Armed Polite Society

Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: brimic on July 12, 2006, 02:54:44 PM

Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: brimic on July 12, 2006, 02:54:44 PM
My current job is near downtown Milwaukee and the shortest route to get there is through some of the worst neighborhoods in the city. I drive that way in the morning as most of the bad apples are still sleeping or shaking off whatever booze or drugs they consumed the day before. After work in the afternoon I take a much longer, safer route home.

Every morning on the outskirts of the bad area, there is a black gentleman who works a busy intersection selling fruit. He is clean cut looking, always wears nice slacks, and a shirt and tie- he would fit in as a executive at any bank in town. He parks his car in an unused parking lot early in the morning, every morning, with several crates of fruit which he bags up and sells to people waiting for the traffic signals to change. He looks like he is doing ok, He probably makes $5-10 every time I wait at that intersection in the morning, which might be about a minute- multiply that by the number of times the light is red during morning rush hour.

About 10 blocks further down, I came to a traffic light where another black man was sitting on a milk crate on the left hand side of the road about 20 yards in front of the intersection. This man was dishevelled looking, bugeyed, malnurished, most likely a crackhead. He was sitting on the side of the road shouting profanities and threats at the top of his lungs to people driving through or stopped at the light. I can't repeat some of the things he shouted but here's a edited sampling
"F- you whitey, I'll f-ing kill you"
"Don't look at me, I'm not you're boy you mf-er"
"F-ing MF-ing F-ing white people I f-ing hate all of you MF-ing MF-ers"
"Oh yeah, I should come over and kick they living MF-ing sh- out ofyour M-fing white asses"
"Mf-ers"

My only thoughts were, I hope he has a drug overdose soon, and my car's console will probably have a 1911 tucked in it from now on. I've been warned about the area I drive through, in fact, my neighbor got mugged their a few years back while on the job.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: 280plus on July 12, 2006, 03:54:50 PM
We have areas and people like that here in Hartford. When I know I'm passing through a bad place at a bad time I take my pistol out and tuck it under my weakside leg so I can grab it quick should I need to.

One time I got dumped off the GWB in NYC at like 2 A.M. because of a detour. Not the most friendly place. I think it was Brooklyn but I'm not sure. I was (naturally) unarmed, being in NYC and all rolleyes. The only trouble I had was convincing the guy on the corner that I did NOT need my windshield washed with his dirty rag for a quarter. shocked Cheesy
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: cosine on July 12, 2006, 04:21:07 PM
Not to rain on your parade, and it's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six, and all that, but I just thought I'd give you the heads up that that might be illegal in Milwaukee. However, if I recall correctly, last year a guy shot another guy in self-defense during a carjacking with a gun he had kept hidden under his seat in the car and the DA refused to press charges.

I'm not a lawyer, and this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it, (how many more cliches can I fit in this post? Tongue).

Stay safe and sound.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: brimic on July 12, 2006, 06:04:48 PM
Cosine- I know the laws and know its illegal, it the only reason why I don't carry already Wink
I have a live and let live attitude and really don't care much about what others do no matter how obnoxious they get, but I have 2 kids to feed and want to come home in one piece at the end of the day. This tool bag on the side of the road was probably nothing but a fairly harmless racist with no where he had to be that day but to sit and try to scare the sheeple. I'm more worried about the not so crazy ones who might try to approach while I'm stuck in traffic.  
Haven't spent too much time in Milwaukee until I started my new job a few months ago and I'm getting an education. 2 weeks ago, 2 people were shot on the route I take to work.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: AJ Dual on July 13, 2006, 06:15:29 AM
What's the route your taking?

I worked a jobsite for a month up in Brown Deer,where the most direct route from my home in West Allis was Sherman Blvd.  Seeing the old mansions that line the street, some being re-habbed by "urban pioneers" is strange. It's a busy throughfare so it's "okay", but one little detour a block to the side...

Going from West to East, taking Capitol Dr. all the way from Pewaukee to Shorewood is an interesting little antropological experiment too.

Another "funny" episode was when a co-worker was visiting for three months from our Indian office for training. He was staying downtown in the nice Residence Inn carved out of the old Marshal Field's in Grand Avenue mall, with access to the Riverwalk and the mall, pretty swank overall.

However, wanted to go shopping for basic sundries, and stuff that's not cheap in India, looking for a Wal-Mart type store, instead of a department store, so he asked the concierge desk where the closest Mega-Stores were that he could access by MCTS bus.

They sent him to Capitol Court. LOL...

The guy is from a well-to-do family in New Delhi, currently living in Bangalore (high tech boomtown), so you know he has had to have seen some pretty bad shanty-town stuff in New Delhi that makes the worst Milwaukee has to offer look like Beverly Hills, but Capitol Court had him shaken. I guess it's the people, and not the scenery...

I asked him about it, his eyes got big, and all he would do is say "Oooohhhhh Not good! Not good!" and then he broke into a pantomime of the thuggish swagger of the young male residents of the area. I was glad he survived, but I fought hard to hold back the tears from my badly supressed case of the "funeral giggles".

He had a good time when I took him to The Shooter's Shop though. After we were done shooting, we window shopped for a bit. When I told the staff he was from India, they jumped into action, getting him to pose for his camera with every sexy gun they had on the wall, including thier Barrett .50.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on July 13, 2006, 06:33:03 AM
If you think you need your pistol to be safe, you shouldn't be there.  Take the long way into work in the morning too, not just the evening.  The few minutes you save isn't worth the possibility of having to shoot someone.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: AJ Dual on July 13, 2006, 06:59:03 AM
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
If you think you need your pistol to be safe, you shouldn't be there.  Take the long way into work in the morning too, not just the evening.  The few minutes you save isn't worth the possibility of having to shoot someone.
Milwaukee has a problem, essentialy, it limps along without a complete freeway system. And the A#1 downtown interchange is under a multi-year renovation, making certain ramp directions unpassable.

On the north side of the city, there is no east-west freeway bypass. Milwaukee was supposed to have a "loop" like most other urban areas, but the north leg of it got fought to a standstill by community pressure in the 60's. So lots of commuters have no choice but to cut through Milwaukee's less than desireable northwestern "crime/poverty axis".

There is one other factor. You've got to take a grain of salt when you hear WI APS'ers and THR's talking about Milwaukee.

To the eyes of our straight-laced Midwestern Wisconsinites, what looks like the "ghetto" would often be a pretty middle-of-the-road neighborhood in a city like Chicago, Detroit, Philidelphia, or St. Louis. I would do anything to not raise my family on that side of town, nor would I hang out there after dark, but you've also got to realize that much of what will freak a suburban Wisconsinite out of thier mind is still a far cry from some hell-hole like Gary Indiana, or Chicago's south side as well.

The "worst of the worst" in Milwaukee is confined to smaller pockets, like a particular block, or apartment complex, that the average commuter on the main through streets would be hard pressed to find, even by accident.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: doczinn on July 13, 2006, 01:07:34 PM
Quote
The few minutes you save isn't worth the possibility of having to shoot someone.
While I would prefer not to have to shoot anyone, I won't go very far out of my way to avoid it. I refuse to allow the goblins to dictate my schedule or my route.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: 280plus on July 13, 2006, 03:10:31 PM
I don't know how it is today but in the West Palm Beach, Fla area when I lived there all the rich folk had NO CHOICE but to drive their Mercedes' and Rolls Royces right through the worst sections of town to get to the bridge to Palm Beach Island and their mansions. I always considered it a kind of poetic justice.

Ditto on what Doczinn said. The route east into West Htfd is much quicker going right down Albany Ave rather than cutting around it and taking the "safe" route. I almost ALWAYS take the Albany Ave route, day or night. When I do I try to keep my eyes open and be aware of what's going on around me. In all the years I've driven there the only problem I ever had was a kid throwing a snowball at the truck on Halloween night. I just kept on a drivin'. Then a couple days later I saw a news story about some kids getting shot on Albany Ave for throwing snowballs at cars. shocked
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: brimic on July 13, 2006, 04:58:29 PM
Quote
What's the route your taking?
HWY 145->Fondulac Ave-> North Ave.   I work near Columbia St Mary's hospital on the east side.If I'm not in a big hurry to get home, I just take North->HWY43-> Brown deer on the way home, it worries me a whole lot less.

It might not be the worst place in the world, but I wouldn't want to be dropped in the area between North, Locust, 27th and Fondulac in the middle of the night from what I've seen driving through the area.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: brimic on July 13, 2006, 05:00:01 PM
Like DocZinn said also, I don't allow goblins and goobers to dictate my life any more than I need to. There is no direct or straight highway route from where I work to where I live.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: AJ Dual on July 14, 2006, 05:31:23 AM
Quote from: brimic
Quote
What's the route your taking?
It might not be the worst place in the world, but I wouldn't want to be dropped in the area between North, Locust, 27th and Fondulac in the middle of the night from what I've seen driving through the area.
Oh absolutely. I wouldn't either...

I'm not trying to imply that WI APS'ers are "freaked out of thier minds" but just that it's the general feeling of the state. I'm just trying to give non WI, non Milwaukee Metro APS'ers some perspective.  WI posters are represented a bit above average, and due to the state's lack of CCW, I think it combines to give others an innacurate picture of just how "bad" our bad areas are.

Of course, even if Milwaukee's ghetto isn't as "bad" as many other cities, it's only natural for us to wish we could avoid them, or that they were better.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Monkeyleg on July 14, 2006, 02:09:39 PM
brimic, when I read your first post, I guessed that you were taking Fond du Lac Ave.

No way I'd drive down that avenue unarmed. I don't care what the law is.

Back to your original post, though:

You'll see similar contrasts on the south side. There's a Mexican guy with a cart that sells some sort of Mexican specialty (I can't read Spanish) who is usually parked near 6th and Oklahoma. He seems to do a very good business.

Drive up 6th Street, and you'll be greeted by glares from some pretty rough-looking punks.

Hell, just stop at a stoplight and you'll often find someone staring at you with blinding hatred in his eyes.

It's going to be a long, hot summer.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 24, 2006, 05:10:42 AM
Quote from: doczinn
Quote
The few minutes you save isn't worth the possibility of having to shoot someone.
While I would prefer not to have to shoot anyone, I won't go very far out of my way to avoid it.
(sigh)

I'm forced to agree with Headless Thompson Gunner on this one (the sane portion of the above quote), and decidedly NOT the "rest."  I, too, think Brimic should consider a different route if he feels unsafe, not "go in strapped" (my words), with a mere preference to not shoot anyone.

Avoid the situation altogether!  It is the better part of valour and avoids "Gun Mentality": i.e., carrying makes me safe and I can involve myself in places or situations best left avoided.  (With the full theorum ending in "I killed someone and it was their fault.")

Seems easy.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: doczinn on July 24, 2006, 05:49:53 AM
I think you have far too much reverence for human life, Ezekiel. Why should it bother me if some scumbag commits suicide?

Would it bother you if the scumbag shot himself in the head? Probably not.

Would it bother you if he attacked a police officer and got killed? Probably not.

Would it bother you if he attacked some other armed citizen and got killed? Probably not.

So why should it be any different if you happen to be the instrument he chooses to commit suicide?

It wouldn't bother me.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 24, 2006, 07:15:15 AM
Quote from: doczinn
I think you have far too much reverence for human life, Ezekiel. Why should it bother me if some scumbag commits suicide?

Would it bother you if the scumbag shot himself in the head? Probably not.

Would it bother you if he attacked a police officer and got killed? Probably not.

Would it bother you if he attacked some other armed citizen and got killed? Probably not.

So why should it be any different if you happen to be the instrument he chooses to commit suicide?

It wouldn't bother me.
Honestly?  "Valid points."

I will think about such.  Smiley

The first step, I think -- and I have ample reason to believe otherwise -- is that I don't identify humans I've never met as "scumbags."  It's a mindset I'll not allow myself to entertain...
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: doczinn on July 24, 2006, 04:55:55 PM
Quote
I don't identify humans I've never met as "scumbags."  It's a mindset I'll not allow myself to entertain...
Nor do I without some knowledge - but by using force to try to rob someone of their property, he proves he's worthy of the name, and thus not worthy of any pity whatsoever if he dies in the attempt.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 25, 2006, 04:11:26 AM
Quote from: doczinn
Quote
I don't identify humans I've never met as "scumbags."  It's a mindset I'll not allow myself to entertain...
Nor do I without some knowledge - but by using force to try to rob someone of their property, he proves he's worthy of the name, and thus not worthy of any pity whatsoever if he dies in the attempt.
Screaming at someone is decidedly NOT "force."  (Original post.)  In fact, short of the immediate threat of DEADLY force being applied to YOUR PERSON, folks have no justification for the introduction of a firearm into the equation: that just get's the ball rolling...

By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter.

Shooting someone -- or thinking about shooting someone -- who screams at you is like swatting a fly with a Buick, and is representative of the sort of "cowboy justice" supported by irreverent gun owners and those with Freudian fear of people different from themselves.

Escalating a situation due to the presence of a nickel-plated metaphorical penis is sad, especially when the moronic introduction of said variable is often what initiates a fatal situation.  "Life is too short for my mere ego to cause a death."
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: doczinn on July 25, 2006, 06:10:28 AM
Screaming certainly does not warrant deadly force. I'm not talking about the particular situation mentioned in the original post; I'm referring to the general type of incidents that people are trying to avoid when they avoid "that part of town," e.g. mugging.

Quote
short of the immediate threat of DEADLY force being applied to YOUR PERSON, folks have no justification for the introduction of a firearm into the equation
I disagree. I'd say that as soon as a person deliberately applies any amount of force to deprive me of my property, I have the moral right to threaten and, if necessary, to use deadly force.

And if you think ego or phallic symbols have anything to do with it at all, you've read far too much Freud.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 25, 2006, 06:45:27 AM
Quote from: doczinn
Screaming certainly does not warrant deadly force. I'm not talking about the particular situation mentioned in the original post; I'm referring to the general type of incidents that people are trying to avoid when they avoid "that part of town," e.g. mugging.

Quote
short of the immediate threat of DEADLY force being applied to YOUR PERSON, folks have no justification for the introduction of a firearm into the equation
I disagree. I'd say that as soon as a person deliberately applies any amount of force to deprive me of my property, I have the moral right to threaten and, if necessary, to use deadly force.

And if you think ego or phallic symbols have anything to do with it at all, you've read far too much Freud.
Can one read too much Freud?  Smiley

I can see the basis for our general disagreement, however: I absolutely do not believe that just any amount of force is justification for the reciprocal use of DEADLY force.  (Actually, think such an idea is grotesque.)  Such threat must come from the immediate presence of DEADLY force and introduction therein -- by the threatened or either party -- is moronic.

Is that a high standard?  "You bet."  Is it the only morally defensible one?  "I would say so."

Anything else and citizens have become nothing but personal Charlemagnes: raining death upon a metaphorical nation [person] because someone laid hand (scratched?) a Roman within the farthest reaches of the realm.

Best defense?  "Avoid that part of town."

Again, this does not appear difficult, to me.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 25, 2006, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: Ezekiel
By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter.
Did you think this was DU, or were you intending to make a fool of yourself with that idiotic comment?
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: doczinn on July 25, 2006, 02:43:37 PM
Quote
I absolutely do not believe that just any amount of force is justification for the reciprocal use of DEADLY force.
Nor do I. But, any amount of force at all is justification for the threat of deadly force, and the will to use it.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: 280plus on July 25, 2006, 03:05:23 PM
Screaming is one thing, screaming and approaching me is another.

BTW I reread the first post and all I was thinking was "New York Stare". You all know what that is? In a situation where someone is yelling or whatever at you as you're driving you stare straight ahead and pretend they don't exist. That's the New York Stare.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 25, 2006, 03:13:23 PM
Quote from: fistful
Quote from: Ezekiel
By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter.
Did you think this was DU, or were you intending to make a fool of yourself with that idiotic comment?
Dude, that's solid (my view), and YOU'RE a dumbass if you do not believe such.

It's like introducing nukes -- BY DEFINITION -- "you" introduced the over the top element.

Read a book...
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 25, 2006, 03:19:11 PM
Quote from: doczinn
Quote
I absolutely do not believe that just any amount of force is justification for the reciprocal use of DEADLY force.
Nor do I. But, any amount of force at all is justification for the threat of deadly force, and the will to use it.
Disagreement abounds.

Are you going to brandish a firearm if a nine-year-old demands your Rolex?

"Loser."

I'll just kick his ass.

The "threat" of deadly force is EXACTLY THE SAME as using it.  (Because, obviously, you feel "justified" in doing so.)

For ANY[/b] threat of force you feel "justified?"

I am seriously considering if you can be trusted with a firearm...
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 25, 2006, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: 280plus
You all know what that is? In a situation where someone is yelling or whatever at you as you're driving you stare straight ahead and pretend they don't exist. That's the New York Stare.
I know EXACTLY what that is, which is why I am NOT threatened and these [other] folks frighten me: their Freudian fear of anything different then themselves, itching to let loose with their handguns, makes me ill.

"They should grow some balls."

This is NOT difficult, unless you've "justified" youself into a corner that -- hopefully -- twelve citizens would not let you escape from if you're an IDIOT.

"You may fire when ready, Gridley."

Sad, really.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: doczinn on July 25, 2006, 03:26:01 PM
Quote
Are you going to brandish a firearm if a nine-year-old demands your Rolex?
No, but if he tries to take from me I'd be justified in doing so.

Quote
The "threat" of deadly force is EXACTLY THE SAME as using it.
Nope. Sorry. Not even close. Try again.

Quote
I am seriously considering if you can be trusted with a firearm...
I'm terribly sorry if refusing to live my life so as to cause all others the least possible distress causes you to fear me. Why don't you come try to take it?
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 25, 2006, 03:48:17 PM
Quote from: doczinn
Why don't you come try to take it?
Because you do not deserve to have it.

Dolly Parton HAS big boobs, you, however ARE...
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 25, 2006, 03:49:59 PM
Quote from: doczinn
Quote
Are you going to brandish a firearm if a nine-year-old demands your Rolex?
No, but if he tries to take from me I'd be justified in doing so.
Wow.  You're AFRAID.  And NOT someone who should be "armed."

EDIT: I thought about this for a bit.

...long pause...

"No."

Don't desire you armed or in my neighborhood.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: doczinn on July 25, 2006, 04:07:02 PM
Quote from: Ezekiel
Quote from: doczinn
Why don't you come try to take it?
Because you do not deserve to have it.

Dolly Parton HAS big boobs, you, however ARE...
Wow. I've tried everything possible to keep this on a logical, adult level, and you've digressed to talking about Dolly Parton's breasts?

Pathetic.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 25, 2006, 04:08:24 PM
Quote from: doczinn
Quote from: Ezekiel
Quote from: doczinn
Why don't you come try to take it?
Because you do not deserve to have it.

Dolly Parton HAS big boobs, you, however ARE...
Wow. I've tried everything possible to keep this on a logical, adult level, and you've digressed to talking about Dolly Parton's breasts?

Pathetic.
I'd much rather discuss them then views that are troglodyte.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 25, 2006, 04:10:04 PM
Quote from: doczinn
Quote from: Ezekiel
Quote from: doczinn
Why don't you come try to take it?
Because you do not deserve to have it.

Dolly Parton HAS big boobs, you, however ARE...
Wow. I've tried everything possible to keep this on a logical, adult level, and you've digressed to talking about Dolly Parton's breasts?

Pathetic.
Your presence in my area is going to lead to a gunfight because someone scratched you car...

I've seen less rationalization in children.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: doczinn on July 25, 2006, 04:13:17 PM
Quote from: Ezekiel
Your presence in my area is going to lead to a gunfight because someone scratched you [sic]car...
Now you're outright inventing *expletive deleted*it. Seek help.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 25, 2006, 04:16:52 PM
Quote from: doczinn
Quote from: Ezekiel
Your presence in my area is going to lead to a gunfight because someone scratched you [sic]car...
Now you're outright inventing *expletive deleted*it. Seek help.
Quote from: doczinn
Today 14:26:01: Are you going to brandish a firearm if a nine-year-old demands your Rolex?
No, but if he tries to take from me I'd be justified in doing so.
"Blow me."  You're asinine.

I think a nine-year-old "threatening" you is significantly LESS dangerous then someone scratching your "possession."

You, who go seeking confrontation with your "gun mentality" of ANY force demands deadly force.

"SAD."

Thinking like this is why many Americans trust not arms for all.

"I can see why."
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: brimic on July 25, 2006, 04:55:08 PM
Quote
I, too, think Brimic should consider a different route if he feels unsafe, not "go in strapped" (my words), with a mere preference to not shoot anyone.
Sure, send me an extra $30 a week for gas, and an extra Ben Franklin for my time per week and I'd consider it.
Letting the threat of violence from criminals dictate where you drive on public streets isn't much different than leaving your door unlocked so that they can rummage through the change jar on top of your dresser.

My time is valuable to me.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: brimic on July 25, 2006, 05:00:13 PM
Quote
I think a nine-year-old "threatening" you is significantly LESS dangerous then someone scratching your "possession."
I think you might have missed some of the news of what has been going on in Milwaukee over the last couple of years. There have been several incidents of 'wolf packs' of kids of mixed ages, with some as young as 9, beating people to death.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 25, 2006, 07:25:44 PM
Quote from: Oleg Volk
The rules of conduct here are what you would expect in any civilized home: be civil to others, don't advocate commission of capital crimes and keep the language and the imagery tame.
Quote from: Ezekiel
Read a book... [sic]
Very well.  I read my dictionary, Mr. Brady, and here are a couple of definitions I found online as well.  
Quote
Escalate:  to increase in extent, volume, number, amount, intensity, or scope

To increase, enlarge, or intensify
The screaming racist bum aside, pulling a gun on someone who is actually threatening or using force against you may very well de-escalate the "encounter" if it causes the bad actor to run away, shut up, or take a well-deserved bullet (if things become that serious).  The mere presence of a gun doesn't necessarily escalate anything, and may often prevent violence.  By your own faulty definiton of "escalate," you're still wrong if the other party has a weapon of comparable or greater lethality.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: 280plus on July 26, 2006, 12:58:44 AM
Quote from: brimic
Quote
I think a nine-year-old "threatening" you is significantly LESS dangerous then someone scratching your "possession."
I think you might have missed some of the news of what has been going on in Milwaukee over the last couple of years. There have been several incidents of 'wolf packs' of kids of mixed ages, with some as young as 9, beating people to death.
This is relatively new to the U.S. (?), in certain countries overseas it is very old stuff. I got robbed by a group of ~10 yo's in the Philipines way back there in '77. Only once though, I thought they were playing but while a couple distracted me another one hit me from behind hard enough to stun me so they could rifle my pockets and run. After that I quickly learned to avoid the groups of young boys playing on the street and confront them ready to defend myself if they pursued me.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Stand_watie on July 26, 2006, 03:55:19 AM
Quote from: Ezekiel
...By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter...Escalating a situation due to the presence of a nickel-plated metaphorical penis is sad, especially when the moronic introduction of said variable is often what initiates a fatal situation...
That sounds like a Sarah Brady quote.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 26, 2006, 04:11:36 AM
I just re-read my most recent post.

"I was out of line."

Not because I think this way, but my expression was classless.

I'll learn to not mix posting and Guinness.

I'll not edit the prior post because, well, "when you're an ass, don't hide it: accept responsibility."
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 26, 2006, 08:41:25 AM
Quote
may very well de-escalate the "encounter" if it causes the bad actor to run away, shut up, or take a well-deserved bullet...
Any sentence that begins with "de-escalation" and ends with "well-deserved bullet" is moronic.

It merely proves the inherently dangerous point of introducing a firearm into a situation where deadly force has not come to light.

"Gun Mentality(tm)"
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 26, 2006, 08:42:29 AM
Quote from: Stand_watie
Quote from: Ezekiel
...By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter...Escalating a situation due to the presence of a nickel-plated metaphorical penis is sad, especially when the moronic introduction of said variable is often what initiates a fatal situation...
That sounds like a Sarah Brady quote.
You read her?

It's mine (the quote), and it is valid.

"I've borne witness."
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 26, 2006, 08:45:13 AM
Quote
Escalate:  to increase in extent, volume, number, amount, intensity, or scope
"Yup."

That's what happens the moment a firearm is introduced into an equation.

Doing so demands that it be done wisely and with judgment: in the face of deadly force.  "That's not what I've been hearing about/seeing in this thread."
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Stand_watie on July 26, 2006, 04:34:30 PM
Quote from: Ezekiel
Quote from: Stand_watie
Quote from: Ezekiel
...By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter...Escalating a situation due to the presence of a nickel-plated metaphorical penis is sad, especially when the moronic introduction of said variable is often what initiates a fatal situation...
That sounds like a Sarah Brady quote.
You read her?

It's mine (the quote), and it is valid.

"I've borne witness."
I hear her quoted frequently by anti-gunners and your statement has as much validity as those I suppose.

Tell us about your firearms and what sorts of penises they represent.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 27, 2006, 03:35:52 AM
Quote from: Stand_watie
Tell us about your firearms and what sorts of penises they represent.
"Nicely done."  Smiley

I own a couple of large-caliber handguns designed to do their job.  Hmmmm, "decent metaphor."
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Stand_watie on July 27, 2006, 03:58:53 AM
Quote from: Ezekiel
Quote from: Stand_watie
Tell us about your firearms and what sorts of penises they represent.
"Nicely done."  Smiley

I own a couple of large-caliber handguns designed to do their job.  Hmmmm, "decent metaphor."
Are you attacked at the gun range every time you "escalate the situation" by introducing your "metaphorical penises"?
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 27, 2006, 07:45:15 AM
Quote from: Stand_watie
Quote from: Ezekiel
Quote from: Stand_watie
Tell us about your firearms and what sorts of penises they represent.
"Nicely done."  Smiley

I own a couple of large-caliber handguns designed to do their job.  Hmmmm, "decent metaphor."
Are you attacked at the gun range every time you "escalate the situation" by introducing your "metaphorical penises"?
Is there a situation at the gun range to be escalated?
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 27, 2006, 08:58:47 AM
Last night, in Ezekiel's bizarro world, the Williamsons were taking a walk in their neighborhood when they were set upon by machete-wielding maniacs.  Before Mr. Williamson even knew what was happening, his wife was on the ground holding her eviscera, as the second assailant hacked off the arm of his youngest son.  He pulled the .357 from its holster and aimed at the nearest perp.  Steel clattered to the ground as the two men ran from the scene.  Waiting for the ambulance to collect his bleeding family, Mr. Williamson reflected on his decision to "escalate the encounter by introducing his firearm."
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 27, 2006, 09:12:39 AM
Quote from: fistful
Last night, in Ezekiel's bizarro world, the Williamsons were taking a walk in their neighborhood when they were set upon by machete-wielding maniacs.
Sounds like we're already at the deadly force level, to me: no possibility of escalation.

Now, walking around with .357 unholstered and cocked in the possible event that I or my family, walking nearby, are machete-wielding maniacs is definitely going to generate a response from me and others: escalation.  Due to the presence of an ugly variable in a situation without deadly force evident, except that introduced by the GUN, "*expletive deleted*it is going to go down."

Now, which world is bizarre?  The one featuring attacking machete-wielding maniacs as "justification", or the one existing in reality?

(sigh)

"Gun mentality(tm)."
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 27, 2006, 09:18:30 AM
So you were wrong to say the following?
Quote
By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter.
You think machete-wielding maniacs don't exist?  That would just be another bizarro world.

Funny you accuse me of having this "gun mentality" when I don't even carry one.
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 27, 2006, 09:24:00 AM
Quote from: fistful
So you were wrong to say the following?
Quote
By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter.
You think machete-wielding maniacs don't exist?  That would just be another bizarro world.

Funny you accuse me of having this "gun mentality" when I don't even carry one.
No accusations friend, it is merely a sweeping generalization of certain behavior I have witnessed -- daily -- from gunowners and "CCW-types" in prior work.

I think "machete-wielding maniacs" are in far less abundance then citizens possessed of "gun mentality."

Good catch on the "ANY", let me re-state (as I should know that, by definition, the absolute proves the fallacy).

"By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter to deadly force levels."  Better?
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Shalako on July 27, 2006, 12:16:33 PM
So let's see here...if three thugs approach me on the street at night, one blocks my frontal progress while the other two block me in from behind, what happens if I:

a. break into my karate stance and thumb my nose like Bruce Lee
b. break my beer bottle and slash it through the air saying, "come on motherf___rs!!"
c. break out my ladyfinger sized can of pepper spray
d. unholster the Glock 19 with Meps and 124gr +p Gold-Dots

What's the freaking difference???

I might actually survive with option d. though.

Maybe I'll just be prepared to unleash any or all of the above options and keep a consultant on retainer to advise the best application of force based on the instantaneous rate of change of the percieved intentions of the attackers? I better hire a good consultant.....
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Ezekiel on July 27, 2006, 12:25:42 PM
Quote from: Shalako
I better hire a good consultant.....
I agree: especially if you escalate to deadly force without evidence of such need being present.

3 to 1?  Maybe, with said "thugs" having done nothing but impede your walking progress, you could get a jury to acquit you if you gun them down.

"Don't be wrong or hire a cheap attorney."

My progress was impeded once, similar to what you say, on a crowded street in San Diego.  They were looking for United Way donations...
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Shalako on July 27, 2006, 01:05:00 PM
I guess my point is that if confronted, I will break into "combat mode". By not remaining passive and being a victim it automatically "escalates" the situation.

So if three guys block my progress at night, they should expext me to:

a. bend over
b. try to fight

Anybody who expects either of those two outcomes is buying trouble. I would not fight to lose and if they expect to pick a fight with me they should expect the worst. Right?
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 27, 2006, 07:18:18 PM
Quote from: Ezekiel
No accusations friend, it is merely a sweeping generalization of certain behavior I have witnessed -- daily -- from gunowners and "CCW-types" in prior work.
OK


Quote
Good catch on the "ANY", let me re-state (as I should know that, by definition, the absolute proves the fallacy).

"By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter to deadly force levels."  Better?
You mean if it's not already at that level?  I would agree that presenting a firearm is a threat of deadly force, as long as you recognize that a credible threat of immediate violence is the same level (threat of deadly force) as drawing a gun.  To state it less technically, being earnestly threatened with a "beat-down" must be considered "threat of deadly force," unless you can see into the future and know that the "beat-down" will not seriously harm you.  This applies regardless of whether the threatener appears to be armed.  To be simpler still, if a person, armed or unarmed, convinces you that they are going to physically attack you, and you perceive a threat of real physical injury, you would be justified in pointing a gun at that person, and being prepared to fire if necessary.

But perhaps you do not consider a bare-handed attack to be "deadly force."  I think it is, unless you're talking about a six-year old.  Even then, Mike Irwin might have a thing or two of which to warn us.  Smiley
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: Stand_watie on July 27, 2006, 08:03:35 PM
Quote from: Ezekiel
s there a situation at the gun range to be escalated?
At every range I've been to there have been people. Some armed, some unarmed. My presentation of a firearm never once "escalated the encounters to deadly force levels".


Quote from: Ezekiel
..."By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter to deadly force levels."  Better?
Better, but still untrue. For example if that were true, police officers would be "escalating" every encounter to deadly force levels by the mere presence of their sidearms. Obviously your statement is a wild exaggeration, a generalization on par with "All men are rapists".
Title: Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...
Post by: 280plus on July 28, 2006, 01:01:56 AM
Yup, the police are a great example of a firearm DE - escalating a situation. In MANY cases most people think he's a cop, he's got a gun, guess I'll do what he says. granted this doesn't happen in ALL cases but  bet it does in the majority of instances.

Here's another, knowuing I have a firearm on me, I tend to avoid situations where confrontation could occur. Like the time the guy was ALL worked up because I left my car parked at the pump and went in for a cup of joe. He was being a MAJOR (expletive deleted) over the whole thing. I wanted to slam him in the worst way but I just walked away and let him think he was all tough and everything. Why? Becausde I was armed. So there we have an example where a firearm actually PREVENTED an escalation in a confrontation.