many opportunities to grasp wisdom.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 13, 2006, 06:15:21 PM
Quote from: 280plus
I'm not seeing anything offensive there. I think you're starting to grab at straws now. If what I think and believe offends you there's not much I can do about it. I'm supposed to change my entire way of thinking just so I don't OFFEND you? Homey don't play that...
That's not what I'm asking you to do. You have expressed a desire not to offend, and claimed that you are spreading "understanding and tolerance." I am trying to explain to you that you are failing hugely. In fact, you seem to be going out of your way to offend. I can tolerate any point of view (OK, certain anarchists have tested my limits) but there are ways of stating it that are more or less offensive. (I've done that too, see the witch thread.) But it's worse than that, 280. In order to be consistent, you have basically rejected the concept of organizing around any set of beliefs or practices. Guess we'll have to give up this whole nation-state concept then and probably the internet too.Speaking of things-that-make-no-sense...
Anthropomorphized deities? Yeah, I'm glad that the Christian God is not like His creatures. Pity the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, etc.
I guess Werewolf's vituperation makes sense if you don't know much about the world's various religions, or the positive contributions thereof, or if one thinks that humans can or should operate without some set of unprovable assumptions (like Werewolf's bias against anthropomorphic deities), and if one thinks that religion should be treated differently from non-theistic points of view. I guess if you study a few ancient societies, you can see how their religion was as backward and degraded as their social and political customs, their science, etc. From there, one might ignorantly conclude that all religion is therefore about "controlling people with fear," or worshipping the Divine Feminine if you're Dan Brown, or some other left-wing angst. But I prefer to think with my head, instead of my heart.
Post by: 280plus on July 14, 2006, 12:08:06 AM
I drag the Jews and the Muslims in there due to their having being going at it with each other AND the Christians for at least hundreds if not THOUSANDS of years with no let up in sight. Sorry if I'm a bit jaded, I mean no offense to anyone.
Post by: 280plus on July 14, 2006, 12:10:28 AM
Post by: 280plus on July 14, 2006, 12:13:46 AM
Edited to add...
Let me rephrase, that was an ALL BOY Catholic HS I went to. The only female on the premises was a lay teacher for Latin. Although they DID start accepting girls a few years after I left.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 14, 2006, 02:47:23 AM
Quote from: 280plus
No fist, I think you are choosing to be offended because you do not agree. I can't help you with that. Call my posts in this thread a wake up call to the Catholic Church. They want to know why their parishes are dwindling? They can start with what I've posted here.
As if they didn't know. Getting offended is a leftist trait - I don't play that, homey. OK, sure there are things that offend me, but I don't whine unneccesarily. Blatant misunderstandings of the nature of reality offend me, but I don't whine about it, I just try to correct it. Even when I'm as gentle as can be, some can't handle the criticism.
Post by: The Rabbi on July 14, 2006, 03:15:55 AM
Quote from: 280plus
Call my posts in this thread a wake up call to the Catholic Church. They want to know why their parishes are dwindling? They can start with what I've posted here.
Edited to add...
Let me rephrase, that was an ALL BOY Catholic HS I went to. The only female on the premises was a lay teacher for Latin. Although they DID start accepting girls a few years after I left.
I am sure Benedict is an avid reader of APS and is taking your message to heart.Edited to add...
Let me rephrase, that was an ALL BOY Catholic HS I went to. The only female on the premises was a lay teacher for Latin. Although they DID start accepting girls a few years after I left.
I am sorry you had a bad experience and are angry at your former teachers. I don't know why that allows you to generalize to every religion. If you want to throw "the Jews" in there because they have been fighting with Muslims, why not throw the Hindus in too since they have been fighting with the Muslims as well? Add the Buddhists for self-immolation during Viet Nam.
But is this attitude any different from the person whose loved died from a gun shot wound and now hates all guns and all gun owners?
Post by: Tallpine on July 14, 2006, 03:38:06 AM
- but I finally "escaped" ). There are NT verses that affirm the OT: "I came not to do away with the law but to fulfill it" ... "not a jot or tittle of the law shall pass away" ... etc (from memory)So I still don't understand how christians reconcile the tale that Yahweh commanded the children of Israel to kill men, women, children of the Canaanites....?
My own personal experience from INSIDE christian churches is that they are indeed a nest of power and control from the leadership, using either/both implicit/explicit threats of divine condemnation if you don't do what they say. And I have also seen personal issues become escalated into spiritual ones - IOW, using the hammer of the church to attack people you don't like for some petty reason. Those of the congregation who would not join in on the "rock throwing" were then attacked themselves, even after they withdrew from the church.
I don't know what experiences Werewolf and 280+ have had, but I don't need to have anything to do with that sort of "stuff" (see, I'm being nice) anymore.
Post by: Stand_watie on July 14, 2006, 05:20:58 AM
Quote from: Tallpine
grampster, to my knowledge no christian denomination has repudiated the Old Testament (and I was caught up in that stuff for a long time - but I finally "escaped" ). There are NT verses that affirm the OT: "I came not to do away with the law but to fulfill it" ... "not a jot or tittle of the law shall pass away" ... etc (from memory)
So I still don't understand how christians reconcile the tale that Yahweh commanded the children of Israel to kill men, women, children of the Canaanites....?.
Orthodox Christian's don't "repudiate" the Old Testament, they simply take it as God's instruction to a different group of people than themselves. Reconcile the tale with what? The notion that God might tell one group of people to do one thing once, and that thereon and forevermore every other group of people not be obligated to do that same thing to entirely other groups of people? Christianity does not require "total war" warfare (common sense might, but that is an aside). - but I finally "escaped" ). There are NT verses that affirm the OT: "I came not to do away with the law but to fulfill it" ... "not a jot or tittle of the law shall pass away" ... etc (from memory)So I still don't understand how christians reconcile the tale that Yahweh commanded the children of Israel to kill men, women, children of the Canaanites....?.
An extrapolation of your logic.
_________
A. I believe that the U.S government is largely a benevolent government.
B. The U.S. Government dropped bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki that killed many innocents.
C. If I don't believe that it is my duty to bomb many innocents all the time, whenever I can, I am not benevolent myself.
D. Supporting Truman's decision to use nukes on many civilians means I have to support a requirement on myself to use nukes on neighbors who play their stereo too loud.
______________
Post by: grampster on July 14, 2006, 06:10:52 AM
The OT is history, a story of what happened. To change it would be revisionism. One can't change what happened. There is a message in that book that is transcendent. We all might not be able to grasp entirely the meaning. So what is the point of repudiation? I think that was Christ's point with his remark regarding the fulfillment or not changing it one "iota". Take the message, look and see what the "cloud of witnesses" tell you. I see people struggling with what they were told and what they knew along with acceptance and obedience in those days. Asking for various and sundry ways to operate with acceptance and obedience. The reader (student) can also observe what happened when some operated outside those constructs. It told a story that no matter how hard a man tried to fulfill works to be justified, he always failed. (Give me rules, give me priests, give me kings, give me prophets. They alway got what they wanted, but for naught.) It sspeaks of the futulity of man and the ramifications of the reality borne of that futility. It was not pretty sometimes.
Regarding the righteous killings? Who can say. Who asks the Potter what He does with His clay? Perhaps the message is that some folks get their just deserts for apostacy, and it ain't pretty. Who know how low on the scale of barbarism those folks who were erradicated had got to. Perhaps it may have been a blessing for women and children to be released from that horror. Who knows? Man has argued about that for a long time.
Personally, I don't attend a church. Probably for much of the same reasons that you give. I am fearful, perhaps that I'll get caught up in some of the futile behavior that sometimes exists when people mingle. I am content (mostly) with what He said about "...where two or three of you gather together, so there am I". There are a number of other references about how I may conduct myself after the blooming of my faith. Some churches, I'm sure are places of proper worship and brother and sisterhood. My church is the people that I associate with and the creation that abounds. I am a Christian beleiver, in case that's not evident. By the same token, each man has a personal choice to make regarding faith or the lack of it. I am not in the position to make that choice for anyone other than me. I could only hope that my behavior might cause someone to think a bit more about his position.
I just think we ought not to paint everyone with the same brush. The point is that the Truth is out there and we are individually offered it. It is what we do with it that makes all the difference in the world. We are advised that faith is made alive by subsequent deeds. That is why we are advised to "test the spirit". Jesus also mentioned that families would be divided because of Him and that he did not bring peace, but also a sword. Powers and Dominions will not go away easily in this world.
I found myself holding the "church" accountable for my misery in the past. I got past that by deciding it wasn't the church, but some people who claimed affiliation with it, as well as me as well. Their spirit was not of faith, and neither was mine, but of the world. Once I grasped this, I felt a lot of bitterness leave me and began a (so far) 30 year journey that has had many ups and downs. Why just this morning I awoke again, grateful for the opportunity to struggle with my faults once again. I'll sometime lose, but I am edified by the inspired words of Paul the Apostle, who one would think would be above the fray, in his great letter to the Roman church.
As for the Roman Catholic Church. It is made up of men and women. Because the men and women are weak or actually evil, does not change the Rock that the church was founded upon. We all need to separate the deeds of men from the Truth of Ages. "Seek and you shall find."
Enough from me.
Post by: Tallpine on July 14, 2006, 07:11:22 AM
Well, if that purported incident is indicative of "God's" character, then I'll pass. That's the same sort of thinking the jihadists have.
To a somewhat lesser degree, the same sort of thinking, combined with exclusionism ("everyone who doesn't believe like I do is going to hell") leads to some pretty hateful and destructive behavior. I've been there and seen it from the inside, where I tried without much success to dampen that behavior. After 20+ yrs of that, I'm done and I've escaped
I really don't care what anyone else believes, as long as they let me live in peace.
But after what I and my friends have been through, can you blame me for not having much appreciation for certain faiths?
Post by: grampster on July 14, 2006, 07:39:57 AM
Post by: richyoung on July 14, 2006, 07:52:11 AM
Quote from: Tallpine
So I still don't understand how christians reconcile the tale that Yahweh commanded the children of Israel to kill men, women, children of the Canaanites....?
1. The Canaanites, (as well as the Carthaginians, and possibly the Minoans) worshiped a diety known as Baal, (with various spellings), often represented as a bull.2. The Hebrew people had a continuing problem with the corrupting influence of Baal worship infiltrating their culture. (Please reference the "golden calf" incident in the desert).
3. Proper worship of Baal required the routine sacrifice of children - after which their bodies were ritually cremated. The bodies were literally put on a satue of Baal with downward sloped arms, which then allowed the body to roll into the burn pit.
4. The destruction of everyone was ordered by God to try to stamp out this hideous practicve, and keep it from further influencing His chosen people.
Post by: Tallpine on July 14, 2006, 09:08:56 AM
Quote from: richyoung
4. The destruction of everyone was ordered by God to try to stamp out this hideous practicve, and keep it from further influencing His chosen people.
Sounds a lot like muslims killing the "infidels" to me...
Post by: 280plus on July 14, 2006, 12:09:11 PM
Quote
If you want to throw "the Jews" in there because they have been fighting with Muslims, why not throw the Hindus in too since they have been fighting with the Muslims as well? Add the Buddhists for self-immolation during Viet Nam.
You know, all that DID cross my mind and I DID think about it. I was just picking the big three for examples. Remember in my original statement I expressed a disdain for ORGANIZED religion, I did not specify which religions. So heck ya, you can throw them in there too. Why do I generalize my issues over ALL religions? Well, for starters, one of God's commandments is "Thou shall not kill" yet they continue to do so and, refering once again to the original post in this thread, it ain't over yet. Like I said, if they all put down their bombs, rockets and guns and tried a little of the LOVE and UNDERSTANDING for their fellow man that they all profess it would go a LOOOONG way with me. Until then I should learn to stay out on religious discussions on the internet.BTW, as a matter of clarification my feelings DO NOT stem from the actions of my teachers 35 years ago. That would be oversimplifying my standpoint. The straw that broke the camels back for ME was all the more RECENT allegations of sexual misconduct. Quite honestly I thought nothing of the incidents I was refering to until these allegations came out. THEN it was like, "Gee, now that I think about it there WAS something fishy going on way back then."
Let's get this straight (no pun intended) they took a vow of celibacy yet saw fit to have sex with naive young boys. If that's not posing I don't know what is. So I should just turn a blind eye and let all that go?
Let's talk collection plate for a minute. Why do I want to put money in a collection plate knowing full well that at least a portion of that money will go to pay off the sexual misconduct lawsuits?
How can I now leave a young boy alone with a priest and be 100% sure he won't be molested? They've fixed the problem? Yea, ok, how you going to prove THAT to me? How do I know there aren't more out there who managed to not get caught and are still active within the clergy? It goes way deeper than you may think. Guilt by association? Sorry, I have no choice.
Post by: Werewolf on July 14, 2006, 12:48:55 PM
Quote from: 280plus
Until then I should learn to stay out on religious discussions on the internet.
Me too - organized religion, bible thumpers, folks who can't seem to grasp the science of evolution, pro union fanatics - all are really HOT buttons for me.I try but I just can't seem to keep my mouth shut on those particular topics.
Post by: 280plus on July 14, 2006, 12:56:24 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on July 14, 2006, 01:31:31 PM
I have noticed that while there are plenty of religiously committed people on this board, I have not seen a single one tell someone else they are going to hell for their beliefs. I have not seen one show disrespect to someone because he believed differently, even unconventionally. But I have seen a lot of venom from the non-traditional towards the traditional. Wonder what to make of that.
Post by: Werewolf on July 14, 2006, 03:19:04 PM
Quote from: The Rabbi
But I have seen a lot of venom from the non-traditional towards the traditional. Wonder what to make of that.
People tend to see what the WANT to see.Some see vitriol - I see straightforward blunt talk.
Beauty - as they say - is in the eye of the beholder.
Post by: grampster on July 14, 2006, 05:06:09 PM
To slander the earnest gentle faith of many because of the obvious failures of the few, makes one wonder about what sort of foundation they stand on to be able to lob those accusations. Perhaps "The pot calling the kettle black" is in fact an accurate descriptive adjective.
I have been an apologist for my Christian faith many times on this forum and THR and maybe even TFL. I can't remember because I'm old and decrepit. But I'll defy anyone to find words that I have expressed that have said "my way or the highway".
Post by: Stand_watie on July 14, 2006, 05:06:50 PM
Quote from: Werewolf
... Even religions like Christianity ...not only do they kill people of other religions for having the audacity to pray to a GOD other than theirs they freakin' kill each other..
Hands up please all the Christians on this forum who have killed someone for praying to another God. Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?Quote from: Stand_Watie
..you have something in common with Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, and Joseph Stalin. Practitioners of disdain of organized religion have been among the greatest perpetrators of mass murder in history.
Quote from: doczinn
That's the most blatant attempt at guilt by association that I've ever seen.
Now you've seen an even more blatant one. Unlike Werewolf's mine was intended to be a statement not[/u] about people who disdain organized religion, but about people who make ridiculous guilt by association sweeping generalizations.
Post by: 280plus on July 15, 2006, 02:01:29 AM
Post by: Guest on July 15, 2006, 02:44:53 AM
He didn't say that. The phrase came about 300 years later in the discussion about the nature of Jesus, where one side believed Jesus was the same substance as God but another group believed he was of a similar substance as God. The difference between the Greek words for the two is one "i(oto)."
/nerdiness
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2006, 03:40:34 AM
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot [iota] or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Jesus didn't say that?
Post by: Tallpine on July 15, 2006, 05:00:42 AM
Yeah, my experiences in several abusive churches over 20+ years has gotten me to the point where I will never darken the door of a church again. When you're on the "inside", sometimes you can't see the abusive manipulation. Maybe there are churches that are different, but I am just too stung by what happened the last time to ever try again.
Finally it got me to thinking that there must be something wrong with the foundation ... I once was blind(ed) but now I see
Mostly I just live by the Non-Agression Principle today. I have to think that there is a Creator, because macro-evolution just doesn't make sense to me. Neither do a lot of things in the bible, as I have previously mentioned.
No one here (to my recollection) has told me that I'm going to hell, but I know what some of you are thinking because that's the way I used to be taught as well. I do sense that some of you are trying to bring me back, and I don't need that. If you are happy with what you believe then that's fine with me. I do wish some christians (in general) would be careful with their us vs them (believers/non-believers) attitudes. Don't tell me that doesn't exist, because I saw and heard it constantly first hand.
Post by: Werewolf on July 15, 2006, 05:36:41 AM
Quote from: Stand_watie
Quote from: Werewolf
... Even religions like Christianity ...not only do they kill people of other religions for having the audacity to pray to a GOD other than theirs they freakin' kill each other..
Hands up please all the Christians on this forum who have killed someone for praying to another God. Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?Of course no one on this forum has done any of those things and neither did I ever say they did.
Think big picture. Think MACRO not micro.
Post by: Stand_watie on July 15, 2006, 05:43:39 AM
Quote from: Werewolf
Quote from: Stand_watie
Quote from: Werewolf
... Even religions like Christianity ...not only do they kill people of other religions for having the audacity to pray to a GOD other than theirs they freakin' kill each other..
Hands up please all the Christians on this forum who have killed someone for praying to another God. Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?Of course no one on this forum has done any of those things and neither did I ever say they did.
Think big picture. Think MACRO not micro.
Oh, wait some Christians are evil murders. Just exactly like some people who disdain organized religion are evil murderers. I guess that puts us both in exactly the same boat murderwise. Are we in the same boat in when it comes to sweeping generalizations?
Post by: Werewolf on July 15, 2006, 06:50:44 AM
Quote from: grampster
I gotta go with the Rabbi' comments on this one. I won't use words like vitriol and the like, but most of the suggestively aggressive points of view have come from folks who brush off traditional faith. There seems to be some who would discount the beliefs of many because of the failure of a few.
The problem is when the few are men of power and they fail the impact they have is great not small and there are numerous examples throughout history of the few being men of power. At the micro level the individual adherent of the numerous organized religions more often than not do their best to live within the tenets of their faith but those individuals in general have little influence on the power structure of their faiths. Thus the few in power are the one's who make history not the many who are not. The concept of absolute power corrupting absolutely applies as much to religion as politics. When the leaders of a religion fail the organization fails with it and it is the organization that gets the blame not the individual adherents.Quote from: grampster
I will allow for the fact that some of those comments are steeped in experiential realities. But an example of the falacy of that thinking might be described in this way: I had to jump out of the way of a reckless driver in a Corvette. Therefore everyone who drives a Corvette is reckless. Poor logic at best, a bad way to define one's position at worst.
If the discussion was about individual adherents in any given religion the analogy presented would be valid but we're not talking individuals we're talking organizations. It was the CATHOLIC church as an organization responsible for the inquisition. It was the Catholic Church that massacred Christians who didn't toe the line in Southern France in 1100's or there abouts. It is/was Catholics in N. Ireland and Protestants that killed each other over their religion. It is Islamists killing in the name of Allah spreading terror around the world. It was Christians that persecuted Mormons. It is Christians and Muslims that persecute Jews because of their religion. It is the organization, the group that does the evil. The individuals perpetrating it are doing so at the behest of the organization or if not at it's behest then in spite of it and because the organization turns a blind eye - an organization led by a man or a few men who have failed to follow the tenets of their faith make the organization responsible for the actions of its adherents.Take a good man and put him with another good man and what do you get. You get two good men. Put them together with a strong willed evil man and you have a 3 man mob at worst and an evil organization at best. Group dynamics are far different than those of the individual. When talking organized religion it is group dynamics that control behavior not the morality and values of the individual. Leaders know that and use it to control the group. Good men in groups can be made to do bad things by strong leaders. AND way too often bad men end up controlling groups. AGAIN - it is no less true of religious organizations than any other.
Quote from: grampster
To slander the earnest gentle faith of many because of the obvious failures of the few, makes one wonder about what sort of foundation they stand on to be able to lob those accusations. Perhaps "The pot calling the kettle black" is in fact an accurate descriptive adjective.
No one slandered the earnest faith of the many! Arguments were made for the failure of the organizations to live up to their ideals because of the failures of the few IN POWER who controlled the actions of the many.Stop reading between the lines. Stop taking every statement personally. Think MACRO not micro.
Quote from: grampster
I have been an apologist for my Christian faith many times on this forum and THR and maybe even TFL. I can't remember because I'm old and decrepit. But I'll defy anyone to find words that I have expressed "my way or the highway".
Find anywhere in either my or 280's posts in this thread where we said words to the effect of "my way or the highway".Why is straight forward, blunt speech written with confidence so threatening to so many? I don't get it now and never have.
ALL THAT SAID:
My main problem with organized religion is not the evil it occasionally perpetrates but that it is an evolved and well developed social structure that has learned to MASTER it's adherents over the ages.
Religion tugs at the the emotional heart strings of the puppets that make up most of humanity instead of it's minds. It promises rewards and punishments none of which will happen in this lifetime but always in another be it reincarnation or an afterlife in heaven, hell, limbo or whatever.
Faith (which is little more than a positive spin way of saying wishfull thinking) is another method religion uses to control it's adherents. Again faith appeals to the heart and not the mind.
Why is appealing to the heart such a bad thing? Because in most cases evil can be undone by just thinking about the consequences of what evil desires. Evil knows that so it appeals to the hearts of people. Bypass the mind so folks don't get a chance to evaluate consequences. And - its easy because the rabble, the unwashed masses in general have neither the capacity nor the desire to THINK! Just pull an emotional heart string, gather 3 or more of them together, watch the show and enjoy the benefit. (think about anti-gunners and the techniques they use - do they appeal to their audience's hearts or their minds?)
The real world is a tough place to live and religion provides people hope that things can be better. But that hope is false HOPE in my opinion. People would be better off reacting to what happens in the known real world than hoping for a reward in a maybe afterlife. In short RELIGION is based on a lot of maybes when it is the here and now reality that counts. (in places where life isn't so tough the power of religion is diminished)
I'd be the first to admit though that many folk need those assurances concerning the maybes. Why? Beats me though I imagine HOPE is a powerful thing for those with nothing else.
Personally I believe that in a world populated by rational people whose world view is grounded in reality religion would disappear. Unfortunately too many people's world view isn't grounded in reality; instead its grounded in wishful thinking filled with ought'a be's and thus religion will be a part of human culture for a long time to come.
I don't have to like but I can sure be a lonely voice in the wilderness against it if I want.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2006, 08:34:59 AM
Quote from: Werewolf
No one slandered the earnest faith of the many!
Please read some of your own contributions to this thread, and explain how I might take them in a way that does not insult me and my beliefs as a Christian.Quote from: Werewolf
the organized religion weenies
All the god con's out there tryin' to preach, steal, f**k, murder, con and shout their way into heaven are a large part of what's wrong with humanity.
Organized religion is all about power and control and the shamans thereof have known it since the dawn of history. Even religions like Christianity who's foundation was built on the values of a man who said love thy brother, turn the other cheek and all that other impractical BS uses hate and fear to control it's adherents. And not only do they kill people of other religions for having the audacity to pray to a GOD other than theirs they freakin' kill each other
The world would be a way better place without organized religion. It has served it's purpose. Mankind has outgrown the need for it.
folks who believe in an anthropomorphized deity as most religions insist that their adherents do are already too far gone to deal in logic and reality. [fistful say: Although this doesn't actually apply to Christianity, would I be wrong in thinking you meant it to?]
organized religion, bible thumpers, folks who can't seem to grasp the science of evolution
Personally I believe that in a world populated by rational people whose world view is grounded in reality religion would disappear.
Faith (which is little more than a positive spin way of saying wishfull thinking) is another method religion uses to control it's adherents.
Are you not clearly saying that all religious beliefs are false, and that only the stupid or weak would believe them, and only the evil promote them? But I guess I'm not logical or realistic, anyway, right?
All the god con's out there tryin' to preach, steal, f**k, murder, con and shout their way into heaven are a large part of what's wrong with humanity.
Organized religion is all about power and control and the shamans thereof have known it since the dawn of history. Even religions like Christianity who's foundation was built on the values of a man who said love thy brother, turn the other cheek and all that other impractical BS uses hate and fear to control it's adherents. And not only do they kill people of other religions for having the audacity to pray to a GOD other than theirs they freakin' kill each other
The world would be a way better place without organized religion. It has served it's purpose. Mankind has outgrown the need for it.
folks who believe in an anthropomorphized deity as most religions insist that their adherents do are already too far gone to deal in logic and reality. [fistful say: Although this doesn't actually apply to Christianity, would I be wrong in thinking you meant it to?]
organized religion, bible thumpers, folks who can't seem to grasp the science of evolution
Personally I believe that in a world populated by rational people whose world view is grounded in reality religion would disappear.
Faith (which is little more than a positive spin way of saying wishfull thinking) is another method religion uses to control it's adherents.
Post by: Werewolf on July 15, 2006, 10:07:18 AM
Quote from: fistful
Please read some of your own contributions to this thread, and explain how I might take them in a way that does not insult me and my beliefs as a Christian.
If you felt insulted by what I wrote that is a defect in you not me and the very fact that you felt insulted indicates a not very strong belief in what you profess. People with emotional strength and will control their own feelings while the weak and dominated allow their feelings to be dictated by others and that is really not a good thing. I for one don't want nor need to have that kind of power over you or anyone else (ick - makes me feel all slimy and dirty like a Democrat or priest or something).Quote from: fistful
Are you not clearly saying that all religious beliefs are false, and that only the stupid or weak would believe them,
Pretty much! I suppose if the shoe fits feel free to wear it.Quote from: fistful
and only the evil promote them?
Never said that - doesn't surprise me that you'd interpret it that way though - what with you taking everything so personal and all. Get it thru your thick skull that what applies to organizations does not necessarily apply to the individuals that make up the organization.The Soviet Union as an organization was evil but most of it's populace were just regular folk trying to get by just like everyone else in the world. Islam is a religion that sponsors hate in its schools but its individual adherents are just trying to get by day to day just like everyone else. I spent almost 30 of my 54 years traveling the world on Uncle Sam's nickle. Been to every continent except Antartica and been within 50 miles of it. Spent lots of time with the locals every where I went. And almost to a man they were all just regular folk little different from people everywhere. The same cannot be said of the countries they lived in nor the religions which they adhered to.Quote from: fistful
But I guess I'm not logical or realistic, anyway, right?
Right... And yes - make no bones about it - that is a personal attack. Religion is just plain silly to me. Were that was all it is? The potential it has to do good is great. The potential for evil is even greater.
And with those closing words I bid this thread - aieu!
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2006, 12:32:10 PM
Your picture of faith is a little out of spec. Having faith really just means putting trust in something. Sometimes that faith is justified, sometimes not. When it comes to the gun debate, I have faith in pro-gun scholars who have researched gun issues and you probably do too. Unless you're a professional egghead, you probably haven't verified all of the things they say, but as far as you can tell, their stats and their arguments check out. So, until you can do more research, you trust that they're right. The overall position, though, is complex and is abstract enough that you can't prove either side correct. Religion is similar. Some religions do make claims that can be checked in the real world. So, evaluate those claims. Some women trust a man who turns out to be a bum, some do a better job of evaluating men, and put their faith in someone more worthwhile. Works the other way, too.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2006, 12:35:29 PM
Quote
Why is straight forward, blunt speech written with confidence so threatening to so many? I don't get it now and never have.
I don't think "threat" has anything to do with it on the part of us religious morons - we're just voicing our disagreement, and noting how much negative emotion you've got going there. I sympathize, though, that people get unduly upset when I state my religious beliefs in a confident, straight-forward manner, even when they ask me to.Quote
It is Christians and Muslims that persecute Jews because of their religion.
It was "Christians," yes. I would estimate that presently, Christians are one of the groups less likely to persecute Jews and most likely to support Israel. Quote
Stop reading between the lines. Stop taking every statement personally. Think MACRO not micro.
You might tell that to the folks who interpret all talk of sin and hell as "they hate me and they're trying to control me through fear." A Muslim could tell me I'm going to hell all day long, wouldn't bother me. Quote
I don't have to like but I can sure be a lonely voice in the wilderness against it if I want.
You're lonely? Sheesh, man, there are a lot of loud, well-funded voices saying what you're saying.
Post by: The Rabbi on July 15, 2006, 05:35:31 PM
Quote from: Werewolf
If you felt insulted by what I wrote that is a defect in you not me and the very fact that you felt insulted indicates a not very strong belief in what you profess.
...(comment deleted because anything I write will probably get me kicked off this forum)
Quote from: Fistful
It was "Christians," yes. I would estimate that presently, Christians are one of the groups less likely to persecute Jews and most likely to support Israel.
Mention this to our friends, the Presbyterians.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2006, 06:28:58 PM
Quote from: The Rabbi
Mention this to our friends, the Presbyterians.
What have they been up to? And would that be PCA, PCUSA or some other Presb. sect?
Post by: grampster on July 15, 2006, 06:48:10 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2006, 06:50:46 PM
Quote from: Tallpine
If you all read your gospels you will see that Jesus made a lot of pointed criticisms of the "organized religion" of his day. As far as I can tell, all of the same and more besides is true of the christian church in general today.
I suppose that point is made from Christian pulpits more often than you think. Of course, we're certainly not worse than the Jewish religion of Jesus' day, but yeah, there's always a lot of hypocrites wherever you find human beings. Quote
And I expect he would get the same treatment today.
That's a tricky thing to consider, when you really think about it. However, every human being is responsible for nailing Christ to the cross, so in a sense you're right.
Post by: Sylvilagus Aquaticus on July 15, 2006, 06:53:56 PM
Kinda ticks me off, since I was raised Presbyterian.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0704/prager_presbyterians.php3
Here's the original source, from PC(USA).
http://www.pcusa.org/stepstowardpeace/
and this...
http://hometown.aol.com/horselovers/presbyteriansforisrael.html
Regards,
Rabbit.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2006, 07:03:10 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2006, 08:23:41 PM
Quote from: Werewolf
Quote from: fistful
Are you not clearly saying that all religious beliefs are false, and that only the stupid or weak would believe them,
Pretty much! I suppose if the shoe fits feel free to wear it.Quote
Quote from: fistful
and only the evil promote them?
Never said that - doesn't surprise me that you'd interpret it that way though - what with you taking everything so personal and all. Get it thru your thick skull that what applies to organizations does not necessarily apply to the individuals that make up the organization.Quote
Organized religion is all about power and control and the shamans thereof have known it since the dawn of history.
Hence we learn that all religious leaders are domineering psychopaths. And I suppose this next bit was meant to extol the virtues of those humble peasants who genuinely practice the Christian virtues - oh nevermind, he said they're impractical, thus showing a total ignorance of the meaning of said verses. And then of course, there's the silly generalization that hate, fear and murder are characteristic of Christianity. Yes, I'd say old Wolfy gets a little hot under the collar about this subject, poor dear. Quote
Even religions like Christianity who's foundation was built on the values of a man who said love thy brother, turn the other cheek and all that other impractical BS uses hate and fear to control it's adherents. And not only do they kill people of other religions for having the audacity to pray to a GOD other than theirs they freakin' kill each other
Yup, my preacher forgives even really big sins if I bring him the head of a Jainist!Quote from: Werewolf
Quote from: fistful
But I guess I'm not logical or realistic, anyway, right?
Right... And yes - make no bones about it - that is a personal attack.Post by: roo_ster on July 16, 2006, 07:00:20 AM
Quote from: 280
How can I now leave a young boy alone with a priest and be 100% sure he won't be molested?
How can I now leave a young boy alone with 280 and be 100% sure he won't be molested?Folks who belong to the same organizations 280 has have also molested in the past. No way to be 100% sure he's not one of them, especially if he was in a leadership position. Leaders of organizations are the ones who cover up the crimes of their members, don't you know...
[^^^ Example of pretty p!ss-poor reasoning, both 280's and my pseudo-response.]
[Channeling Wolfie*]All who don't dis/believe as I do are weak-minded, intolerant, and prone to murder![/Channeling Wolfie*]
That would fit in at many of the more "lively" churches I have visited in my time.
-----------
Quote from: Wolfie
I spent almost 30 of my 54 years traveling the world on Uncle Sam's nickle. Been to every continent except Antartica and been within 50 miles of it. Spent lots of time with the locals every where I went. And almost to a man they were all just regular folk little different from people everywhere.
Rooster CogburnQuote
Shanghai McCoy's my name.
Been around the Horn,
sailed the seas,
seen everything, done everything,
that's how I know people are rotten.
I've seen 'em all.
(You really have to see it to get the full effect of McCoy's performance.)Been around the Horn,
sailed the seas,
seen everything, done everything,
that's how I know people are rotten.
I've seen 'em all.
* By means wholly materialistic and non-supernatural. Wouldn't want to get anybody all up in a lather by insinuating there is any other possibility.
Post by: Tallpine on July 16, 2006, 07:36:33 AM
Quote from: fistful
every human being is responsible for nailing Christ to the cross
I rest my case .....
Post by: mfree on July 16, 2006, 08:30:46 AM
Quote
fistful wrote:
every human being is responsible for nailing Christ to the cross
Uhm, that's unconstitutional isn't it?
every human being is responsible for nailing Christ to the cross
Post by: The Rabbi on July 16, 2006, 09:26:24 AM
Quote from: mfree
Quote
fistful wrote:
every human being is responsible for nailing Christ to the cross
Uhm, that's unconstitutional isn't it?every human being is responsible for nailing Christ to the cross
But if they had...
I'D DO IT AGAIN!!! BWAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 16, 2006, 02:01:01 PM
Quote from: Tallpine
Sounds a lot like muslims killing the "infidels" to me...
Almost. The jihadis would indeed be correct if God actually ordered them to kill infidels. Yet even if we assume the jihadist, al-Qaeda view of the Koran is correct, Mohammed offerred no evidence of its veracity. He claimed the Koran was miracle enough, even though writing a book is not a miracle. Why believe it at all?The Bible presents a story of men who could have no reasonable doubt that Moses and Joshua were not just saying whatever came into their heads. The Israellites had spent forty years in the presence of constant miracles proving it. Their clothing was miraculously preserved through decades of wandering in the desert. They ate quail that just happened to flock in their campsite, time and time again. They ate honest-to-goodness wonder-bread that formed on the ground every morning. They were led by a pillar of fire in the sky at night. They saw the face of Moses supernaturally shining after he spent time in the Tabernacle with God. If al-Qaeda has that kind of evidence of the will of God, let them kill who they please.
But how could God order something so horrible? Is it really horrible for God to arrange for the death, even the violent death, of His creatures? Of course, but who's fault is that? From a Christian standpoint, death is the necessary judgement for human sin and the Bible points out the extreme sinfulness of the Caananites. We're all gonna die, and God's in charge of when - for all of us. In fact, for God to arrange the death of very young children may have even been more merciful than allowing them to grow up in a culture so depraved and hopeless. I forgot to say that this depends on the doctrine of age of accountability, which would indicate that these kiddies would go to heaven. Not all Christians believe in an age of accountability.
No, that doesn't mean I should go out and murder people, and it doesn't justify abortion. If I have to explain that, it just means you don't want to do your own thinking.
Quote
exclusionism ("everyone who doesn't believe like I do is going to hell") leads to some pretty hateful and destructive behavior.
Just like gun ownership means you're going to murder somebody.
Post by: The Rabbi on July 16, 2006, 04:37:46 PM
Quote from: fistful
The Bible presents a story of men who could have no reasonable doubt that Moses and Joshua were not just saying whatever came into their heads. The Israellites had spent forty years in the presence of constant miracles proving it. Their clothing was miraculously preserved through decades of wandering in the desert. They ate quail that just happened to flock in their campsite, time and time again. They ate honest-to-goodness wonder-bread that formed on the ground every morning. They were led by a pillar of fire in the sky at night. They saw the face of Moses supernaturally shining after he spent time in the Tabernacle with God. If al-Qaeda has that kind of evidence of the will of God, let them kill who they please.
I find it funny that people will accept the historical truth of Biblical accounts of wiping out different tribes, but not the historical truth of Gd's command to do so.And I find the Christian view of death really strange.
Post by: grampster on July 16, 2006, 05:50:16 PM
Quote from: The Rabbi
And I find the Christian view of death really strange.
How so?
Post by: Stand_watie on July 16, 2006, 06:04:38 PM
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: Werewolf
If you felt insulted by what I wrote that is a defect in you not me and the very fact that you felt insulted indicates a not very strong belief in what you profess.
...(comment deleted because anything I write will probably get me kicked off this forum)
Quote from: Fistful
It was "Christians," yes. I would estimate that presently, Christians are one of the groups less likely to persecute Jews and most likely to support Israel.
Mention this to our friends, the Presbyterians.Presbytarians, Episcopalians, Unitarians - Christian in name and American by geography, but many of them might as well be European by ideology.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 16, 2006, 06:29:00 PM
Quote from: Stand_watie
Perhaps Fistful would have been more accurate to have detailed more carefully - 'American conservative Christians'. Even then they probably would be guilty of the persecution of "Jews" if you mean our Hollywood, leftist types, (whether of Jewish ancestry or not) of whom there are many.
Actually, with what we hear about Christians in "the global south," they are fairly conservative. Whether that extends to agreeing with us Yanks about Israel and Jewish people in general, I don't know. But are you saying that folks like me are "persecuting" Streissand et al? Making fun of them, maybe; persecuting them along the lines of pogroms, ghetto's, etc.? Don't make me laugh.
Post by: Stand_watie on July 17, 2006, 12:24:43 PM
Quote from: fistful
But are you saying that folks like me are "persecuting" Streissand et al? Making fun of them, maybe; persecuting them along the lines of pogroms, ghetto's, etc.? Don't make me laugh.
Well you know. Harsh words. Not buying their music etc. Was supposed to be funny, but I guess I missed.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 17, 2006, 12:55:55 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on July 17, 2006, 01:04:28 PM
Quote from: fistful
Well, Stand, it's been a fairly tense thread; maybe too tense for such understated humor. If you want to lighten the mood, just give us some quotations from the liberal Jewish folk in question. Should be good for a laugh. Wait a minute. Is there something ironic in calling Jewish people "folks"? Sure wouldn't please the Fuhrer.
It's OK. Volk is a Yiddish word too. Die Yiddische Volk won't mind at all.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 17, 2006, 06:11:17 PM
Quote from: The Rabbi
I find it funny that people will accept the historical truth of Biblical accounts of wiping out different tribes, but not the historical truth of Gd's command to do so.
And I find the Christian view of death really strange.
How do you perceive this Christian point of view, how does it differ from the Jewish pov, and what is so odd about it? And I find the Christian view of death really strange.
A good point with that first part. I was thinking about that as I wrote that post. I guess people will believe the mass slaughter because it is not miraculous, and probably not uncommon in that time and place. But if one doesn't trust the Bible on one point, why believe the other?
I remember somebody on this board complaining about virgin women of some conquered tribe becoming "slaves" of their Hebrew conquerors. Whoever that was, he/she failed to consider the plight of women in that milieu. Slavery meant a job, food, a roof over head. It was probably the best a woman without a family could expect in the ancient world, unless she had large amounts of money or some other special status to protect herself.
Post by: Tallpine on July 18, 2006, 12:30:23 AM
Quote from: The Rabbi
I find it funny that people will accept the historical truth of Biblical accounts of wiping out different tribes, but not the historical truth of Gd's command to do so.
whatever ... that's not the kind of god i want to believe in or maybe they committed genocide and made up the part about god's command to justify it ...?
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 18, 2006, 03:50:28 AM
Quote from: Tallpine
maybe they committed genocide and made up the part about god's command to justify it ...?
If they were ashamed of this genocide, why record it at all?
Post by: Tallpine on July 18, 2006, 04:44:58 AM
Quote from: fistful
Tallpine, what do you find objectionable, that God put a stop to a culture that practiced child sacrifice, and apparently a lot of other terrible things? Or do you believe that God does not have the right to do as He will to His creatures, who kill themselves with their own folly?
God can do whatever he wants - i just get suspicious when people say that god told them to kill somebody
Quote from: Tallpine
maybe they committed genocide and made up the part about god's command to justify it ...?
If they were ashamed of this genocide, why record it at all?Post by: Perd Hapley on July 18, 2006, 08:07:20 AM
Quote from: fistful
Quote from: Tallpine
Sounds a lot like muslims killing the "infidels" to me...
Almost. The jihadis would indeed be correct if God actually ordered them to kill infidels. Yet even if we assume the jihadist, al-Qaeda view of the Koran is correct, Mohammed offerred no evidence of its veracity. He claimed the Koran was miracle enough, even though writing a book is not a miracle. Why believe it at all?The Bible presents a story of men who could have no reasonable doubt that Moses and Joshua were not just saying whatever came into their heads. The Israellites had spent forty years in the presence of constant miracles proving it. Their clothing was miraculously preserved through decades of wandering in the desert. They ate quail that just happened to flock in their campsite, time and time again. They ate honest-to-goodness wonder-bread that formed on the ground every morning. They were led by a pillar of fire in the sky at night. They saw the face of Moses supernaturally shining after he spent time in the Tabernacle with God. If al-Qaeda has that kind of evidence of the will of God, let them kill who they please.
Post by: richyoung on July 18, 2006, 08:11:42 AM
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: mfree
Quote
fistful wrote:
every human being is responsible for nailing Christ to the cross
Uhm, that's unconstitutional isn't it?every human being is responsible for nailing Christ to the cross
But if they had...
I'D DO IT AGAIN!!! BWAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!