Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Angel Eyes on June 11, 2013, 07:44:41 PM
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At issue is their sale of magazine parts kits (i.e., disassembled magazines) to California customers:
http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/High-capacity-ammo-repair-kit-lawsuit-4592551.php
These businesses "think they've devised a clever end-run around California law by selling fully functional high-capacity magazines that have simply been disassembled into a few easily reassembled parts," Herrera said in a statement. "Our litigation intends to prove otherwise."
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While Herrera's office says current law prohibits the repair kit sales, ...
Interestingly, a letter from the Cali DOJ seems to indicate that the sale of magazine parts is legal:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf
Someone on Calguns wondered if this litigation might run afoul of the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act:
(5) Businesses in the United States that are engaged in interstate and foreign commerce through the lawful design, manufacture, marketing, distribution, importation, or sale to the public of firearms or ammunition products that have been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce are not, and should not, be liable for the harm caused by those who criminally or unlawfully misuse firearm products or ammunition products that function as designed and intended.
Anyone on here who sells such kits might want to watch this.
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The repair kits were a risky proposition from the beginning - selling a pack of parts that can be instantly assembled into an illegal item is never going to last.
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The repair kits were a risky proposition from the beginning - selling a pack of parts that can be instantly assembled into an illegal item is never going to last.
I've never gotten why people get so upset when these things get shut down. This is not the only example.
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I've never gotten why people get so upset when these things get shut down. This is not the only example.
Well, I'd imagine that some people are upset because they wanted the mags, and the mouth breathing mob banded together to deny them for no good reason.
But yeah, you had to see this coming. If not this then a law disallowing repair kits.
The repair kits were a risky proposition from the beginning - selling a pack of parts that can be instantly assembled into an illegal item is never going to last.
Yeah but it's a stupid law, so any way around it should be used while it's open.
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Dogmush, the problem is that the kits aren't a way around the law - it's a fairly serious crime to manufacture an illegal magazine there. It's likely a few "make an example" prosecutions will come along to match the lawsuit now.
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But yeah, you had to see this coming. If not this then a law disallowing repair kits.
I'd love to read the language of that law. Especially with the whole 3D printing revolution.
What will they prohibit? Springs? Better yet, a plastic mandrel and wire? I mean, its a box, a follower, and a spring.
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I'd love to read the language of that law. Especially with the whole 3D printing revolution.
What will they prohibit? Springs? Better yet, a plastic mandrel and wire? I mean, its a box, a follower, and a spring.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=32001-33000&file=32310-32390 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=32001-33000&file=32310-32390)
32310. Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section
32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section
17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, commencing January 1, 2000, any
person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured,
imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for
sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine is
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or
imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.
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I know that the people that used the repair kits in a manner inconsistant with their labeling committed a crime, though i would quibble with the "serious" label. That is, however, on them. why should the resellers give a damn about CA's idiocy.
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There's something seriously wrong with a legal system that allows a state to file charges against someone who may have never set foot in that state . . .
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The point of this isn't to stop them from coming into California.
The point is to determine what part of a magazine is a "magazine" and what parts are "parts." Much like an AR lower receiver versus its various parts. Once the actual part that is a "magazine" wears out, the magazine can then no longer be repaired.
This will then have national-level implications to the gun control argument.
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The point of this isn't to stop them from coming into California.
The point is to determine what part of a magazine is a "magazine" and what parts are "parts." Much like an AR lower receiver versus its various parts.
The serial numbered part of course....oh...wait.
Which reminds me, I had a convo with a friend in MA yesterday and he said he was glad to have several "pre-ban" mags for his AR. I asked how he knew for sure (other than the fact they are not pmags). He said he didn't, my response was "and now you know why the law sucks"
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If they ban kits then you'll just end up with one company selling the body, and one company selling the internal stuff. With tables right next to each other at gun shows. >:D
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The serial numbered part of course....oh...wait.
Which reminds me, I had a convo with a friend in MA yesterday and he said he was glad to have several "pre-ban" mags for his AR. I asked how he knew for sure (other than the fact they are not pmags). He said he didn't, my response was "and now you know why the law sucks"
If the magzine is a make/model/type/style that was available pre-ban, and there's no date on it, the state can't prove it's NOT pre-ban.
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If the magzine is a make/model/type/style that was available pre-ban, and there's no date on it, the state can't prove it's NOT pre-ban.
But as we will see, they can arrest you on it, even if the burden of proof is on them, the damage and "deterrent" is done.
The problem with laws like this, that we call "unenforceable" isn't that they aren't unenforceable (as arrest is can still happen under suspicion of a crime), but rather "not prosecutable". And that is what "they" want--even if the cases get tossed, the initial arrest/suspicion/law enforcement can still happen, and is a deterrent to the law abiding due to its inherent risks/costs.
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But as we will see, they can arrest you on it, even if the burden of proof is on them, the damage and "deterrent" is done.
The problem with laws like this, that we call "unenforceable" isn't that they aren't unenforceable (as arrest is can still happen under suspicion of a crime), but rather "not prosecutable". And that is what "they" want--even if the cases get tossed, the initial arrest/suspicion/law enforcement can still happen, and is a deterrent to the law abiding due to its inherent risks/costs.
<insert Aynn Rand quote here>
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But as we will see, they can arrest you on it, even if the burden of proof is on them, the damage and "deterrent" is done.
The problem with laws like this, that we call "unenforceable" isn't that they aren't unenforceable (as arrest is can still happen under suspicion of a crime), but rather "not prosecutable". And that is what "they" want--even if the cases get tossed, the initial arrest/suspicion/law enforcement can still happen, and is a deterrent to the law abiding due to its inherent risks/costs.
If the local constabulary is fundamentally corrupt, if they trump-up charges JUST to harass people they don't approve of ("you may beat the rap but you won't beat the ride"), then debating what the law says is nothing more than meaningless chatter.
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If the local constabulary is fundamentally corrupt, if they trump-up charges JUST to harass people they don't approve of ("you may beat the rap but you won't beat the ride"), then debating what the law says is nothing more than meaningless chatter.
But...but...but... most cops are GOOD! They're just enforcing the law! It's not their fault! <insert excuse here> :rofl:
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I was surprised that magazine sellers were shipping all the parts together. I would have thought shipping them separately would at least make it easier to state with a straight face that you didn't send HiCap mags to California.
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I was surprised that magazine sellers were shipping all the parts together. I would have thought shipping them separately would at least make it easier to state with a straight face that you didn't send HiCap mags to California.
I'm not sure they care. According to the law that DeSelby posted it's not illegal to ship mags into CA. The law starts with "Any person in this state who......"
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If the AG replies in the affirmative to the question "Can you assemble all the parts of a single hi-cap magazine at once, provided they are unassembled?", then how are the retailers at fault? The San Francisco prosecutor would have to establish intent, would he not?
Ayn Rand was right. We've reached a point where every citizen is breaking laws every day, whether he knows it or not. I realized the other day when I saw a squad car in my rear view mirror that I always get a knot in my stomach when I see a cop car, even though I'm not doing anything wrong.
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So if you own a hi-cap magazine(is that possible still?) how do you legitimately repair it? IIRC the definitive part of a mag under the '94 BS was the base plate and you could order a body as a repair part. Can you still by springs alone or has Cali outlawed potential energy too?
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So if you own a hi-cap magazine(is that possible still?) how do you legitimately repair it? IIRC the definitive part of a mag under the '94 BS was the base plate and you could order a body as a repair part. Can you still by springs alone or has Cali outlawed potential energy too?
The State of California has determined that potential energy is a carcinogen.
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The State of California has determined that potential energy is a carcinogen.
Wow, what does that mean for the damns and reservoirs?
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If the magzine is a make/model/type/style that was available pre-ban, and there's no date on it, the state can't prove it's NOT pre-ban.
They can if they have your Internet order form to relate the magazine to, courtesy of a subpoena to an online retailer.
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They can if they have your Internet order form to relate the magazine to, courtesy of a subpoena to an online retailer.
Assuming we're still talking about parts kits, proof of the order is not enough. The state would have to prove that the purchaser assembled the parts into a new "high capacity" magazine. This has been discussed ad nauseum on Calguns, with input from California attorneys. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=387409)
The real intent of this litigation is to scare out-of-state businesses into not selling parts for "hi-cap" mags to Californians. Since the lawsuit was filed, Cope's and Palmetto State Armory have stopped doing so. California has done this before: years ago they sent threatening letters to out-of-state businesses (including Fulton Armory) threatening them with legal action if they sold AR lowers to Californians even though it was (and is) perfectly legal to do so. What they can't get through legislation they will attempt to get by litigation and intimidation.
(BTW, Exile Machine has set up a donation page for their legal defense: https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/pages/contribute-to-our-legal-defense-39.html)
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Assuming we're still talking about parts kits, proof of the order is not enough. The state would have to prove that the purchaser assembled the parts into a new "high capacity" magazine. This has been discussed ad nauseum on Calguns, with input from California attorneys. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=387409)
The real intent of this litigation is to scare out-of-state businesses into not selling parts for "hi-cap" mags to Californians. Since the lawsuit was filed, Cope's and Palmetto State Armory have stopped doing so. California has done this before: years ago they sent threatening letters to out-of-state businesses (including Fulton Armory) threatening them with legal action if they sold AR lowers to Californians even though it was (and is) perfectly legal to do so. What they can't get through legislation they will attempt to get by litigation and intimidation.
(BTW, Exile Machine has set up a donation page for their legal defense: https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/pages/contribute-to-our-legal-defense-39.html)
Yeah, not so sure about relying on a forum to avoid prosecution there - if you think having a purchase order for identical parts to those in a suspect magazine isn't going to fly, great, but you need to remember that they can put that to a jury to get the answer.
As always with these threads, I would strongly suggest contacting an attorney to scope your individual circumstances if anything on this thread remotely describes your CA based activities.
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If people put half the energy into fixing bad laws that they do in skirting them...
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If people put half the energy into fixing bad laws that they do in skirting them...
Exactly - it's harder to engage in politics with a criminal record as well.
This is not like the off list lower thing
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What exactly are you talking about? My understanding is that groups like Calguns have done quite a bit with what they have.
From all I can tell, there have always been gun owners who liked to find ways to do a tightrope on the legal line without crossing it and that hasn't changed.
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Exactly - it's harder to engage in politics with a criminal record as well.
Know much about US-ian politics?
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What exactly are you talking about? My understanding is that groups like Calguns have done quite a bit with what they have.
From all I can tell, there have always been gun owners who liked to find ways to do a tightrope on the legal line without crossing it and that hasn't changed.
Yeah, if calguns are telling people they can import complete magazines and assemble them in a way that nobody can prove the crime, they've got a way to go. Possibly (being CA based) some time to serve as we'll, but that's up to the courts.
Lee, I'm American.
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Ii is not a crime to be in posssion of standard capacity magazines in the state of California.
It is, however, illegal to import, manufacture, sell, trade, etc. these magazines.
The burden is on the State to prove that an individual engaged in an illegal act.
Again, possession is not illegal...neither is a closed mouth.
Sawdust
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If people put half the energy into fixing bad laws that they do in skirting them...
It doesn't take much effort to click "Buy Now".
Yeah, if calguns are telling people they can import complete magazines and assemble them in a way that nobody can prove the crime, they've got a way to go.
Calguns isn't telling people to assemble illegal magazines.
But CA does have a way to go.
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Yeah, if calguns are telling people they can import complete magazines
Which, of course, they're not.
If people put half the energy into fixing bad laws that they do in skirting them...
If you're serious about fixing bad laws, feel free to join or donate to the Calguns Foundation: http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
It's easy.