Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: just Warren on June 09, 2013, 03:21:37 PM
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http://news.yahoo.com/nicaragua-canal-fast-tracked-chinese-boost-173611883.html
I'm all for increased trade of course but with these two involved I can foresee some shenanigans.
Wiki provides the basics of the history of various canal proposals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_Canal
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I believe, IIRC, a lot of years ago there was talk of building a sea level canal across one of those Banana Republics.
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I believe, IIRC, a lot of years ago there was talk of building a sea level canal across one of those Banana Republics.
A man, a plan, a canal - Panama!
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If I remember correctly, Nicaragua already had a competing canal that took advantage of Lake Nicaragua. Vanderbilt built it and then, Nicaragua, being Nicaragua, collapsed, accepted bribes, and basically destroyed their chance to be a commercial center.
Maybe it will go better this time.
(Please note, I simplified the episode for brevity's sake)
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I believe, IIRC, a lot of years ago there was talk of building a sea level canal across one of those Banana Republics.
Like, without locks?
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Destroying a transportation monopoly. Hmm. Interesting.
Might we see moar wars, police actions and international incidents down that way as a result of this?
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Like, without locks?
Perzactly!
A man, a plan, a canal - Panama!
Not sea level. Has locks on both ends! Been there! =D
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Perzactly!
Wow. Even with a relatively low country, that's a huge excavation.
I wonder what kind of flow the tides would cause.
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Wow. Even with a relatively low country, that's a huge excavation.
I wonder what kind of flow the tides would cause.
I don't know. The Suez is sea level and I don't believe that's a problem there, although the tides in the Mediterranean Sea and the Red Sea are probably a bit different than the Pacific and the Atlantic.
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Wouldn't the tides on both sides of an isthmus be on the same schedule ???
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IIRC, the reason for the locks is not tides, but that one ocean is somewhat higher than the other.
Edit: Correction, it had to do with how deep to cut into the rock across the isthmus. I'm guessing that cutting across Nicaragua at sea level will be quite the undertaking.
Panama Canal - 51 miles from deep water to deep water. Average toll $54,000, and ~15,000 vessels per year pass through, that's roughly $810 million per year.
Nicaragua - 130 miles, 11 years to build at a cost $40 Billion+ dollars. Presuming that it takes simply takes all the business from the Panama Canal and charges the same price, (it won't, but it will allow larger ships, so to make the math simple) that is a 50 year ROI. Yes, the Chinese are known to take the long view.
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I wonder what the flora and fauna implications have been with the first Panama Canal. Tropical warm water species that have been separated for eons and evolved separately, are now able to prey upon one another or breed with one another again.
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IIRC, the reason for the locks is not tides, but that one ocean is somewhat higher than the other.
Edit: Correction, it had to do with how deep to cut into the rock across the isthmus. I'm guessing that cutting across Nicaragua at sea level will be quite the undertaking.
Panama Canal - 51 miles from deep water to deep water.
Nicaragua - 130 miles and $40 Billion+ dollars.
For the first time, det cord is not the solution =(
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Presuming that it takes simply takes all the business from the Panama Canal and charges the same price, (it won't, but it will allow larger ships, so to make the math simple) that is a 50 year ROI.
At this time, the Panama is constructing new locks which will allow for larger ships to transit.
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Wow. Even with a relatively low country, that's a huge excavation.
I wonder what kind of flow the tides would cause.
Something fierce, I suspect. Think of it as a straw with a funnel on each end and the tide as pouring a bit of water into each funnel. No big whoop at the outer tip fo the funnel. Something different at the straw.
Isn;t there video od such tidal forces on nordic fjords?
Also, seas at different levels on either coasts.
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I wonder what the flora and fauna implications have been with the first Panama Canal. Tropical warm water species that have been separated for eons and evolved separately, are now able to prey upon one another or breed with one another again.
Probably not much commingling of species due to the fact inland of the locks is all fresh water. :P
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Probably not much commingling of species due to the fact inland of the locks is all fresh water. :P
I did not know that. I thought the canal was a trench across the land and had no interface with any river systems.
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I did not know that. I thought the canal was a trench across the land and had no interface with any river systems.
Yep, river artificially dammed to include a lake as well.
I'd be interested to know just how much salinity the lake has now due to the ocean traffic.
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Yep, river artificially dammed to include a lake as well.
I'd be interested to know just how much salinity the lake has now due to the ocean traffic.
It is the other way around. Freshwater from the lake is used to fill the locks and then goes out to sea. Silly amounts of rainfall make that reasonable.
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I'd be interested to know just how much salinity the lake has now due to the ocean traffic.
http://www.pancanal.com/esp/plan/estudios/0121.pdf
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It is the other way around. Freshwater from the lake is used to fill the locks and then goes out to sea. Silly amounts of rainfall make that reasonable.
So it appears. I was interested enough to look up the information myself:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA378475
From the paper, there is minimal salt intrusion to the lake, estimated at .03 parts per trillion; well below acceptable drinking water level at .25 parts per trillion. (For comparison, the Pacific is 35 parts per trillion and the ocean water directly outside of the locks is 10 parts per trillion.)
It seems they knew what they were doing 100 years ago.
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http://www.pancanal.com/esp/plan/estudios/0121.pdf
The copy I linked is a better scan. :P
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I did not know that. I thought the canal was a trench across the land and had no interface with any river systems.
Locks don't generally need pumps.
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They could use a lot less fresh water, if they used an air-inflatable "bed" under the lock.
Deflate the bed.
Put the ship in position in the lock.
Close the entry doors.
Inflate the bed, which raises the water level to be even with the upper doors.
Open the upper doors. You get salt/fresh water comingling, but not that big of a deal since there's going to be natural downhill flow at the locks anyways.
Take a hell of an air compressor to do that every day for dozens of transits, but it would use less water.
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Water's free. Comes from sky.
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The new locks are different. Use a tank/reservoir in order to
use same water rather than depleting lake.curse you discovery channel
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Yep, river artificially dammed to include a lake as well.
I'd be interested to know just how much salinity the lake has now due to the ocean traffic.
In fact, a majority of the transit is accomplished on said Gatun Lake.
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Water's free. Comes from sky.
Flows downhill :cool:
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The new locks are different. Use a tank/reservoir in order to
use same water rather than depleting lake.curse you discovery channel
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In addition, they are raising the lake level 1.5 feet. That's a lot of water!
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Lake Nicaragua is 107ft above sea level, so highly doubtful they'll have a lock free canal.
But they solved the piracy problem. ;)
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Destroying a transportation monopoly. Hmm. Interesting.
Might we see moar wars, police actions and international incidents down that way as a result of this?
I hope the hell not. I've aquired a taste for Nicarauguan handmade cigars and any threats to my supply is going to irritate me.
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Actually it may drive down the cost of shipping. Competition is always a good thing.
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Actually it may drive down the cost of shipping. Competition is always a good thing.
Leave it to an APS'er to look at the financial benefits! =D
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Actually it may drive down the cost of shipping. Competition is always a good thing.
Of course, us consumers think that.
The canal is currently at 100% capacity to my understanding, but Panama probably greatly enjoys that 100% capacity and the fact that there's no competition to drive down the X cost per ship-ton they charge to send a ship through the canal.
Panama would still remain the preferred canal since it's shorter and would have fewer locks, but if it costs half as much to go through Nicaragua and takes another 12-18 hours above whatever it takes to go through Panama... I can't help but think it would suck away at least some of the Panama traffic and also drive down rates for traversing.
And if they somehow increase the size of ships able to traverse (i.e. "Panamax" is smaller than "Nicamax") then Nicaragua would become the dominant choice as new ships are produced to fit the new locks.
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And if they somehow increase the size of ships able to traverse (i.e. "Panamax" is smaller than "Nicamax") then Nicaragua would become the dominant choice as new ships are produced to fit the new locks.
The new locks on the Panama canal will handle larger than "Panamax" ships.
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http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/4212183
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Panamax and Nicamax sound like low budget cable pron channels.
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Water's free. Comes from sky.
Especially in panama.