Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Lee on April 19, 2013, 10:42:03 PM
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Connection to Boston bombing? I figured this would end up in politics, at best, so posted this here.
It's interesting that only a casual reference to the kid's Russian social media page has been made.
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Watching Rock Center on NBC, and they brought up the younger brother's Russian language social networking page and highlighted the "Worldview - Islamic" entry on it.
And they also brought up the older brother's quote "I have no American friends, I don't understand them" from whatever website or twitter posting that was.
No, not beating the war drums over it, but I don't think everyone's hiding it.
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A little different than if he had been a tea party person, or pretty much anything other than Muslim.
Perhaps it just a given these days.
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To our betters in the media, the Most Important Thing is that we not be bigots. That's how they advise us every time something like this happens. "I just hope that this does not become a reason for you Morlocks to hate Muslims."
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To our betters in the media, the Most Important Thing is that we not be bigots. That's how they advise us every time something like this happens. "I just hope that this does not become a reason for you Morlocks to hate Muslims."
But it's okay to hate Rural Americans ;/
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Connection to Boston bombing? I figured this would end up in politics, at best, so posted this here.
It's interesting that only a casual reference to the kid's Russian social media page has been made.
Fox wasn't. Watching the takedown, even Geraldo was saying Muslim, Islamic, or similar like every 10th word
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But it's okay to hate Rural Americans ;/
They don't hate you. They just need to re-educate you. Or at least control you. It's for your own good.
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They don't hate you. They just need to re-educate you. Or at least control you. It's for your own good.
Because I'm bitter and clinging =|
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They don't hate you. They just need to re-educate you. Or at least control you. It's for your own good.
Of course they hate us. Embrace it.
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Of course they hate us. Embrace it.
We know that. I think a lot of them know it. They still think they're right. They still think they need to "civilize" us.
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We know that. I think a lot of them know it. They still think they're right. They still think they need to "civilize" us.
The British thought that, too :lol:
Saorsa!
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I was married into a Muslim family for 26 years. All wonderful people. (OK, I heard the there was a nasty uncle whom they successfully kept way form me.)
I am quite iritated by all this uninformed talk about "those people" as an undifferntiated mass. I suspect those that do so do not know on a personal level any Muslim.
Only semi-related, are you aware of how of how many Arab Muslim women wear false wear leashes? Most as determined by an informal survey by me in face to face observation.
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Only semi-related, are you aware of how of how many Arab Muslim women wear false wear leashes? Most as determined by an informal survey by me in face to face observation.
Leashes, or lashes?
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I was married into a Muslim family for 26 years. All wonderful people. (OK, I heard the there was a nasty uncle whom they successfully kept way form me.)
I am quite iritated by all this uninformed talk about "those people" as an undifferntiated mass. I suspect those that do so do not know on a personal level any Muslim.
Only semi-related, are you aware of how of how many Arab Muslim women wear false wear leashes? Most as determined by an informal survey by me in face to face observation.
Well, I do (know Muslims)
The problem isn't Islam, its that while the radical elements of other religions (e.g. KKK, etc) are met with active scorn, and most religions AID in the removal of such elements, the general consensus is that Muslims do not. While that belief may be invalid, one would think there would be a lot more of "hey, those guys are giving our religion a bad name, lets help get rid of them" instead of -just- "hey, we aren't like those guys"
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I am quite iritated by all this uninformed talk about "those people" as an undifferntiated mass. I suspect those that do so do not know on a personal level any Muslim.
I tend to think that a lot of the "those people" comments are aimed at the radical elements and not so much the "all the wonderful people".
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I tend to think that a lot of the "those people" comments are aimed at the radical elements and not so much the "all the wonderful people".
I agree. Most people really couldn't care less what religion people are. Its when people who self identify as "true {choose your religion}" go and kill a bunch of people.
When people say that they don't like those people, its probably fair to assume the smaller group.
My point remains...I have YET to see a general, religion-wide condemning of the behavior, instead of a "don't blame us as a whole".
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Well, I do (know Muslims)
The problem isn't Islam, its that while the radical elements of other religions (e.g. KKK, etc) are met with active scorn, and most religions AID in the removal of such elements, the general consensus is that Muslims do not. While that belief may be invalid, one would think there would be a lot more of "hey, those guys are giving our religion a bad name, lets help get rid of them" instead of -just- "hey, we aren't like those guys"
I posted this on Arfcom in a thread on a similar topic:
Well, there are a lot of different sects in Islam, and besides the main split between Sunni and Shiites, there's tons of other sub-sects and traditions that branch off through the followings of various writings and Imams, then on top of that there's all the cultural groups of different countries, or ethnicity/tribes within those different countries.
So imagine uh.. .for instance... er... some Catholic French Canadian from Quebec goes ape-*expletive deleted*, and for whatever reason kills a bunch of people in China "in the name of Christianity".
So the Chinese media comes to you, a Presbyterian from the United States, sticks a microphone in your face, and because you're both European/Caucasians from North America, and both "Christians", they want to know what you think about what the guy did and why don't you denounce it.
Well hell, from your perspective the guy's a different religion, a different ethnicity, and from a different country. Your first impulse isn't to denounce it, but to be pissed as to what the hell this French Canadian Catholic even has to do with you... :-X [tinfoil] :P
Now imagine that the majority of the Chinese people and their media, after years and years keep on asking you this, or imply it, and "don't get it", how much of a *expletive deleted* would you give if some Catholic guys from Quebec kept on going over there and killing them?
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S h i i t e == expletive deleted?
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I've got nothing against Muslims. I do have something against the ones who think it is their duty to kill people unlike themselves. If a Klan member set off bombs in Harlem, the media would be talking about nothing but the Klan and racism. From initial reports, it appears that the older brother's distorted view of his faith was the primary motivation for this act.
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The biggest problem non-spoldey muslims have is that the fundy/splodey muslims hew closer to the orthodox reading of their faith's big documents. The labels used by most in the west are not helpful in conveying this.
Mohammed was a conqueror and murdered non-muslim men & women out of hand when they were inconvenient. There is a big difference between WWJD? and WWMD?
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Well, I do (know Muslims)
The problem isn't Islam, its that while the radical elements of other religions (e.g. KKK, etc) are met with active scorn, and most religions AID in the removal of such elements, the general consensus is that Muslims do not. While that belief may be invalid, one would think there would be a lot more of "hey, those guys are giving our religion a bad name, lets help get rid of them" instead of -just- "hey, we aren't like those guys"
I'm curious about how you expect them to do that? Go out as armed roving gangs?
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I'm curious about how you expect them to do that? Go out as armed roving gangs?
Great point. Its a real bite when the fundys kill you and your family if you speak up. Does keep folks from opposing the fringe.
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Great point. Its a real bite when the fundys kill you and your family if you speak up. Does keep folks from opposing the fringe.
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I'm curious about how you expect them to do that? Go out as armed roving gangs?
[sarcasm]
You know, you guys are TOTALLY RIGHT, there is NOTHING they could do to help rid their religion of the negative "splody" types, and if we want them to stop "splody-y-ing" we have to find them ourselves, because its not the responsibility of a group to police itself, when that group is harming others.
[/sarcasm]
Okay, here is my solution:
1. Find out which town/village/family the splody guy came from.
2. Kill EVERYBODY in that unit.
3. Go on the news saying "damn straight, we killed everyone, because you guys can't seem to find the bad guys yourselves, and guess what, we care going to keep doing this"
3. Repeat (I guarantee, they will run out of people before we run out of bombs)
Because you know what, I'm sick of this religion of peace crap, you don't see a 14-yr old Mormon going to another country to BLOW THEMSELVES UP. And that's a religion that was persecuted by OUR country.
So it needs to be a decision, find the bad guys, and kill them, or we will, and we are less....precise.
Sounds terrible? Sounds like murder of innocents? Well, at least the innocents we would kill are in so e way affiliated with the bad guys, not say, an 8 year old kid at a sporting event six thousand goddamn miles from the crap my "terrorism" is protesting.
Screw them.
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I posted this on Arfcom in a thread on a similar topic:
You are also right, there are many different sects...lets see if we can find one that doesn't have splody elements:
Sunni: damn...those crazy AQ bastards
Shia: crap, Hamas, Libya, etc.
Hrm...not much help, seems like breaking it down into a catholic/Protestant like divide to see if we can isolate which part of the religion of peace thinks of it in a more...energetic nature.
So you tell me, can YOU narrow it down to ONE region/sect?
Because your analogy seems to rely on (not my country)/(not my sect). When it seems to me, using your analogy, we have québécois Presbyterians, American Mormons, Argentinian Lutherans, German baptists, Japanese Catholics and every other country/sect combo you can get.
Oh wait you say...why didn't people come down this hard on Irish Catholics with the whole IRA thing...well, it turns out the troubles got way more attention when they STOPPED targeting innocent kids/families/etc. because it tends to piss people off and hurt your cause...in effect they policed themselves, and it WAS a specific region/sect.
The problem is these people aren't saying "I'm blowing you in another country up because I'm Shia" (referring to terrorism HERE) they are saying Islam. Wen the self-grouping doesn't occur, and when the rest don't condemn a specific region/sect (ie "don't blame Islam"...with no follow up of "blame....something") others can't help but apply the same non-grouping that you are so vehement about.
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Your analysis of the irish "troubles" is most unique.
Not realistic
We had similar action ob the tez with aim
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Okay, here is my solution:
1. Find out which town/village/family the splody guy came from.
2. Kill EVERYBODY in that unit.
3. Go on the news saying "damn straight, we killed everyone, because you guys can't seem to find the bad guys yourselves, and guess what, we care going to keep doing this"
3. Repeat (I guarantee, they will run out of people before we run out of bombs)
These two came from Boston. Do we kill the whole town, or just the Watertown and Cambridge districts?
Maj Hasan was born in Arlington and went to HS in Roanoke? Level both, or can we assume that he got weird in HS? Or for that matter his last home of record was Ft. Hood. So we kill everyone there?
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These two came from Boston. Do we kill the whole town, or just the Watertown and Cambridge districts?
Maj Hasan was born in Arlington and went to HS in Roanoke? Level both, or can we assume that he got weird in HS? Or for that matter his last home of record was Ft. Hood. So we kill everyone there?
Pesky details spoil it
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The biggest problem non-spoldey muslims have is that the fundy/splodey muslims hew closer to the orthodox reading of their faith's big documents. The labels used by most in the west are not helpful in conveying this.
Mohammed was a conqueror and murdered non-muslim men & women out of hand when they were inconvenient. There is a big difference between WWJD? and WWMD?
[sarcasm]
MO didn't do that, Islam is the religion of peace, I mean read the Koran, its all about peace, and nothing about proper soldiers of Islam
[/sarcasm]
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These two came from Boston. Do we kill the whole town, or just the Watertown and Cambridge districts?
Maj Hasan was born in Arlington and went to HS in Roanoke? Level both, or can we assume that he got weird in HS? Or for that matter his last home of record was Ft. Hood. So we kill everyone there?
Can we narrow it down further? Better yet, how about we shoot my friend who lived across the street from them?
Pesky details spoil it
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Listen jackass, you know what I mean. Reducto ad absurdum is nice and all, but makes for a poor debate.
We don't have to level the town, because its not like they were hiding among similar folks, Hassan was spouting off militant Islamist crap well before he went all shooty, and these guys (the older) started off saying some *expletive deleted*it as well. But those communities are hamstrung by the schizophrenic trade between "see something, say something" and the PC shitstorm that decends on those who profile Muslim spouting wacko stuff as terrorist. So find the closest group that can be identified WITH the most common trait. Unfortunately, its THE GODDAMN RELIGION.
Do you think Arlington and Cambridge would say "we don't know why you guys are harshing on them?" Do you think the people of Watertown weren't trying to get these aholes out of their community? No. However, most communities in the world aren't like that.
For fuc4s sake, bin laden lived in a goddamn city next to a military academy for 10 years. People talk. He should have been found.
Anyway, if you don't like my solution, propose another one, and tell me how it works.
Otherwise, tell me exactly what you do on a day to day basis to stop bad guys .
If you can't do either, and still want to PC my ass, fine, but ill tell you one thing, the person I know who has by far the most knowledge of the religion, all of its sects, dialects, behaviors, etc (intel /linguist marine who goes to these places) thinks basically all the PC stuff is a pile of crap, and people have no goddamn clue.
And after doing my own reading and research, he's pretty much right.
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You're suggesting slaughtering entire villages of innocent people and I'm reducto ad absurdium?
Look man, I'm not going all PC. I've spent a fair amount of time traveling to various muslim heavy places, and have been forced to work with the "modern, moderate" arabs. In general, Islam is a religion of conquest and murder. Many of the people worldwide that practice it are not cool people. To say the least.
My experience has been that the peaceful coexisting islam you see in the US and western Europe is the radical sect, and "mainstream" islam (as much as it can be pinned down) would be all about violent conquest if they 1. weren't mostly at starvation level existence and 2. thought they could win.
That said, let's slow down for a moment. We are the United States of America. We are the Good Guys. We DO NOT slaughter entire towns because someone that once lived there murdered some of us. Period. Full Stop. If you're moral code is actually OK with that, and you're not just venting, you are missing something important.
That said, Yes we can't just hide in our heads in the sand. We need to hunt the actual terrorists down, we need to cut their logistical and financial support, we need to destroy their training areas, and if a Nation-State is foolish enough to get caught supporting them we need to declare war on that nation and remove it's ability to give that support.
And American Soldiers will die doing this. And there will be some innocent deaths in the shitholes we're fighting in, despite our best efforts. And it STILL won't be 100% and some innocent Americans will die occasionally because despite our best efforts Evil will occasionally get lucky. *expletive deleted*ing deal with it. it WILL happen. Because the alternative is to become as evil as that we're fighting, and still lose.
I have a tattoo on my leg that says, in german: "And when you look long into an abyss the abyss also looks into you." It's a partial quote. Fully it says:
He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.
Dude was wrong about a lot, but a stopped clock and all that. As a US soldier it's on my leg to remind me that there is actually good and evil, and I need to be on the right side. We're fighting monsters here, and you need to take a deep breath and back away from the abyss.
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Anyway, if you don't like my solution, propose another one, and tell me how it works.
Well to get rid of the view that it is the religion of violence, it certainly wouldn't be to go out and slaughter a bunch of innocent people because they happened to be in the wrong area. :facepalm:
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You're suggesting slaughtering entire villages of innocent people and I'm reducto ad absurdium?
Look man, I'm not going all PC. I've spent a fair amount of time traveling to various muslim heavy places, and have been forced to work with the "modern, moderate" arabs. In general, Islam is a religion of conquest and murder. Many of the people worldwide that practice it are not cool people. To say the least.
My experience has been that the peaceful coexisting islam you see in the US and western Europe is the radical sect, and "mainstream" islam (as much as it can be pinned down) would be all about violent conquest if they 1. weren't mostly at starvation level existence and 2. thought they could win.
That said, let's slow down for a moment. We are the United States of America. We are the Good Guys. We DO NOT slaughter entire towns because someone that once lived there murdered some of us. Period. Full Stop. If you're moral code is actually OK with that, and you're not just venting, you are missing something important.
Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki.
We destroyed those towns, and killed millions because of material support to those who killed us, and to prevent their desired, and acted upon conquest of others. The total number of US civilians killed in WWII that motivated that? Less than the number killed on 9/11.
Are you saying we weren't the good guys then? We annihilated whole countries, with -civilian- death tolls in the millions, because those civilians were residents of countries that presented a danger to our way of life.
My 'moral high ground' is nothing more esoteric than that of the US armed forces of the "greatest generation". We burned to the ground cities of civilians who for the mot part had no direct involvement in the planned execution of whole races, and the expressed desire of conquest.
How is this different?
Now, I a, jet making an argument here that simply attempting to root out a radical element on our own is extremely difficult when the parent group of at element on the whole does nothing to help, and is not motivated to do so partially because due to our "precision", the existence of that radical element causes them less pain at our hands.
My argument (hey if you can quote Nietzsche) is Machiavellian, but other than some relatively recent "morality", that even I actually do have an issue with, it does work.
My overall point was that the type of response we currently employ doesn't deter, because there is no opposing societal pain. The radical Elements are thus emboldened...my idea is that if we don't act disproportionate NOW, the radical elements will eventually employ an attack(ie NBC) that will cross the same bounds we crossed in WWII and it would become much more societally acceptable to simply adopt "either us or them" in which case, we will win. By acting now, to encourage the rooting out or eliminating of those elements, I propose that it will, in the long run, prevent the total annihilation of that society.
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Your argument has merits at the logical angle, birdman... but it falls apart at the moral level.
The difference between 1940's America and 1940's military, versus that of today:
1. Technological advancement of armaments and tactics. Precision targeting was not to the state of the art it is today.
2. The battlefront: There were battle lines. Hundreds of thousands of German soldiers putting their lives between US troops and Hitler and the heads of the Nazi party. Decapitating that movement dictated that the fortified positions be overwhelmed.
3. Industrial control and "spheres of influence." I really enjoyed studying the economic angles of WWII in the Pacific theater, as well as the SCAP occupation, in college. Did my thesis on it. We bombed Nagasaki/Hiroshima for several reasons, but none of them was to attempt to culturally recondition the Japanese people. It was to terrify the Emperor, to destroy economic resources in those cities, to weaken safe harbors for the Japanese navy, and to test the effectiveness of the weapon. We fire-bombed Dresden to destroy the manufacturing facilities there and drive fortified positions away from the location. Not to re-educate German citizens.
Today... we'd end up going to war with a combined EU, Russia and China if we started tomahawking entire Bedouin villages just because some radical came from one.
We have supersecretsquirrel satellites that can read my newspaper from high orbit. We have NSA supercomputers that sniff every bit of data I send from my fracking laptop, even if it's encrypted. We have domestic law enforcement disregarding 230 year old civic virtues and getting away with it. You probably know of a dozen things more to add to my modest list of 3 surveillance police state bothersome attributes, even more empowering.
We've already thrown away enough civility in the form of proper investigative technique.
Shall we also throw away the last remnant of civility so that we can couple brutality to the authoritarian self-entitlement to our rights?
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Terrorism - mass killing intended to scare a population into submission.
Blowing up whole towns to make an example is terrorism just the same as the marathon bombing, it just has more victims.
We should not be supporting terrorism.
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Terrrorism does not require mass killings at all. Strategic ones
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Terrrorism does not require mass killings at all. Strategic ones
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I'm not even sure the marathon bombing death toll rises to the level of "mass" ???
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I'm not even sure the marathon bombing death toll rises to the level of "mass" ???
Tell that to the Feds that charged the kid with using a WMD.
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I'm not even sure the marathon bombing death toll rises to the level of "mass" ???
Fun fact, on the same day 75 people were killed and 350 wounded in terrorist attacks in Iraq.
Divided with an even distribution, around 100 people in America die in motor vehicle accidents every day.
Divided with an even distribution, around 12 people in America die in the course of the workplace duties every day.
And yet, all focus is on an event where.... 3 people died?
Calling it a big deal is utterly lacking in perspective, IMO.
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. . . Today... we'd end up going to war with a combined EU, Russia and China if we started tomahawking entire Bedouin villages just because some radical came from one.
I get the point, but in a literal sense, I really don't think there's that much international love for those people.
As long as we're playing the numbers game, a few years back, someone reported the results of several surveys purporting to show that illegal aliens kill about 25 people a day in the USA, counting both vehicular crashes and outright murder. Compare that to losses in the Middle East.
( Disclaimer: Source is WND http://www.wnd.com/2006/11/39031/ )