Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on September 19, 2013, 12:38:54 PM
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http://www.france24.com/en/20130919-pope-wants-airport-bishops-grounded
He seems to really be shaking up the church and cleaning it up. And genuine in his desire to do so.
I started this thread in the Politics forum, mostly due to the seemingly apolitical nature of this pope and how surprising it is.
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hes very cool
now watch how the vatican political machine goes after him
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hes very cool
now watch how the vatican political machine goes after him
Verbum.
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its saddened me to say it its a time where being wrong would make me very happy
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If they are not in the office, how can they become aware of the various abuses being committed by those under them? :angel:
Not being a Catholic, the few times I have observed the parish response to a visit from the Bishop made me understand why we no longer have nobility in the country. There was more pomp and circumstance in one visit than at a dozen high school graduations. It might actually be cheaper to keep them on the seminar circuit.
stay safe.
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Is this the Pope who wears regular shoes instead of some expensive fancy ones?
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One of my few hero's is Roger Williams.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Williams_%28theologian%29
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hes very cool
now watch how the vatican political machine goes after him
Unless he's got buggered altar boys in his past, I'm not completely sure they can. I guess they could undermine any of his more technical initiatives in terms of actual implementation. Not counting the outright corruption, financial and powerbrokering, a lot of the opposition in the Vatican is of the more liberal/worldly persuasion. And I can't see how they're going to find fault with his recent messages indicating that while the catechism isn't going to change on the issues, pursuing the "culture war" on homosexuality and birth control isn't going to be a priority going forward is going to make them line up against him.
I think if he doesn't demand some huge audit of the Vatican's books beyond maybe letting it be known he wants an end to a few of the most egregious abuses, they'll leave him be.
Real life isn't some Dan Brown novel, I don't think they're going to poison him, or set up a new anti-pope in Avignon. [tinfoil]
If there's actual movement on married clergy, I think the main downside is this is the pope who could have saved the Catholic Church in America... if he'd been selected 20-30 years ago.
An itinerant priest who has to handle 3-4 parishes, or when they can't sustain even that, an import from S. America or Africa who can barely say mass in English, that's not going to cut it.
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You can be a married priest now. Just have to defect from the episcopal church
damn phone
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You can be a married priest now. Just have to defect from the episcopal church
damn phone
Aware of that loophole, but it's just a trickle.
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oh but i think it opens a doot
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oh but i think it opens a doot
I personally think only trained, qualified and licensed individuals should be allowed to open a doot. :laugh:
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Pope Francis is the Catholic version of a liberal Republican. Hmmmn... CINO? I don't see how his liberation theology, amoral, don't-stand-for-anything sort of viewpoint will stand the church in good stead. This is an unfolding disaster for Catholicism. If some Catholics want a fuzzy-bunny, puppy kisses, socially conscious church, there's any number of others they can attend.
I believe there's gonna be a split/schism in the church.
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double tap
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triple tap
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geez
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My pastor mentioned the Pope yesterday; says he's not too sure of the guy. I asked if he was talking about the Pope wanting to take a softer stance on homosexuality and abortion and birth control, and focus more on the Gospel. You can't bring people in if you are constantly driving them away. He said no, it was the part (which I hadn't heard and have not yet verified) where he said people should follow their consciences, and if they do that it's good enough -- with no mention of Jesus at all.
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He said no, it was the part (which I hadn't heard and have not yet verified) where he said people should follow their consciences, and if they do that it's good enough -- with no mention of Jesus at all.
So now we now have a secular humanist as a Pope? :facepalm:
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Pope Francis is the Catholic version of a liberal Republican. Hmmmn... CINO? I don't see how his liberation theology, amoral, don't-stand-for-anything sort of viewpoint will stand the church in good stead. This is an unfolding disaster for Catholicism. If some Catholics want a fuzzy-bunny, puppy kisses, socially conscious church, there's any number of others they can attend.
I believe there's gonna be a split/schism in the church.
As I understand it, Francis is not saying that abortion is OK, or that homosexuality is not a sin. Rather, he wants the church to handle such sins in a softer way. Now, that may not work, either, but he isn't nearly so "tolerant" as the portrait the media is painting of him.
Aware of that loophole, but it's just a trickle.
I thought Catholic priests could also be married, if they were already married before they went "religious."
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My pastor mentioned the Pope yesterday; says he's not too sure of the guy. I asked if he was talking about the Pope wanting to take a softer stance on homosexuality and abortion and birth control, and focus more on the Gospel. You can't bring people in if you are constantly driving them away. He said no, it was the part (which I hadn't heard and have not yet verified) where he said people should follow their consciences, and if they do that it's good enough -- with no mention of Jesus at all.
no mention?
http://www.religionnews.com/2013/09/11/pope-francis-tells-atheists-to-obey-their-conscience/
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As I understand it, Francis is not saying that abortion is OK, or that homosexuality is not a sin. Rather, he wants the church to handle such sins in a softer way. Now, that may not work, either, but he isn't nearly so "tolerant" as the portrait the media is painting of him.
I thought Catholic priests could also be married, if they were already married before they went "religious."
http://www.catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-on-abortion-and-homosexual-marriage
http://www.lifenews.com/2013/03/13/new-pope-francis-called-abortion-the-death-penalty-for-the-unborn/
i think this pope scares folks
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/09/yesterday-msm-reports-francis-said-church-is-obsessed-about-abortion-today-pope-francis-talks-about-abortion/
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no mention?
http://www.religionnews.com/2013/09/11/pope-francis-tells-atheists-to-obey-their-conscience/
Thanks for the link.
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Thanks for the link.
i had a g/f who once posed a great question.
if someone lead a good life, in the classic judeo/christian sense of morals/commandments, and had never been exposed to the idea of god and belief, would the god of my understanding deny him ?
i would like to think not. and i surely hope that that person would be favored over the many pious hypocrites that parade around. i do belive in that god of compassion and understanding and try not to involve myself with preachers that don't. and one does not have to be wbc class to not make the grade
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i had a g/f who once posed a great question.
if someone lead a good life, in the classic judeo/christian sense of morals/commandments, and had never been exposed to the idea of god and belief, would the god of my understanding deny him ?
i would like to think not. and i surely hope that that person would be favored over the many pious hypocrites that parade around. i do belive in that god of compassion and understanding and try not to involve myself with preachers that don't. and one does not have to be wbc class to not make the grade
Jesus answered that one pretty clearly. Lead a good life by obeying the commandments, and you will be saved.
Of course, only Christ himself has ever managed to pull it off...
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without attempting to deal with the "salvation by faith alone" Protestant orthodoxy, let me say that the Pope should, at the least, suggest that maybe one might at least nod toward the Nicene Creed, the Bible, the lives of the saints, or SOMETHING that resembles doctrinal, doctrinaire Catholicism. "Obsessed with abortion". Really? A practice that has ended more lives in the last handful of years than all wars fought in the 20th century? THAT abortion??? Toughen up, Francis. You don't stand for that, you don't stand for anything.
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without attempting to deal with the "salvation by faith alone" Protestant orthodoxy, let me say that the Pope should, at the least, suggest that maybe one might at least nod toward the Nicene Creed, the Bible, the lives of the saints, or SOMETHING that resembles doctrinal, doctrinaire Catholicism. "Obsessed with abortion". Really? A practice that has ended more lives in the last handful of years than all wars fought in the 20th century? THAT abortion??? Toughen up, Francis. You don't stand for that, you don't stand for anything.
reading its fundamental
Last year, then-Cardinal Bergoglio stated, “Abortion is never a solution. We listen, support and understanding from our place to save two lives: respect the human being small and helpless, they can take steps to preserve your life, allow birth and then be creative in the search for ways to bring it to its full development.”
He once called abortion a “death sentence” for unborn children, during a 2007 speech and likening opposition to abortion to opposition to the death penalty.
In an October 2, 2007 speech Bergoglio said that “we aren’t in agreement with the death penalty,” but “in Argentina we have the death penalty. A child conceived by the rape of a mentally ill or retarded woman can be condemned to death.”
The remarks came during the presentation of a document called the Aparecida Document, a joint statement of the bishops of Latin America.
The document, which the new Pope presented on behalf of his colleagues at the time and signed of on, referred to abortion and communion, said “we should commit ourselves to ‘eucharistic coherence’, that is, we should be conscious that people cannot receive holy communion and at the same time act or speak against the commandments, in particular when abortion, euthanasia, and other serious crimes against life and family are facilitated. This responsibility applies particularly to legislators, governors, and health professionals.”
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or video
http://shine.yahoo.com/video/pope-seeks-less-focus-abortion-122450466.html
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I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic school early on - until my parents realized they could save a ton of money by switching to Gov't Indoctrination Entrenched Corporate Obedience ... >:D
Currently I'm at a standstill spiritually - I know I am pro life, I know I am a believer - I just don't know much else.
As a cathoholic I've been paying a little attention to the new Pope and liked him at first-currently- I am kind of pissed off at him-I just don't know why [tinfoil] :angel:
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I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic school early on - until my parents realized they could save a ton of money by switching to Gov't Indoctrination Entrenched Corporate Obedience ... >:D
Currently I'm at a standstill spiritually - I know I am pro life, I know I am a believer - I just don't know much else.
As a cathoholic I've been paying a little attention to the new Pope and liked him at first-currently- I am kind of pissed off at him-I just don't know why [tinfoil] :angel:
Gunsmith I pretty much abandoned any specific flavor of Christianity myself. I've got a good relationship with God and know a few chaplains here and there to consult with when needed and that works for me.
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The MSM is pretty desperately trying to spin this Pope to be something he's not. I haven't seen this much silly out of context quoting in a while. And I'm definitely not a Catholic.
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The MSM is pretty desperately trying to spin this Pope to be something he's not.
Those smart guys on the LCMS radio having been saying exactly that. They kinda know what they're talking about.
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End times are here I agree with fistful and balog.
The msn gets some blame but sadly much of the disinformation is generated within the catholic church by folks who fear this pope. He threatens their power
damn phone
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End times are here I agree with fistful and balog.
The msn gets some blame but sadly much of the disinformation is generated within the catholic church by folks who fear this pope. He threatens their power
damn phone
The pope may be partly to blame for saying certain things that can be spun a certain way, when he could be more clear. Of course, with a media determined to draw the wrong conclusions, clarity may not help that much.
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A practice that has ended more lives in the last handful of years than all wars fought in the 20th century?
Cite?
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Cite?
Off the top of my head there have been 22 million abortions just in the black community since 1970
To give that perspective that's equivalent to all the living black folks in the us now
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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reading its fundamental
Last year, then-Cardinal Bergoglio stated, “Abortion is never a solution. We listen, support and understanding from our place to save two lives: respect the human being small and helpless, they can take steps to preserve your life, allow birth and then be creative in the search for ways to bring it to its full development.”
He once called abortion a “death sentence” for unborn children, during a 2007 speech and likening opposition to abortion to opposition to the death penalty.
In an October 2, 2007 speech Bergoglio said that “we aren’t in agreement with the death penalty,” but “in Argentina we have the death penalty. A child conceived by the rape of a mentally ill or retarded woman can be condemned to death.”
The remarks came during the presentation of a document called the Aparecida Document, a joint statement of the bishops of Latin America.
The document, which the new Pope presented on behalf of his colleagues at the time and signed of on, referred to abortion and communion, said “we should commit ourselves to ‘eucharistic coherence’, that is, we should be conscious that people cannot receive holy communion and at the same time act or speak against the commandments, in particular when abortion, euthanasia, and other serious crimes against life and family are facilitated. This responsibility applies particularly to legislators, governors, and health professionals.”
Oh yeah? Well then he says:
From the NYT "Francis told the interviewer, a fellow Jesuit: “It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."
I don't think the NYT is trying to make him look more traditional in his teachings and outlook. Do you? Sounds to me like he's trying to walk back the church's dogma/doctrine.
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Often folks who are not believers and have little to no grasp of the spiritual/metaphysical context of dogma/doctrine are the ones who push particular issues to the forefront.
Christianity in general is in a defensive posture and is under constant attack from the philosophic myopic post modernists.
Attacking the philosophical foundations of western democratic liberty with nothing waiting in the wings to hold the edifice of the modern western world together is a recipe for disaster.
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Oh yeah? Well then he says:
From the NYT "Francis told the interviewer, a fellow Jesuit: “It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."
I don't think the NYT is trying to make him look more traditional in his teachings and outlook. Do you? Sounds to me like he's trying to walk back the church's dogma/doctrine.
At least you didn't try the zomg hes gonna ordain female cardinals story making the rounds
damn phone
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Oh yeah? Well then he says:
From the NYT "Francis told the interviewer, a fellow Jesuit: “It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."
I don't think the NYT is trying to make him look more traditional in his teachings and outlook. Do you? Sounds to me like he's trying to walk back the church's dogma/doctrine.
what part shows him "walking back" a doctrine
damn phone
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what part shows him "walking back" a doctrine
damn phone
CSD, if you don't find that in the context, I can't help you. Calling them "a disjointed multitude" "imposed insistently" and "not all equivalent" is clear enough for me. Did you expect him to come out and say "Oh, that abortion thing? That's like, totally last century".
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CSD, if you don't find that in the context, I can't help you. Calling them "a disjointed multitude" "imposed insistently" and "not all equivalent" is clear enough for me. Did you expect him to come out and say "Oh, that abortion thing? That's like, totally last century".
Those are unpleasant truths for you?
damn phone
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Off the top of my head there have been 22 million abortions just in the black community since 1970
To give that perspective that's equivalent to all the living black folks in the us now
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Not much of a cite really. I can come up with lots of stats off the top of my head also. Doesn't make them accurate, or remotely related to reality for that matter . . . .
I'm not looking to get into a discussion on abortion, I'm just suggesting toning down the hyperbole when trying to prove your point.
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Not much of a cite really. I can come up with lots of stats off the top of my head also. Doesn't make them accurate, or remotely related to reality for that matter . . . .
I'm not looking to get into a discussion on abortion, I'm just suggesting toning down the hyperbole when trying to prove your point.
Taken worldwide, the number of abortions in the 20th century dwarf the numbers slain in all of the genocides/Communist purges/wars combined. It's not hyperbole. Every year on average, more than 40,000,000 children are aborted. And it's very possible that number is understated, given the poor reporting in the many impoverished countries where abortion is most common.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html
http://www.lifenews.com/2011/04/21/earth-day-abortion-has-killed-1-2-billion-worldwide-in-50-years/
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You'll like this, then, Balog:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/24/vatican-court-head-no-communion-nancy-pelosi/
By Vatican Law, Pelosi to be denied communion.
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http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html
Thanks!
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You'll like this, then, Balog:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/24/vatican-court-head-no-communion-nancy-pelosi/
By Vatican Law, Pelosi to be denied communion.
While I'm no filthy papist ;) any social sanctions brought to bear against folks like Pelosi do in fact bring a smile to my face.
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So, OP is saying that the Pope is pretty dope?
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So, OP is saying that the Pope is pretty dope?
Yup
And i suspect he'd chuckle at that while the establishment would cluck
their tongues
damn phone
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Pope Francis is the Catholic version of a liberal Republican. Hmmmn... CINO? I don't see how his liberation theology, amoral, don't-stand-for-anything sort of viewpoint will stand the church in good stead. This is an unfolding disaster for Catholicism. If some Catholics want a fuzzy-bunny, puppy kisses, socially conscious church, there's any number of others they can attend.
I believe there's gonna be a split/schism in the church.
If so, maybe it'll be a counter-balance to the (unacknowledged) schism in the Worldwide Anglican Communion.