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Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Monkeyleg on June 07, 2013, 10:53:50 AM

Title: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: Monkeyleg on June 07, 2013, 10:53:50 AM
As the thread title says, I just can't believe that the news about the NSA monitoring everybody and every communication in the US isn't a topic yet.

If this doesn't grab the public's attention, I don't know what will. Yes, they were grabbing small packets of data, but I don't expect most folks to understand that.

What's more, this is getting huge media coverage, and outraged comments from liberals as well as conservatives and libertarians.

The downside is that it started in 2007, so even though it was expanded under Obama, he'll blame it on Bush.
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: RevDisk on June 07, 2013, 11:45:40 AM
Duplicate

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=39825.0

Quasi duplicate

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=39830.0
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: RocketMan on June 07, 2013, 12:47:37 PM
If it doesn't negatively affect American Idol, Survivor, Bridezillas, or Monday Night Football, no one will care.
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: Monkeyleg on June 07, 2013, 12:58:34 PM
Duplicate

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=39825.0

Quasi duplicate

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=39830.0

I checked those threads. They're about Verizon. This is all communications companies, and all Americans, not just Verizon subscribers.
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: RevDisk on June 07, 2013, 01:11:01 PM
I checked those threads. They're about Verizon. This is all communications companies, and all Americans, not just Verizon subscribers.

*shrug*

Some of us have known for quite a few years. Good furry luck doing anything. It's time to strike while the iron is hot, and fan the flames as much as humanly possible. Only hope is the POTUS throws NSA brass under the bus, and the NSA develops an institutional twitch when domestic spying of ordinary Americans is suggested. I significantly doubt it will happen.

I think everyone here knows I've mocked or harassed employees of pretty much every agency, and stolen a coffee mug from the CIA. NSA is filled with very smart, decent people. Each and every NSA employee I have met was polite, intelligent, competent and had decent common sense. That makes them the most dangerous intelligence agency in our entire arsenal. If they went "rogue" from our country's perspective, they would be the most dangerous. With respect, half of DHS can't find fire when handed a lit thermite grenade. The other half are overworked, underpaid to the point that they couldn't become an effective Gestapo if their lives depended on it. NSA has the money, the people and the intelligence to do just about anything. They have done some absolutely amazing things. If they turned on the country, which they may or may not have started doing, it is very very bad. A military coup would be less worrisome, in my opinion. 
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: Gewehr98 on June 07, 2013, 01:29:50 PM
Rev speaks true.

This is only the part that leaked. 

Remember that...   ;)
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: RevDisk on June 07, 2013, 01:45:35 PM
Rev speaks true.

This is only the part that leaked. 

Remember that...   ;)

More is leaking.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324299104578529112289298922.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324299104578529112289298922.html)

Credit card info too.


Now, the NSA is probably the most efficient foreign espionage and intelligence agency we have. They do an awesome job, and with no recognition. That capacity used against America is the worrisome part.
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: Monkeyleg on June 07, 2013, 04:34:14 PM
I've long suspected that American citizens were being spied upon much more than what the government has already acknowledged. The PRISM story is bigger than what I expected, though.

With all of these scandals swirling, if this were any president other than Obama, that president would be gone. I don't think that members of Congress will have the guts to call for the impeachment of the first black president. That's it. It's the only reason he was elected, and it's the only thing that will save him from impeachment.

Today Obama said "Nobody is listening to your phone calls". That sounds a lot like "you can keep your health insurance", "your taxes won't go up a single dime", "we did everything we could" (to help the ambassador and staff at Benghazi), and a slew of other lies.

Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: birdman on June 07, 2013, 04:44:11 PM
Looking at the articles, its not bugging.

Its phone record data (which isn't private anyway) and the metadata for emails and such, which no-one should treat as private anyway (and the TOS says its not) when using a google or yahoo service.

I almost think its a classic "people should no better than to expect privacy on something when they are explicitly told its not private"
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: freakazoid on June 08, 2013, 12:43:14 AM
and stolen a coffee mug from the CIA.

Sounds like an interesting story. [popcorn]
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 08, 2013, 02:37:58 AM
Looking at the articles, its not bugging.

Its phone record data (which isn't private anyway) and the metadata for emails and such, which no-one should treat as private anyway (and the TOS says its not) when using a google or yahoo service.

I almost think its a classic "people should no better than to expect privacy on something when they are explicitly told its not private"

It's technically also true that when you're in public, people can see you, but if the police detailed an officer to follow you everywhere, you'd probably argue that you're being harassed or spied upon.

If it suddenly becomes affordable tomorrow, through an improvement in robot technology, for the police to detail a robot to follow every citizen in public, that will be spying, even though technically your movements are not private.

There is very good reason people like Revdisk are opposed to these developments.
Title: Re: Re: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on June 08, 2013, 07:22:56 AM
It's technically also true that when you're in public, people can see you, but if the police detailed an officer to follow you everywhere, you'd probably argue that you're being harassed or spied upon.

If it suddenly becomes affordable tomorrow, through an improvement in robot technology, for the police to detail a robot to follow every citizen in public, that will be spying, even though technically your movements are not private.

There is very good reason people like Revdisk are opposed to these developments.
Courts have ruled on following. In public

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: roo_ster on June 08, 2013, 10:02:29 AM
MB & CSD:

The better analogy is gov't slapping a combo GPS+microphone directly on one's person without one's permission.
Title: Re: Re: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 08, 2013, 10:30:43 AM
Courts have ruled on following. In public

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

Yes. I stated outright it is technically legal in the United States.

And your point is?

Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: birdman on June 08, 2013, 10:51:26 AM
There is very good reason people like Revdisk are opposed to these developments.

And a very good reason people like me (unlike rev, no offense intended,i dont flaunt what i do or my experience, as he can since he isn't involved any more in the various communities) who are opposed BUT see the outrage as misplaced in how it is shown--the outrage should be directed at the reason for it, and the permissive nature of low-information people, NOT by the method.  People voted these folks in, and haven't paid attention, and are now surprised.

Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: Monkeyleg on June 08, 2013, 10:55:38 AM
Looking at the articles, its not bugging.

Its phone record data (which isn't private anyway) and the metadata for emails and such, which no-one should treat as private anyway (and the TOS says its not) when using a google or yahoo service.

I almost think its a classic "people should no better than to expect privacy on something when they are explicitly told its not private"

No, it's not bugging in the specific sense. I was using "bugging" as a catch-all for surveillance.

To anyone's knowledge, has the government ever collected data on citizens on such a massive scale? My guess would be no, but I could be wrong. Even if I am wrong, the fact that the media is reporting this makes the story even more significant.
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 08, 2013, 11:01:48 AM
And a very good reason people like me (unlike rev, no offense intended,i dont flaunt what i do or my experience, as he can since he isn't involved any more in the various communities) who are opposed BUT see the outrage as misplaced in how it is shown--the outrage should be directed at the reason for it, and the permissive nature of low-information people, NOT by the method.  People voted these folks in, and haven't paid attention, and are now surprised.




You flaunt what you do all the time.  As is your right.

But more to the point: it is totally legitimate for people to oppose it as an invasion of privacy, even if legally it is not such. It is wholly legitimate for people to demand a legal limit for these activities, just as people in some countries have legal limits on police following people.
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: roo_ster on June 08, 2013, 11:10:51 AM
And a very good reason people like me (unlike rev, no offense intended,i dont flaunt what i do or my experience, as he can since he isn't involved any more in the various communities) who are opposed BUT see the outrage as misplaced in how it is shown--the outrage should be directed at the reason for it, and the permissive nature of low-information people, NOT by the method.  People voted these folks in, and haven't paid attention, and are now surprised.

While those who voted for BHO earned their share of vilification, those executing the taps & collections are also deserving.  There are three branches of gov't.  For something like this to occur and become policy, those in all three must betray their oaths to uphold the COTUS.  

But the thing is, BHO doesn't deserve all the blame.  GWB & his contemporaneous Congresses started the ball rolling.  So, by your formulation, the only part of the electorate not subject to your outrage is the slim numbers who voted third party from 2000 onwards?


Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: Tallpine on June 08, 2013, 11:17:17 AM
Quote
BHO doesn't deserve all the blame

If anything he deserves more blame as he ran on a platform of changing the hated GWB warmongering and civil liberty abuses.

But BHO is even worse it seems.


(if y'all remember ... I was one of those "Bush haters" y'all derided for daring to criticize a Republican   :P  )
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: birdman on June 08, 2013, 11:19:34 AM

You flaunt what you do all the time.  As is your right.


I flaunt -some- things.  ;)
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: Monkeyleg on June 08, 2013, 11:27:52 AM
Quote
I flaunt -some- things. 

Well just don't do it in public. This is a family forum. ;)
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: RevDisk on June 08, 2013, 01:48:12 PM
And a very good reason people like me (unlike rev, no offense intended,i dont flaunt what i do or my experience, as he can since he isn't involved any more in the various communities) who are opposed BUT see the outrage as misplaced in how it is shown--the outrage should be directed at the reason for it, and the permissive nature of low-information people, NOT by the method.  People voted these folks in, and haven't paid attention, and are now surprised.

I am very happy to burn some bridges.   ;)

But we both know I also have kept my mouth shut on anything that has not made the papers or whatnot. A lot of stuff.
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: birdman on June 08, 2013, 02:53:29 PM
I am very happy to burn some bridges.   ;)

But we both know I also have kept my mouth shut on anything that has not made the papers or whatnot. A lot of stuff.

I know :)
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: slingshot on June 08, 2013, 07:49:13 PM
I think this is a HUGE personal liberty issue and it seems it is broadening in scope all the time as more information comes out.  I have resisted posting a thread on the topic because it will be monitored.
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: roo_ster on June 09, 2013, 03:38:46 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance?guni=Network%20front:network-front%20full-width-1%20bento-box:Bento%20box:Position1
Quote
Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

The 29-year-old source behind the biggest intelligence leak in the NSA's history explains his motives, his uncertain future and why he never intended on hiding in the shadows

The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.

Do tell.
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: roo_ster on June 09, 2013, 03:48:08 PM
Got it from this link:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/edward-snowden-sauron-nsa/

Quote
Then watch Feinstein embarrass herself defending Clapper. “Well, I, I, this is very hard. There is no more direct or honest person than Jim Clapper, and I think Mike and I know that. You can misunderstand the question. Th, this” — et cetera.

Clapper pretty clearly lied. Maybe he lied because he felt Sen. Ron Wyden, who questioned him, had no right to an honest answer. That is, maybe he lied because, rightly or wrongly, he felt justified in deceiving the Senate in a public hearing, for national security reasons. But it is not credible to claim that the top spy in America didn’t understand a straightforward question by Sen. Wyden, or didn’t know what he was saying. The way Sen. Feinstein squirmed and got all shifty and mushmouthed undermines one’s confidence in the government. As George Will said later on the program, we really do live in a world in which the terroristic threat to America lives in the shadows, and our security agencies have to deal with that. That said (Will continued), we also live in a world in which the government has just been discovered using its tax agency to harass people for political reasons. Why is it reasonable to trust that the people who run this government would handle this massive data grab responsibly?
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: charby on June 20, 2013, 04:46:45 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/983982_10151997995359488_1678829793_n.jpg)
Title: Re: I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet
Post by: TommyGunn on June 20, 2013, 07:48:49 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/983982_10151997995359488_1678829793_n.jpg)


RUN OBama, RUN! :rofl: