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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: drewtam on April 30, 2013, 09:03:54 PM
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I am reloading 45acp. This is the first reloading I have ever done.
The starting load (which is what I am targeting), is 5.8 grains. Per the recipe I am following, this should measure out at 0.73cm^3.
Therefore, load data says...
5.8/0.73 = 7.94grains/cc
Using this to set my measuring, I find that it delivers too little powder mass. I increase the volumetric setting to 1.00cc.
At 1.00cc setting, I measure out 10 loads into my scale. I measured the mass on the scale. I did this 10 times. Here are the results in grains:
57.5
55.7
58.7
56.1
56.7
58.5
57.6
58.1
58.3
56.3
Minimum value = 55.7
Maximum value = 58.7
Average = 57.4
Median = 57.6
std dev of sample = 1.08
density = ~5.76grains/cc
First question:
Is the discrepancy of density between the recipe and my measurement cause for concern?
Second question:
Is the mass variability of my volumetric measuring tool's result (std dev +/-1.08grains) acceptable?
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I respectfully note that I can't make any sense out of your post.
You haven't told us what powder, but it doesn't really matter in the context of your question. But you also haven't told us how you are measuring your powder. IMHO you are concerned about the wrong things. The powder DENSITY doesn't matter at all. All that matters is that you get the correct charge of powder in each case.
You are looking for 5.8 grains. Your average results over ten groups of ten cases range from a low of 5.57 to a high of 5.87. That's a variation of 0.3 grains, which isn't the end of the world if you're at the low (starting) and of the range, but it's higher than it should be. And, since each of the numbers you show is an average of ten cases, the actual variation may be more ... some individual cases may be lower than 5.57 and some may be higher than 5.87.
However you are dropping your charges, I think your technique needs to be fine-tuned quite a bit. Don't go by the average of averages. Charge ten cases, weigh each load, and if the variation is greater than +/- .1 grain from the 5.8 you're looking for, try again. Once again, with starting loads that amount of variation won't be unsafe, but it will affect velocity and thus accuracy, and it's more variation than you should have.
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The starting load (which is what I am targeting), is 5.8 grains. Per the recipe I am following, this should measure out at 0.73cm^3.
Grains of what?
Just a stab in the dark -- are you using Lee dippers or a Lee autodisk powder measure? Tell us about your equipment.
57.5
55.7
58.7
56.1
56.7
58.5
57.6
58.1
58.3
56.3
So, 5.6 to 5.8 grains, basically. If you're using dippers, you need to get your technique consistent. If you're using an Autodisk or Pro Autodisk, not all powders (so I read, gunboard hearsay) meter well through it. With Alliant Bullseye (which I use for pretty much all my pistol needs), my Pro Autodisk is pretty consistent.
If you're using a barrel type powder measure (RCBS Uniflow or something like that), consistent technique, and not letting your powder run low. Maybe a powder baffle. And, is there a lock nut on the adjusting screw that needs to be tight, that isn't and your adjustment is wandering?
If you're in the middle of the published range, that kind of slop probably won't matter. Top of the range, you need to be accurate and consistent.
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Drew, what are you using to dispense powder? Also, what kind of powder are you using? Round, flake, cut rod?
I have a Lee Safety Powder Measure.... And it's got a couple of little foibles - first, it's most accurate when I keep the powder hopper topped off... Also, consistency of motion results in more consistent powder throws. In other words, use the same motion, with the same general speed, etc.... Finally, it's definitely most consistent with either ball or flake powder. Rod type powder usually gives it the most trouble, because the (silicone, I think) wiper that closes the volumetric dispenser doesn't work as well with rod powder. That said, your standard deviation is approx 0.1 grain per throw... That's about the limit for a volumetric dispenser. As others have said, measure 10 individual charges and look at the variation between those...
I also have an auto-disk on my progressive press. It is *very* consistent with ball type powder in my .45 loads... Less than 0.1 grain variation.
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The volume is dropped onto the scale using a Lee Perfect Powder Measure. The powder is being dropped onto a dish that is made to attach to the scale. (Tare weight is accounted for.) The scale is a Lee Safety Powder Scale. It is a balance scale, adjustable to 0.1 grains.
The powder is Alliant's Green Dot, which is a flat circular flake looking powder.
I remeasured for individual throws as requested. Since it is a smaller thing to measure, I lose some precision. But as you suggest, maybe I gain some accuracy.
When I took these new measurements I did 2 things different:
1- I rechecked the 0 balance on the scale. I think this needed slight adjusting, so I adjusted it.
2- I filled the powder measure hopper to near the top per a-driver's comment. In the previous data, it was half full.
Here are the new results in grains:
5.9
5.7
5.7
6.0
5.9
5.8
5.9
6.0
5.7
5.9
min 5.7
max 6.0
avg 5.9
median 5.9
sample std dev 0.12
Obviously, I'll need to back off on the volume setting to recenter on 5.8grains. If this is typical and accepted variation per throw, then I might center a little lower to keep the distribution tails below 5.9.
You haven't told us what powder, but it doesn't really matter in the context of your question. But you also haven't told us how you are measuring your powder. IMHO you are concerned about the wrong things. The powder DENSITY doesn't matter at all. All that matters is that you get the correct charge of powder in each case.
That answers my first question, thanks. I'll ignore the density calculations and any difference between my measurements and the published estimates.
That just leaves the other question, is the variability per throw that I am measuring reasonable/typical and acceptable?
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Your 0.3 grain spread is a little wide - And yes, I conflated the Safety Powder Scale with the Perfect Powder Measure... :) I have both of those, it's what I started with when I started reloading...
Knowing the powder you're using, I'm thinking that it's mostly a technique thing at this point... One thing I heard suggested was a "lever down to lever down" dispensing. This is to ensure that the powder doesn't "settle" into the measuring chamber...
So, starting with the lever down (from dumping your last charge), raise the lever all the way until it hits the stop. Give it a count (so it's the same "open" time) that's consistent from charge to charge, then smoothly return the lever to the down position until it hits the stop.
Also, make sure that the side screw that adjusts the tension on the chamber is tight enough that it's somewhat difficult to move while still allowing a consistent motion.
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I am not familiar with using Lee equipment and this is not to be green is more superior than red.
I use RCBS reloading equipment and once I dial the powder measure dialed in I get the same charge each time. I'm so anal that I will charge a tray's worth of cartridges and make sure each is at the same level in the case before seating the bullet.
I also make sure that I run the powder measure the same way each time, stop at the top and stop at the bottom. Are you being consistent with your running of the powder measure?
Extruded powder I weigh each load because I have never had good luck with consistent metering.
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Consistency in powder measure operation can often make the difference.
My old Lyman powder measure even has a "knocker" on the side.
You make a full-stroke powder arm throw, and flick the "knocker" against the powder measure body to dislodge sticky powder in the funnel, and settle the charge in the case.
For pistol rounds, one or two-tenths variation won't amount to much in downrange accuracy - you're not creating sub-MOA ammo.
However, if you're on the ragged edge of excessive pressure signs at the mean charge weight, then you've got a problem.
It won't be faster, but you can do like I've done with my rifle rounds, using one of the various Red/Yellow/Green digital powder dispensers that weigh each and every charge. ;)
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The volume is dropped onto the scale using a Lee Perfect Powder Measure. The powder is being dropped onto a dish that is made to attach to the scale. (Tare weight is accounted for.) The scale is a Lee Safety Powder Scale. It is a balance scale, adjustable to 0.1 grains.
I use Lee equipment, and it's good stuff -- within its price range and within its limitations.
The Lee Safety Scale is, in all honesty, a lousy scale to use the way you have to be using it. It is designed to be locked in at the reading you want and then used as a GO / NO-GO indicator. While it no doubt can be used without the locking feature to measure the weight of an unknown charge, that's not what it was designed for.
I have graduated to an Autodisk powder measure mounted on my press when I load .45 Auto, but I still use the Perfect Powder Measure when I'm loading 9mm and .38 Special. My charges don't vary by more than +/- 0.05 grains. I load with Winchester 231. I don't know if that's supposed to meter well through Lee equipment or not, but I've been happy with it.
I remeasured for individual throws as requested. Since it is a smaller thing to measure, I lose some precision. But as you suggest, maybe I gain some accuracy.
When I took these new measurements I did 2 things different:
1- I rechecked the 0 balance on the scale. I think this needed slight adjusting, so I adjusted it.
2- I filled the powder measure hopper to near the top per a-driver's comment. In the previous data, it was half full.
Here are the new results in grains:
5.9
5.7
5.7
6.0
5.9
5.8
5.9
6.0
5.7
5.9
min 5.7
max 6.0
avg 5.9
median 5.9
sample std dev 0.12
Obviously, I'll need to back off on the volume setting to recenter on 5.8grains. If this is typical and accepted variation per throw, then I might center a little lower to keep the distribution tails below 5.9.
If the 5.8 is a starting load, then a range of 5.7 to 5.9 would be acceptable IMHO. But ... stop being a statistician. You shoot one bullet at a time. It only takes ONE overcharge to blow up a gun, and it only takes ONE squib to obstruct the barrel -- which leads to the NEXT shot blowing up the gun. Others may disagree, but IMHO when reloading the average charge, the median charge, and the standard deviation don't mean a danged thing. Your concern is that EACH charge be as close to the desired value as possible.
To that end, although I know for a fact others recommend against doing this, when using the Perfect Powder Measure I have developed a habit of giving three gentle taps with the tip of my finger when the handle is at the top of the stroke, and again when it's at the bottom. I do this to break any surface tension or "static cling" and try to get the powder to flow the same way each throw. I can't tell you how the results compare to not doing that, because I have never not done it.
That just leaves the other question, is the variability per throw that I am measuring reasonable/typical and acceptable?
I'd say the variations you're getting are marginally acceptable at the starting load level. I would still try to get the variation down to +/- 0.1 or better if you can.
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If you can't get your technique to tighten up the spreads then also consider switching to a comparable powder that meters nicer. I don't think your spreads will blow up any guns provided you don't head to max load land. Also consider basic lab technique with your scale, be consistent, keep it clean. I've usually used a dillon digital and I stay after it, it will drift .3 gr from static, I re-zero often, sanity check it with known weights and try to keep it isolated from the slamming around of a reloading press.
Static cling, this worked for me and I don't know why. I used to have a measure that stuck powder to the walls like crazy, I put a piece of aluminum foil on the top then crushed the cap down over it, zero static cling. As a side benefit it seals the measure nicely.
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The powder is being dropped onto a dish that is made to attach to the scale.
That technique could cause some of your powder bounce off and out of the dish. For best results drop the powder into an empty case (with spent primer still in place) pressed against the dispenser mouth, then slowly dip the contents from that onto the aluminum dish.
The Lee Safety Scale is, in all honesty, a lousy scale to use the way you have to be using it. It is designed to be locked in at the reading you want and then used as a GO / NO-GO indicator. While it no doubt can be used without the locking feature to measure the weight of an unknown charge, that's not what it was designed for.
I never could get mine to lock... it has the little button thingy on the slider, but it seems that if I press down on it, it has no place to go into and would snap something if forced...
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Flake powders, especially ones with fairly large flakes like Blue Dot, Red Dot, Green Dot, and Unique, generally show the largest per-charge variation because of how the flakes pack, or don't pack, into the measuring chamber.
It's also why I generally no longer use flake-type powders for my reloading.
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I started with the Autodisk and Safety scale. I've also used the "perfect" powder measure.
The Lee scale is probably as accurate ans any balance beam scale within it's range. The "perfect" powder measure is anything but perfect but it will work. I used to load quite a bit of W291/H110 and the Autodisk tended to leak the finer grain powders but with just enough tweaking and fidgit-ing it could generally be made to throw a fairly consistant charge.
As others have said for general pistol blasting ammo +/-.1 isn't a big deal when your charge isn't already at the max load end of things. I'f you're going for extreme consistency, get a powder trickler, set your measure to throw just a tad light of desired and trickle the charge to the exact weight as it hangs on the scale. I've done that with both pistol and rifle loads, I'm not a good enough shooter to measure the difference at the target.
Just remember, this actually IS rocket science.
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Even if 5.8 grains were the max load from a manual, unless something else goes wrong (e.g., a barrel obstruction or a deeply seated bullet) a few tenths of a grain over won't blow up the gun; there IS a safety margin built in, and any quality firearm will stand up to a modest overage.
It is NOT repeat NOT recommended to intentionally use that safety margin to make excessively hot loads!
With 5.8 grain loads of a flake or spherical powder, extreme variation should be no more than .2 grains; with good technique, a good powder measure should reduce that to UNDER 0.1 grains, which won't even be picked up with your average powder scale.
I use an RCBS Uniflo power measure for most loading, except for the built-in powder measure on my Dillon SDB. Both work about as well as the other. Don't have personal experience with Lee measures.
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You can measure tenths of a grain with a Lee scale ??? =D
It's been so long since I set my powder measure .... I just got it close and then forgot about it. Each charge may be "unique" but I'm just loading target rounds.
5.0 grains per pull:
1 pull for .38/.357
2 pulls for .45 LC (hotter than SAA but well within the margins for Ruger)
=)
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Lee powder measures work really well- REALLY well if you consider the price.
A good rule of thumb is to use the LPPM for extruded powders and an auto-disk with adjustable charge bar for ball and flake powders.
It's been so long since I set my powder measure ....
When I get a good rifle load with the LPPM, I set it and forget it. I buy one for each cartridge that I shoot regularly. The charge weights might vary a little from lot to lot, but the volume of the charge doesn't.
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Thanks for the help guys. I changed my process so that my target load 5.7grains is locked onto the scale. I check each pull of the LPPM and will add or remove a few flakes at a time until I get a perfect 5.7 grain mass. It is slow and tedious, but I am confident of a near perfect mass load.
I tightened up the LPPM throw handle, that seems to help consistency a little bit. I think I also notice the consistency improve with time. It could either be operator, or the machine wearing in a little. Who knows?
Min OAL is 1.175", per the recipe. With the bullet seat die adjusted, I am producing 1.180" (+/-0.001"), per digital calipers. Any more good advice on seating, before I get a big batch done? I've completed about 28 rounds. I got about 500 more to go. Should I go test fire the 28 before finishing the rest of the brass?
Does 45 need a tight crimp? No crimp?
Thanks.
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Thanks for the help guys. I changed my process so that my target load 5.7grains is locked onto the scale. I check each pull of the LPPM and will add or remove a few flakes at a time until I get a perfect 5.7 grain mass. It is slow and tedious, but I am confident of a near perfect mass load.
You're probably taking WAY more time than you need to on the "perfect 5.7". It's just not that critical in most pistol calibers, especially when not on either extreme on the load data. While I would take that time with some of my rifle loads to get "match grade", the time cost vs benefit for pistol caliber is just not there. You'll need to consider what your time is worth. If the current measure is just not throwing +- 0.1, I would really look into getting one that does, or as others have suggested, try switching powders to something your current powder measure likes. Otherwise, I may have missed it, but have you calibrated your scale with good weights? You're working with two pieces of equipment, either of which could be off. Do you have a friend with a powder measure and scale? Maybe you could borrow theirs to also check each of your components.
As for crimping, I use a taper crimp die on my Dillon 650, set to just barely crimp for reliability of feeding. If you're shooting hot loads in something like a .44mag, you generally want a good roll crimp.
EDIT: The taper crimp is for .45acp.
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Also - is the powder measure brand brand new? If so - one thing that I remember reading about the LPPM is to run at least one full hopper worth of powder through it - it seems to coat the measure a bit and then reduces static cling and "lubricates" the measure a little bit.
Here's a thread with some tips and suggestions for the LPPM:
http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum99/15706.html
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Don't you have to avoid over-crimping semi-auto cartridges, because they headspace on the cartridge mouth?
Revolvers are so much simpler =)
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I'd suggest ditching the Lee PPM.
It was my first powder measure, and I started my reloading days with that PPM, an RCBS Partner Press, and a set of RCBS .45acp dies.
After about a year, I got my first rifle, a .30-30. So I started reloading for that, too. Used Reloder 15.
My first 200 or so rounds were okay. Then one day, I was visually examining the throw level in the case and saw it was off. I started weighing each charge, and I was all over the place. I was aiming for a 28.5gr throw, and I was anywhere from 29.2 to 31.5. Way overcharged, and highly inconsistent.
I took the measure apart and the elastomer wiper had been torn to shreds.
I got an RCBS Uniflow and haven't had a problem with it since. I also have a Dillon on my SDB, and a spare Lyman that I picked up at a garage sale for cheap. No problems with those either.
Heck, I even have a 4-hole die plate for a Dillon 450, loaded with Lee .223 dies and sporting a Lee AutoDisk Pro. Once in a while I go over to a friend's house and use his Dillon 450 to crank out several hundred 55gr .223 rounds at once, and I use this setup for it. My standards are low for the AutoDisk since this is just plinking ammo for sub-200 yard stuff, but it seems consistent enough.
That elastomer wiper in the PPM is a horrible idea.
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I use a Lee PPM to "rough charge" rifle cases, then trickle them up to my desired level.
Chris
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It was my first powder measure, and I started my reloading days with that PPM, an RCBS Partner Press, and a set of RCBS .45acp dies.
After about a year, I got my first rifle, a .30-30. So I started reloading for that, too. Used Reloder 15.
My first 200 or so rounds were okay. Then one day, I was visually examining the throw level in the case and saw it was off. I started weighing each charge, and I was all over the place. I was aiming for a 28.5gr throw, and I was anywhere from 29.2 to 31.5. Way overcharged, and highly inconsistent.
I took the measure apart and the elastomer wiper had been torn to shreds.
The quality seems to vary. Some people have a horrible time with them, others find them to be more accurate and repeatable than measures costing 5x as much. I'm in the latter category.
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\Does 45 need a tight crimp? No crimp?
Are you talking about a taper crimp?
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Thanks for the help guys. I changed my process so that my target load 5.7grains is locked onto the scale. I check each pull of the LPPM and will add or remove a few flakes at a time until I get a perfect 5.7 grain mass. It is slow and tedious, but I am confident of a near perfect mass load.
I tightened up the LPPM throw handle, that seems to help consistency a little bit. I think I also notice the consistency improve with time. It could either be operator, or the machine wearing in a little. Who knows?
Min OAL is 1.175", per the recipe. With the bullet seat die adjusted, I am producing 1.180" (+/-0.001"), per digital calipers. Any more good advice on seating, before I get a big batch done? I've completed about 28 rounds. I got about 500 more to go. Should I go test fire the 28 before finishing the rest of the brass?
Does 45 need a tight crimp? No crimp?
Thanks.
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Way too wrapped up about the .1 grain. Run it, will probably be more consistent than with all the tinkering.
Crimp? Minimum.
What bullets are these? Plated bullets or FMJ? In general with any auto pistol you want just enough taper crimp to remove the bell from the case. The case tension holds the bullet, not the crimp. Plated are fun, since they are soft lead if you use too much crimp the bullet will squish, the case will spring back and you will end up with a loose bullet and a horribly inaccurate load. I measure the case diameter further down where the bullet has spread it out, then right at the crimp. Check with a case gage, if it chambers, it's good.
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Min OAL is 1.175", per the recipe. With the bullet seat die adjusted, I am producing 1.180" (+/-0.001"), per digital calipers. Any more good advice on seating, before I get a big batch done? I've completed about 28 rounds. I got about 500 more to go. Should I go test fire the 28 before finishing the rest of the brass?
Does 45 need a tight crimp? No crimp?
Thanks.
Yes go do a test fire before you load 500 of them. Your pistol might not like something about the bullet profile or the way you are crimping them. I just take the bell away on .45.
jim
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Just enough crimp to keep it from moving in the cases from the recoil of firing other rounds.
Yes, go shoot some, adjust as needed, shoot again, rinse, wring, repeat, until you got what you want, then load a bunch.
Also, you do need to run at least a hopper of powder through it before charging cases. There's a little graphite in all powders and some of that will stay in you LPPM to smooth it out/break it in. I've had mine for several years now and it drops consistently. Maybe +/-.1 every 50th load. 1-49 are dead smack on.
And yes, as long as your not at the top or bottom end of the load chart, +/-.1 grain ain't gonna matter a whole hill of beans, especially if you're shooting plated bullets for practice/plinking.
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Static cling, this worked for me and I don't know why. I used to have a measure that stuck powder to the walls like crazy, I put a piece of aluminum foil on the top then crushed the cap down over it, zero static cling. As a side benefit it seals the measure nicely.
The Lee Perfect Powder Measure and the Lee Autodisk Powder Measure use essentially the same red plastic reservoir. I put a sheet of anti-static dryer stuff under the cap of each.
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Are you talking about a taper crimp?
I don't know what I am talking about. The owners manual that came with the kit said that the crimp is adjustable on the die, and gives instruction how to adjust it.
Way too wrapped up about the .1 grain. Run it, will probably be more consistent than with all the tinkering.
And yes, as long as your not at the top or bottom end of the load chart, +/-.1 grain ain't gonna matter a whole hill of beans, especially if you're shooting plated bullets for practice/plinking.
So here's the deal. Choosing green dot was clearly a bad choice for first load. I bought it back in 2012 'cause I could find a few different recipes, and it was available at the local LGS. Now, there are no good alternatives available in all the craziness of 2013.
What I didn't realize at the time is that these recipes for green dot don't give much room for error. For these 200gr bullets, the starting load is 5.8grain, the do not exceed is 5.9. :O
Also, you do need to run at least a hopper of powder through it before charging cases. There's a little graphite in all powders and some of that will stay in you LPPM to smooth it out/break it in. I've had mine for several years now and it drops consistently. Maybe +/-.1 every 50th load. 1-49 are dead smack on.
The Lee Perfect Powder Measure and the Lee Autodisk Powder Measure use essentially the same red plastic reservoir. I put a sheet of anti-static dryer stuff under the cap of each.
Thanks for the tips.
What bullets are these? Plated bullets or FMJ?
Double struck plated, Berry's bullets. 200gr, hollow point.
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What I didn't realize at the time is that these recipes for green dot don't give much room for error. For these 200gr bullets, the starting load is 5.8grain, the do not exceed is 5.9. :O
That usually means that someone was lazy when brewing the recipe for that particular bullet or powder. The real min/max are probably far more spread apart than that, but the author didn't test it so he's not going to publish it.
I've gone under "starting loads" many times. Most often with cheap lead cast bullets where load data is sometimes scarce.
Yes, you do theoretically have to worry about "detonation." But that tends to happen when you have so little powder in the case that it is less than 50% full, and the spark from the primer coats the entire surface area of the powder all at once rather than burning from back to front. And mostly using fast pistol powders in larger volume rifle cases, brewing up 1000fps .30-30 loads and things like that.
Your components: Green Dot, 200gr plated (not jacketed), mixed brass.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?100896-Green-Dot-in-45-acp-200-gr-LSWC
Speer reloading Manual #9 lists Green dot under a 200 gr lead bullet .
CCI-300 primer
5.0 grs. for 833 f/s
4.6 grs. for 729 f/s
No pressure data however this is the data for a 200 gr Jacketed HP
6.0 grs. for 957 f/s
5.6 grs. for 896 f/s
Generally you don't drive plated bullets to the same speed as jacketed. Plated bullets are soft swaged, then dunked in a chemical bath to put a very thin layer of copper on them. It's much thinner than a jacket.
And, they're soft swaged. Not hard-cast. You can drive a big mean sumbich 230gr hardcast lead bullet as fast as pressure will let you from a .45acp. Do the same thing with a soft swaged bullet and you get bad leading, boil-off from behind the bullet, gas burning the bullet from the sides, and bad accuracy.
5.8gr does not seem like a particularly ideal load for your chosen projectile, and I'd suggest dropping it at least 0.5gr. Possibly more if you experience excessive leading.
And as for the crimp... barely touch it. The cartridge headspaces in the chamber on the edge of the case mouth, so you need to see the case mouth when viewing an assembled cartridge from above. Just remove the bell that makes it possible to seat the bullet without shaving lead during the seating stroke. That's it.
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The recipe only had jacketed. When I did my research, there didn't seem to be any conclusive explanation which to use, so I started with the low end of jacketed. Some said the double struck were fine to use, others said use the lead loadings.
If I should drop the load, then I'll probably try to pull the bullets to make it consistent. Ugh. Hate going backwards.
Oh well, "Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted."
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I just ran down and grabbed my old Hercules Guide.
200 gr lead target load max 4.3 at 805fps only 9,900 CUP
200 gr JHP max 5.6 at 910 with 16,000 CUP
I think I would drop that load a little for better accuracy but I run my 230 Berrys at 910 and 16,200 CUP with a full load of Reddot with no damage to the plating on the recovered bullets.
jim
jim
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Don't you have to avoid over-crimping semi-auto cartridges, because they headspace on the cartridge mouth?
Revolvers are so much simpler =)
That's the theory. Imnsho, the 1911 will headspace by the extractor holding the rim, most of the time.
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"They mostly headspace on the extractor with a 1911. Mostly."
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"They mostly headspace on the extractor with a 1911. Mostly."
Okay, that was a good one. :laugh:
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Thanks for the help guys. I changed my process so that my target load 5.7grains is locked onto the scale. I check each pull of the LPPM and will add or remove a few flakes at a time until I get a perfect 5.7 grain mass. It is slow and tedious, but I am confident of a near perfect mass load.
A powder trickler is what you want for that.
Min OAL is 1.175", per the recipe. With the bullet seat die adjusted, I am producing 1.180" (+/-0.001"), per digital calipers. Any more good advice on seating, before I get a big batch done?
.45 is pretty forgiving. Don't seat so high, that the bullet bites the rifling. If you do you will be disassembling those.
I've completed about 28 rounds. I got about 500 more to go. Should I go test fire the 28 before finishing the rest of the brass?
Absolutely test them before you go into mass production. My practice with a new bullet or powder is to make small samples (a magazine full, perhaps) through the published range. Then try them, to see if there's a "sweet spot" that seems to work well.
By way of example as to why I do that, my first batch of 50 .380, I did at the bottom of the published range. This was about 15 years ago, when I was just starting. They were so weak that my Makarov wouldn't cycle.
Does 45 need a tight crimp? No crimp?
Enough crimp that the bullet doesn't move under finger pressure or get setback from normal feeding. You should be able to do this with the seater die. Lee makes a taper crimp die that's dirt cheap, and their "Factory Crimp Die" isn't much more.
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Aaaand the factory crimp die is da bomb. Saved a bunch of bulge-y 9mm I baked up on my XL650. The only Dillon dies I own, and it took a Lee die to make it all good. Weird, huh?
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What I didn't realize at the time is that these recipes for green dot don't give much room for error. For these 200gr bullets, the starting load is 5.8grain, the do not exceed is 5.9. :O
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Double struck plated, Berry's bullets. 200gr, hollow point.
Oops.
I respectfully submit that you do not have a recipe for "these" bullets. In fact, I know that you cannot, because I load Berry's plated bullets and I know for a fact that Berry's does not publish load data for their bullets, and none of the powder companies publish load data for Berry's bullets.
So what bullets ARE the load data you are using intended for?
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Just an aside, but I've run the Berry's Preferred Plated 158gr FP bullets out of my Mk I Desert Eagle at over 1600fps with no problems.
(I can't run naked cast boolits in that gun, it'll foul the gas port something fierce)
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I start in lead bullet range on berry's, often end up in mid-range jacketed territory. I loaded 19K of them when 9mm were $29/1K. Thought that looked like a Berry's box. Easy on the crimp, again, case tension holds the bullet and you will crush it down and lose case tension if you crimp too much.
The plated bullets, for lack of more sciencey explanation, seem to drive down the bore easier. Lighter loads I'll often see sooted cases where there was not enough initial pressure spike to obturate the case to the chamber.
Glocks and Berry's are weird, I shot the heckout of 115s and accuracy was really good. Built some 147 loads and they went through the target sideways. Shot excellent in a cut rifled gun. Ican only assume that the soft lead bullet was kinda oozing down the hex bore and not really getting the bite to spin properly.
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I start in lead bullet range on berry's, often end up in mid-range jacketed territory.
I load Berry's 230-grain plated lead round-nose in .45 Auto. I called Berry's to ask for load data, and they said they don't have any (which is how I know for a fact that they don't have any). They said to use mid-range data for jacketed bullets. So I did that -- and my trial loads were running about 150 feet-per-second slower than the load data suggested they should be running. I am now at 0.1 grains OVER the suggested maximum on the Hodgdon/Winchester web site, and my velocity is barely what it should be with their minimum charge.
Bottom line: If you're not using the same exact bullet, powder, case and primer that's used for the load data -- you are NOT following the "recipe" and should not expect the same results. Proceed with caution.
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I don't know what I am talking about. The owners manual that came with the kit said that the crimp is adjustable on the die, and gives instruction how to adjust it.
.45 acp, taper crimp. I think the previous posters have explained it pretty well.
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Get your technique down to where you are throwing +/- 0.1 grains most of the time, occasionally .2, and you will probably find lower standard deviations than weighing each charge and getting it exact. And it's faster. It's just the nature of large flake powders like Green Dot.
Ideal starting point when adjusting a crimp die: Take a resized (and not expanded) case and run it up in the press. Screw the crimp die down until it is snug against the case mouth and lock it down with the lock ring.
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I disassembled those 5.7grain loads, and reloaded with 5.0grain. I assembled 14 rounds (1 mag). I went and fired that mag full at the range this morning. I then fired a mag of factory load FMJ 230grain. Both mags were fired from ~15yds.
Both mags fed and ejected perfectly. No split cases or bulging that I can tell. The brass seems to be thrown the same distance. As far as I could tell, the recoil was the same.
The 200grain plated hollow points seem to impact higher than the 230grain FMJ factory by ~3". I seem to have better group with the factory, but it wasn't a well controlled experiment. I was trying to fire the reloads fast to catch a cycling failure mode.
Any other kind of test or inspection I should complete before reloading the ~500 brass I got?
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The 200grain plated hollow points seem to impact higher than the 230grain FMJ factory by ~3".
Weird - light loads usually hit low from a handgun.
Your loads must be a bit slower than the factory ammo.
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Weird - light loads usually hit low from a handgun.
Your loads must be a bit slower than the factory ammo.
Do you mean muzzle velocity is slower, or the burn rate is slower, or something else?
And why would any of that cause it to go high?
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Do you mean muzzle velocity is slower, or the burn rate is slower, or something else?
And why would any of that cause it to go high?
Sights on a handgun are regulated to account for recoil / muzzle flip which starts before the bullet leaves the barrel. The barrel is actually pointed down slightly relative to line of sight and is supposed to be right on as the bullet leaves the barrel.
The sooner the bullet leaves the barrel, the lower it will hit.
So a fast/light load will shoot low, and a heavy/slow load will hit high - opposite of what you expect from a long gun.
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Thanks for explaining.
So, you think it is shooting slow, more muzzle rise before exiting the barrel, and hitting high. That would suggest I should increase the powder.
Time to load another batch before it gets too dark to shoot.
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It would suggest that, but it doesn't always work that way :) When you increase the powder, the recoil increases and the muzzle flips more. OTOH, the bullet exits the barrel quicker. These 2 effects sort of cancel each other out. The variable that actually changes things the most is the bullet weight (mass, actually)
Your grip may also be changing with the recoil.
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There's really not enough barrel time, or dwell, in a handgun to create much of an effect for sight regulation.
The barrel's too short, and the bullet's acceleration is too quick. The bullet's long gone downrange before the gun comes up and back at you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-jzkDviIwo
You should still practice good follow-through, just like in golf, because you could anticipate recoil in the form of flinch otherwise.
Now, if you want to talk about barrel time horsing a gun around, shoot a 32"-34" big-bore black powder cartridge rifle.
A 535gr bullet departs at a leisurely 1200fps from my 32" Sharps. Between the slow lock time and barrel dwell, if you don't follow-through on your shot after tickling the set trigger, you'll go wide.
You'll also feel pronounced torque along the longitudinal axis of the barrel, especially when shooting from the bench.
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I'm With gewehr on this. With a approx 4" barrel the bullet averages -at least- 400+ fps through it, meaning it spends less than 1/1200th of a second in the barrel. To be 3" low at 15yds, that's 1/3rd of a degree, roughly, meaning if the sights relied on the muzzle rising, it would need to rise at least that much with a "normal load"--this would require an angular acceleration of 70,000 rad/s2. Given a reasonable gun mass of 1kg, and a rotational moment of inertia of 0.05 kgm2, that is a torque of 3500N-m, meaning a force (lever arm of most conservatively 5cm) of 70,000N, or about 16,000lbs of recoil force.
Given that a 45ACP has a chamber pressure of 21kpsi, the maximum recoil force it can exert is less than a quarter of that, meaning recoil-based sight indexing can't really happen to a degree greater than about 1/2" at 15yds, if that (the above calcs are conservative).
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Thanks for explaining.
So, you think it is shooting slow, more muzzle rise before exiting the barrel, and hitting high. That would suggest I should increase the powder.
Time to load another batch before it gets too dark to shoot.
Not necessarily. It just explains (according to what I was told a long time ago) the why of it.
Anyone ever tried one of those Laserlyte things ??? It fits in your muzzle and activates on the sound of your hammer/striker falling. I was going to order one but I reasoned that if the sights were regulated that far above the bore axis then it wouldn't work very well =|
Anyway it would prove the point one way or the other .... In general theory the bore axis should be slightly above the line of sight to account for bullet drop, but on the recoil theory the bore axis would be below line of sight.
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Dunno the math, but aim points at 50-75yds are wildly different in my 9mm depending on if shooting ball or whatever +P carry crap I have. 2ft square plate at 75 and I will be aiming under the plate with hot JHp and covering it up with the front sight for white box equivalent.
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I disassembled those 5.7grain loads, and reloaded with 5.0grain. I assembled 14 rounds (1 mag). I went and fired that mag full at the range this morning. I then fired a mag of factory load FMJ 230grain. Both mags were fired from ~15yds.
Both mags fed and ejected perfectly. No split cases or bulging that I can tell.
And I doubt that you will see that, with .45, and within the normal published range.
The brass seems to be thrown the same distance. As far as I could tell, the recoil was the same.
The 200grain plated hollow points seem to impact higher than the 230grain FMJ factory by ~3". I seem to have better group with the factory, but it wasn't a well controlled experiment. I was trying to fire the reloads fast to catch a cycling failure mode.
Any other kind of test or inspection I should complete before reloading the ~500 brass I got?
3" difference at 15 yards? Everything seemed well behaved. I'd call that good.
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I pushed it to 5.4 grains of powder. Ran a mag (14 rounds). Recoil felt light, again no feeding problems. The group came down and now centers on sight well. The group pattern is the same size as my factory 230 grain ammo, about a span.
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I pushed it to 5.4 grains of powder. Ran a mag (14 rounds). Recoil felt light, again no feeding problems. The group came down and now centers on sight well. The group pattern is the same size as my factory 230 grain ammo, about a span.
Yup. Your previous load was significantly slower than his new load or retail ball.
Good job!
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Just an aside, but I've run the Berry's Preferred Plated 158gr FP bullets out of my Mk I Desert Eagle at over 1600fps with no problems.
(I can't run naked cast boolits in that gun, it'll foul the gas port something fierce)
Question, G98:
Is the gas port in the barrel for your Desert Eagle drilled into the lands or the grooves?
Is there a standard method for drilling gas ports in barrels? I'm under the impression that AR/M14/Garand/FAL/AK/etc barrels are merely indexed in a vise, measured to distance, then drilled accordingly.
And with AR's having such a wide variety of twist rates available (12, 9, 8, 7, 7.7, 6.5, etc) I wonder if in some implementations the math comes out that the gas port gets drilled on a raised land of the rifling, while others the gas port is drilled into a groove. Does the rifling always begin at the same orientation in the chamber on every barrel, and get manipulated to plan for the gas port in a groove?
I'd expect more leading and fouling of the gas system if the gas port is drilled into a land than a groove, since the jacket or bearing surface is being cut by the lands during firing.
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Question, G98:
Is the gas port in the barrel for your Desert Eagle drilled into the lands or the grooves?
Is there a standard method for drilling gas ports in barrels? I'm under the impression that AR/M14/Garand/FAL/AK/etc barrels are merely indexed in a vise, measured to distance, then drilled accordingly.
And with AR's having such a wide variety of twist rates available (12, 9, 8, 7, 7.7, 6.5, etc) I wonder if in some implementations the math comes out that the gas port gets drilled on a raised land of the rifling, while others the gas port is drilled into a groove. Does the rifling always begin at the same orientation in the chamber on every barrel, and get manipulated to plan for the gas port in a groove?
I'd expect more leading and fouling of the gas system if the gas port is drilled into a land than a groove, since the jacket or bearing surface is being cut by the lands during firing.
I don't think it would actually matter, two reasons:
1. Given how much gas ports erode with firing, any deposition of -small- amounts of stuff is going to get eroded faster than the hard steel of the barrel
2. Yes, the ands cut into the jacket, but once engraved (which is right away as the bullet leaves the chamber), the surface contact on the land is the same or less than the jacket to groove contact...as its engraved early, rather than a continuous slip
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AZRH44, Neither.
The gas port for the Desert Eagle is seriously goofy. They even provide a gas port scraper tool for carbon fouling.
Israeli Military Industries decided to delay the gas peak, so they cut the port at the bottom of the chamber throat.
The gas tube is integral with the barrel, and runs forward to near the muzzle before turning down to the gas cylinder - also part of the barrel assembly.
That provides the delay before the gas piston mounted on the slide starts moving rearwards.
I've heard that some folks have success shooting gas-checked cast boolits, but owing to the gas port being right there in the throat during bullet jump, it would still make me hesitant.
I just stay with jacketed or plated when handloading for my .357 Magnum DE, especially since I run them over 1600fps.
This shows where the gas port is.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi105.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm216%2FEvilFrankDude%2FDesertEagleCutaway.jpg&hash=4512e86bddf67d455449a5934da30fae32e758ab)