Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: T.O.M. on January 23, 2013, 04:09:38 PM
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Not that this is much of a breaking news story, as women in support units and semi-combat units (MP's, Intel, Medics, etc.) are already in combat, but it looks like the DOD rule against women openly serving in combat units is done...
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-sources-panetta-opens-combat-roles-women-203034238--politics.html
Gotta say that 25 years ago when I was at West Point, there were some women that I thought would be just fine in combat arms, better than some of the guys. When do you think we'll see the first female SFOD/D or SEAL?
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Which will come first, a female Seal/Spec Ops, or women required to register for the draft.
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On one hand, I have no problem with equal work for equal pay. There will be a cost in lives, both female and male. I'm at the point of concluding that this is part of the cost of a "free" society, along with 2A rights and every other example.
On the other hand, I cannot believe this to be a decision driven by principle, coming as it does from an administration which acts entirely through the prism of policy and perception. Paneta is out the door, and this is intended and timed to distract from something else.
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I call dibs on a female for next CFT. Fireman's carry just got stupid easy.
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This is a bad decision.
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Does this not require Congressional approval?
Or is this more thing we must do NOW, because we can't wait for Congress to act?
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........... When do you think we'll see the first female SFOD/D or SEAL?
There will never be a female U.S. Navy SEAL.
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I don't have a problem with it if all are held to the same standards and not a reduced, unrealistic standard tailored to allow women.
I'm also in support of women having to register for selective service.
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I don't have a problem with it if all are held to the same standards and not a reduced, unrealistic standard tailored to allow women.
This. Should also apply to police, firefighters and such...
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I don't have a problem with it if all are held to the same standards and not a reduced, unrealistic standard tailored to allow women.
I'm also in support of women having to register for selective service.
Agreed. On both points.
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I don't have a problem with it if all are held to the same standards and not a reduced, unrealistic standard tailored to allow women.
I'm also in support of women having to register for selective service.
Absolutely agreed. Equal is equal.
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I have low hopes of it, but hopefully they will tailor combat roles to the skills and abilities of the females (as they should be doing with men).
I used to fly with a female pilot who was an Annapolis grad, went through SERE with the guys, and flew helos in combat support during the Gulf War, including SAR. She had a couple of good stories that involved bullet holes in her helos. She was the best pilot I have ever flown with - absolutely amazing ability and cool as a cucumber. If I was a soldier in a sticky wicket and needed air extraction, she's who I'd pray they sent. At the same time, I used to have to change the water bottles on the office water cooler for her. As much as I would want her to rescue me with an aircraft, I would dread having to count on her to drag my 230lbs even a few feet.
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Do they even have Selective Services any more?
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I don't have a problem with it if all are held to the same standards and not a reduced, unrealistic standard tailored to allow women.
An M4 weighs the same, no matter who is humping it,, with a ruck and everything else.
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The Progressive war on the realities of biology continues(1).
There are likely a very small number of female world-class athletes who might be able to meet the physical conditioning and performance standards of the more vigorous elements of SOCOM. Like less than 100. All of whom would be better off applying their freakish sixth-sigma talents(2) elsewhere and make megabucks.
(1) "The Right believes in biology, but not in evolution; the Left believes in evolution, but not in biology."
----Steve Sailer
(2) Guys who meet the standard are much more common, even in 2013 Obese Uh-merica.
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Do they even have Selective Services any more?
Yes.
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This. Should also apply to police, firefighters and such...
This would be assuming that the objective is to win wars, fight crime, stop fires, etc.
It's not. It's to enforce a political and philosophical ideal of equality. Nothing beyond that.
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This would be assuming that the objective is to win wars, fight crime, stop fires, etc.
It's not. It's to enforce a political and philosophical ideal of equality. Nothing beyond that.
This. A long time ago, in a galaxy far from here, my ex-sister-in-law was in training to become a state trooper. She stood maybe 5'-3" and most likely barely broke 100 pounds on the scale. We were over at my parents' house for dinner one night (my bro and the s-i-l trainee, and I guess I was with some GF or other). S-i-l proceeded to tell us she was now an expert in hand-to-hand combat, and that if any guy laid a hand on her she could have him flattened out on the floor in seconds.
My brother was starting center on an undefeated football team as a sophomore. He came up behind her and put her in a simulated one-arm choke hold from behind. She did a picture perfect grab on his arm, put all her weight into it, and tried to throw him.
Her feet came up off the ground and my brother just stood there asking what was supposed to happen next.
The only other time I saw her that mad was before she and my brother were married. She drove a VW beetle at the time, and before she and my brother left for a date one evening she made the monumental error of saying the beetle was impossible to steal. One of our gearhead friends was present, so he and I told her not to go home after the date, to come directly to my place to retrieve her car.
She laughed ...
BIG mistake.
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Tom Kratman, over on Baen's Bar, had quite a lot to say about such a thing, over the last few years. (Col., Army Ranger, etc. You can look up his info if you don't know it). I asked him if it was all in one place, to point people to. He told me here:
http://www.baen.com/amazonsrightbreast.asp
Not that this is much of a breaking news story, as women in support units and semi-combat units (MP's, Intel, Medics, etc.) are already in combat, but it looks like the DOD rule against women openly serving in combat units is done...
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-sources-panetta-opens-combat-roles-women-203034238--politics.html
Gotta say that 25 years ago when I was at West Point, there were some women that I thought would be just fine in combat arms, better than some of the guys. When do you think we'll see the first female SFOD/D or SEAL?
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Do they even have Selective Services any more?
Indeed. I just updated my address with them last year, got a postcard in the mail from em'.
Funny, I don't think most guys my age think to update addresses with them, even though it's required by law.
I don't have a problem with it if all are held to the same standards and not a reduced, unrealistic standard tailored to allow women.
I'm also in support of women having to register for selective service.
I agree. I have no quarrel with equal rights - for any group! Provided it is truly equal, and not "special rights" for a politically protected class. In the eyes of the law, we should all be the same. Yes, I realize there are pragmatic issues with this. And yes, I also understand the ideological issues around "Well, if you have 9 men and one woman, how many babies can you produce per year? What about 9 women and one man?". It is my opinion that we're far beyond the tribal politics of such logic.
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There will never be a female U.S. Navy SEAL.
This is truth.
In 2001 New Zealand open all of its military to women, including the SAS. No woman has yet become a member of the SAS.
bob
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Women have served in Special Operations Units (just not US ones) since there were Special Operations units, and, in their service, performed deeds of which every US Marine or Special Operations soldier would have been proud of - had he committed these deeds.
The notion that women - physically healthy women, not superhumans - are incapable of special operations service is trampled upon by hundreds and thousands of women commandos in Soviet, Israeli, and other countries' service.
As an example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekaterina_Mikhailova-Demina
She single-handedly assaulted a fortified German position, taking 14 prisoners, and treated 17 wounded men and helped them get to safety.[2] She earned an Order of the Red Banner for her role in the assault.[1]
Only 13 of her unit survived the intense gun battle and all were wounded. Some of the casualties fell out of their trees and into the freezing water but were saved by Mikhailova-Demina, who jumped in and used belts and rifle slings to tie the wounded men to the trees. Seven men were saved by her.[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko
In May 1942, Lieutenant Pavlichenko was cited by the Southern Army Council for killing 257 German soldiers. Her total confirmed kills during World War II was 309,[2][3] including 36 enemy snipers.
The IDF has women as combat divers, fighter pilots, special operatives, etc.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/womidf.html
Will there be less women who are special operatives than men? Sure. But that's not to say women biologically cannot hack it in the special forces.
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I would point out that the physical requirements of a Soviet sniper during the Great Patriotic War are substantially different from a Recon Marine kicking in a door in Fallujah. Simply the amount of gear carried has increased dramatically, and I dare say that in Ukraine, in 1944, Mrs. Mikhailova-Demina likely didn't have to contend with the potential challenge of dragging a 200 pound man wearing 70 lbs of gear out of a burning humvee.
Now, with that said, there should be every opportunity for women to serve, but the minimum physical standards should be calibrated to meet the requirements of the warfare mission, not the lower standard deviation of the mean average for the gender.
As a practical example I was required to meet a minimum of 37 pushups when I was a 20 year old sailor to pass that portion of a PRT (I did more, but that was the bare minimum required). During a damage control drill I had to hold a forty pound steel patch plate over my head, pressed against the bulkhead while standing on the guard rails in the main fire pump compartment so the rest of the damage control party could setup the shoring to pin it in place. I personally found this a very taxing experience with my arms approaching muscle failure. Can I really count on the 20 year old female who is only required to be able to do 19 pushups to be able to physically accomplish the same evolution if necessary?
Military service is a physically demanding job, and there is no politically correct way around that fact that does not in turn endanger lives.
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n Ukraine, in 1944, Mrs. Mikhailova-Demina likely didn't have to contend with the potential challenge of dragging a 200 pound man wearing 70 lbs of gear out of a burning humvee.
She hoisted seven grown men up trees while injured, tied them to the trees, and then advanced on the enemy. Then she killed ten German troops in close combat.
She was in fact an actual recon Marine (a medic, then an NCO in a Marine Infantry reconnaissance unit).
Insert Quote
I would point out that the physical requirements of a Soviet sniper during the Great Patriotic War are substantially different from a Recon Marine kicking in a door in Fallujah.
Fine.
Here are women who passed the physical fitness test of the Australian SAS with flying colors (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/sas-and-commandos-out-of-reach-for-elite-women-soldiers/story-e6frg8yo-1226252850700) and are unable to join up for bureaucratic reasons.
Women also serve in the Russian Special Forces to this day:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi020.radikal.ru%2F1102%2F8f%2F92ec27be309c.jpg&hash=8b1e6bcc4617276fc86b7601290bfa9208b172fd)
This is Alla Bakhtinova, Captain, Russian Special Forces.
The entry requirements into Russian Spetznaz have been designed by taking the Green Beret qualification training and doubling the run distance and the sparring time. Perhaps she is less trained, less tough, or less brave than US SF soldiers. This I do not know. But she's certainly physically fit.
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Micro, no one is saying it can't be done. What you are hearing is the voice of experience on how the US military has "equalized" women in uniform in the past.
As a practical example I was required to meet a minimum of 37 pushups when I was a 20 year old sailor to pass that portion of a PRT ........the 20 year old female who is only required to be able to do 19 pushups
That is PC "equality" in the US military to date.
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She hoisted seven grown men up trees while injured, tied them to the trees, and then advanced on the enemy. Then she killed ten German troops in close combat.
Do you take all Soviet propaganda at face value?
I'm not saying she didn't do it. I'm saying I'm skeptical- I place an automatic flag on any information reported by a Communist government.
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I served with women in non-combat roles. Officially noncombat. Signal units tend to be everywhere, including the "front lines." Thing is, there rarely is a front line anymore. Combat can be friggin anywhere.
It's very simple. Allow women to join if they wish, and keep the standards uniform and job specific. Can you raise an antenna mast? Fine. You can be a 25U. Can you ruck 80 lbs for 20 miles? Fine, you can be an 11B. PT standards are not the best indicator. They're good enough indicators. I had PT gods that could not hang during forced ruck marches carrying their load, plus SAW, plus body armor, plus the kitchen sink. I've had PT gods that could max running, situps and pushups... And couldn't lift a 60 lb radio or carry an M2 by himself. (Fillipino dude, I think he weighted maybe 100 lbs, he was often on profile to INCREASE his weight.) But, by and by, PT scores are the lowest common denominator.
Some female soldiers were good, some sucked horribly, and most were good enough to get the job done. We had an all-female medevac crew, that everyone requested first because they were very good. We also had female soldiers NO ONE requested, EVER. Best and most requested female soldier I knew was Bombe. She was tiny. Like, "How did she get into the Army, even with a waiver?" tiny. She was a wrench monkey, and could fit into engine compartments that no other guys could. Often, one or two of the big guys would pick her up, and lower her into the engine, and she could fix whatever upset down, with no issues. Walking through the motor pool, you'd often see two feet sticking out of the most random places on, in or under vehicles. She wasn't the best skilled wrench monkey (that was the MSG, 30+ years in), but she was a very practical one.
Set the standard, and set it appropriately. Those that make it will do good enough.
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Do you take all Soviet propaganda at face value?
I'm not saying she didn't do it. I'm saying I'm skeptical- I place an automatic flag on any information reported by a Communist government.
She was denied three times for Hero of the Soviet Union, makattak. Soviet propaganda tried to hide the Soviet inequality, not promote it. She was given the Hero of the Soviet Union, Order of Lenin and Gold Star by President Gorbachev on 5 May 1990. Not only because of her actions during the Great Patriotic War. She also served in the Soviet Red Cross and Red Crescent Society, and did plenty of other doctor-hero type stuff.
She was awarded the Orders of the Patriotic War and Order of the Red Banner, during the Great Patriotic War. Which is about as expected for someone not politically correct to get a Hero of the Soviet Union at the time.
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This is a new one.
I was told I don't want women in the infantry because I don't want the poor innocent women I rape to have a gun.
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This is a new one.
I was told I don't want women in the infantry because I don't want the poor innocent women I rape to have a gun.
Doesn't this person know that guns are useless against rapists?
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I would like to see a military that can take advantage of the strengths or skills more inherent in women then men, rather then a military that disregards such in favor of insisting women be men.
It might be a pipe dream, but that's what I'd like. I still don't hold with lowering standards. There should be no reason a guy has to do 37 push ups and the women only do 19.
But even a womans smaller stature can be a benifit (like the lady Rev served with) and could be in combat. She might not be able to carry a fellow solider out of a flaming humvee, but can you... Let's say a humvee flipped and someones trapped underneath, crawl under there and give aid or stablize the wounded till the humvee can be removed? Could you fit?
IDK, having never served, but seems to me I would prefer being in a group with a varity of diffrent skills or talents that could cover a multitude of scenorios, then "one size fits all" group that can only do a things to a certain standard.
Like I said, pipe dream and an idealized veiw of a misty future. For now, in regards to the US Military, I'll just leave it at "if she can hack it, let her go." which includes dealing with the gender politics of the situation.
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I would like to see a military that can take advantage of the strengths or skills more inherent in women then men, rather then a military that disregards such in favor of insisting women be men.
It might be a pipe dream, but that's what I'd like. I still don't hold with lowering standards. There should be no reason a guy has to do 37 push ups and the women only do 19.
But even a womans smaller stature can be a benifit (like the lady Rev served with) and could be in combat. She might not be able to carry a fellow solider out of a flaming humvee, but can you... Let's say a humvee flipped and someones trapped underneath, crawl under there and give aid or stablize the wounded till the humvee can be removed? Could you fit?
IDK, having never served, but seems to me I would prefer being in a group with a varity of diffrent skills or talents that could cover a multitude of scenorios, then "one size fits all" group that can only do a things to a certain standard.
Like I said, pipe dream and an idealized veiw of a misty future. For now, in regards to the US Military, I'll just leave it at "if she can hack it, let her go." which includes dealing with the gender politics of the situation.
There are certainly female advantages.
I say if they adhere to MALE physical standards (and yeah, the APFT isn't a good measure. Fine. So find what IS, including ruckmarches etc) and can hack it, let em do it.
Then, the female advantages will be allowed to shine without the encumbrance of any lack of physical skill (if they're meeting the same standards as everyone else.
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There are certainly female advantages.
I say if they adhere to MALE physical standards (and yeah, the APFT isn't a good measure. Fine. So find what IS, including ruckmarches etc) and can hack it, let em do it.
Then, the female advantages will be allowed to shine without the encumbrance of any lack of physical skill (if they're meeting the same standards as everyone else.
Thought the new APFT was centered around more practical skills than pushups, running in PT shorts and sneakers, and situps?
I agree with the majority of posters here - no problem with women in front-line infantry-combat positions, so long as they can hack the job. No double standards.
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New, better APFT got nixed
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There will never be a female U.S. Navy SEAL.
really? seems like it is already in the works
The official said the services will develop plans for allowing women to seek the combat positions. Some jobs may open as soon as this year. Assessments for others, such as special operations forces, including Navy SEALs and the Army’s Delta Force, may take longer.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2013/01/ap-panetta-women-in-combat-ban-012313
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really? seems like it is already in the works
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2013/01/ap-panetta-women-in-combat-ban-012313
allowing them to try != them making it. Hopefully the SEALS won't drop their standards. I doubt they will
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Do they even have Selective Services any more?
Yep. In order to work for the government and many contractors you need to be registered. You also need to be registered to take get federal student aid.
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There will never be a female U.S. Navy SEAL.
really? seems like it is already in the works
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The official said the services will develop plans for allowing women to seek the combat positions. Some jobs may open as soon as this year. Assessments for others, such as special operations forces, including Navy SEALs and the Army’s Delta Force, may take longer.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2013/01/ap-panetta-women-in-combat-ban-012313
They may try, but it won't happen. If they lower the standard for the women ... maybe.
If there is a female SEAL here is a photo of what she might look like:
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More likely:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkriminal.tv%2Fimages%2Fstories%2F00new_site%2Fhistory%2F15.03.11%2F2m.jpg&hash=a6db9396631b05231bd7d9d408a7e3cde78c6ad0)
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New, better APFT got nixed
Never understood running as part of the Navy PRT. I half-jokingly suggested it be replaced by a practical exertion test composed of putting on a full fire-fighting ensemble and SCBA, going on mask air, and then picking up a vari-nozzle attached to 50 feet of sand filled fire hose and just walking with it for 30 minutes. Must keep a certain pace the entire time. Pass/fail grading.
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They may try, but it won't happen. If they lower the standard for the women ... maybe.
If there is a female SEAL here is a photo of what she might look like:
Until that first urinalysis. They still test for steroids.
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Until that first urinalysis. They still test for steroids.
When did that begin?
They didn't when I was in, or many of my buddies would have been tossed. MJ, cocaine, opiates, ex, but no roids back then.
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Neither of those gals likely would make it in SOCOM's spiffy units. The muscle gal would likely get stress fractures in her lower legs and feet. Gals are more prone to them than guys in the first place and with all that meat on her, her tibia, fibula, and bones south of there would not last though a week's worth of runs or a single ruck march. That is why you see the body builder gals on the stationary cycle when they do cardio.
The other gal is is not lean enough, you can tell by her face. Also likely lacks the muscle needed.
The likely female candidate will have a build more like the little guys (sub 150lbs, close to 135lbs) who make it in those sorts of units: lean & wiry, very efficient, and know how to use what they got to full effect. Like our little medic, who when he taught the combat lifesaver course, always had my oversized self there to assist when demonstrating carry techniques. Little man could move my 215lb self at a shambling pace.
Think an Olympic class or pro champion female boxer or suchlike. Getting the crap knocked out of them before their service would also be a plus.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd3na4zxidw1hr4.cloudfront.net%2Fsite_media%2Fuploads%2Fimages%2Fpost%2Fm%2Fmma%2FClipboard02_jpg_630x405_q85.jpg&hash=1c7298cc5195f3c5ab4553335c5b4fb074837180)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F311499_10150998117442369_81491340_n.jpg&hash=a02891f90a25eb0bb1d8bec1d7ba7762753df2be)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.bleacherreport.net%2Fimages_root%2Fslides%2Fphotos%2F002%2F205%2F571%2F2421202_display_image.jpg%3F1336478534&hash=5d8a77d1295f0c962516c2c329f646284f595158)
Note, none of these gals has any of the bodyfat that provides the feminine softening of features the cute gal in the beret has.
Of the gals I knew who were built this way, maybe one would have had a chance in a SOF unit, maybe a handful in infantry. They would have to struggle mightily to maintain their strength.
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Or, for a mere $6,000,000 maybe she could be the first SEAL:
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Gals are more prone to them than guys in the first place and with all that meat on her, her tibia, fibula, and bones south of there would not last though a week's worth of runs or a single ruck march.
Except, the women I posted images of already made it through dozens of kilometers of ruck marches etc.
And that last lady I posted is a champion Sambist.
I'm going to take photos of what actual female special operations troops look like over your speculation, thank you.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstat8.blog.ru%2Flr%2F0b08daf56c539a32a498380b4cce4178&hash=aa5421af7827e82e7045cb91ed02422d7a7aa79d)
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The fact is, healthy women are capable of serving in combat infantry - and already do, around the world.
Healthy women in the upper-bounds of physical performance - not all of whom look like freaks - have done special forces service around the world, in units quite as hardcore as US SOCOM in terms of physical requirements.
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I was in the first ever mixed gender basic training at Ft Jackson in 77, there was a gal I liked and a Drill was running beside her and she couldn't go as fast as him ( she was barely 5ft he was nearly 7ft ) and he accidentally pushed her face first in the mud, I had a very strong urge to whack him upside the head with the nearest rock.
Later another Drill was asked about women in combat and he said he had friends that were killed by women Viet Cong and that they were just as deadly as any male.
I've never been in combat and unless "they come to git my guns" I doubt I ever will, but I'm pretty sure that most combat can be done equally by both men and women, there will be some weird situations like taking a leak under heavy enemy fire, but by the time a platoon makes it to real combat everyone will know the other soldiers capabilities and will look out for each other ... I hope...
It does seem to me that more and more our military leadership are liberal idjits more interested in engineering ideas rather then winning battles not to happy about that but not to worried about women in combat, of course its real easy for me to say that from the comfort of home.
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The fact is, healthy women are capable of serving in combat infantry - and already do, around the world.
Healthy women in the upper-bounds of physical performance - not all of whom look like freaks - have done special forces service around the world, in units quite as hardcore as US SOCOM in terms of physical requirements.
Probably in countries with a better applicant pool too
I've trained female troops as a drill sergeant. I just don't see it working here
And you KNOW the US military will allow them to perform less than the males and still make it
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Except, the women I posted images of already made it through dozens of kilometers of ruck marches etc.
And that last lady I posted is a champion Sambist.
I'm going to take photos of what actual female special operations troops look like over your speculation, thank you.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstat8.blog.ru%2Flr%2F0b08daf56c539a32a498380b4cce4178&hash=aa5421af7827e82e7045cb91ed02422d7a7aa79d)
what missions they go on? i mean real ones not exercises.
got a pair of grand daughters who are true warriors. they would not cut it in some units. by their own admission. chief reason they give? they couldn't haul a wounded buddy out. to them its an important detail. ymmv
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If it empties the shopping malls and therefore curbs our spendaholism I'm for it. =D
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what missions they go on? i mean real ones not exercises.
I'd recommend you'd read the thread.
But generally, the kind where they kill terrorists. (http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/12/25/israeli-soldier-who-shot-terrorist-im-no-hero/)
Probably in countries with a better applicant pool too
It's quite possible. But I was just talking about the supposed inherent biology.
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All this whimpering and whining. All services have until 2014 to submit waivers to keep women out of certain units. I don't expect to see women In the SOF until they've had a chance to really prove themselves in combat.
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The .mil has already had to significantly lower physical standards for women in order to get enough of them that qualify to make it anything but a token gesture. They want equality? Change the PT requirements so they are the same.
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I'd recommend you'd read the thread.
But generally, the kind where they kill terrorists. (http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/12/25/israeli-soldier-who-shot-terrorist-im-no-hero/)
It's quite possible. But I was just talking about the supposed inherent biology.
I can imagine women playing a combat role, but I find it hard to imagine them fluorishing in traditional military operations. As warfare becomes increasingly technology-based and covert, they will have their role.
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If it empties the shopping malls and therefore curbs our spendaholism I'm for it. =D
But who will make our sammiches? =( ???
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But who will make our sammiches? =( ???
The Filipino cooks like always.
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I have been thinking Obama might start another war and reinstate the draft, I was really looking forward to having a lot of young single women around....now thanks to those darn liberals and their equality stuff gals we be getting drafted too.
Its only a matter of time before the bugs find our planet and attack, well at least folks won't be able to dodge the draft by claiming they're gay like they did last century.
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I have been thinking Obama might start another war and reinstate the draft, I was really looking forward to having a lot of young single women around....now thanks to those darn liberals and their equality stuff gals we be getting drafted too.
Its only a matter of time before the bugs find our planet and attack, well at least folks won't be able to dodge the draft by claiming they're gay like they did last century.
time to get realistic start looking for middle age single women
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time to get realistic start looking for middle age single women
60 is the new forty, as long as a gal can match my immaturity I'll take her our for coffee.
WRT the topic, Forever War by Haldeman is a great book on this kind of stuff.
If the bugs don't attack us first the clones will
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Equal standards will be the cry from the beginning. When it fails to generate the numbers some FA bureaucrat deems necessary they will move to statistical norming. When that fails to generate required numbers the system will move to separate training then deeming them equivalent.
Meanwhile, the time honored American military tradition of fragging will reappear.
Mother Nature is a Bitch. You can pass law, issue edicts, and gender norm until the cows come home but reality will remain reality.
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Interesting piece on Fox News Sunday with an original female fighter pilot and an O9 that used to command Delta. He made the usual remarks about small unit morale and cohesion, along with humiliating conditions in the field. She never addressed those, asking whether we think Peewee Herman (I guess by virtue of the fact he has a peepee) would be a better infantryman than Serena Williams. The broader implication being that, if a 99th percentile woman could pass the PT quals, no other factor matters. I disagree, but since I've never served, I'm not sure how valid my opinion is.
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Interesting piece on Fox News Sunday with an original female fighter pilot and an O9 that used to command Delta. He made the usual remarks about small unit morale and cohesion, along with humiliating conditions in the field. She never addressed those, asking whether we think Peewee Herman (I guess by virtue of the fact he has a peepee) would be a better infantryman than Serena Williams. The broader implication being that, if a 99th percentile woman could pass the PT quals, no other factor matters. I disagree, but since I've never served, I'm not sure how valid my opinion is.
This is what irritates me about the argument. People say "well, SOME small percentage of women would be fine, so we should let them all try!"
And you know what, i'm on board with that, as long as the standards don't drop. I also have been a part of the US military for some time now, and I know, based on past experience, that this sort of social-engineering motivated stuff NEVER results in the same or higher standards, but lower ones.
When Fort sill's REGULAR basic training went gender integrated, standards went down. Drill sergeants were neutered, and we started getting UCMJ action for saying CUSS words. Drill sergeants were severely limited in the physical corrective training we could do. We were limited in how long we'd keep the privates out in the field. BCT went to *expletive deleted* there.
So, when people tell me in a condescending fashion that "other militaries have done this, and they're successful," I don't much give a *expletive deleted*. Because I know that those militaries are probably not led by social engineers with ulterior motives, and those countries aren't nearly as packed with self entitled blissninnies with no concept of what war requires. The percentage of females in the military who expect special accommodation and demand favorable treatment is sky high.
For every one SFC Camille Adams, a soldier I'd go into a firefight with any day of the goddamn week, there are 100 blithering little hooahchicks who think it's cool to wear camoflage, but start bitching and whining the moment things get tough. I've been out in the field with women who whine about the cold, about the heat, about the dirt... but they'll take all the puffing up they can get when they go overseas and spend 12 months on a FOB. Ask them to leave the wire, and a lot of em start singing a different tune. Some do OK. Some drop down from the gun turret and start crying in the back of the truck. Female fighter pilots, i think, are a different story, because the QUALITY of female officers is orders of magnitude higher than the quality of female enlisted troops.
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By general standards, the physical quality of the average Marine is higher then that of the average service member in the other branches.
And in my experience there were few female marines who I'd consider real combat material.
There are certainly women out there who can do the job.
But I agree, it's not about opening the doors to better candidates. It's about feminist social engineering, with a twinge of leftist military-neutering to boot.
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I personally have no problem with the decision in general. But I would hope that women may be excluded just like they might exclude men from certain functions and units.
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http://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/01/la-times-women-in-combat-old-news-for.html
Anyway, the point is that that the Obama Administration is just acting out a James Cameron fetish of a generation ago. This policy shift would have seemed cool in the 1980s, but now that we finally all understand the nerdy fantasies underlying it, it just seems dorky and lame.
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/01/track-and-battlefield-sailer-and-seiler.html
It was widely believed in the 1990s that women athletes were "closing the gap" with men athletes. (Look how fast Flo-Jo is!) In turn, this assumption of equalizing athletic performance was used to justify sending women into combat: obviously, prejudices about women warriors not being able to carry their fair share of their platoon's equipment were outdated.
So, the 12/31/1997 article "Track and Battlefield" in National Review by sports physiologist Stephen Seiler and myself was kind of a bombshell. We demonstrated that, contrary to nearly universal assumptions, the performance gap between male and female runners in the Olympics was widening. This was because the Fall of the Berlin Wall exposed the East German doping program and the Ben Johnson scandal at the 1988 Olympics slowed Western cheaters. In other words, the narrowing of the gap after 1976 had been largely due to women runners taking artificial male hormones. (This was published, by the way, the year before the McGwire-Sosa home run fiasco.)
In conclusion, studying sports' gender gaps offers new perspectives on a host of contemporary issues seemingly far removed from athletics, such as women in the military. Ironically, feminists in sports have successfully campaigned for the funding of thousands of sexually segregated, female-only teams, while feminists in the media and Congress have compelled the Armed Forces (outside of the defiant Marines) to sexually integrate basic training and many operating units, even including some combat teams.
Who's right? Female college coaches have some powerful reasons for believing that coed competition would badly damage their mission of turning girls into strong, take-charge women....
Yet, feminists utterly forget to apply their own hard-earned wisdom to the armed forces: on the whole, deploying young women in cramped quarters alongside young fighting men does not make the women into better warriors, it make them into moms. For example, the Washington Times reports that for every year a coed warship is at sea, the Navy has to airlift out 16% of the female sailors as their pregnancies become advanced....
We can again turn for guidance to female coaches. The main reason they favor sexual apartheid on the playing fields is that in open competition males would slaughter females. It seems reasonable to conclude the same would happen on the battlefields....
...as economists have long pointed out, competition occurs at the margins: runners don't race against the average Joe, but against other runners. And soldiers fight other soldiers. Second, while the moderate width of track's gender gap is representative of many simple sports that test primarily a single physical skill (the main exceptions are tests of upper body strength like shotputting, where the top men are as much as twice as strong as the top women), in free-flowing multidimensional sports like basketball where many skills must be combined, overall gender gaps tend to be so imposing that after puberty females almost never compete with males. ...
Although the unique ease of our Gulf War victory encouraged the fantasy that technology has made fighting almost effortless, the chaos of combat will continue to demand a wide diversity of both physical aptitudes (like being able to hump a load of depleted-uranium ammunition) and mental attitudes (like the urge to kill) that interact to create a huge gender gap in fighting ability.
While in theory it might be nice if we could accommodate ambitious female officers' need for combat experience by negotiating during wars with our enemies to set up separate all-female battles between our Amazon units and their Amazon units, this is where the analogy with sports finally breaks down: opponents in war don't have to play by the rules ... causing our women to be defeated, captured, raped, and killed. Still, if (as, in effect, so many feminists insist) female officers' right to equal promotion opportunities requires that they be furnished with female cannon fodder, there is one proven formula for narrowing the gender gap to give our enlisted women more of a fighting chance. Feminist logic implies that just as our military once imported ex-Nazi German rocket scientists, it should now import ex-Communist German steroid pushers.
I would add that many men in the SOF used PEDs, back in my day. I would be surprised if they still don't, given that law enforcement agencies and .mil are reluctant to test for PEDs. IOW, many men who had the drive to get into the Rangers, Delta, etc. felt the need for roids, HGH, etc. in order to stay there and to be competitive or to increase theior odds of survival. So, women would compete not just against the usual slice of hyper-competitive and motivated men, they would compete against a group of men who are (or were) also boosted by the best PEDs on the market.
That experiece, plus my experience before the service with some hyper-fit & competitive female athletes (kickboxers, power lifters, and others), leads me to look at MicroBalrog's examples with more than a little skepticism.
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...as economists have long pointed out, competition occurs at the margins: runners don't race against the average Joe, but against other runners. And soldiers fight other soldiers.
Except that unlike with runners - who are tested against a single skill, in which a 1% improvement of physical performance means a gold medal, soldiers are tested in a variety of ways, in which mere physical strength, even boosted by 10, 20% will not boost your chances of victory all that much.
Need I remind you about that little thing Samuel Colt did?
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Except that unlike with runners - who are tested against a single skill, in which a 1% improvement of physical performance means a gold medal, soldiers are tested in a variety of ways, in which mere physical strength, even boosted by 10, 20% will not boost your chances of victory all that much.
Need I remind you about that little thing Samuel Colt did?
If you read the entirety of the linked article and its links(0) you would find that when males and females compete in ways that include several/many physical attributes, the deltas are larger than for one attribute. IOW, top male sprinters may only be 1 1/8x (1.125x) faster than top female sprinters, but male top basketball players(1) wipe the floor with top female basketball players. Basketball calls on several attributes where females are lacking and the total task disadvantage is greater than the sum of the disadvantages.
We don't have "Top Men's Basketball Team vs Top Women's Basketball Team" or "Men's All-Star Team vs Women's All-Star Team" games because it would not be fun to watch a one-sided blowout and we, as a society, generally do not like watching women get the crap kicked out of them on the teevee(2). Also, such a spectacle would be Bad for the (Feminist) Movement.
Then, there are issues of unit cohesion, elevated cost to train to the same standard(3), etc., etc. Frankly, it is just a mess and no number of movies by James Cameron or Joss Whedon will make sense of it.
"God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."
Nice sentiment and very helpful, indeed, but not 100% backed by empirical evidence.
(0) Yes, kinda onerous and two links deep, so this is not "Why didn't you RTFA?" snark, but, "Hey, RTA because it is full of tasty factualness."
(1) Basketball using acceleration, top speed, mass, height, among other attributes
(2) But many seem to be just fine with them getting killed in far off lands for the benefit of illiterate pedophile goat herders.
(3) Yes, it costs more to train women to the same standard as men.
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If you read the entirety of the linked article and its links(0) you would find that when males and females compete in ways that include several/many physical attributes, the deltas are larger than for one attribute. IOW, top male sprinters may only be 1 1/8x (1.125x) faster than top female sprinters, but male top basketball players(1) wipe the floor with top female basketball players. Basketball calls on several attributes where females are lacking and the total task disadvantage is greater than the sum of the disadvantages.
Artillery and tank duels are not basketball.
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Artillery and tank duels are not basketball.
Artillery and Tank duels are not Grunt work.
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Artillery and Tank duels are not Grunt work.
So we've conceded that women can be 'allowed' into artillery and armor, and we're just arguing about line infantry and special operations forces?
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Why don't we just put all soldiers on 'roids & level out the playing field?.....
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Why don't we just put all soldiers on 'roids & level out the playing field?.....
Because that'd be unethical or something. =D
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Because that'd be unethical or something. =D
Hasn't stopped them before....
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Artillery and Tank duels are not Grunt work.
Ever bust track on a tank? How about clean the main gun? Recovery operations? (Hauling heavy cables and tow bars etc.) Yeah anyone can sit inside, lase a target and squeeze the triggers. But ramming home 40lb and 50lb main gun rounds requires a wee bit of upperbody strength. Same with being on a cannon crew.
There's more to fighting then just pulling the trigger.
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Ever bust track on a tank? How about clean the main gun? Recovery operations? (Hauling heavy cables and tow bars etc.) Yeah anyone can sit inside, lase a target and squeeze the triggers. But ramming home 40lb and 50lb main gun rounds requires a wee bit of upperbody strength. Same with being on a cannon crew.
There's more to fighting then just pulling the trigger.
I have no experience there, and am not suggesting it's easy. I just assumed it wasn't comparable to Grunt work for the sake of this particular topic.
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Anyway there's no reason to argue here since in a hundred years everyone will be wearing this:
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmKvNANrC3_3KrP0ihRBN-Asj9bpXPpE_1AgNOvhCYLkbjQ5G7Eg)
That, or we'll let our cats do our fighting for us.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv459%2FKpaxUltraMarine%2FWarhammer%2Fhk40k.gif&hash=253a8a46062cc26edf4a4850918eb0351d88eff1)
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So we've conceded that women can be 'allowed' into artillery and armor, and we're just arguing about line infantry and special operations forces?
My reserve unit IS line infantry. I'm just not seeing it man. I'm sure there are females that would make it ok, but I've yet to meet any inclined to be grunts, and that's not implying any slight to the ones I've worked with.
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BigJake: I've served with women who had (previous to them serving in my unit) experience in infantry units. To my knowledge, they did good jobs (enough they were promoted.
My first CO in the Army was a lady whose previous post was commanding a rifle company in MAGAV (Israel's border patrol. They walk through the desert and kill terrorists.)
I've met girls of various ages who've been drill sergeants, infantrywomen, martial arts instructors, tank crewmembers, etc. etc. Are they 50% of the IDF's combat branches? No. (It's harder for a girl to get into combat branches than for a guy, here). But they are not some kind of unusual animal.
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That, or we'll let our cats do our fighting for us.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv459%2FKpaxUltraMarine%2FWarhammer%2Fhk40k.gif&hash=253a8a46062cc26edf4a4850918eb0351d88eff1)
This is terrifing... But awesome.
And I belive Hello Kitty is a girl, so it's on topic! :lol:
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This image used to come with a themed set of custom figures/vehicles for that game.
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Are Orthodox Jewish women integrated fully into the IDF?
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Artillery and Tank duels are not Grunt work.
What scout26 said. I wasn't FA but I know guys that are and slinging rounds into a howitzer requires a significant amount of upper body strength. Pulling the rope isn't the only part of the job.
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Are Orthodox Jewish women integrated fully into the IDF?
Call us back after we fully integrate Orthodox Jewish men. :D
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Allen West not impressed with this policy change:
http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=517&load=7967
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Anyway there's no reason to argue here since in a hundred years everyone will be wearing this:
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmKvNANrC3_3KrP0ihRBN-Asj9bpXPpE_1AgNOvhCYLkbjQ5G7Eg)
....want!!!
Except I'd probably go with a fully encapsulated head area, with a worn-helmet mounted display rigged up to 360 degree UV/Vis/I2/IR cameras so I could "look around" without being exposed.
Looking at the exoframes for moving heavy cargo, and cutting edge space suit designs and what not, the only thing really keeping us from achieving powered armor heavy infantry is a sufficiently compact energy source. The servo technology that responds to limb movement/muscle twitches/nerve activity and the corresponding armor that could be bolted on is already there.
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http://redflagnews.com/headlines/joint-chiefs-chairman-if-women-cant-meet-combat-standards-maybe-lower-the-standards
Saw this coming. The derp is strong with Dempsey.
TL;DR - If teh wimminz can't hack it... just lower the standards.
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http://redflagnews.com/headlines/joint-chiefs-chairman-if-women-cant-meet-combat-standards-maybe-lower-the-standards
Saw this coming. The derp is strong with Dempsey.
TL;DR - If teh wimminz can't hack it... just lower the standards.
Because that's JUST the way to build a strong, effective military! :facepalm:
Wonder what that'll do for retention of the current infantry and spec-ops types...
ETA: ... *IF* they go ahead and lower the standards, I mean. Later in the article, Panetta is quoted as saying that while everyone deserves a chance, that's for those who meet the standards, they aren't talking about lowering them to get women into those positions.
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Dempsey is a retard
He was the tradoc chief., and is the sole reason that drill sergeants are so powerless now
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Who could have seen THIS coming?