Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: zahc on April 01, 2013, 12:04:20 AM
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Does anyone have any experience with these? I'm thinking of getting one for a daily commuter/midlife-crisis-car and to save money over my Tahoe. There are a lot of them out there in the $3-5000 range, but most of them at that price are from the 90's or early '00s and have 150kish miles. Do these things hold up ok? Thankfully, this is Texas so there is no corrosion problem with old cars.
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http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1519/project-miatabusa-part-1-what-the-hell-we-are-thinking.aspx (http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1519/project-miatabusa-part-1-what-the-hell-we-are-thinking.aspx)
http://www.tobefast.com/velocity-hayabusa-stage2-turbo-pr-4279.html (http://www.tobefast.com/velocity-hayabusa-stage2-turbo-pr-4279.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESodtR5i68 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESodtR5i68)
>:D
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Busa idea has merit. I regret abandoning a Gen II RX-7 I had. Steal the motor put a turbo rotor in a Miata and then you're getting somewhere.
Most interesting 'busa adaptation I've seen thus far was one stuck in a dirt midget. No trans of course, whole car light as heck. Mad engineer had to give the driver steering wheel buttons to retard the spark, it was buzzing the tires off above 10000rpm. Sounded evil even in a sea of angry buzzing 4cyls.
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Make sure you don't get one that has been road racing or Autocrossing. Those are likely beat to hell.
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Make sure you don't get one that has been road racing or Autocrossing. Those are likely beat to hell.
Miata's are some of the most road raced and autocrossed cars on the planet. Autocross doesn't hurt a car one bit. Stick in 2nd or 3rd gear the entire time, go 20-40mph.
Anyway, I daily drive a 2004 mazdaspeed miata. Before that, a 99 miata.
The cars are very well built and last a long time. Residual value (resale) is typically very high. Trunk space is small but manageable, I usually can fit a whole shopping cart of groceries in and still have room for the FNP45 bag.
All miata's are small, 2 seat, 4 cylinder, rear-wheel drive, convertibles. They were offered as 5 and 6spd manual, and automatic (but why would anyone?....) For all generations, lots of aftermarket support for changing suspension, stiffening frame, adding turbos, bigger race tires, installing roll bars, replacing seats, just about anything. This is a cheap racers sports car, and so there is a decent size industry for everything for it.
These cars are all about lightness for performance. So small, small, small is the rule of the day.
The manual convertible is so easy to work, I can do it at a red light from the driver seat. And I have done this quite often.
There are 3 generations of miata body style/drivetrain.
Late 80's to 97 called an "NA".
Mostly 1.6L [BP engine family], some later years optioned a 1.8L. Offered as a 5-speed manual. Lightest generation of the bunch. Soft suspension, but immensely fun. Very cheap, which makes it a good candidate for modding and hooning.
99 to 06 called "NB"
All are 1.8L [BP engine family], 5spd and 6spd. Big body style change from the NA. A little more expensive. 04 and 05 had a very limited mazdaspeed version with a factory turbo. Spring rates are still soft, but damping is pretty aggressive to give it an aggressive feel. Body roll is minimal. I prefer this generation's body style.
06 to current called "NC"
All are new 2.0L [new engine family: MZR]. Another body style change. Newest = most expensive. All are naturally aspirated, but this gen makes decent power from the 2L. I hear the suspension has stiffened and refined to something more modern. First generation to have powered convertible option.
Love, love, love this car. The feel of the steering is so awesome. The steering and handling is awesome, that speed limits feel meaningless. 75mph might as well be 35. The braking capacity is immense, and the shifter feels smooth and clutch feels natural.
The NA and NB naturally aspirated versions are not fast by any means. I'm talking early 90's V6 mustang slow, I'm talking minivan slow. But they out handle anything short of a Porsche on curves, stock. With gentle streetable mods (slightly stiffer suspension, and sticky tires) they are an absolute beast through any corner, easily pushing past over 1g. All generations use a double wishbone suspension on all four corners, no struts here. Which also makes for easier damper and spring upgrades.
Here is a after market turbo'd NA chasing down/passing a Viper at Thunderhill.
http://youtu.be/v0GrTGopcW4?t=48s
The engine and trans, while stock, are 200k+ mi reliable. They are designed with the budget racer in mind, so Mazda builds a LOT of engineering margin into these cars. The NA and NB engine families were built/designed with turbocharging in mind. They provided oil ports and low compression pistons and forged cranks on this BP engine family. All the engines are 4v/DOHC, with timing belt. Since it is a longitudinal engine, belt changes are a cake walk. Turbocharging is a very popular mod because it is so easy and makes the car really come alive. I would not be afraid of a used after market turbocharged version, if done by somebody that knows what they are doing. Otherwise, get a mazdaspeed with factory turbo and same engine.
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Drew seems like a good source for info.
I would add however, that he must Autocross with better driver's then my local club. Yeah, it ain't that fast, but it's still clutch dumping starts, lots of heavy braking, and the (not so) occasional sliding off the runway and into the potholes grass sideways at 30mph. I've seen some interesting suspension bends come out of an autocross course.
My opinion stands, if you're looking for a reliable Daily Driver, find one that hasn't been raced, or be a mechanic.
That said if you want a small, light sports car in the US, your choices are pretty limited. I don't think you can touch an S2000 at that price point. You might find a Triumph or MG, but it'll be old, slower, and .......less reliable. the Z cars got heavy about the 300 series. Used Boxter maybe. Or drop $25K on the new GT86. Or shop and find a good Miata. The American market doesn't really do light and nimble well.
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Little sports cars can be fun, but sometimes it's better to drive an SUV.
(Looks more like a Corvette under there than a Miata . . . a Miata would start about where the 'Vette ended up, size-wise.)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchrisaulddotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F09%2Fcar-accident.jpg&hash=4cc8882e15db31d40a472a53ab3f9d91f39e4e27)
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Little sports cars can be fun, but sometimes it's better to drive an SUV.
(Looks more like a Corvette under there than a Miata . . . a Miata would start about where the 'Vette ended up, size-wise.)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchrisaulddotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F09%2Fcar-accident.jpg&hash=4cc8882e15db31d40a472a53ab3f9d91f39e4e27)
SUVs can be fun to drive, but sometimes it's better to drive a semi:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.kitsapsun.com%2Fmedia%2Fimg%2Fphotos%2F2008%2F10%2F09%2F1009_LOC_FatalCrash2_t607.jpg&hash=6c189d4a65d572c5aedc8b6d8dc37e9be805b115)
There's always something bigger than you on the road, drive appropriately.
Chris
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Semis are fun to drive, but sometimes it's better to drive a tank...
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.truckaccidentlaw.org%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F04%2Fgrosse-tete-la-semi-truck-accident-1.jpg&hash=7d3f38f49407b0a08c8541b28787e5276e067ca2)
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Little sports cars can be fun, but sometimes it's better to drive an SUV.
(Looks more like a Corvette under there than a Miata . . . a Miata would start about where the 'Vette ended up, size-wise.)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchrisaulddotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F09%2Fcar-accident.jpg&hash=4cc8882e15db31d40a472a53ab3f9d91f39e4e27)
did the suv drive over? or the vette drive under?
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did the suv drive over? or the vette drive under?
Neither, its the mating ritual that will result in the new Chrysler / GM sport crossover.
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Neither, its the mating ritual that will result in the new Chrysler / GM sport crossover.
Or it's where the new Camaro came from.
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back to the point of the original post...
I've not owned one myself, but my roommate when I first moved to NoVA had one. He was frequently out of town on TDY for our company and I was given permission to drive his Miata as I saw fit. This was 1996, I think the car was a 92 or 93 model (don't recall exactly, just that it wasn't new when he got it). I enjoyed it immensely. It wasn't the fastest car out there, but handled like a slot car. The shifter was a joy, feeling like a toggle switch. Steering was tight with just the right amount of power assist and road feedback. I could raise or lower the top without getting out of the car. It was plenty spacious for my 5'10"/200lb frame, but the top of the windhield was sometimes awkward if I pulled up to a traffic light at just the right distance. That car was just plain fun to drive.
During the 3-4 years he owned it, it never suffered any issues.
Chris
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I drove a miata once. The top was down, otherwise I wouldn't have fit.
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I've always liked the Hayabusa/Smart Car conversion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLtMh20qIp8
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I've always liked the Hayabusa/Smart Car conversion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLtMh20qIp8
Did they replace the weed wacker engine with chain saw engine? :laugh:
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Well don't go half measures then...
http://www.flyinmiata.com/V8/silverMSM/index.php?start=26
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flyinmiata.com%2FV8%2FsilverMSM%2Fimages%2Ffinished%252002.jpg&hash=cd2bd7b0c44d45673dc9aa55a50b7fe3004161e2)
BTW:
LS2 Miata and 427 shelby cobra, approx the same track and wheelbase and weight.
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I've heard about the LS1/2 engine swaps. The crazy thing is, an LS2 V8 is not really any heavier than the 4-cylinder miata engine, or so I've been told.
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I've heard about the LS1/2 engine swaps. The crazy thing is, an LS2 V8 is not really any heavier than the 4-cylinder miata engine, or so I've been told.
That is correct. BP is iron block, good for boost, not too good for weight. I think the LS2 is possibly slightly lighter.
Most of the weight gain from the swap is the trans and lower drivetrain.
T56 is heavy beast, I think >180lbs. Stock 6spd is like 80-100lbs.
Plus big RX7 diff
Plus bigger half shafts
Plus bigger tires
minus weight for tube sub-frame
Adds up to a couple hundred pounds for the swap.
2300lb NB -> 2500lbs
2500lb Mazdaspeed -> 2600lbs
Good news is that since it is all lower drivetrain, the weight gains are low CG, and toward the rear. Stock balance is 52/48, I think some measured post swap balance to be 51/49.
I suspect the hard part is tubbing out the fenders to fit the massive rubber needed to control that much torque in a light chassis. I would be afraid of the short wheel base with that much power. But maybe good rubber can mitigate that.
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Oh I forgot, my forum avatar picture is taken from over the windshield in the Miata at the park...
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.791914,-89.583206&spn=0.020112,0.029182&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=40.791887,-89.583048&panoid=LM6LN8Y1t9YWeve3JRWFhQ&cbp=12,267.98,,0,21.38
Fun drive from house to Kroger.
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At a local car event this past Saturday there was a LS2/miata...slick install, looks like fun.
Why not a solstice/LS2?
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http://www.mallettcars.com/solstice-conversion.htm
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I don't suppose a Buick 215 V8 (or the Oldsmobile "Jetfire" turbo 215, for a huge boost in torque) would fit in a Miata? It might even be lighter than the original 4-cylinder.
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Buick 215: 145hp/318lbs
LS2: 400HP/440lbs.
Prolly could, but why bother?
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Buick 215: 145hp/318lbs
LS2: 400HP/440lbs.
Prolly could, but why bother?
1) Some of the 215's were around 200HP; the Olds was 215HP and 300 lb·ft of torque.
2) I didn't think the LS engine would fit, because the 215 is probably pushing it. (I haven't been paying attention) :P
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http://www.mallettcars.com/solstice-conversion.htm
I know, that's the one I was referring to, I saw its debut at SEMA a while back :)
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1) Some of the 215's were around 200HP; the Olds was 215HP and 300 lb·ft of torque.
2) I didn't think the LS engine would fit, because the 215 is probably pushing it. (I haven't been paying attention) :P
I actually REALLY want to build a LS2 240Z. Just don't have the time space or money. That LS2 Miata caught my eye.
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F, now I want one of those old man 2nd midlife crisis rollerskates. I'm dying to turbo a 6cyl Subaru and put it in something off the wall. Guy I know put a normally aspirated but tweaked one into a VW Vanagon, made it rather retarded. In a good way of course.
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I have a '94 Cadillac DeVille that I can't give away; it has a 4.9L engine that runs good and no leaks. I wonder if that would fit in a small RWD, like a Fiat or MG or Opel GT? It gets relatively good fuel economy (mid-20's on the highway) in that big ol' heavy Cadillac.
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I have a '94 Cadillac DeVille that I can't give away; it has a 4.9L engine that runs good and no leaks. I wonder if that would fit in a small RWD, like a Fiat or MG or Opel GT? It gets relatively good fuel economy (mid-20's on the highway) in that big ol' heavy Cadillac.
I hate to be racist, but are there no black people living near you? And because i cant help myself, what kind of shape is it in otherwise?
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I hate to be racist, but are there no black people living near you? And because i cant help myself, what kind of shape is it in otherwise?
There are no blacks here except for a few doctors, and the Somali refugees on the other side of town.
No dents, no rust. A/C works. New transmission about 50000 ago. The leather interior is in decent shape. Now the bad news: 235000 miles, the driver's window rolls down but not up, the clearcoat finish is peeling off and looks like crap, and the brakes have gone out completely (I *think* it just needs both front brake lines replaced, and those are pretty cheap.) And the battery is toast from being just parked for a year and I didn't start it often enough.
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I hate to be racist, but are there no black people living near you? And because i cant help myself, what kind of shape is it in otherwise?
Jocassee wants a donk!
What candy bar wrapper are you going to have it painted as?
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Jocassee wants a donk!
What candy bar wrapper are you going to have it painted as?
I was thinking about giving it the general lee paint scheme, just to shake things up in the hood.
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I was thinking about giving it the general lee paint scheme, just to shake things up in the hood.
Aiming to get shot at, I see
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I don't trust any vehicle on the road that will fit into the back of mine.
I actually measured a smart one day and it would fit. The Miatta would be a tight squeeze.
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There are no blacks here except for a few doctors, and the Somali refugees on the other side of town.
No dents, no rust. A/C works. New transmission about 50000 ago. The leather interior is in decent shape. Now the bad news: 235000 miles, the driver's window rolls down but not up, the clearcoat finish is peeling off and looks like crap, and the brakes have gone out completely (I *think* it just needs both front brake lines replaced, and those are pretty cheap.) And the battery is toast from being just parked for a year and I didn't start it often enough.
Bring it to Chicago. You'll be on a train back to MN before the sun sets (and with a big wad of cash.)
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Aiming to get shot at, I see
gun shot wounds are the spice of life
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My wife's car is an '07 w/6 speed and retractable hard top. A pure pleasure to drive. Did I mention just shy of 30mpg?
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Jocassee wants a donk!
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.gawkerassets.com%2Fimg%2F18b6w6tjnx347jpg%2Fku-xlarge.jpg&hash=636d51eaa072820d493f311dd52184c2a7ccb7c1)
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.gawkerassets.com%2Fimg%2F18b6w6tjnx347jpg%2Fku-xlarge.jpg&hash=636d51eaa072820d493f311dd52184c2a7ccb7c1)
Big (Daddy Kane) Foot.
Brad
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I ended up getting a slightly newer 99 model instead of the pre-1996 i was originally looking at. I had thought pre-96 cars were exempt from emissions because they have no OBDII, and when i get my OBD cars inspected they just use the OBD system as an emissions proxy. However, apparently for pre-OBD cars they actually do a tailpipe test which squashes my thoughts of a cat-free exhaust system with no expensive evaporative emissions repairs.
For someone of my stature it really is comically small, but i commute 7 miles so i don't mind.
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I hate to be racist, but are there no black people living near you? And because i cant help myself, what kind of shape is it in otherwise?
Lolz. I've had more than a few people pull up along side me and ask me if I want to sell my old pontiac while driving through da hood. :rofl:
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I ended up getting a slightly newer 99 model instead of the pre-1996 i was originally looking at. I had thought pre-96 cars were exempt from emissions because they have no OBDII, and when i get my OBD cars inspected they just use the OBD system as an emissions proxy. However, apparently for pre-OBD cars they actually do a tailpipe test which squashes my thoughts of a cat-free exhaust system with no expensive evaporative emissions repairs.
For someone of my stature it really is comically small, but i commute 7 miles so i don't mind.
FWIW, among my roadracing buddies, we pull cat's all the time. (race cars)
These (http://www.mil-eliminators.com/product_info.php?products_id=30) wired into the downstream cat will turn off MIL, bypass the emissions crap, and let the computer control the mixture properly without a cat.
This is, of course, illegal for a road car, but it's handy if you race. You can also put one in the wiring harness, and have a straight pipe that you swap the cat out for on track day. just don't drive it without cats.
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So, I thought the engine computer used the oxygen sensors in 'closed-loop' mode to adjust the mixture. If you fake out the O2 sensor, I'm surprised the car even runs?
Is the post-cat O2 sensor just to test if the cat is working, and the pre-cat sensor is the one used for engine control? In that case, I can see hard-wiring the post-cat O2 sensor working, since it's just a cat health indicator.
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Is the post-cat O2 sensor just to test if the cat is working, and the pre-cat sensor is the one used for engine control?
Correct.
Brad
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Yep. Downstream O2(s) is emission diagnostic only. All engine control is done by the upstream 02(s). (OBDII)
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Removing the cat (on a streetable performance car) is a holdover from a bygone decade, when the thing actually caused excessive back pressure. Modern OEM cats flow pretty good, and the aftermarket performance cats are going to flow pretty close to having none at all.
Now if you are running some highly competitive series with a dedicated car, like spec miata, where the extra 1hp is worth having, then by all means...
http://youtu.be/yubpZk9cIFo?t=46s
But for the vast majority of us, there is almost no performance difference, and a cat makes a big difference to the poisonous fumes expelled from the engine, even a high flow performance model.
I run a high flow cat on my aftermarket exhaust (everything from turbine outlet to muffler inlet was replaced with larger piping). The new system flows so well that the stock wastegate can't hold OEM pressure target (7.5psig), now it runs consistently to 11-12psig at full throttle. Fortunately I have injectors and ecu mods to keep the afrs in line. I could have gone to an even larger exhaust with cat, but that would require taking the turbo off to port the wastegate as the boost creeps to dangerous levels with that system. Point is... the cat is not a limitation on flow.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.gawkerassets.com%2Fimg%2F18b6w6tjnx347jpg%2Fku-xlarge.jpg&hash=636d51eaa072820d493f311dd52184c2a7ccb7c1)
I don't think that thing is drivable. There doesn't appear to be a drive shaft hooked up to the rear differential, and I can't see anything else that looks like it could provide power to the wheels.
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I don't think that thing is drivable. There doesn't appear to be a drive shaft hooked up to the rear differential, and I can't see anything else that looks like it could provide power to the wheels.
Psst...It's a marketing gimmick for the store.
Chris
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Psst...It's a marketing gimmick for the store.
Chris
It'd be more effective if it worked.
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It'd be more effective if it worked.
One of the street accessory stores near me has one, not quite that high but pretty close, that works.
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Removing the cat (on a streetable performance car) is a holdover from a bygone decade, when the thing actually caused excessive back pressure. Modern OEM cats flow pretty good, and the aftermarket performance cats are going to flow pretty close to having none at all.
Now if you are running some highly competitive series with a dedicated car, like spec miata, where the extra 1hp is worth having, then by all means...
http://youtu.be/yubpZk9cIFo?t=46s
But for the vast majority of us, there is almost no performance difference, and a cat makes a big difference to the poisonous fumes expelled from the engine, even a high flow performance model.
I run a high flow cat on my aftermarket exhaust (everything from turbine outlet to muffler inlet was replaced with larger piping). The new system flows so well that the stock wastegate can't hold OEM pressure target (7.5psig), now it runs consistently to 11-12psig at full throttle. Fortunately I have injectors and ecu mods to keep the afrs in line. I could have gone to an even larger exhaust with cat, but that would require taking the turbo off to port the wastegate as the boost creeps to dangerous levels with that system. Point is... the cat is not a limitation on flow.
Ehhh. I get like 35 HP difference between my street midpipe (w/cats) and my off road pipe. Same pip diameter. Measured on a dyno. But I'm prolly pushing more air then you. I'm also running manifolds. Longtubes would bring the two pipes closer together in performance.