Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Fitz on March 18, 2013, 10:41:59 AM
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http://www.opticsplanet.com/nikon-p-223-3x32-bdc-carbine-rifle-scope.html
Thoughts?
Make a decent optic for my budget AR build?
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Not familiar with the particular scope but Nikon generally makes very nice scopes for the money
Sent via tapatalk
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I'm thinking i'd rather have a reflex sight. Some google searching lead me to a guy that really liked Mueller as a "budget" brand, and they have this
http://muelleroptics.com/mqs12233mb
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Too many moving pieces on that Nikon for me to be comfortable with it. Aside from X/Y adjustment, evidently the 400/600 yard BDC stadia are also adjustable. For $150, that's too many variables and too little QC in the factory for me.
The reflex sight is going to limit your ability to identify your target in comparison to a low-fixed magnification optic.
If $150-$200 is the price range you want to stay inside, I'd suggest looking for a 3x or 4x fixed power scope with 30 to 35mm objective lens and a simple reticle. The only option I might introduce would be an illuminated reticle. Minimal moving parts so it should stay true once dialed in.
I've got a Leupold FX-II 4x33mm that I like a lot. I've had it on my AR in the past, though now I have an ACOG on there instead. The FX-II doesn't have an illuminated reticle, but it's sturdy and reliable. That scope has been on Appleseed loaner .22's, my AR, my M14 and my Winchester 94 levergun. Taken all the abuse from those platforms and is still true. Opticsplanet thinks an FX-II is a $300 scope but I bet you can shop around and find it for less.
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The reflex sight has the advantage of a "both eyes open" aiming method, and very little obscuring of the surrounding area. Switching targets rapidly, and being able to identify a threat while looking at another target, are fairly important.
I'd love an acog. Had one in iraq, and it was perfect for my needs there. I realized after I turned it in that i was never actually signed for it.
Bummer.
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This looks interesting. Some good feedback on teh googlez.
https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_3X_Compact_Scope_PAC3X_p/pac3x.htm
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That's neat.
Actually, bookmarking that. I have 2 AR's... one is a flat-top with ACOG and I have a detachable carry handle for it, and the other is a White Oak competition service rifle upper. I'd like the WOA to have some sort of alternate sight capability since the rear aperture on the competition iron sights is damned tiny. I'd hate to have to rely on it as a "field" rifle. Something that screws into the carry handle like that would be ideal to turn that rifle into something a bit more... practical, if the need ever came up. Strip out the lead weights in the buttstock, screw on the optic and good to go.
How large is the donut reticle on that? 12 MOA?
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That's neat.
Actually, bookmarking that. I have 2 AR's... one is a flat-top with ACOG and I have a detachable carry handle for it, and the other is a White Oak competition service rifle upper. I'd like the WOA to have some sort of alternate sight capability since the rear aperture on the competition iron sights is damned tiny. I'd hate to have to rely on it as a "field" rifle. Something that screws into the carry handle like that would be ideal to turn that rifle into something a bit more... practical, if the need ever came up. Strip out the lead weights in the buttstock, screw on the optic and good to go.
How large is the donut reticle on that? 12 MOA?
No idea... but I'm thinking the donut reticle might be decent for quick CQB type shots with both eyes open on my flat top.
Also, gratuitous pic of my current setup.
I also want to try 3-gun. Probably do terribly, but I wanna try it. Need to un-*expletive deleted*ck my shotgun though.
The idiotic things we do to our guns when we're young. SIGH.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/r270/156072_3989172028216_1768287815_n.jpg)
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There were tiny hashmarks inside of it, too.
I'm wondering if it might be 19MOA (measured on the inside, and about 22MOA outside)... which would be a good size for sub-100 yard engagements and still leave plenty of room inside the donut for pre-calculated BDC markings from a 300 yard zero to (-3MOA) 400 to (-4MOA) 500 to (-4MOA) 600 yards. 300 to 600 would be -11MOA... bottom contact surface of the circle, possibly.
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I'd love an ACOG.
Ultimately, though, the price differential = a lot of ammo
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http://www.midwayusa.com/product/321088/blackhawk-knoxx-compstock-2-piece-recoil-reducing-traditional-stock-fnh-police-shotgun-winchester-1300-12-gauge-synthetic-black ??
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a question for the optics savvy. will a 1x reflex sight correct my vision like a 1x scope does? as i am getting older i find the target at 100+ yds to be more of a blur than it used to be, and i don't have any reflex sight experience.
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a question for the optics savvy. will a 1x reflex sight correct my vision like a 1x scope does? as i am getting older i find the target at 100+ yds to be more of a blur than it used to be, and i don't have any reflex sight experience.
Seems to me a "reflex" sight is merely a holographic thingy projected over to your already crappy vision >:D >:D [popcorn] [popcorn]
Doubt it's the same as a scope is, but maybe.
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I picked up a Nikon p-233 the other day for my current build. I haven't mounted it because I am waiting on a barrel to arrive. It appears to be very nice and solid. There really aren't that many moving parts, just that the scope adjustments are turrets instead of covered screws, you have to tug on the turret pretty good to get then to release to set your zero after you sight the scope in. I bought the 3-9x40 with free scope mounts.
I did get to play with the scope before I bought it at a Nikon display at the Iowa Deer Classic, it actually seemed clearer then the M-223. I'm only going to be shooting bobcats/coyotes to 150-200 yards and paper to 300 yards, so this scope seemed just fine. I'm also planning on shooting 55g bullets which this scope was designed for it.
All the online reviews of the M-223 are really good, and the bads one are either idiots or someone trying to compare them to a >$1000 scope.
When I get my rifle assembled I'll give a range report.
All my scopes are Burris or Nikon, I haven't really seen the difference between them and Leupold. You come out to the price range above of those brands and yes there is a difference in quality.
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Seems to me a "reflex" sight is merely a holographic thingy projected over to your already crappy vision >:D >:D [popcorn] [popcorn]
Doubt it's the same as a scope is, but maybe.
that's a shame, as i like the sight picture. i'm thinking glasses are in my near future anyway, as i find myself slowing to read street signs. =(
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that's a shame, as i like the sight picture. i'm thinking glasses are in my near future anyway, as i find myself slowing to read street signs. =(
You could always get a 3x scope and adjusted to fit your vision.
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I had one of the Primary Arms 1-4X24 scopes on an AR and loved it. Sold it a while back to try something else. I am planning on going back and getting another though. Keep it on 1X and it is similar to just using a red dot, but you can crank it up to 4X for longer range. Just a thought.
https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_1_4X_24_Illuminated_Scope_PA14X_p/pa14x.htm
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I had one of the Primary Arms 1-4X24 scopes on an AR and loved it. Sold it a while back to try something else. I am planning on going back and getting another though. Keep it on 1X and it is similar to just using a red dot, but you can crank it up to 4X for longer range. Just a thought.
https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_1_4X_24_Illuminated_Scope_PA14X_p/pa14x.htm
Bah.
Dammit
You *expletive deleted*ers
Making me make decisions
Long eye relief? how far forward can I mount it effectively?
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This is some feedback on the Nikon P-223.
Now, the bad; WOW.......the pictures of the crosshairs didn't do them justice....they're TINY. Light starts going duskish you're not going to see squat. The crosshairs are SUPER-thin, half the size of any my others, the hash-marks are the same. Even the duplex portion of the crosshairs are thin, about 1/4 the width of any of my 1-4X scopes.
http://wethearmed.com/gear-and-accessories/nikon-p-223-series/
I have been looking for a low power scope with an illuminated reticle. The two that have caught my eye so far are the Millet DMS and the Leatherwood Hi Lux CMR. It seems like the Millet has a more visible reticle while the Hi Lux has a more useful reticle that is not quite as bright. I'm interested in getting into some 3 gun matches when I get to Michigan but my motorcycle has been sucking up all my spare cash lately, leading me to research some less expensive scopes. I would not hesitate to try the Mueller reflex sight you had posted here, my experience with their scopes has been very positive.
http://www.millettsights.com/scopes/dms/
http://hi-luxoptics.com/product/riflescopes/tactical-scopes/cmr-series/
edit: I don't see the thin crosshairs on the Nikon as a deal killer, it just won't work for me.
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I think I'm going to go with the primary arms tac3x
I think functionally, and from a training standpoint, it will be similar to what I'm already familiar with
And inexpensive enough to where I'm okay with taking a gamble
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If you buy it can you post a review here? I'm still leaning towards the Millet DMS just because it is 1x4 and the illuminated reticle has gotten some good reviews but I'm not opposed to a fixed 3X sight.
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I put a 1-4x Nikon AR series on a .223 build of mine. I wanted some magnification available. Haven't seriously used it a bunch, side by side in the gun store I couldn't find any great advantage in a comparable used Leupold that was still more money. Set at 1x I can still use it both eyes open.
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Bah.
Dammit
You *expletive deleted*
Making me make decisions
Long eye relief? how far forward can I mount it effectively?
Sorry. lol Eye relief is 3.5", so it can't go very far forward. I was very pleased with the scope I had from them. I have also seen a few other models from them and they have all been pretty decent quality. Good luck.
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I put a 1-4x Nikon AR series on a .223 build of mine. I wanted some magnification available. Haven't seriously used it a bunch, side by side in the gun store I couldn't find any great advantage in a comparable used Leupold that was still more money. Set at 1x I can still use it both eyes open.
The difference is in the warranty. I've got a Nikon paperweight on the shelf, the zoom locked up after I owned it for 6 months and they wouldn't fix it.
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Now, the bad; WOW.......the pictures of the crosshairs didn't do them justice....they're TINY. Light starts going duskish you're not going to see squat. The crosshairs are SUPER-thin, half the size of any my others, the hash-marks are the same. Even the duplex portion of the crosshairs are thin, about 1/4 the width of any of my 1-4X scopes.
Are they thin? Yes.
However, they neglected to mention that when aiming at a darkish background with this scope, any ambient light is reflected back off of the reticle, making them appear to be a bronze color, quite distinguishable from everything else.
I have one on my new build mounted with a Burris P.E.P.R quick release forward canted mount that I'm quite pleased with. (So far =D)
Mount info here: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1548141657/burris-ar-pepr-1-piece-extended-scope-mount-picatinny-style-with-integral-rings-flattop-ar-15-matte (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1548141657/burris-ar-pepr-1-piece-extended-scope-mount-picatinny-style-with-integral-rings-flattop-ar-15-matte)
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I wonder if Nikon sporting optics (rifle scopes/spotting scopes/binoculars) is a totally different branch than the Nikon optics I'm used to?
I've had nothing but praise for their compound microscopes, SLRs, DSLRs, and camera lenses.
To be fair, though, I'm not really big on their AF-G lenses with the plastic bodies and lightweight glass, but they still produce good images.
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Are they thin? Yes.
However, they neglected to mention that when aiming at a darkish background with this scope, any ambient light is reflected back off of the reticle, making them appear to be a bronze color, quite distinguishable from everything else.
I have one on my new build mounted with a Burris P.E.P.R quick release forward canted mount that I'm quite pleased with. (So far =D)
Mount info here: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1548141657/burris-ar-pepr-1-piece-extended-scope-mount-picatinny-style-with-integral-rings-flattop-ar-15-matte (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1548141657/burris-ar-pepr-1-piece-extended-scope-mount-picatinny-style-with-integral-rings-flattop-ar-15-matte)
I looked through mine and yes it thin but I can also put crosshairs on smaller targets that way. With my heavy duplex scope anything smaller than a softwall gets hidden at 200 yards.
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What about an Aimpoint PRO for $408 with a mount?
http://swfa.com/Aimpoint-Patrol-Rifle-Optic-C4246.aspx
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What about an Aimpoint PRO for $408 with a mount?
http://swfa.com/Aimpoint-Patrol-Rifle-Optic-C4246.aspx
Aimpoint is solid for sure. Nobody questions that. And I really like the 2moa dot. Even 4moa dots are "fat" to me. As long as I can find it I want it as tiny as possible. I don't seem to follow the industry wisdom that fat dots are "fast". Monochromatic red backgrounds aren't found much outdoors in any part of the world, save maybe at Target stores. Small red dot moa's are the epitome of "aim small, miss small".
However, I find the separate 3-4x tip off magnifier systems klunky. And the magnified view is really odd as compared to a dedicated one piece scope.
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That primary arms 3x job is what I think i'm gonna go with. It keeps with the spirit of my "budget AR" build, and I read very good things about it on teh webz.
I will probably shell out extra for the quick detach mount, so I can, in a pinch, get rid of it and use irons.
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Aimpoint is solid for sure. Nobody questions that. And I really like the 2moa dot. Even 4moa dots are "fat" to me. As long as I can find it I want it as tiny as possible. I don't seem to follow the industry wisdom that fat dots are "fast". Monochromatic red backgrounds aren't found much outdoors in any part of the world, save maybe at Target stores. Small red dot moa's are the epitome of "aim small, miss small".
I used to be the same way, but I've eventually come around to liking big dots- mainly because my eyes aren't as good as they were 20 years ago. The size of the dot doesn't particularly matter for accuracy so long as the sight picture and everything else is consistent.
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That primary arms 3x job is what I think i'm gonna go with. It keeps with the spirit of my "budget AR" build, and I read very good things about it on teh webz.
I will probably shell out extra for the quick detach mount, so I can, in a pinch, get rid of it and use irons.
I'd like to hear what you think of it. I like that it is compact and simple. I'd like to compare it to something like the Aimpoint PRO but the nearest gun shop is 1.5 hours away and they don't have a big selection of anything like red dots or 1-4 scopes.
However, I find the separate 3-4x tip off magnifier systems klunky. And the magnified view is really odd as compared to a dedicated one piece scope.
The only expensive red dot I ever used was on an M240, an Aimpoint with no magnification. I've also used shotguns and the M14T with an EOTech but no magnifier. I like the red dots but have no idea if I would like the magnifier.
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Now, the bad; WOW.......the pictures of the crosshairs didn't do them justice....they're TINY. Light starts going duskish you're not going to see squat. The crosshairs are SUPER-thin, half the size of any my others, the hash-marks are the same. Even the duplex portion of the crosshairs are thin, about 1/4 the width of any of my 1-4X scopes.
That's kinda disappointing. I'm thining of putting one on my Mini-Mauser for wolves at night. I need to be able to pick up the crosshair with an obnoxiously bright, retina-searing spotlight out to a couple hundred yards or so. Mostly on a snow background.
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has anyone mentioned vortex optics? i am also looking for a budget optic, and they seem well liked (as highly recomended as primary arms), and an allegedly lifetime warrenty. the sparc is their red dot, and it comes with a screw in 2x multiplier.
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-sparc-red-dot-sight-sprc.html
The difference is in the warranty. I've got a Nikon paperweight on the shelf, the zoom locked up after I owned it for 6 months and they wouldn't fix it.
are zoom scopes in the budget range less reliable than single power? is it better to buy the best scope from a lesser brand, or the cheapest scope from a top brand (in the same price range)?
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has anyone mentioned vortex optics? i am also looking for a budget optic, and they seem well liked (as highly recomended as primary arms), and an allegedly lifetime warrenty. the sparc is their red dot, and it comes with a screw in 2x multiplier.
I've been reading some of the reviews of the Sparc and it seem like their red dots are not as well sorted out as their scopes. For $100 more you can pick up an Aimpoint with a mount. The batteries on the Sparc are evidently hard to find, among other things. I've sort of narrowed down my search to the Primary Arms 3X and the Aimpoint PRO. I may have to drive over to Sacramento some weekend and start looking at scopes and red dots in person.
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Fitz,
Did you ever buy that Primary Arms fixed power scope? I just put a Bushnell TRS-25 on mine and somebody who works for me just bought a Burris AR332. After both of them are sighted in we are going to go shooting together and do a little comparison. If I go with a red dot it will probably be an Aimpoint PRO and the Bushnell will go onto one of my .22s.
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Not yet. Funds tied up. Had to buy some
Bass gear
So it's probably gonna wait
Was amazed at how nice it shoots even with just MBUS
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I just put an MBUS on my rifle to replace the non folding rear sight that was on there. Friday afternoon I'm going to sight it in, both the irons and the red dot. I was surprised at how useful the 3 moa dot seemed. I looked through the red dot at a couple of known ranges, 175 and 575 yards, it didn't obscure nearly as much of what I was looking at as I was expecting.
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I'm used to clapped out army issue garbage that's been scraped and improperly cleaned for years. Imagine my surprise when I got better groups at 50y with my rifle than I get at 25m with the army's
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I've been reading some of the reviews of the Sparc and it seem like their red dots are not as well sorted out as their scopes. For $100 more you can pick up an Aimpoint with a mount. The batteries on the Sparc are evidently hard to find, among other things. I've sort of narrowed down my search to the Primary Arms 3X and the Aimpoint PRO. I may have to drive over to Sacramento some weekend and start looking at scopes and red dots in person.
Can't speak for the SPARC, but my Strikefire is a solid red dot. for $150. I keep wanting to grab an EOtech, but the Strikefire keeps working really well. I wanna say it uses a CR-123, but it's a standard easy to find batt.
The magnifier is useless.
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Dogmush,
I like the Strikefire and have considered buying one. You are right about the battery, I can't remember if it is CR123 or CR 2 but they can be found all over. I ruled the Sparc out because you basically had to order the batteries online. I have been looking at the Lucid HD7 too.
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Got to do a side by side comparison today of AR's with a red dot and the Burris AR332. I was surprised at how easy it was to hit stuff out to 75 yards or so (the gravel pit doesn't get much bigger) with the red dot. I had some problems with the AR332 while trying to shoot both eyes open. I was seeing double a couple of times. My one complaint about the red dot, the 3 MOA dot can be a little hard to pick up sometimes, not because of the sunlight but there was a lot of stuff there and the dot was small. Now I understand the donut and dot concept on some of the less expensive red dots.
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Got to do a side by side comparison today of AR's with a red dot and the Burris AR332. I was surprised at how easy it was to hit stuff out to 75 yards or so (the gravel pit doesn't get much bigger) with the red dot. I had some problems with the AR332 while trying to shoot both eyes open. I was seeing double a couple of times. My one complaint about the red dot, the 3 MOA dot can be a little hard to pick up sometimes, not because of the sunlight but there was a lot of stuff there and the dot was small. Now I understand the donut and dot concept on some of the less expensive red dots.
The EOTech has a donut dot too, It's just that the dot in the center is even smaller at 1 MOA.
I was planning a range trip today and just took my bull barrel AR with a 6-24x50 AO out. I'll be finding out just how good the Vortex warranty is. It won't focus. :mad: