Armed Polite Society

Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: just Warren on June 29, 2013, 10:31:14 PM

Title: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: just Warren on June 29, 2013, 10:31:14 PM
http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/video?clipId=9037543&autostart=true

Imagine a country where you're pulled out of your vehicle and then STRAPPED to a gurney while a bunch of armed men hold you down and a have your blood drawn.

No warrant, no due process. They do get a warrant, sorry, didn't hear that the first time through.

It looks like someone being made ready for lethal injection.

In the past we would have laughed at that country. Today it's us.
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: BobR on June 29, 2013, 10:55:17 PM
Quote
while a bunch of armed men hold you down

I don't believe they are armed. Batons, cuffs, etc, but they don't appear to be armed, at least with a gun. Which is how I take "armed men".

Blow, consent to blood draw, or have a warrant. Do I have a problem with this, not really. I am very happy to see them restrained. As a nurse, I would refuse to draw their blood if they aren't 100% cooperative, or restrained. My safety margin against a needle stick is set pretty high. And yes, I have drawn blood on drunks in the past, but always with cooperation.

If the sheriff is following the law, then I guess someone needs to attempt to get the law changed, that is the way it usually works.

I actually have much more grief over LEOs running roadblock specifically targeting motorcyclists. With a drunk, there is at least a little bit of reasonable suspicion they are breaking the law.

bob
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: MillCreek on June 29, 2013, 11:25:10 PM
What an interesting topic.  Back in 1982, I got my nose broken by a suspected DUI upon whom I was doing a blood draw at Harborview.  It was a middle-aged guy in a suit who gave consent and everything.  As soon as I poked him with the Vacutainer, he said 'Ow!' and hauled off and punched me right in the nose.

It varies amongst healthcare providers whether they feel it is ethical to do a forced blood draw without consent based upon a court order.  Some will and some won't.

Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 29, 2013, 11:29:06 PM
Nooz? Texas has been at this *expletive deleted*it for a while.  Tell me again how much more free Texas is.....I punch you!
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: BobR on June 29, 2013, 11:31:17 PM
Texas not free!!! No open carry!!!!   :P   ;)   


bob
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 30, 2013, 07:27:19 AM
Texas not free!!! No open carry!!!!   :P   ;)   


bob


 :lol:

Don't forget that a CHL will cost you over $200 when you add it all together.  Yeah, that's awesome.  :facepalm:

I like it here, don't get me wrong.  But it's not the bastion of personal freedom that some pretend it is.  No refusals is a prime example. 
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: lee n. field on June 30, 2013, 08:50:36 AM

 :lol:

Don't forget that a CHL will cost you over $200 when you add it all together.  Yeah, that's awesome.  :facepalm:

$200?  Oh, if only!

Under the first and only ever passed in living memory CCW bill here, we're looking at $150 for the permit after 16 hours training.  I figure, for someone starting from nothing (half the coursework can be grandfathered from something else.  Maybe.  Depend on what's actually approved.), $400 - $500.
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on June 30, 2013, 11:36:57 AM
AZ is the same.

Interestingly, in AZ... if you have a CCW, you HAVE to consent to either breathylizer or blood draw on the side of the road if pulled over on suspicion (or else you lose your CCW).  But if you don't have a CCW, you can hold out for a warrant.

How's that for awesome?
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 30, 2013, 11:44:11 AM
What they do here in Texas is have a judge or magistrate handy.  No refusal weekends, they set up roadblocks and get warrants signed on the spot.  Nothing says police state like a roadblock and being forced to provide evidence that could be used to charge you with a crime....
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Ben on June 30, 2013, 11:52:30 AM
AZ is the same.

Interestingly, in AZ... if you have a CCW, you HAVE to consent to either breathylizer or blood draw on the side of the road if pulled over on suspicion (or else you lose your CCW).  But if you don't have a CCW, you can hold out for a warrant.

Probably one of the concessions made for the permit. When I got mine, I recall there were several things it lets you do that you can't with constitutional carry. Most of them were so minor that I can't remember them, but the one that I reckon most people would use a lot would be the ability to enter establishments with booze in them, so I could easily see a concession to the libs in the legislature for mandatory breathalyzer in exchange for carrying where there is alcohol.
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: agricola on June 30, 2013, 12:02:31 PM
That seems a daft law. 

Over here, refusal to blow is an offence (at the side of the road it will get you arrested, a refusal at the custody office gets you charged).  You can elect to have blood taken (instead of the answer that the machine comes up with), but only if the proportion indicated by the breathalyser is between 40 and 50 mg (the legal limit is 35, 35-39 is considered within the margin of error) and the sample is always taken by a doctor and never by force.   
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: HankB on June 30, 2013, 12:57:28 PM
I've no sympathy for drunk drivers, but I have even less sympathy for those who wish to perform an invasive medical procedure by force.  :mad:
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: BobR on June 30, 2013, 02:12:08 PM
What is the alternative, under current law, if they refuse to blow or have blood drawn? Lose their license for 1 year, big deal, I would wager most who refuse are familiar with the law, because they have been in the DUI boat before. In some cases, the loss of a DL for a year could be the less severe of possible punishments. I drew a guy 9 times in 2 years on the rez, a few days in the local lock-up, DL suspended, and he went on his merry way, to re-offend.

If you don't want to require blood or breath analysis, especially under duress (force), then insist the legislators give the laws some teeth. Make it significant if they refuse. Something that tips the bar in favor of compliance, rather than refusal.

Or we could adopt the Japanese model, 0.03% limit, even the passengers can be ticketed for riding with a drunk driver. The Japanese police have this "wand" they stick in the car, and if it goes off, you are essentially screwed. Enough people wearing cheap aftershave can set it off. If you refuse to have a blood draw in Japan, you can go to prison for 3 years and face a 4k+ fine.

Personally, I would not care if every drunk driver wrapped their car around a tree or tried to take out a bridge abutment at high speed. But they don't, it is often innocent bystanders, like the family heading home from an outing, who get whacked by the drunk (no stats kept, but appx 15K people killed per year in drunk driving accidents). A very good friend of mine spent 14 days in ICU, multiple years in recovery, and was grounded from flying when he was hit broadside by a drunk about 0400 one morning. He was on his way in to preflight and the drunk blew through a red light. His BAC was 0.28. He got to plead down to a lesser charge, rather than go to jail where he belonged.

So, for me personally, it they want to shove a trocar into a drunks liver to get blood, I am OK with that.

So, let's make refusal have consequences, enough that it is better to have a blood draw than to refuse.

But, IMO, that will never happen.

bob
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Tallpine on June 30, 2013, 02:19:23 PM
How about we just make more severe penalties for actually hurting someone  ???

Like automatic life in prison for causing a fatality accident while intoxicated, etc.

Five years for an injury accident and no DL for life.
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: roo_ster on June 30, 2013, 02:29:54 PM
I am very leery of punishing folks and violating their person before they have caused harm to another.  Heck, I am leery of any procedure for any reason that violates the integrity of a man's body even if they did injure another.  Too much like being forced to testify against yourself.
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 30, 2013, 03:20:47 PM


So, for me personally, it they want to shove a trocar into a drunks liver to get blood, I am OK with that.


bob

The problem with that line of thinking is that you are assuming guilt automatically.  We have this whole presumption of innocence thing, courts, etc.
Just sayin.
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: roo_ster on June 30, 2013, 03:47:49 PM
The problem with that line of thinking is that you are assuming guilt automatically.  We have this whole presumption of innocence thing, courts, etc.
Just sayin.

Stop with the crazy-talk.  You're scaring the straights.



Quote from: Radical Notion
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

And really, what is more personal than your bodily tissues?

Quote from: More radical notions
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: RaspberrySurprise on June 30, 2013, 04:38:12 PM
So if not by blood draw how would you have the police determine if a driver is intoxicated or not? Though the whole forced blood draw thing does seem to scream fifth amendment violation. I'd be curious to see how much oversight there is on the warrants issued for the draws and how much of a rubber stamp parade they are.
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: agricola on June 30, 2013, 04:57:31 PM
So if not by blood draw how would you have the police determine if a driver is intoxicated or not? Though the whole forced blood draw thing does seem to scream fifth amendment violation. I'd be curious to see how much oversight there is on the warrants issued for the draws and how much of a rubber stamp parade they are.

Again, over here the relevant bit of our legislation deals with this point by making the police officers opinion of no real weight - the officer either has to believe that a moving traffic violation has occured, or that there are reasonable grounds to suspect the driver has been drinking.  The actual evidence either way comes from the breathalyzer, which either proves that the driver isnt over the limit, or suggests that they are and the further test is done at the station after arrest. 
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 30, 2013, 05:10:03 PM
So if not by blood draw how would you have the police determine if a driver is intoxicated or not? Though the whole forced blood draw thing does seem to scream fifth amendment violation. I'd be curious to see how much oversight there is on the warrants issued for the draws and how much of a rubber stamp parade they are.

What offense has really been committed by driving intoxicated?  Until you hurt someone or damage property? 
Evidence collection is not my problem. It's the courts problem.  And I will always err on the side of personal liberty vs. the government or the courts when it comes to something like this.

FWIW, According to this site, DUI's account for 1/3 of traffic fatalities. 
http://www.centurycouncil.org/drunk-driving/drunk-driving-fatalities-national-statistics

By the way, you have just as much of a chance of being accidentally poisoned as you do killed in an MVA
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/acc-inj.htm
26,000 people fall to death each year, which is more than are killed in DUI accidents.

Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: agricola on June 30, 2013, 05:17:24 PM
26,000 people fall to death each year, which is more than are killed in DUI accidents.

there are laws about gravity, though







*gets coat*
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Tallpine on June 30, 2013, 06:22:57 PM
there are laws about gravity, though







*gets coat*

Newton was an Englishman.  >:D

I thought we fought a war to get rid of that stuff ?   :P
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: RaspberrySurprise on June 30, 2013, 07:52:20 PM
What offense has really been committed by driving intoxicated?  Until you hurt someone or damage property? 
Evidence collection is not my problem. It's the courts problem.  And I will always err on the side of personal liberty vs. the government or the courts when it comes to something like this.
I guess you could call it aggravated stupidity. We don't allow people to fire guns off into the air at random because you can't control or know where the bullets will land. Driving drunk is fairly similar, you can't tell where your car will end up or control it properly when drunk.

Again, over here the relevant bit of our legislation deals with this point by making the police officers opinion of no real weight - the officer either has to believe that a moving traffic violation has occured, or that there are reasonable grounds to suspect the driver has been drinking.  The actual evidence either way comes from the breathalyzer, which either proves that the driver isnt over the limit, or suggests that they are and the further test is done at the station after arrest. 
Can you physically force someone to take a breathalyzer?
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Tallpine on June 30, 2013, 08:24:10 PM
I just love how accidents are caused by drivers with 0.20++ bac so the solution is to lower the limit to 0.08 or lower  ;/
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: just Warren on June 30, 2013, 08:39:48 PM
It's the same logic that in an apartment I lived in someone was doing something to get the washers and dryers to work without putting money in them and the guy who owned the machines announced that he was going to raise the price.

Of course this would do nothing to address the problem as regardless of the price it's still free to the thief and it punishes the innocent. Brilliant. He relented when my wife told him that if he did raise the price it would then be worth it for her to drive the laundry a few blocks and use the laundromat. F'ing marginal utility, how does it work?   (Not that she was aware of the name of the concept).

As to this issue, there has been a long train of of abuses and usurpations in the rights of individuals in their persons and as potential entrepreneurs that have eliminated effective voluntary means of preventing intoxicated driving. One such abuse would be to so strangle inter-city transportation business models in mercantilistic regulations that choices are reduced and prices increased so that traveling by personal vehicle is preferable even if a person knows they will be drinking.
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: stevelyn on July 01, 2013, 12:07:52 AM
So if not by blood draw how would you have the police determine if a driver is intoxicated or not? Though the whole forced blood draw thing does seem to scream fifth amendment violation. I'd be curious to see how much oversight there is on the warrants issued for the draws and how much of a rubber stamp parade they are.

In AK you don't have to prove level of intoxication. You have to prove that the person's driving was impaired, which can be from any number of reasons. Also, 'Refusal" incurrs an additional charge and carries the same mandatory penalties.

IOW, I don't give a *expletive deleted*it whether you submit a breath sample or not. My case was already made with or without it. The only thing it cost me is an additional check-the-box complaint form reflecting the extra charge and an extra sentence or two on the affidavit.

We can only do a forced blood draw in the event the at-fault driver is involved in an injury or fatality MVA. There is no provision in law for an involuntary blood draw under any other circumstance. However, DUI suspects do have the option of an independent voluntary blood draw, if they wish to contest the results of the breath test instrument.

Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: agricola on July 01, 2013, 09:20:24 AM
Can you physically force someone to take a breathalyzer?

Nope, but refusal will always result in either arrest (at the roadside) or charge (at the station). 
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: cordex on July 01, 2013, 09:40:13 AM
Though the whole forced blood draw thing does seem to scream fifth amendment violation. I'd be curious to see how much oversight there is on the warrants issued for the draws and how much of a rubber stamp parade they are.
It seems pretty rubber-stampy, if only because it happens an awful lot so everyone has the procedure down.

BobR is right inasmuch as there is significant incentive to refuse tests and take the license suspension.  Drunks (and their lawyers) understand that it is often the best choice they have.  Cops and prosecutors know that drunks know that, so police start out the process collecting observations that can be used to either obtain the necessary warrants or bolster a DUI charge from the very beginning.  All part of the arms race.
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Tallpine on July 01, 2013, 09:48:06 AM
If there wasn't sufficient evidence of erratic driving to begin with, why are the cops stopping the person  ???
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Jamisjockey on July 01, 2013, 10:08:51 AM
If there wasn't sufficient evidence of erratic driving to begin with, why are the cops stopping the person  ???

Here in Texas they combine forced blood draws with roadblocks.  No suspicion needed, comrade! You are all suspects!
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Tallpine on July 01, 2013, 10:34:45 AM
Here in Texas they combine forced blood draws with roadblocks.  No suspicion needed, comrade! You are all suspects!

Why bother with all those messy trials and stuff?  While they have them strapped down on the table they could just go ahead and execute  :police:
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: tokugawa on July 01, 2013, 12:12:24 PM
The whole  drunk driving thing is way overblown. Just another excuse for the cop state.  Those laws stop drunks about as often as gun control stops criminals, and they both have the the same unconstitutional  assumption- that because someone MIGHT injure another, that pro active measures are warranted against all. If someone causes an accident, then charge them and try them.

 And they share another similarity as well, since they don't work to start with, the laws  keep getting more and more restrictive-if they keep it up ,soon your aftershave will push your blood alcohol content "over the limit".
 
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: MechAg94 on July 01, 2013, 03:01:11 PM
Here in Texas they combine forced blood draws with roadblocks.  No suspicion needed, comrade! You are all suspects!
Where are the road blocks you speak of?  I haven't seen that. 

I have heard of the blood draws with a warrant.  MADD has been pretty powerful in Texas for a while.  There probably is some push back against them, but not enough yet to force more reasonable laws. 
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: MechAg94 on July 01, 2013, 03:03:58 PM
Nooz? Texas has been at this *expletive deleted* for a while.  Tell me again how much more free Texas is.....I punch you!
Funny, I don't think I have ever heard anyone bragging that Texas is more free, certainly not in the last several years.  All I ever hear about it is out of staters complaining.   =D
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: SADShooter on July 01, 2013, 03:14:00 PM
Funny, I don't think I have ever heard anyone bragging that Texas is more free, certainly not in the last several years.  All I ever hear about it is out of staters complaining.   =D

At least we can actually buy firearms manufactured here... :lol:
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on July 01, 2013, 06:25:53 PM
Those laws stop drunks about as often as gun control stops criminals,

your fantasy differs with reality
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-533451.html
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: tokugawa on July 01, 2013, 07:03:42 PM
Your reading comprehension is in fail mode-  posting a news article about drunk driving stat's in various States in no way invalidates my assertion that laws do not do anything to reduce drunk driving, with especial regard to the new ultra low limits being proposed.
 
Title: Re: Forced bood draws if you refuse breathalyzer.
Post by: Balog on July 01, 2013, 07:12:07 PM
Quote
NHTSA defines an alcohol-related fatality as any that occurred in an accident where a driver, pedestrian or cyclist had alcohol detected in their blood. In most states, it is legal to drive with less than 0.08 percent blood alcohol content.


Have a beer and get rear ended at a stoplight with a .001 BAC? ZOMG it's a drunk driving accident!!!!!

There's no evidence in the link that the laws are responsible for the death rate from "drunk driving." How much of that correlates to better, safer cars reducing overall fatalities for example? And how many of the folks who actually did get in accidents due to intoxication were at .08 vs .15 or .2?

However, let's say that more laws does equal less drunk driving deaths. Are we willing to make that trade? Are road blocks and mandatory seraches/tests/blood draws a reasonable infringement to accept for a small decrease in fatalities, or is that an unreasonable search and seizure? Shall we ban swimming pools because it would undoubtedly prevent children from drowning?