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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Waitone on May 08, 2013, 07:55:48 PM

Title: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Waitone on May 08, 2013, 07:55:48 PM
I'm curious as to why our media are telling us domestic suppliers are maxed out yet I see nothing about foreign sources of ammo.  One would think a critical shortage of ammo in the US would result in increased supplies from foreign sources. 

Here is the first article I've seen about foreign sources of ammo.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/08/foreign-ammo-imports-doubled-in-early-2013-to-meet-exploding-u-s-demand/

Next question I'd like to see explored is just what is the size of the US ammo market.  I've seen numbers ranging from 3 billion to 10 billion rounds annually. 
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on May 08, 2013, 08:36:16 PM
Anyone know the output of the following?:

Armscorp
Fiocchi
Wolf (are Tula/Brown Bear/Silver Bear all part of Wolf?)
GGG
Prvi Partisan
Radway
PMC


Who else did I miss?

I'm guessing all of them together don't add up to the Federal/ATK megaconglomerate.  Wolf might account for a significant amount since steel core x39 stuff comes off their line in such high quantity, but aside from that, the rest is negligible.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Tallpine on May 08, 2013, 09:56:16 PM
I buy a lot of PMC - when I can get it.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: MechAg94 on May 08, 2013, 10:42:49 PM
It's in my closet!!  

Maybe it takes some time to produce and slow boat it over here.  Wideners still has ak ammo in stock the last few days.
http://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=18|830|852
Link didn't come out.  Look up 7.62X39.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Scout26 on May 08, 2013, 10:59:41 PM
Because all the Cold War warehouses are now empty.   The old Warsaw Pact was selling everything and anything they could in the 90's to get hard currency. 

It's all gone now, either shot up or stashed by the hoarders.

They called it "surplus" for a reason.  Once it was gone, prices started to rise as supply fell and new ammo had to be made.  Most domestic produced stuff was now cheaper then the imported stuff.   Overseas production was reduced to what they could and were selling.  (Not many companies production plan for panic buying and stay in business long.  Inventory = $$$$.)
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: AJ Dual on May 08, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Anecdotal reports from places like Israel and others indicate the American ammo run has screwed up things for most of the world as well. At least in terms of the commercial market.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/05/letter-from-pat-cascio-ammunition-shortage-in-israel.html

I'm sure with our confluence of open land for shooting/ranges/clubs, our relative wealth (despite recent years), and our RKBA, America is the 800 lb. gorilla in the world ammo market overall.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Perd Hapley on May 08, 2013, 11:22:58 PM
I'm sure with our confluence of open land for shooting/ranges/clubs, our relative wealth (despite recent years), and our RKBA, America is the 800 lb. gorilla in the world ammo market overall.

What a country!

(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdnleEbt.jpg&hash=4852d7710a16bc031ad93336a0618f2b57a5c0ca)
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Viking on May 09, 2013, 12:38:55 AM
Anyone know the output of the following?:

Armscorp
Fiocchi
Wolf (are Tula/Brown Bear/Silver Bear all part of Wolf?)
GGG
Prvi Partisan
Radway
PMC


Who else did I miss?

I'm guessing all of them together don't add up to the Federal/ATK megaconglomerate.  Wolf might account for a significant amount since steel core x39 stuff comes off their line in such high quantity, but aside from that, the rest is negligible.
Lapua. Norma.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Perd Hapley on May 09, 2013, 01:14:33 AM
Is Kynoch still around?

Aguila is Mexican, right?
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: HankB on May 09, 2013, 10:29:08 AM
I know that demand has skyrocketed, but when only a few people seem to be getting a few boxes of ammo each - almost invariably at inflated prices - I still have to wonder about the supply pipeline.

From the results being reported by unsuccessful would-be purchasers, the supply seems to be a trickle . . . it would be interesting if someone could publicize historical & current production numbers for the major ammo makers, and summarize - at least generally - where the ammo is going.

But of course, that sort of info is probably closely held for business reasons, so we have to trust the industry  spokesmen when they say they're making all they can.

(Now should I put on my tinfoil conspiracy hat?  [tinfoil]  )
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: roo_ster on May 09, 2013, 12:07:36 PM
What a country!

(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdnleEbt.jpg&hash=4852d7710a16bc031ad93336a0618f2b57a5c0ca)

What a sweater!
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: TechMan on May 09, 2013, 01:31:40 PM
What a country!

(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdnleEbt.jpg&hash=4852d7710a16bc031ad93336a0618f2b57a5c0ca)

Agree with Roo_ster.  What a sweater.  Talk about target fixation.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Scout26 on May 09, 2013, 01:37:26 PM
I know that demand has skyrocketed, but when only a few people seem to be getting a few boxes of ammo each - almost invariably at inflated prices - I still have to wonder about the supply pipeline.


It's not "a few people getting a few boxes".  It's everybody going and buying anything and (almost) everything that's on the shelves.

I know people that shoot maybe 100 rds of 7.62/5.56/.308/.30-06 and maybe 500 rds of .22LR per year who were buying 100's if not thousands of rounds shortly after Sandy Hook and the start of the panic.  Then kept buying every time they found it somewhere.   I know one guy that bought over 5,000 rds of 5.56 and doesn't own anything to shoot it out of.

Think about it.  How often did you buy ammo?   Once a week?  a month? or a year?  People who only bought once a year were (and some still are) buying every week.   I ran into a guy from my club at the local Wal-mart on Tuesday.  He was there to buy ammo as that's when the truck comes in.    He bought three boxes of various calibers.  (I bought none, as I was there for other stuff.)  He told me he goes there EVERY Tuesday morning to buy ammo when it arrives.  He's mostly a shotgun shooter, but all he's buying is rifle and pistol ammo.

Even though all the AWB and other bullscat bills are pretty much DRT, the hoarders have not finished building up their hoards.    However, I predict that prices will drop dramatically as the ACA (Obamacare) begins to be implemented and the economy gets worse.  Guys will be selling (from) their stashes to put food on the table.

Remember in years past, most people would only buy ammo either a week or so before a range trip (if not on their way there).  Not many folks really "stockpiled" ammo (well, competitive shooters and some shotgunners might for their "season"), but most people only keep a box or two maybe 100 rds of each caliber if even that.   Once SH happened those folks looked in their closets, said "Oh Crap!!" and went on a buying spree.  Which is why we're where we are.  
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: MechAg94 on May 09, 2013, 01:47:30 PM
I have at least started to see ammo sellers keep ammo in stock for a week or so (even at inflated prices).  It might point to softening of the hoarding syndrome.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: HankB on May 09, 2013, 01:58:25 PM
It's not "a few people getting a few boxes".  It's everybody going and buying anything and (almost) everything that's on the shelves.  . . .  I know one guy that bought over 5,000 rds of 5.56 and doesn't own anything to shoot it out of.
OK, the real hoarders cleaned out dealer stockpiles . . . fine. I believe that.

But most stores are now limiting quantities - and they're having trouble replenishing inventory, since they reportedly are not getting their normal shipments from the manufacturers. And what little is coming in, is coming in at inflated prices - dealer cost is higher than what they were selling the stuff for at retail just a few months ago. (Yeah, yeah, supply & demand. I get it.)

Again, not claiming there's a big conspiracy, but the situation DOES cause me to raise my eyebrows and go "Hmmmm . . . "

(In a couple of years, we'll probably see some sellers at gun shows trying - in vain - to break even on ammo they bought at inflated prices, just like we've seen the past few years.) But though the "regular" prices will come down from current highs, they probably WON'T come down to where they were before Sandy Hook; the "new normal" will be higher than mere inflation would suggest.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on May 09, 2013, 02:03:30 PM
When I bought my XDs yesterday, my LGS had .45acp in stock.  100rd WWB packs were $65, $30 for Speer Lawman 50rd packs, $25 for Blazer 50rd aluminum cased stuff.

I didn't buy any, despite having a new gun to test out.  Told the guy I'd let someone else buy it at that price, and I'd dip into my stash.

I'll be testing it out with some Fiocchi retail 230gr FMJ.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Gewehr98 on May 09, 2013, 03:43:06 PM
I can't say I'm a hoarder, of at least commercial ammunition.

However, it's hitting even us died-in-the-wool reloaders squarely in the solar plexus.

I sat at the reloading bench the other evening, with the intent of cranking out a few hundred .38 Spl. 148gr HBWC loads for my S&W 52 and Steel Challenge race revolver.

I got the Dillon SDB all set up, and then pondered whether I wanted to use those two little trays of small pistol primers for .38 Spl. or save them for something else. 

In years past, I would never have given that much consideration.  In years past, I could just go to the Ammo Box or Mountain of Geese and pick up another 1000 or so primers, no problem.

Bummer.

Scout is correct, surplus guns and ammo are exactly that - surplus.  That leaves Wolf and their their contemporary steel-cased ammo manufacturers as the pipeline, since surplus caches have dried up pending new finds.

That's why I didn't go full-tilt boogie on a 5.45x39 AK. I didn't lay in a personal stash of ammo, and all the ammo has to come from overseas.  There are no reloading components stateside, and it's not easily formed from other brass.

One little hitch in the git-along with respect to importation of 5.45x39, and the pipeline's shut off.  Zip.  Nada.  No mas.   =(


Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: mtnbkr on May 09, 2013, 03:57:19 PM
I've been shooting my 300wm and 50cal BP rifle more lately.

300wm: Can still get ammo at WalMart and I am generally done at the range after a single box.  Only being able to shoot a single box per trip makes the $30/box price tolerable. 

50cal BP: Lower rate of consumption and components haven't been affected yet.

I'm pretty well stocked with loaded ammo, but I'm trying to be frugal with what I do have that isn't as easily replaced.  I'm slowly adding to my stocks while I focus on the guns above.

Chris
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: roo_ster on May 09, 2013, 04:27:32 PM
Tangential Question:

What (if any) milsurp rifles, pistols, etc. are currently abundant and/or cheap?
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Gewehr98 on May 09, 2013, 04:44:32 PM
It appears that Moisin Nagants (aka, Noisy Magnets and Moose Nuggets in the Cruffler world) can be had by the crateload...  =D

Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Scout26 on May 09, 2013, 05:59:47 PM
Tangential Question:

What (if any) milsurp rifles, pistols, etc. are currently abundant and/or cheap?

Well,
Noisey Magants run about $130 each.
Mausers are $500 and up
Garands from CMP $525 and up
M1 carbines are auction only at CMP and they have no M1917 Enfields or M1903 Springfields (they might have some in the stores in AL and OH, but you have to go there and look.)
K31's and Swedish Mausers are rarer then hen's teeth.
SKS's, AK variants have all been bought up.
FAL's are $1000+
SMLE No4 MK1 will run you about $400-$500
I did see some French MAS-36's for under $400.

So to answer your question.  None.

It's been quite awhile since $39 Mosin-Nagants and $49 SKS's.  We won't see those prices ever again.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: lee n. field on May 09, 2013, 09:15:59 PM
Tangential Question:

What (if any) milsurp rifles, pistols, etc. are currently abundant and/or cheap?

Even before the madness, Mosins were the only great bargain.  Pistols -- I dunno.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Balog on May 09, 2013, 09:52:39 PM
Even before the madness, Mosins were the only great bargain.  Pistols -- I dunno.

I think the supply of cheap 7.62x25 pistols is over.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Scout26 on May 09, 2013, 11:15:31 PM
Yep, the salad days are long done.
Title: Re: So Where is all the Foreign Ammo
Post by: Sawdust on May 10, 2013, 10:58:57 AM
What I would really like to have is a nice Kentucky rifle to mount aboce the living room fireplace.

Sawdust