Post by: Monkeyleg on August 28, 2006, 07:03:32 PM
It's been a tough road, believe me.
Five years ago, she took a horrible job with US Bank, the only reason being that we would get affordable health insurance.
Most of the people working in that department were "welfare-to-work" folks, who hadn't ever held a job before.
From time to time, my wife would give a ride home to "Big Deb," who lives only a few miles from us in West Allis.
On one of those rides home, Big Deb asked my wife if we had such-and-such a movie on DVD.
My wife told her that we didn't have a DVD player. Big Deb was astonished: how could we not have a DVD player?
When my wife got home, she felt bad. We didn't have a DVD player (the logical answer to which is that we don't buy any DVD's, or even watch that much TV. Nevermind).
I then said, "your friend Big Deb lives in a house that's paid for by Milwaukee County. We work our butts off to pay for our mortgage, and for the very property taxes that pay for Big Deb's house. She lives in that house for free. Do you see a problem here?"
After a minute or so, my wife got really angry. That was the first step to bringing her around.
To add fuel to the fire, I trotted out a 1994 front-page article from the Washington Post that talked about how welfare mothers were having a hard time buying Christmas presents for their kids. The photo showed a mother and, in the background, a kid playing in a cardboard box. The mother said, in the quote, that the box was the only toy her kid had.
The box was for a big-screen TV. The TV could be seen in the background.
As mentioned in another thread, my wife just started a new job at the beginning of this month, working for the company that her sister and her sister's husband run. She does everything from bookwork to running errands to helping rent out apartments in the two buildings my SIL and BIL own.
She has to not only show the apartments, but also clean them and, if necessary, paint them. She has no problem with that; she likes physical work.
Tonight, she came home a bit agitated. The woman (and her scumbag boyfriend) to whom she was showing the apartment had filled out a rental application.
The woman was 42, ten years younger than my wife.
Under employment history, the woman wrote, "none."
Under sources of income, the woman listed everything from food stamps to rent assistance to every other social program imaginable.
My wife came home covered in paint, and full of sweat after a long day of hard work.
And she started to rant about how nobody in that neighborhood works, how they're all drugged up all day, and just hang out.
I pulled the trigger too soon by saying, "Welcome to the Republican party."
But the message sunk in. It's taken years, but I think I've managed to bring her over to The Dark Side.
Post by: K Frame on August 28, 2006, 07:50:13 PM
Post by: lupinus on August 28, 2006, 08:01:22 PM
"Come to the dark side! We have cookies"
Post by: 280plus on August 28, 2006, 08:36:07 PM
Post by: lupinus on August 28, 2006, 08:39:37 PM
Probably close to 80% of the people who get welfare shouldn't be getting it. And the people who should don't get enough to live on mainly because of the people who shouldn't get it.
Post by: Leatherneck on August 29, 2006, 02:05:40 AM
TC
Post by: Guest on August 29, 2006, 02:21:54 AM
Post by: TMM on August 29, 2006, 03:07:50 AM
~tmm
Post by: Art Eatman on August 29, 2006, 04:03:26 AM
I know folks around here in Terlingua who are poor and walking, or are poor and make do with ancient, unreliable pickemups. I also have eyeballed quite healthy young men in the "projects" who don't work and who drive around in Shiny New Cars...
There's no "one size fits all" in this deal...
Art
Post by: roo_ster on August 29, 2006, 05:56:52 AM
I spent quite enough time working in housing projects and in other parts of the 'hood to come to the conclusion that we pour 90% of our welfare $$$ down a rathole.
Post by: richyoung on August 29, 2006, 06:16:26 AM
Quote from: lupinus
the people who smile pick up their check and head back to their street corner to sell what it is they sell on street corners.
BINGO. If you are selling dope, or prostituting, or any other "off-the-books" income, guess what? You have NO PROBLEM qualifying for rent assistance, food stamps, welfare, WIC, Aid to families with dependant children, health care, etc. Meanwhile, my Desert Storm veteran friend, with a degree, who was wrangling mentally ill and violent people for 7 whole dollars an hour, on the midnight shift - walking to work and eating Ramen noodle and PBJs (when he could afford it - went hungry otherwise) got SQUAT - because "he made too much money"....Bottom line, if you tax (punish) something, you get less of it - if you reward/subsidize somehting, you get more of it - guess what welfare does? It taxes productivity and rewards sloth. If we shook the cheaters, dopers, pimps, "playahs" etc out, we could GIVE everyone who truly needs it a new house AND a new car AND an allowance for food, gas ans utilities.
Post by: BakerMikeRomeo on August 29, 2006, 08:02:43 AM
Anydangway.
~GnSx
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on August 29, 2006, 08:04:13 AM
^^
Post by: BakerMikeRomeo on August 29, 2006, 08:20:52 AM
I don't care to call myself a libertarian, as I've got plenty of disagreements with those who do, but w/ regard to the war on drugs and the war on things that Old Lady Perkins Down The Street is offended by, I don't care to waste any more money or lives on it than we already have, and I think that the benefits would vastly outweigh the negative side effects.
But that's roaming OT,
~GnSx
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on August 29, 2006, 08:35:14 AM
Post by: Firethorn on August 29, 2006, 01:10:16 PM
Quote from: GunnySkox
I don't care to call myself a libertarian, as I've got plenty of disagreements with those who do, but w/ regard to the war on drugs and the war on things that Old Lady Perkins Down The Street is offended by, I don't care to waste any more money or lives on it than we already have, and I think that the benefits would vastly outweigh the negative side effects.
Sounds like you're alot like me. I tend to call myself a 'moderate libertarian', but that's because I'm not willing to call myself either a republican or a democrat.
Post by: Monkeyleg on August 29, 2006, 01:37:39 PM
I'm not saying that these folks are cheating, either. I've never gotten money from the government, so I don't know what the rules are.
What I do know is there are a zillion social programs out there, and that I'm helping pay for them at a time when we're having to watch every dollar we spend.
An old high school friend of mine, and former Communist, works for one of those little social agencies. When I use the term "work," I use it loosely.
His job is to manage the remodeling of low-income homes. His agency will take one of these homes and spend as much as $50,000 on improvements: new roofs, paint, walls, plumbing, etc. All paid for by the city and county (IOW, me).
If the occupant of the home doesn't like the color of whatever, he/she calls the alderman to complain. And the agency does the job over again.
Our house will need a new roof in the next couple of years. I have a chimney that needs to be rebuilt at a cost of $8,000. I have four slabs of sidewalk on the side of the house that need replacing; best price I got was $3000. We could really use a new garage. I'm still not finished putting new tile and fixtures in our main bathroom. And our basement needs some work.
There's no city or county agency rushing to give us the money to get this done. That's OK. We'll finish our fixer-upper home in time.
We could get it done faster, though, if we weren't paying for everyone else.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 29, 2006, 02:36:42 PM
Post by: Firethorn on August 29, 2006, 03:55:10 PM
Quote from: fistful
Even if one accepts that government should have some kind of welfare program, shouldn't the flaws in the system be obvious?
The main problem with making it state level is that some states are substantially better off than others. On a lower level, for example, New Orleans would never have been able to support their level of welfare recipients without assistance from a higher level. As for how it works now, you have hundreds of different programs, many overlapping and duplicating other's efforts. For example, there's generally housing assistance at the federal, state and even municipal levels. There are some checks and balances in place, but they're honestly insufficient in the face of a determined leech.
Some of the older ones sounded pretty good, my parents were on WIC when I was born. Then again, dad was in the USAF at the time, and airmen weren't paid all that well. The core idea is to ensure proper nutrition for the mother while pregnant and the child after birth. The items eligable for WIC are limited. One of my coworkers is also on WIC, and complained when I talked about ending welfare. At least until I pointed out to him that he'd be more than compensated by drops in his taxes from the ending of all the other programs.
Personally, my interim solution would be to replace all the welfare with 'The Federal Jobs Program'. States can run their own version if they wish, of course. Paying less than minimum wage and being worked at least 40 hours a week, participants in the program would be provided food in a dining hall, room in a barracks/dormatory, clothing in the form of uniforms, and the cheapest healthcare I can find. You could earn credits good for training/education, as well as 'vacation time' to extend your 'benefits' so you can transition gracefully between the program and a free market job.
Post by: Guest on August 29, 2006, 04:07:04 PM
I'm just always skeptical of the welfare queen stories..not that they don't happen, but the people I've ever known on welfare are just dirt poor..and too often have no clue at all about how not to be poor. Seriously, its something they don't understand, grasp..just don't get it. In a lot of ways, its just basic survival for them..on an animal level. Often their parents were on welfare, drug users, drunks, and often people who preyed on other people. When you grow up like that, and I know way too many people who have, you just don't know there's another world..or you do, but its as realistic to you as watching a show on television. Kids grow up with no idea that *they* could finish school, go to college, and actually accomplish something. That's something for other people, not them. The number of people who break that cycle is miniscule. It does happen, but the odds are so stacked against it..I'd say less than 5%..which leads to more people living the same kind of lives, because even birth control isn't an important concept for them. They're people who see life as something that happens to them, not something they have any real control over.
I don't have any answers, but I think the only way in the world that kind of poverty..not being broke, not not having enough money, but pure poverty..financial, spiritual, cultural, whatever you want to call it, can be fixed is through person intervention, mentoring, whatever you want to call it. That's why I hate government welfare, or at least on a federal or even state level. It gives people the opportunity to wash their hands of actually looking at a child who is malnourished because her parents have no concept of what constitutes a good diet, no access to fresh vegetables if they did know, no money for good food if it was accessable, and no concept of working a 40 hour week to earn the money to pay for it. They write a check, its funneled through a huge bureaucracy, a small part actually goes to programs that might make a difference (WIC is one, I can think of..maybe school lunch programs) but no one actually has to think about the child until either December 25th or April 15.
So, that's my rant for the day. I guess.
Wel, so that's
Post by: BozemanMT on August 29, 2006, 05:12:35 PM
Where it's easier to go underground then to pay more than you make.
I'm not saying it's here yet
but it's close.
I figure I get to keep right at about 50% of what i "make"
if it goes to 51%, well I might just sit on the other side of the fence for a while. And i can't be the only one thinking that.
Do the socialists not take econ 101?
And oh yes, I have a friend who rents section 8 housing, they have to pay rent. like $50 of the $1000 rent.
WTF?
Move to someplace cheaper. And 80% of them have been in housing forever and they are never getting off.
It needs a time limit.
You are on hard times, we understand that, everyone wants to help. Here's a year's worth of help.
At day 366, you are on your own.
Post by: Art Eatman on August 29, 2006, 05:25:20 PM
It always irks me to drive through some little quasi-ghost-town and the only new buildings there are paid for by taxes, and the sign says it's some social services outfit.
Art
Post by: doczinn on August 29, 2006, 06:44:15 PM
Post by: Sindawe on August 29, 2006, 07:06:33 PM
Quote
I figure I get to keep right at about 50% of what i "make"
if it goes to 51%, well I might just sit on the other side of the fence for a while. And i can't be the only one thinking that.
Last time I tallied it all up for a year (I saved 99% of the years receipts), my tax burdern was running at about 53% of my gross income. Of course, I'm childfree so I don't have those deductions and Earned Income Credit nonsense. I can not sit on the other side of the fence though. I used to rail about an aquantance who was one of those "sit on her bum and wait for the checks" welfare parasites who would let her kid run riot in the house (her mothers, she lived in the basement), so I can not in good conscience so that very same thing myself.if it goes to 51%, well I might just sit on the other side of the fence for a while. And i can't be the only one thinking that.
Hubris? Yes
Hypocrisy? No.
Post by: roo_ster on August 29, 2006, 08:05:04 PM
For example...
A buddy of mine has a sister who graduated from Hendrix College* in Little Rock, AR. She took the whole panoply of *-Studies courses: Women's, Black, Victim's, etc. After graduation she worked a grand total of two weeks in a counseling center for troubled youths...where one youth stepped on her instep.
She has parleyed that into years worth of disability payments. The gov't has given her a lawyer, as well, to help her get other goodies like SS, health insurance from her former employer & such. When she went back for her Master's in (what else?) Social Work, the University of Arkansas at Little Rock (UALR) gave her a lawyer to sue UALR for not providing an "interpreter."
Oh, she speaks English. SHe just refuses to raise her voice. SHe says it is one of her disabilities and that UALR has to provide the interpreter so she can fully participate in class. I am not making this up.
Her buggery of the welfare/aid system was so dirty & ergregious, that her gov't-appointed lawyer begged the judge to have himself removed from her cases. Even a lawyer found such mechanations too dirty for his conscience.
She did have a scare, though. An investigator for worker's comp took pictures of her moving boxes out of her 2004 Honda CRV** into the house she rents** and sought to have the WC ended. SHe hurriedly got her gov't-appointed lawyer whipped up to fight it and bought herself a 4-point cane...her now-constant companion.
SHe won her WC action and still gets it.
Every once in a while she goes to a Dr to have yet another diagnosis for yet another illness, just to make sure she stays qualified for the various disability programs.
* I have seen too many graduates of this school. No dollar of mine will go to send a child of mine htere.
** Bought with the proceeds of her hard work(ing the system).
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 29, 2006, 08:08:58 PM
Quote from: jfruser
Even a lawyer found such mechanations too dirty for his conscience.
Then I was stunned.
Post by: Monkeyleg on August 29, 2006, 10:06:16 PM
They just charge more.
Post by: Firethorn on August 30, 2006, 02:05:01 AM
It might work better if you didn't have so many programs, went with a single large assistance office in each area. Oh, and a review board to try to pry off the leeches. Of course, as far as I'm concerned, somebody who's not truly seriously physically handicapped or mentally retarded who's not trying to get off the system is a leech.
Quote
Oh, she speaks English. SHe just refuses to raise her voice. SHe says it is one of her disabilities and that UALR has to provide the interpreter so she can fully participate in class. I am not making this up.
I would of handed her a bullhorn, or a microphone hooked into a speaker system. There are people without voiceboxes who manage without an 'interpreter'.
Post by: richyoung on August 30, 2006, 06:35:20 AM
Quote from: Firethorn
The main problem with making it state level is that some states are substantially better off than others.
That problem already fixes itself with respect to the mentally ill: in some northern states, the "treatment" for the mentally ill without health care is a bus ticket to Oklahoma. If the "better off than others" states have better benefits, "they will come."Quote
On a lower level, for example, New Orleans would never have been able to support their level of welfare recipients without assistance from a higher level.
...and that would have been a good thing - Katrina pointed out the absolute FAILURE of .gov to provide for or protect you in a crisis - but they WILL take your guns just when you need them the most, (The ones that don't abandon you completely, that is....) And they RE-ELECTED "School Bus" Nagin - the people of the Big Easy haven't learned a thing.Quote
Personally, my interim solution would be to replace all the welfare with 'The Federal Jobs Program'. States can run their own version if they wish, of course. Paying less than minimum wage and being worked at least 40 hours a week, participants in the program would be provided food in a dining hall, room in a barracks/dormatory, clothing in the form of uniforms, and the cheapest healthcare I can find. You could earn credits good for training/education, as well as 'vacation time' to extend your 'benefits' so you can transition gracefully between the program and a free market job.
Already exists - its called an "Army of ONE", and it matches your description to a tee...
Post by: Firethorn on August 30, 2006, 09:04:03 AM
Quote from: richyoung
That problem already fixes itself with respect to the mentally ill: in some northern states, the "treatment" for the mentally ill without health care is a bus ticket to Oklahoma. If the "better off than others" states have better benefits, "they will come."
Agreed.Quote
...and that would have been a good thing - Katrina pointed out the absolute FAILURE of .gov to provide for or protect you in a crisis - but they WILL take your guns just when you need them the most, (The ones that don't abandon you completely, that is....) And they RE-ELECTED "School Bus" Nagin - the people of the Big Easy haven't learned a thing.
I was using it as the easiest example off the top of my head. I wasn't stating that it was a good thing, especially in NO's case.Quote
Already exists - its called an "Army of ONE", and it matches your description to a tee...
Except that the DoD doesn't want these people. The majority of them, even with today's looser army standards most wouldn't be accepted. Many don't even have a GED, they have medical problems that would disqualify them, they're not in shape, etc... Call it what you want, the FEP, Jobcore, whatever, I'd pay them even less than an E-1 < 4 months(though we might end up giving the E1s a raise while we're at it). My goal would be that enlisting would be a step UP for them.
The deal would be that FEP will take any US citizen, and won't fire them as long as they work their 40 hours/week. Won't pay them worth jack. I figured double the base prison wage.
What would they do? Well, I'd disallow commercial operations, but work to support their needs(IE cooking in the dining facility, cleaning up), and a vague, widespread 'public good' like picking up trash.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 30, 2006, 11:33:37 AM
Post by: Gewehr98 on August 30, 2006, 12:22:53 PM
Barbara, as long as I draw breath, I'll never forget a scene in Sacramento, PRK where a woman rushed in to get a dozen cans of cat food, jumps in the checkout line in front of me, pulls out the appropriate amount of food stamps, then sprints to her brand-new Cadillac parked in the disabled area out front. The cashier just rolled her eyes when I asked her if she saw a lot of that. Cat food lady obviously knew how to make the system work for her.
Post by: 280plus on August 30, 2006, 01:18:12 PM
Post by: Gewehr98 on August 30, 2006, 01:36:16 PM
Can't be any worse than that Underwood Deviled Ham stuff they sell in the little cans, suspiciously a lot like cat food...
Post by: Guest on August 30, 2006, 06:12:23 PM
If I had to guess, I'd say the foodstamps were bought, not received from the government. There are people in poor neighborhoods who will buy them at 50 cents on the dollar for cash, and lots of people will sell them..either those who need cash more than they need food at that point in time, or those who are selling the foodstamps to buy drugs.
Post by: richyoung on August 31, 2006, 04:46:16 AM
Quote from: Gewehr98
As somebody who just retired after 20+ years from what I consider a successful and rewarding military career, I deeply resent what Rich is trying to imply regarding the purpose of the military as a welfare agency.
Befoer you "resent" what "Rich is trying to imply", you need to make sure you have correctly deduced what "Rich is trying to imply". What Rich was trying to imply is that we treat the men and women that serve this country EXACTLY like the people in the mythical "job program" were to be treated...and they deserve more.Quote
That perception stinks on ice, period, and it makes me wonder if he's ever been in the military.
Got me there - Dad retired as a CW3, two tours in 'Nam , gunship pilot. Me, I was never IN the Army...but I've worked for it all my life, off and on. My current job is at Fort Sill, helping train officers, warrants, NCOs and battle staffs using computer based simulations such as JCATS, FireSim, JADOCS, JANUS, etc. I also set up the threat (Red) offenses and defenses, and frequently control them in simulation runs. Close enough?Quote
Likewise, I'm rather grateful the military entrance requirements, even those I saw all those years ago at the MEPS station, would weed out those bottom-feeders that Rich would send to enlist.
I'M NOT TRYING TO ENLIST THEM - I just want our young soldiers, sailors, and airmen off of food stamps and WIC, and not prey to "payday" loan outfits, note car lots, and pawn shops - apparently I somehow miscommunicated that...Quote
Even if they made it past the recruiters and MEPS stations, I'd pity their souls after the first few minutes of a DI's nurturing care.
I guess you haven't heard about "stress cards", or the rumored waiver of the HS/GED diploma requirement to enlist...
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 31, 2006, 07:30:06 AM
Post by: Firethorn on August 31, 2006, 10:05:57 AM
Quote from: richyoung
I'M NOT TRYING TO ENLIST THEM - I just want our young soldiers, sailors, and airmen off of food stamps and WIC, and not prey to "payday" loan outfits, note car lots, and pawn shops - apparently I somehow miscommunicated that...
I'm afraid that you were misunderstood.I'll admit, I did base my 'solution' upon how the military treats young soldiers/airmen/sailors/marines. But I'd want it run like a civilian agency. It's job is to cover the basic essentials, plus educate people, keep them used to working, keep them off the street and hopefully off of drugs*.
By my calc, an E1<4 earns about $6.87 an hour, if he only works 40 hours a week. The trick is, he's salary, which is otherwise pretty much unheard of at that payscale. On the other hand, housing, food, and work uniforms are provided seperatly, and medical care is provided at no additional expense. Still, this level has only been obtained after years of raises. Federal minimum wage was increased in 1997 to $5.15. The E1 would have been paid $883, which would have been $5.15 with a 40 hour week. The thing is, how many military actually only work 40 hours a week? Basic training alone is above 60, and that's for the relativly easygoing air force. Suddenly the new recruit is only earning $4.58/hour(and that's TODAY). It gets even more sick during deployments, when working hours are often 80+ hours a week. Tax free and combat bonuses don't even come close.
Yes, it's sad. But then again, I'd only pay $1-2 for my 'jobcore'. $40-80/week is enough to cover incidentals like shaving supplies, personal toiletries, and the occasional cheap luxury.
*While I support legalization, I also feel that if you're going to suck at the government teat, you should at least be clean.
Post by: Gewehr98 on August 31, 2006, 12:03:18 PM
http://www.snopes.com/military/stress.htm
I had two airmen assigned to me from 1992-1999 who had at least 4 children each. Both airmen were eligible for food stamps. Neither used them, they took part-time jobs after hours to make up the difference instead. As I found out during their twice-yearly feedback sessions, they didn't want the stigma of food stamps attached to them or their families. As part of their chain of command, I did, however, deliver holiday turkey baskets to them without hesitation. I did as much as I humanly could to make sure those two families prospered and were given what they needed, spending time with them and even fending off Sacramento Child Protective Services when one of them showed hand spanking marks on thier bottom after being caught drinking from the toilet.
One of the families separated from the service after 6 years and I lost track. The other, I'm proud to say, has a Senior Master Sergeant as proud papa of 4 girls, the eldest of whom received a full scholarship to Florida Institute of Technology, the next oldest enrolled in Florida State University. All 4 girls are either on the Dean's List or have received Academic Honors from their high schools. Their mom and dad now own a gorgeous, 4 bedroom, 3 bath house in Melbourne, appraised over $350K. You wouldn't know they were eligible for food stamps not more than 10 years ago.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 31, 2006, 12:33:08 PM
Quote
For a few years during the 1990s, the US Navy did issue "stress cards" to new recruits....these cards listed names and phone numbers of resources the newcomers could contact "if things pile[d] up." The cards were strictly for informational purposes: they informed recruits of available support services.
Navy trainers began reporting that some of the recruits had taken to raising their cards while being disciplined, as a way of signalling for time out. It's unclear whether any of those enduring basic training really thought that was the purpose of the cards or whether this was just standard armed forces jackassing, but the Navy took no chances and got rid of the cards.
Navy trainers began reporting that some of the recruits had taken to raising their cards while being disciplined, as a way of signalling for time out. It's unclear whether any of those enduring basic training really thought that was the purpose of the cards or whether this was just standard armed forces jackassing, but the Navy took no chances and got rid of the cards.
Post by: Brad Johnson on August 31, 2006, 01:01:11 PM
Quote
Can't be any worse than that Underwood Deviled Ham stuff they sell in the little cans, suspiciously a lot like cat food...
Hey, I like that stuff! Of course I also like creamed spinach, chicken livers, mashed turnips, and sweetbreads (and not the flour kind ).You should try the "Potted Meat Food Product" they sell on the next shelf down. It's really good when it's spent most of an afternoon in direct sunlight on the dash of your truck on a 110 deg F day. Put it on some stale, chewy crackers and wash it down with a warm Coke. Mmmm. *uggghhrrffff*
Brad