Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: roo_ster on January 09, 2013, 01:10:08 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20957587
But Andrea Hernandez, 15, stopped wearing the badge on religious grounds, saying it was the "mark of the beast".
After John Jay High School suspended her, she went to court and won a temporary injunction to continue her studies at the school, without the tag.
The federal court ruling overturned that, saying if she was to stay at the school, she would be required to wear the badge. Otherwise, she would have to transfer to a new school.
Reason 1378-712 not to send your children to the government feed lots known as "public schools."
Where they can be videoed nude by must-have gov't issue laptops and have the kiddie-porn sent over the wires with no consequences to the kiddie-porno-purveyors who work for the gov't schools.
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Wonder what 10 seconds in a microwave oven would do to the tag?
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Wonder what 10 seconds in a microwave oven would do to the tag?
Great, for an hour or a day, until the drone notices the calculated count discrepancy and new tag is issued.
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Wonder what 10 seconds in a microwave oven would do to the tag?
If it damages the tag: likely a 10 day suspension with no make up work (a semester of failed grades) and $1000 bill to reimburse/replace a $1 item and prosecution for destruction of state property.
There is no winning except not to play. In other words, move, private school, or home-school.
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Bit overblown. Student has badge at school, which solely has an ID number in it. Student can take it off immediately after leaving the property, and put it in a faraday cage. It's not significantly different than an ID card with a barcode or magstrip.
This should be an argument if badges can be mandatory in a government facility. The RFID part is kinda misdirection.
Re the school in PA. Yes, U.S. Attorney's Office, the FBI and the Montgomery County District Attorney recommended no criminal charges. Because the pictures were taken automatically, and not manually. Yes, it annoyed us. On the plus side, the district got whacked with a $610k settlement and insurance companies scrambled to make sure future privacy-invasion claims will not be covered under policy. Lower Merion School District passed the buck onto the IT department. Pretty much every other school has put out policies forbidding remote video or picture capture.
Yes, criminal charges should have been filled at a minimum. For the encouragement of the others. But it probably would not have led to a conviction. But, it's been handled. I'd prefer "fear of prison sentence" instead of "fear of expensive lawsuit", but it's still a win.
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My kids school uses those badges to run the kids through the lunch line. I like it. It works well
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Bit overblown. Student has badge at school, which solely has an ID number in it. Student can take it off immediately after leaving the property, and put it in a faraday cage. It's not significantly different than an ID card with a barcode or magstrip.
Ummm...
Is it really reasonable to say "You have to keep this ID card, but don't worry you can put it in a Faraday cage after you leave school if you don't wanna be tracked!"?
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I think a budding industry could be lockers-for-rent. In this case, decently secure; in gun-free (i.e. target rich) areas better security. Leave school, go across the street & put your ID in a "bus-station" locker.
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As poor as schools claim to be, I'm going to guess that this tag at most can be read 1-2m so being tracked outside of school would be pretty absurb. For greater distances one would need an active RF tag that has a much higher per unit cost.
I think the student feels that the tag is something resembled from Revelation 13:15-18.
I have been looking at RF tags for inventory control purposes so I know a bit about them. RF tags are a great way to passively keep track of items or people. I can see the school using them to see if a student enters/leaves the school, use it for a lunch ticket, etc. I don't think the school has any evil intent behind using RF tags. Maybe the school has had a problem with non students entering the school or studens skipping out during the day, etc.
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As a TX school employee & taxpayer, I'm outraged at this decision....and not for Biblical reasons. The RFID tracking system is a way for that school district to defraud the state funding mechanism by substituting the tracking data for actual attendance verification. As long as the tracker can see that the ID is on-campus, it counts the student "present".....even if the ID is in a locker or up in the ceiling tiles or in a friend's pocket. Meanwhile, the actual student can be off-campus smoking dope or raiding the shopping mall or worse. Doesn't matter to the district....as long as they get paid for the student being "present"....
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As a TX school employee & taxpayer, I'm outraged at this decision....and not for Biblical reasons. The RFID tracking system is a way for that school district to defraud the state funding mechanism by substituting the tracking data for actual attendance verification. As long as the tracker can see that the ID is on-campus, it counts the student "present".....even if the ID is in a locker or up in the ceiling tiles or in a friend's pocket. Meanwhile, the actual student can be off-campus smoking dope or raiding the shopping mall or worse. Doesn't matter to the district....as long as they get paid for the student being "present"....
I don't think you understand how RF tags work, if they worked how you describe above the theft sensor at the local walmart would be constantly going off from reading the tags on all the easily stolen merchandise sitting on the shelves. Most RF tags have at most a 2 m (2 yards, 6 foot) range in which they can be read.
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I don't think you understand how RF tags work, if they worked how you describe above the theft sensor at the local walmart would be constantly going off from reading the tags on all the easily stolen merchandise sitting on the shelves. Most RF tags have at most a 2 m (2 yards, 6 foot) range in which they can be read.
But if a friend carries the tag for them, it might still work if no one misses the student.
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I don't think you understand how RF tags work, if they worked how you describe above the theft sensor at the local walmart would be constantly going off from reading the tags on all the easily stolen merchandise sitting on the shelves. Most RF tags have at most a 2 m (2 yards, 6 foot) range in which they can be read.
Yep. These are almost certainly used exclusively to increase speed of identification at chokepoints.
They could do the exact same thing with barcodes or the magnetic strip, it would just take a little bit longer. Or they could have a make-work program for low-skilled workers and it could take a lot longer.
As to a friend carrying the tag ... we're not talking about a fully-automated school complex. There are still teachers and faculty. If someone's tag checks in the door (if they even scan on entry) but little Timmy doesn't show up to first period then they know he's skipping - maybe not where, but at least that he is. They might get away with scanning an absent buddy's tag at lunch ("No ma'am, Timmy was tired so I said I'd get his lunch for him.") to get another portion, but that's not a major issue or unique to RFIDs.
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My first reaction upon seeing the thread title was wondering if a school was trying to implact RFID tags. An ID badge falls well short of that or any "number of the beast" issue IMO.
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An ID badge falls well short of that or any "number of the beast" issue IMO.
Perhaps for you and I, but that student felt strongly otherwise.
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We're using an RFID system here at work in place of traditional keys on many doors. Basically, it's because the chips are cheaper than keys, easier to "change the lock" if a chip-key is lost or stolen, and because it does allow security to see what chip opened what door at what time. For me, it's great because I went from carrying seven keys to carrying one blue disc, about half an inch across. My understanding is that reader/scanner range can be adjusted from actual contact being required (our setting) to around four feet.
As to the school story, I don't think it's a problem within the school building. After all, you could accomplish the same basic idea with proper classroom attendance checks and hallway monitoring/CCTV. Where's the privacy interest within the school building for a student?
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Ummm...
Is it really reasonable to say "You have to keep this ID card, but don't worry you can put it in a Faraday cage after you leave school if you don't wanna be tracked!"?
Yes..? Tracking is very short range.
125 kHz. and 134.3 kHz cards are under a foot read max distance. Essentially made for near contact.
13.56 MHz cards are ten meters, max. Realistically one meter.
You'd only need a faraday cage if you're paranoid. Otherwise, folks scanning you must be close and even then, they can only get the type of card and a numeric value. Sure, they could easily clone your card. Which sucks for security. Theoretically, they could ID you to that captured number. But they'd only be able to ID you to within 1-10m meters of active readers. Now, using this same tech for credit cards or official ID would be a bad idea (which is exactly why they've been implemented in passports, sigh...)
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Perhaps for you and I, but that student felt strongly otherwise.
A lot of people feel very strongly about all manner of things.
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You'd only need a faraday cage if you're paranoid.
you say paranoid like its a bad thing
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I think the precedents here (tracking of students is a-ok and suppression of religious practice is fine if we think your religion is odd) are more important than the technical issues of the range of this iteration of the tracking device.
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I think the precedents here (tracking of students is a-ok and suppression of religious practice is fine if we think your religion is odd) are more important than the technical issues of the range of this iteration of the tracking device.
Indeed.
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I think the precedents here (tracking of students is a-ok and suppression of religious practice is fine if we think your religion is odd) are more important than the technical issues of the range of this iteration of the tracking device.
Correct. And I agree with you. I'm just arguing the technology aspect is BS, and should be a losing argument.
BUT, there has to be a line somewhere. Otherwise, I can invent a religion, claim any taxes are an abomination and happily freeload off the government dole (which is encouraged by Bob the Magically Pineapple, blessed be his Vitamin C). This is about mandatory ID in a government facility.
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ALL HAIL BOB !!!!
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ALL HAIL BOB !!!!
and his sweet/sour spiney goodness.
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ALL HAIL BOB !!!!
Bob saves! The end is near! Praise Bob! Insha'Boblah!
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A lot of people feel very strongly about all manner of things.
I forget, he might be one of those free school lunch kids who get all their meals at the school so he would need his "number" to eat.
A lot of people feel strongly that I should pay for their welfare check or that I should turn in all my guns. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them.
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I forget, he might be one of those free school lunch kids who get all their meals at the school so he would need his "number" to eat.
Or maybe the schools have kids buy their lunches from an account funded by their parents (as my daughter does) and the "number" is used to charge lunch to the account. Actually, that's exactly how my daughter's school does it. T'ain't free, that's for sure. I just put another $100 in the account. That'll just about take me through to the end of the year.
Chris
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Or maybe the schools have kids buy their lunches from an account funded by their parents (as my daughter does) and the "number" is used to charge lunch to the account. Actually, that's exactly how my daughter's school does it. T'ain't free, that's for sure. I just put another $100 in the account. That'll just about take me through to the end of the year.
Chris
Mine do this as well. Though it sounds less exxpensive for you than it is for us....
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They did lunch tickets when I was in school.
I still think any number of the beast talk is overblown in this case.
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They did lunch tickets when I was in school.
I still think any number of the beast talk is overblown in this case.
Sure, but "I don't agree with your religion therefore you can't practice it" is still not good logic to see a schoolboard using.
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Sure, but "I don't agree with your religion therefore you can't practice it" is still not good logic to see a schoolboard using.
"It is against my religion" shouldn't be a blank check to do whatever you want either. I thought burden of proof was on the kid or his family to prove it. With Christianity, it is likely a higher burden of proof since they can point to a few dozen other kids who say they are Christian who have no issue with it.
What is the legal precedent for that these days?
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Bob saves! The end is near! Praise Bob! Insha'Boblah!
mglw'nafh Bob R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
I think the girl in this story needs to use economic force on this issue, or at least as much economic force as she can muster in a situation where she is taxed and compelled to pay for the public school even if she doesn't use the school.
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"It is against my religion" shouldn't be a blank check to do whatever you want either. I thought burden of proof was on the kid or his family to prove it. With Christianity, it is likely a higher burden of proof since they can point to a few dozen other kids who say they are Christian who have no issue with it.
What is the legal precedent for that these days?
This is America, wherein "Christianity" is a dominant cultural force. They can probably point to a dozen kids who self identify as "christian" who think getting married to your gay lover is a-ok too, doesn't really reflect on Christian doctrine.
It's true that freedom of religious practice isn't a blank check, but do you really want the .gov to have the ability to tell you what your religion says? Unless you're claiming Christianity requires you to cook meth in your trailer or something equally outside of any actual tradition then the .gov should shut the hell up. Unless the religious practice is a serious felony (and sometimes even then, see conscientious objectors and the draft) the .gov should shut the hell up and stay out of it.
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Bob saves! The end is near! Praise Bob! Insha'Boblah!
Oh, gods, I hope I don't actually start a cult dedicated to Bob... NO SHRINES TO BOB, YA HEAR?
This is America, wherein "Christianity" is a dominant cultural force. They can probably point to a dozen kids who self identify as "christian" who think getting married to your gay lover is a-ok too, doesn't really reflect on Christian doctrine.
It's true that freedom of religious practice isn't a blank check, but do you really want the .gov to have the ability to tell you what your religion says? Unless you're claiming Christianity requires you to cook meth in your trailer or something equally outside of any actual tradition then the .gov should shut the hell up. Unless the religious practice is a serious felony (and sometimes even then, see conscientious objectors and the draft) the .gov should shut the hell up and stay out of it.
Except how do you draw the line? Is there an age test when it comes to "respectable" religions? What about number of followers? Also, what do you allow as freedom of religion, and what do you not? Your claims that meth production is not a valid religious activity is near legally equal to dodging a draft. Both can be felonies. Meth production does not in itself endanger or harm the United States (consumption may, not production). Arguably dodging the draft does directly cause harm.
I don't disagree. I'm just saying, it's an extremely grey areas that lends itself too well to subjective limitations and not remotely objective ones. Legally, should Bob the Magically Pineapple (blessed be his pineapple rings, especially on glazed ham) be given the same respect as Vishnu or Yahweh? Why or why not?
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Oh, gods, I hope I don't actually start a cult dedicated to Bob... NO SHRINES TO BOB, YA HEAR?
Except how do you draw the line? Is there an age test when it comes to "respectable" religions? What about number of followers? Also, what do you allow as freedom of religion, and what do you not? Your claims that meth production is not a valid religious activity is near legally equal to dodging a draft. Both can be felonies. Meth production does not in itself endanger or harm the United States (consumption may, not production). Arguably dodging the draft does directly cause harm.
I don't disagree. I'm just saying, it's an extremely grey areas that lends itself too well to subjective limitations and not remotely objective ones. Legally, should Bob the Magically Pineapple (blessed be his pineapple rings, especially on glazed ham) be given the same respect as Vishnu or Yahweh? Why or why not?
Do some searches on how that stuff is made. There is some serious risk for their neighbors. I am a "legalize it all and may Darwin take the hindmost" sort of guy, but I am not too enthusiastic about such batch chemistry being done by tweakers next door.
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Mine do this as well. Though it sounds less exxpensive for you than it is for us....
We already had a balance of $40ish, so adding another $100 takes us through till April IIRC (from Jan 1st or so). Lunches are about $2.5 per day I believe.
Point is, it's a common method and doesn't automatically indicate a "free lunch".
Chris
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Oh, gods, I hope I don't actually start a cult dedicated to Bob... NO SHRINES TO BOB, YA HEAR?
"Help! Help! I'm bein' oppressed!!!"
I'll build a shrine to Bob if I darn well WANT to! :rofl:
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Oh, gods, I hope I don't actually start a cult dedicated to Bob... NO SHRINES TO BOB, YA HEAR?
Except how do you draw the line? Is there an age test when it comes to "respectable" religions? What about number of followers? Also, what do you allow as freedom of religion, and what do you not? Your claims that meth production is not a valid religious activity is near legally equal to dodging a draft. Both can be felonies. Meth production does not in itself endanger or harm the United States (consumption may, not production). Arguably dodging the draft does directly cause harm. ......
Well, if you don't count the fact that the process results in the production of some particularly NASTY chemical waste which is dangerous .... and the times when the labs explode....naaahhh, you're right, it's harmless.
[tinfoil]
Meth is a problem in my part of the country. It is nasty and people are hurt when the labs go "BOOM!" Neighborhoods are contaminated and housing made uninhabitable.
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Alright, alright. Bad example. Growing weed then.
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Oh, gods, I hope I don't actually start a cult dedicated to Bob... NO SHRINES TO BOB, YA HEAR?
Too late...
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Feverystockphoto.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fmiyajima_buddhist_buddhism_1192197_o.jpg&hash=2444ca37f14b1a9978dbcd88426b14c1e10ca750)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm2.staticflickr.com%2F1427%2F5184812016_eecd50959b_z.jpg&hash=796f1ac9e75eaa28fd44c08989cfc2f0106b4861)
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Pineapple_Shrine/index.php?act=idx
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the distance argument is off, with two button cells the range is going to be extended well past 2 feet. [tinfoil]
see fox news for the vid. [popcorn] (http://video.foxnews.com/v/2026543962001/student-files-lawsuit-against-high-school-over-tracking-chip)
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the distance argument is off, with two button cells the range is going to be extended well past 2 feet. [tinfoil]
Looks like it isn't a passive RFID tag. The video shows a tracking map of the school that appears to have stations that cover about four rooms each.
But the school district also offered to remove the RFID portion of her badge and she still declined, so there's that.
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it still has the number, bar code on each badge. i expect it to come down to wear it, or home school. bet she'll be better off anyway. =)
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it still has the number, bar code on each badge. i expect it to come down to wear it, or home school. bet she'll be better off anyway. =)
That's true, but there is absolutely nothing new about student IDs (or even that girl wearing them), so I'm not sure what her complaint is anymore.
Probably right on the homeschooling, thing.