Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: never_retreat on April 17, 2013, 10:43:43 PM
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Looks like a fertilizer plant cooked off.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/texas-news/powerful-exploson-rocks-town-north-of-waco-203508001.html (http://www.wfaa.com/news/texas-news/powerful-exploson-rocks-town-north-of-waco-203508001.html)
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I know where it is and have driven through there a couple of times.
You think it was ammonium nitrate, or natural gas?
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Looks like a fertilizer plant cooked off.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/texas-news/powerful-exploson-rocks-town-north-of-waco-203508001.html (http://www.wfaa.com/news/texas-news/powerful-exploson-rocks-town-north-of-waco-203508001.html)
At least 10 structures are on fire in the town, including a school which is next door to the plant.
The town's community hospital is about four blocks from the burning fertilizer plant.
Great community planning there, folks.
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I know where it is and have driven through there a couple of times.
You think it was ammonium nitrate, or natural gas?
No idea I'm 1600 miles away. I saw it via a facebook post of a friend.
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Huh... Wondered what that was.
Local nooz drove down there and sent their helicopter. Looks like all of central Texas sent their emergency vehicles, 'cause there aren't that many red lights in the whole county. Bunch of buildings flattened and half the country is on fire. Pretty huge fustercluck.
And now they're evacuating the town in case there's a second explosion. Seems like the mushroom cloud and resulting hellacious fire would've dealt with the combustibles, but they must know something I don't.
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I live about an hour from West, and we felt the explosion here. I was with a friend at our small church. It felt like someone closed a door really hard. We went outside to check for unexpected visitors. Didn't know about the explosion until I got home. Know a few co-workers who live in West....all OK, thank God.
Good coverage on this on
www.kwtx.com
www.wacotrib.com
Now reporting as many as 70 dead....
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Rescue vehicles from North Texas agencies were racing to the scene on I-35.
Bet LawDog might have something to say about this in the next few days.
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And now they're evacuating the town in case there's a second explosion. Seems like the mushroom cloud and resulting hellacious fire would've dealt with the combustibles, but they must know something I don't.
There is another fertilizer plant nearby....
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Great community planning there, folks.
:O
Town I grew up in has an ammonium nitrate plant. They located it a good five miles north of town, and even then there was speculation that if it went off the explosion would break every window in town.
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More info.....
http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Explosion-Injuries-Reported-At-West-Fertilizer-Plant-203505331.html?mobile=yes&device=android
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There is another fertilizer plant nearby....
Where at? I just did some looking around on Google Earth; couldn't find anything that looked like another fertilizer plant within a couple miles of the one that went off.
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Video of the actual explosion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ROrpKx3aIjA&noredirect=1
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And now they're evacuating the town in case there's a second explosion. Seems like the mushroom cloud and resulting hellacious fire would've dealt with the combustibles, but they must know something I don't.
http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Explosion-Injuries-Reported-At-West-Fertilizer-Plant-203505331.html
That was apparently just one of two anhydrous ammonia tanks.
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There wasn't a non white person seen running from the are was there?
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http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/04/17/fertilizer-plant-explosion-reported-north-of-waco/
Take a look at that first video.
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Word has it that there's a anhydrous ammonia leak going on there now, people are being warned to stay the kcuf away from the town / being evac'ed,
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Video of the actual explosion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ROrpKx3aIjA&noredirect=1
Holy *expletive deleted*it.
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Where at? I just did some looking around on Google Earth; couldn't find anything that looked like another fertilizer plant within a couple miles of the one that went off.
My mistake....
http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Explosion-Injuries-Reported-At-West-Fertilizer-Plant-203505331.html
That was apparently just one of two anhydrous ammonia tanks.
The second tank still has a fire nearby. They're keeping away from it in case it explodes, too.
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https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=209846025921424119826.0004da9950ad853cd5748&msa=0&ll=31.815766,-97.087684&spn=0.029283,0.066047 (https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=209846025921424119826.0004da9950ad853cd5748&msa=0&ll=31.815766,-97.087684&spn=0.029283,0.066047)
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Seems like the mushroom cloud and resulting hellacious fire would've dealt with the combustibles, but they must know something I don't.
Well, the Pepcon plant in Nevada had several successive explosions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8RY_ibNq3c
Slightly off topic:
While I sympathize with the tragic loss of life (especially the emergency workers) and housing, the first thing I noticed was that the article cited above...
http://www.wfaa.com/news/texas-news/powerful-exploson-rocks-town-north-of-waco-203508001.html
.... was a pretty good example of classic reportage. Who, what, where. when. A lot of prominent journalists today could take a lesson from that.
Terry, 230RN
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https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=209846025921424119826.0004da9950ad853cd5748&msa=0&ll=31.815766,-97.087684&spn=0.029283,0.066047 (https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=209846025921424119826.0004da9950ad853cd5748&msa=0&ll=31.815766,-97.087684&spn=0.029283,0.066047)
Why is the epicenter so far from where the blast actually happened? ???
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Why is the epicenter so far from where the blast actually happened? ???
Interesting. when I posted it, the epicenter was between the tank and Jerry Mashek Dr.
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Holy *expletive deleted*.
As a side note.
Who stops to take video of the BURNING FERTILIZER PLANT with their freaking KID in the car?
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As a side note.
Who stops to take video of the BURNING FERTILIZER PLANT with their freaking KID in the car?
They probably didn't know that it could explode like that.
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They probably didn't know that it could explode like that.
Lookey-loos who wanted to be part of the story....had they gotten any closer, their next Facebook post would be the last thing on their minds....
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holy cow, makes me glad that our biggest industry is a sour cream plant.
The scene of the explosion will be treated like a crime scene until they can prove it was an industrial accident.
while they are not charging an individual, it does go to show our mental state post 911.
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They probably didn't know that it could explode like that.
I will confess that even if I had an idea it would explode, I would never have thought the blast would go out that far. That's nuts. They're what, a good quarter mile away?
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As a side note.
Who stops to take video of the BURNING FERTILIZER PLANT with their freaking KID in the car?
Idiots who have only managed to survive life because we as a society insist on cockblocking Darwin.
Believe you me, if a fertilizer, chlorine, or any number of other hazerdous structures catches afire you will see me leaving the area like a Kenyan fleeing a crocodile.
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I will confess that even if I had an idea it would explode, I would never have thought the blast would go out that far. That's nuts. They're what, a good quarter mile away?
If somethimg like that catches on fire you want to be miles away.
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Idiots who have only managed to survive life because we as a society insist on cockblocking Darwin.
Believe you me, if a fertilizer, chlorine, or any number of other hazerdous structures catches afire you will see me leaving the area like a Kenyan fleeing a crocodile.
i wonder how many people knew what was being manufactured there? the planning board should be "wumped up side the head" for this.
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They probably didn't know that it could explode like that.
I thought in a post-OKC paradigm that everyone knew fertilizer could go all asplodey. =D
Well they know now.
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i wonder how many people knew what was being manufactured there? the planning board should be "wumped up side the head" for this.
While I agree about the plannimg if you dont know whats in your town as far as industry and so forth you have the situational awareness of a frickin rock.
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Place is a little more than halfway between Austin and Dallas, making it a good hour and a half, maybe hour and 45 minutes drive north of where I'm at along I-35 - too far away to hear or feel the explosion from here.
News reports are sketchy, but earlier they were saying over 100 injured and "between 5 and 15" feared dead, with some VFD crew members "unaccounted for."
Overnight a south wind was keeping the smoke plume blowing north, but by 7 it was already changing direction as a line of storms and a cold front were coming through. Haven't seen an update for a couple of hours . . .
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As a side note.
Who stops to take video of the BURNING FERTILIZER PLANT with their freaking KID in the car?
Just to be a little fair that guy is between a quarter and a half mile away. It does not scream I'm in danger to me.
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While I agree about the plannimg if you dont know whats in your town as far as industry and so forth you have the situational awareness of a frickin rock.
BUT, BUT, BUT
Govt regulations stifle business. They need these jobs. Texas has to do everything it can to be the growth leader.
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If the one in my town had caught fire, I'd have probably watched it...from the top of the mountain on the opposite side of the valley a good 10 miles away, and I'd have made sure I was standing near something substantial to duck behind. Did I mention that it made AN specifically for ANFO explosives? [tinfoil]
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Just to be a little fair that guy is between a quarter and a half mile away. It does not scream I'm in danger to me.
Really? It does to me. I work in an industrial area and make it a point to know what is in and the potential blast radius of all the stuff around me.
Maybe I'm projecting my knowledge of boomy things, but I really thought that everyone know that kinda of thing goes big when it goes. This isn't the first fetilizer plant to go boom.
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Idiots who have only managed to survive life because we as a society insist on cockblocking Darwin.
Believe you me, if a fertilizer, chlorine, or any number of other hazerdous structures catches afire you will see me leaving the area like a Kenyan fleeing a crocodile.
Same here. Closest place that uses volatile chems in quantity are about 2 miles from the house. Not worried because the quantity is small relative to say a fertilizer plant.
BUT, BUT, BUT
Govt regulations stifle business. They need these jobs. Texas has to do everything it can to be the growth leader.
No reason for gov't to step in here. I would bet dollars to donuts the plant predates the surrounding structures. Property owners knew of it and were OK with the risk. And most will end up OK. Some, not so much.
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Anyone know about the Texas City explosion back in the day?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_Disaster
This right here is why you unass the AO anytime there is an industrial fire. If AN or fertilizer is involved, you want to be several miles away.
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There was a pretty good KB at a chemical plant near Waxahache a year or two ago. Roasted a fire truck, IIRC. Luckily it was outside of town.
I guess Camera Guy missed the news that day. Potential for boom = GTFO. I can't imagine living in the apartments across the street and not bailing at the first sign of smoke. Drive to Waco, have dinner at Ninfa's, and hope the house is there when you get back.
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I can't imagine living in the apartments across the street and not bailing at the first sign of smoke.
I can't imagine that there was anyone living in the apartments across the street after the blast. =(
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Anyone know about the Texas City explosion back in the day?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_Disaster
This right here is why you unass the AO anytime there is an industrial fire. If AN or fertilizer is involved, you want to be several miles away.
I have read about the Texas City Disaster. Here is another scary one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_East_Ohio_Gas_explosion
TL ; DR 1944 LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas) tank leaks and the vapor gets into the sewer lines and mixes with air and sewer gas and finally ignites. After the first explosion the onlookers return to their homes and there is a second explosion from another leaking tank leveled the tank farm and then the underground explosion continued. However, the explosions and fires continued to occur, trapping many who had returned to what they thought was the safety of their own homes. Housewives who were at home suddenly found their homes engulfed in flame as the explosion traveled through the sewers and up through drains. The following day, Associated Press wire stories contained quotes from survivors, many of whom were at home cleaning in preparation for the coming Sabbath. Survivors said that within a split second after the explosion, their homes and clothes were on fire.
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You know, if someone wanted to get a very large quantity of ammonium nitrate without all those pesky federal tracking issues, stealing a bunch then setting the plant on fire would be a pretty good way to do that. [tinfoil]
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I'm about 30 miles as a crow flies. Heard it felt it and heard the echos. Didn't know what happened until it broke on the news.
Found out this am that two former coworkers are ok. They live in West and were assisting in the evac. of the nursing home. They were just outside the destruction zone when blew. Were up all night searching homes. As I understand the homes, nursing home and apartment complex had been evac before it blew.
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the homes, nursing home and apartment complex had been evaced before it blew.
That is good! =)
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That is good! =)
Yes. And would explain the low casualty count.
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Good indeed!
I looked at the aerial photo and watched the latest video (the one by the blue dumpster, not the one in the truck). Its easy to spot on the map. By my reckoning, that guy was less than a quarter mile away. [popcorn]
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No reason for gov't to step in here. I would bet dollars to donuts the plant predates the surrounding structures. Property owners knew of it and were OK with the risk. And most will end up OK. Some, not so much.
This. You pays your money and youse takes your chances. The .gov is not there to save you from your own ignorance and stupidity. Anyone with half a brain can tell the difference between a chemical/fertilizer plant/refinery and a teddy bear factory.
P.S. So, no reports of a white guy in hoodie driving away in a van screaming "Wolverines !!!" ??
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This. You pays your money and youse takes your chances. The .gov is not there to save you from your own ignorance and stupidity. Anyone with half a brain can tell the difference between a chemical/fertilizer plant/refinery and a teddy bear factory.
P.S. So, no reports of a white guy in hoodie driving away in a van screaming "Wolverines !!!" ??
In Texas, they scream "Armadillos !!!" =D
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Correction of previous post.
Nursing home was mostly still occupied. They were in the process of moving them when it blew.
They were just lucky.
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No reason for gov't to step in here. I would bet dollars to donuts the plant predates the surrounding structures. Property owners knew of it and were OK with the risk. And most will end up OK. Some, not so much.
An article I saw said that the plant owners were asked about the possibility of an explosion during the planning process and they stated flat out that it "could not" explode. Based on that, I would have to conclude that the property owners did not know of it and were not okay with the risk.
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Slow-mo of a phone vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVzz8NylTwM
From the frame or two prior to the full explosion it looks like the ignition point was slightly away from the main fire, somewhere in the combustion gas column. I wonder if there was a chlorine source somewhere in the immediate vicinity. When ammonia gas is exposed to chlorine in high enough concentrations you get nitrogen trichloride, which is some pretty nasty stuff.
Brad
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Slow-mo of a phone vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVzz8NylTwM
From the frame or two prior to the full explosion it looks like the ignition point was slightly away from the main fire, somewhere in the combustion gas column. I wonder if there was a chlorine source somewhere in the immediate vicinity. When ammonia gas is exposed to chlorine in high enough concentrations you get nitrogen trichloride, which is some pretty nasty stuff.
Brad
Some folks are claiming it was an incoming missle :facepalm: [tinfoil]
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Some folks are claiming it was an incoming missle :facepalm: [tinfoil]
Yeah, saw that. I'm sure the conspiracy theorists will latch onto like like a tick to a dog. Sometimes you have to wonder how some people can remember to breath. The gross ignorance on display when it comes to basic science is stunning.
Brad
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Some folks are claiming it was an incoming missle :facepalm: [tinfoil]
Maybe the Norks were aiming for Washington DC with their usual stellar accuracy....
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Yeah, saw that. I'm sure the conspiracy theorists will latch onto like like a tick to a dog. Sometimes you have to wonder how some people can remember to breath. The gross ignorance some people display when it comes to basic science is stunning.
Brad
I thought perhaps that it was some sort of effect with the video, sort of a digital version of a lens flare =|
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In one of the post-explosion cellphone videos, residents speculated that it was a plane crash. Seems like a reasonable assumption, given the information they had at the time. I suspect plane crashes account for a large percentage of cornfield-based fiery explosions. I think I might have made a similar guess with limited information.
Missile strike would have rated a bit lower on the probability scale, but I did turn the shiny side inward by accident. [tinfoil]
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In one of the post-explosion cellphone videos, residents speculated that it was a plane crash. Seems like a reasonable assumption, given the information they had at the time. I suspect plane crashes account for a large percentage of cornfield-based fiery explosions. I think I might have made a similar guess with limited information.
Or Klingon spacecraft crashes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Bow_%28Star_Trek:_Enterprise%29
In 2151, a Klingon named Klaang crashes his Klingon K'toch-class scoutship in Broken Bow, Oklahoma. He dispatches his two Suliban pursuers inside a silo, but is then shot unconscious by a corn farmer.
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reminded me of a flashover from unburned gases finding an ignition source outside the primary burn zone.
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In Texas, they scream "Armadillos !!!" =D
Horny Toads
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Horny Toads
Best keep your back against the wall and don't drop the soap.
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Best keep your back against the wall and don't drop the soap.
Nah, they were my little buddies in the back yard when we lived in Austin. :lol:
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Horny Toads
Yes, we are.
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I think they're kinda cute (the reptile, not neccessarily the students).
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Horny Toads
Only the Texans on the Coast say that.... =D
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Last I heard was the firefighters putting water on the fire may have triggered the explosion.
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11 of the 14 dead were volunteer emergency responders.
They need to build statues or name high schools after them.
If they hadn't got the area mostly evacuated, the death toll would likely have been in the triple digits.
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Last I heard was the firefighters putting water on the fire may have triggered the explosion.
??? You fight anhydrous fires with water just like any other fire. Who is saying it may have triggered the explosion, and why?
Does anyone know if they had a pile of AN laying around? Even forty or fifty tons of that laying around during a fire would be... bad.
Brad
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my organization works very closely with Dallas Fire & Rescue. I never met him, but office-mates worked with Kenny Harris, the Captain who lived nearby and went to assist.
Rest in peace, Captain, with the other brave souls who went after the fire that day.
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??? You fight anhydrous fires with water just like any other fire. Who is saying it may have triggered the explosion, and why?
Does anyone know if they had a pile of AN laying around? Even forty or fifty tons of that laying around during a fire would be... bad.
Brad
Not really sure what the reported issue is but have heard more than once about water mixing with something at the plant makes a violent gas. Some of the locals are kinda pissed about these statements. They were doing the best that they could. You would think that if they were doing something wrong the firefighter from Dallas that was on the scene and died could have stopped or redirected the efforts. Just keep in mind that this is not an official report via the news. Just things heard from those that know people in the area.
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It is very possible that there was another chemical there that mixed with the water and created an explosion. We don't know everything about a scene while we are on it, especially something that you might never even see until you find out later about it.
Also this could have happened:
Never apply water to a large pool of liquid ammonia. Pools of ammonia will autorefrigerate to 28 degrees below 0. Applying relatively warm water will increase the vaporization of ammonia by raising its temperature.
http://www.mda.state.mn.us/chemicals/spills/ammoniaspills/fdresponse.aspx
Water Use
Applying water is the most effective tool to fight an anhydrous ammonia release. Before the decision is made to aggressively attach the release many factors must be reasoned through.
Staging water upwind of a potential ammonia releaseVehicles must approach carefully from up wind or from the side. It is difficult if not impossible to drive across a freshly plowed or muddy field with fire truck apparatus not to mention hauling water out to the site of an ammonia release.
Having enough water is vital. As a rule of thumb, 100 gallons of water is needed for every gallon of product released. A 500-gallon apparatus will only allow a few minutes of support. A long-term sustained attack will require lots of water and in rural locations this means shuttle operations.
If a fire is impinging on the ammonia tank the pressure relief valves must be working properly. Keep the tank cool by applying water on its shell.
Never apply water to a large pool of liquid ammonia. Pools of ammonia will autorefrigerate to 28 degrees below 0. Applying relatively warm water will increase the vaporization of ammonia by raising its temperature.
Before applying water, work with the managers to determine where runoff will flow or pond. A simple earthen dike will contain the ammonia contaminated water for later recovery and disposal.
Using Water to Approach and Secure the Source of an Ammonia Release
Fog streams provide a protective curtain for a safe approach to the source.
Attack using 2, 1½ inch lines. Consider additional lines if available.
Both lines should apply 95 gallons per minute with 100 psi at each nozzle end. (? minutes * 2 lines * 95 gallons = amount of water needed)
Attack crew should consist of 5 members. A crew leader flanked by a nozzle person and hose handler on each of the leader's sides. All on supplied air.
The crew leader should be wearing ammonia rated gloves. All must be on supplied air (SCBAs) and enough air must be available.
Rotate nozzles applying maximum flow with the widest fog pattern.
Angle your approach to avoid high downwind concentrations.
A rapid high and wide rotation is more effective for ammonia absorption.
Nozzle end holders should rotate in unison like the wheels on a bike.
If a line fails or crew member develops skin irritation evacuate immediately and reassess.
Narrow sweep when closing in on source.
Avoid pools of ammonia.
Force vapors down to the ground
Narrow fog sweep significantly as you close in on source.
Crew leader reaches to valve and tightens it stopping flow.
Decontaminate crew members with water prior to leaving scene. k
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Heard on the news this am that there was 54k lbs :O of ammonium nitrate on site. Also heard that if they had more than 400 lbs requires reporting to the feds. If the reports are true that the volume had not been reported, plant owner is toast.
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Both lines should apply 95 gallons per minute with 100 psi at each nozzle end.
We have one truck that can put out that kind of flow. Trouble is that is so slow that it might be next Tuesday before it gets there. Better give us 24 hours notice before you're planning to have an incident.
I think those guidelines are for a leaking tank, not an entire plant on fire. =|
I'm not sure if anybody even uses ammonia around here. Pretty much just hay and livestock.
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Montana native died in the blast:
http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/family-calls-former-laurel-man-killed-in-texas-explosion-a/article_f3de604f-dac0-5a6d-9e9c-432c9449ffb4.html
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Watched one news report with before and after aerial video. Before shot showed covered, open front structure with many ton piles of AN inside. After shot showed structure was gone, large crater in its place. Hmmm...