Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Battle Monkey of Zardoz on February 20, 2013, 02:08:48 AM
-
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/19/company-with-ties-to-the-federal-govt-designs-unsettling-targets-for-law-enforcement-community/
Now. I am all for LE to get better training, lord knows most of them need it. But this has me worried, the targets. And this particular officer, has me sickened, and he should not be near a badge.
I found while speaking with officers and trainers in the law enforcement community that there is a hesitation on the part of cops when deadly force is required on subjects with atypical age, frailty or condition (one officer explaining that he enlarged photos of his own kids to use as targets so that he would not be caught off guard with such a drastically new experience while on duty). This hesitation time may be only seconds but that is not acceptable when officers are losing their lives in these same situations.
-
Officer Safety :police:
-
I don't have a problem with those targets. Not all threats come from tough guys in hoodies.
These targets teach everyone who uses them to realize that ANYONE can be a threat. I think they can be especially useful at the end of a training cycle that focused on non-silhouttes or all male targets.
-
Sad... but even as rabidly anti-LEO as I am, I don't have a problem with these.
Wish I could buy some, actually. Not just soccer moms and kids, but dudes in suits with briefcases... bikers... trailer park prom queen meth heads... high school quarterback heroes... and so on.
-
Wish I could buy some, actually. Not just soccer moms and kids, but dudes in suits with briefcases... bikers... trailer park prom queen meth heads... high school quarterback heroes... and so on.
You can't buy THESE targets, they are ONLY for law enforcement. Cannot and will not sell to non-Law Enforcement. (I called and asked.)
-
I think most are questioning the timing, not the content.
-
What's odd about the ones pictured, is that no one looks very angry. They're just standing there, pointing a handgun.
-
You can't buy THESE targets, they are ONLY for law enforcement. Cannot and will not sell to non-Law Enforcement. (I called and asked.)
I would think this could inspire a market for targets with a different subject, which would not be sold to law enforcement.
And with the pictures I have in mind, I'll bet the law enforcement agencies who use these targets wouldn't be happy at all with the alternative. >:D
-
I think most are questioning the timing, not the content.
These types of targets have been sold for years.
-
I would think this could inspire a market for targets with a different subject, which would not be sold to law enforcement.
And with the pictures I have in mind, I'll bet the law enforcement agencies who use these targets wouldn't be happy at all with the alternative. >:D
I had this thought, as well.
[ar15] :police:
ETA: I think the police need to practice shooting at LEO-shaped enemies, the same as pregnant soccer moms and 12 year olds with pistols. It's an infrequent target, sure (rogue LEO)... but it's one that jars the sensibilities just as much as that pregnant lady or little kid.
I find it mildly insulting that the company in question doesn't offer a LEO shaped target to go with these "innocents."
-
You can't buy THESE targets, they are ONLY for law enforcement. Cannot and will not sell to non-Law Enforcement. (I called and asked.)
Bullshit. There's not a law anywhere saying you can't sell paper with pictures of people on them. Will not I believe.
I was kinda "eh" about the whole thing. I don't actually think these make LEO's more inclined to make bad shoot decisions. And they could legitimatly help training. Probably won't be used in a way that does so.
I did have the thought that a LEO w/ drawn weapon could be a valid target for exactly the same training, for LEO's and Civilians alike. Didn't see one of those for sale though........
-
I don't have a problem with those targets. Not all threats come from tough guys in hoodies.
No. Sometimes they carry badges. But those targets will get you some extra attention and probably a visit. My issue was with the dumb *expletive deleted*it that uses pictures of his own children. That idiot needs to have a different career
-
No. Sometimes they carry badges. But those targets will get you some extra attention and probably a visit. My issue was with the dumb *expletive deleted* that uses pictures of his own children. That idiot needs to have a different career
Why, exactly? If the point of the exercise is training for emotionally uncomfortable shoots, I can think of few stimuli that would provoke a stronger "Don't shoot!" response.
-
No. Sometimes they carry badges. But those targets will get you some extra attention and probably a visit. My issue was with the dumb *expletive deleted* that uses pictures of his own children. That idiot needs to have a different career
Agreed. Dude is a head case and unsuitable for the exercise of authority.
Why, exactly? If the point of the exercise is training for emotionally uncomfortable shoots, I can think of few stimuli that would provoke a stronger "Don't shoot!" response.
Sometimes an instinctual hesitation is A Good Thing. Gonna take some serious extra thought for me to drop the hammer on a child. Especially my own children.
Not sure if I want that to NOT give me pause. I am not in Viet-MFing-Nam and neither are our domestic LEOs.
-
Well airsoft-playing kiddies better watch out!
-
What would happen to anyone offering products based on reversal of roles? One could reasonable expect an inquiry from some three letter organizations at the state or federal level. That is what I find objectionable.
-
Agreed. Dude is a head case and unsuitable for the exercise of authority.
Sometimes an instinctual hesitation is A Good Thing. Gonna take some serious extra thought for me to drop the hammer on a child. Especially my own children.
Not sure if I want that to NOT give me pause. I am not in Viet-MFing-Nam and neither are our domestic LEOs.
That was my thought with that quote. Some targets SHOULD give the cops extra hesitation. I don't want cops to "automatically" shoot anyone with a gun because that was what they were trained to do. Some jurisdictions seem have too many issues with trigger happy cops already based on some of the news reports.
Seriously, why would you put up targets of your own kids? I would not want to be looking in the house for a burglar after hearing a noise, see my kid in the hallway and have a practiced habit of shooting him based on range practice. That is just nuts to me.
I found while speaking with officers and trainers in the law enforcement community that there is a hesitation on the part of cops when deadly force is required on subjects with atypical age, frailty or condition (one officer explaining that he enlarged photos of his own kids to use as targets so that he would not be caught off guard with such a drastically new experience while on duty). This hesitation time may be only seconds but that is not acceptable when officers are losing their lives in these same situations.
Those targets are atypical for a reason.
-
Is it too late to complain that all the targets pictured are of white people?
Or is that because they are "unusual" or "rare" targets? =| :facepalm:
-
Is it too late to complain that all the targets pictured are of white people?
Or is that because they are "unusual" or "rare" targets? =| :facepalm:
Obviously it's to train officers not to Hoot black people!
-
I've done business with LE Targets before, buying radio headsets from them several times for work. Nice enough folks to deal with, good prices, but this atypical target thing gives me pause. I just cannot see the justification for this, despite some of what has been said here. I may contact them, let them know there will be no further purchases from them and why that is.
-
If a trainer (police or otherwise) wants to put one of these out every now and again to keep people on their toes or prove a point, fine. As far as regular practice, I see them as training the wrong response.
When I'm thinking about this concept, the question I'm trying to answer is this: On average, are these kinds of targets more likely to save a police officer's life by reducing their compunctions to shooting kids and pregnant women or are they more likely to train officers to make tragic bad shoots? My gut reaction is the latter. As rare as 7 year old grinning armed robbers are, and as common as 7 year-olds playing cowboys and Indians - or cops and robbers or Rangers and Taliban or whatever they play these days - focusing on this kind of training would be stupid. I think they are more likely to reduce hesitation in situations where it would do harm than to reduce hesitation where it would do good.
Here's some interesting info for 2009 (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2009/feloniouslykilled.html)
Profile of alleged known assailants
In 2009, 41 alleged offenders were identified in connection with the 48 law enforcement officers feloniously killed. Of those offenders, the following characteristics are known:
The average age of the alleged offenders was 32 years old.
The average height was 5 feet 10 inches tall, and the average weight was 181 pounds.
39 of the alleged offenders were male; 2 were female.
24 of the alleged offenders were white and 17 were black.
33 of the 41 offenders had prior criminal arrests.
13 of the alleged offenders were under judicial supervision at the time of the incidents.
2 of the alleged offenders were intoxicated or under the influence of alcohol at the time of the fatal incidents.
This looks like the kind of thing that makes liability lawyers need to wash their sheets in the morning. "Have you, or have you not, actually been conditioning, programming even, your officers to shoot small children?"
-
http://youtu.be/cRXNNqNfQBs
-
This is a direct result of the "officer safety" catch all that is synonymous with "was just following orders". It ties into the militarization of police officers where most LE see themselves akin to a military branch. LE officers are civilians. PERIOD! No matter how they scream and want to justify it otherwise, civilians they are and always will be. No matter how they set up a non judicial punishment system within their dept, as in excessive use of force (that's aggravated assault for us non badge wearing folk) gets a reprimand, letter in a file, suspension with pay (non badge wearing folk get arrested, lose our job, face a grand jury and most likely go to jail).
Good write up about this from 2011:
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/how-police-are-turning-military (http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/how-police-are-turning-military)
Perceiving yourself as an operator plasters over the difference between a law enforcement officer serving a warrant and a commando in a war zone. The former Mirandizes, the latter vaporizes, as the saying goes — and as the recent Osama bin Laden raid vividly illustrated.
Targeted killing is legal in a war zone but not on the streets of Anytown, USA. The war on drugs has done incalculable damage to the character of law enforcement by encouraging police officers to forget they are civilians.
True, they are civilians charged with enforcing the law and are empowered to use force to do so — but they are civilians nonetheless. When police officers refer to their fellow citizens as civilians and mean to exclude themselves from that category, they’ve mentally leapt from enforcing the law to destroying the enemies of the state. That’s incompatible with a free society
.
[/b]
Military and police work should be separate animals. The reasons for that are crystal clear. A soldiers job is to find the enemy and kill them. LE job is to protect the public and arrest criminals (remember "peace officers").
It's past time for us citizens to demand that our DAs bring criminal charges against LE when in the same circumstances criminal charges would be a given for any non LE. Immunity is not a blanket excuse.
-
“Considering that the company has landed $5.5 million worth of contracts with the federal government,” Riggs notes, “it might also be interesting to know if these targets are being used by federal law enforcement agents.”
Gotta wonder if these are the federal agencies buying up billions of rounds of ammo. I call that a clue.
-
Gotta wonder if these are the federal agencies buying up billions of rounds of ammo. I call that a clue.
Check it out for yourself. http://www.usaspending.gov/explore?frompage=contracts&tab=By%20Prime%20Awardee&contractorid=792861783&contractorname=LAW%20ENFORCEMENT%20TARGETS%20INC%20%20%20&frompage=contracts&comingfrom=searchresults&fiscal_year=all (http://www.usaspending.gov/explore?frompage=contracts&tab=By%20Prime%20Awardee&contractorid=792861783&contractorname=LAW%20ENFORCEMENT%20TARGETS%20INC%20%20%20&frompage=contracts&comingfrom=searchresults&fiscal_year=all)
-
Check it out for yourself. http://www.usaspending.gov/explore?frompage=contracts&tab=By%20Prime%20Awardee&contractorid=792861783&contractorname=LAW%20ENFORCEMENT%20TARGETS%20INC%20%20%20&frompage=contracts&comingfrom=searchresults&fiscal_year=all
Shocking...
I can see legitimate use for those targets for local LEOs in training to deal with school shootings or domestic violence incidents- they don't all fit the same mold and its not far fetched to see a teen shooting his classmates or a pregnant woman going nutso and killing her own kids, stuff like this happens and Deity bless the cops who have to respond to such incidents.
OTOH, the DOD and DHS have NO legitimate reason whatsoever to be using such targets. They aren't responding to domestic disputes or school shooting, they aren't supposed to be in people's bedrooms or in public parks or schools.
So... what is the purpose of them buying up millions of these targets for 'training purposes?'
This sort of reminds me of stories I've read about the desensitizing training the 'Hitler Youth' and or young SS recruits received. Kids were given German Shepard puppies to have and take care of, and after a certain period of time the kids were forced to kill the dogs with their bare hands in order to break their empathy for living things and make them reliable killers.
Somehow, I find it fairly easy to imagine goon squads 'training' by taking turns firing at these targets posted in front of a freshly dug shallow pit.
-
Check it out for yourself. http://www.usaspending.gov/explore?frompage=contracts&tab=By%20Prime%20Awardee&contractorid=792861783&contractorname=LAW%20ENFORCEMENT%20TARGETS%20INC%20%20%20&frompage=contracts&comingfrom=searchresults&fiscal_year=all (http://www.usaspending.gov/explore?frompage=contracts&tab=By%20Prime%20Awardee&contractorid=792861783&contractorname=LAW%20ENFORCEMENT%20TARGETS%20INC%20%20%20&frompage=contracts&comingfrom=searchresults&fiscal_year=all)
That company sells all sorts of targets. What makes you think they are buying the ones in the OP?
-
So... what is the purpose of them buying up millions of these targets for 'training purposes?'
That search only shows that LE INC has sold... something... to DOD. Not necessarily children and pregnant lady targets.
I get to go to a neat National Guard competition sometimes called All Weapons Weekend, here in AZ. They have one course of fire called Afghanistan Alley. Pop-up targets with shoot/no-shoot target identification out to 200 yards, last year. It's those amorphous green blob plastic 19" wide target backers, with paper targets glued to the face of them. Some are little ME-looking ladies with veils over their faces, some are your "informant" that you're supposed to recognize due to your pre-operational briefing, some are enemy combatants.
I bet LE INC sells those targets to the NG.
(I can't believe I'm on the side of defending these targets. They're just paper. They're not real people. And they can also be used in shoot/no-shoot situations, like house clearing in a situation where a pregnant mom is holed up in the bedroom after calling 911 and has a gun for legitimate defense.)
-
(I can't believe I'm on the side of defending these targets. They're just paper. They're not real people. And they can also be used in shoot/no-shoot situations, like house clearing in a situation where a pregnant mom is holed up in the bedroom after calling 911 and has a gun for legitimate defense.)
^legitimate training purpose^ especially for local LEOs, how often does DHS answer 911 calls?
Show up at your local shooting range with Obama/pelosi/Schumer cutouts and see how long it takes for the Secret Service to pay you a visit.
-
^legitimate training purpose^ especially for local LEOs, how often does DHS answer 911 calls?
Show up at your local shooting range with Obama/pelosi/Schumer cutouts and see how long it takes for the Secret Service to pay you a visit.
What about just Sercet Service cut outs? =D
-
(I can't believe I'm on the side of defending these targets. They're just paper. They're not real people. And they can also be used in shoot/no-shoot situations, like house clearing in a situation where a pregnant mom is holed up in the bedroom after calling 911 and has a gun for legitimate defense.)
These are billed as shoot targets, not no shoot targets. Sure, you could use them as no-shoots just like you could use the no-shoot police officer targets they advertise as Dorner-type scenario targets ... but that's not why they are sold.
I know they are just paper, but I don't think the intent behind the targets is legitimate for regular practice.
And the guy who used pictures of his own kids? Yeah, serious problems there. By the way, if it came out that a regular gun owner used pictures of his kids as targets, how long would it take CPS to take custody?
-
You know, just the other day I was thinking that the real problem with cops in this country is that when they jump out of their APC with a ski mask on to kick down someone's door for maybe growing a plant they don't hesitate to shoot any dogs they see, but aren't quite ready to kill pregnant ladies and little kids without thinking about it. So, so glad they're fixing this serious training issue.
-
That company sells all sorts of targets. What makes you think they are buying the ones in the OP?
Sorry, I should have added to my post. This was the link from the article and yes it only shows a dollar amount and LE Inc has a large product line.
-
They forgot the one of a 9 month old baby in a crib- slackers- just because she a baby does not mean she can't threaten them. And the guy with CP in a wheelchair- they missed that one too.
I think these targets are designed to reflect one demographic-middle class white gun owners. Period.
-
From their website:
(https://www.letshooting.com/let/upload/Statement_2.png)
-
So they don't sell them online anymore... you have to call in and ask for them directly...
And that last line... defending freedom.. yeah right.
-
defending freedom.. yeah right.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.staticflickr.com%2F43%2F87366679_17570ef9b6.jpg&hash=4d5f61ba828714a7e1b7d581dbd9ddca81971e8a)
-
I heard LETargets is also making the plastic coffins for FEMA...
-
I heard LETargets is also making the plastic coffins for FEMA...
Really? ??? [tinfoil]
-
Really? ??? [tinfoil]
Its obvious isnt it?
-
Pfft. The FEMA coffins. Right. :lol:
Everyone knows they have the contract to make the horned goat masks for the Bohemian Grove meetings. >:D