Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: cassandra and sara's daddy on October 23, 2013, 06:32:39 PM
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Would an ak replica have a orange plastic tip?
This re 13 year old shot in california
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Would an ak replica have a orange plastic tip?
This re 13 year old shot in california
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I believe they're all sold that way - but many kids will pull that tip off or spraypaint it, for obvious reasons.
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Yea. This time it was bad. Real bad
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I have a hard time believing that a 13 year old would make threatening movements with an airsoft towards cops with drawn guns.
If he truly did, he deserves what he got. Not channeling or mocking anyone on the forum, I mean that whole-heartedly.
I just can't think any 13 year old is THAT stoopid nowadays.
I think this is twitchy supercop over-reaction, yet again. The notion that a 13 year old in CA can even FIND an AK is preposterous. By default, it has to be a toy. And the cops ought to have considered probability before engaging this particular nail with their hammers.
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I have a hard time believing that a 13 year old would make threatening movements with an airsoft towards cops with drawn guns.
The problem is, too many cops have been trained to regard ANY movement as "threatening," and to act IMMEDIATELY to neutralize the threat. Who knows what the kid did, or might have done? If he even blinked, a cop on an adrenalin rush could easily have perceived it as "threatening."
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I have a hard time believing that a 13 year old would make threatening movements with an airsoft towards cops with drawn guns.
If he truly did, he deserves what he got. Not channeling or mocking anyone on the forum, I mean that whole-heartedly.
I just can't think any 13 year old is THAT stoopid nowadays.
I think this is twitchy supercop over-reaction, yet again. The notion that a 13 year old in CA can even FIND an AK is preposterous. By default, it has to be a toy. And the cops ought to have considered probability before engaging this particular nail with their hammers.
Why do you believe a 13 year old couldn't find an ak?
When we wanted a gun in dc we went to the local high school to cop one
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The problem is, too many cops have been trained to regard ANY movement as "threatening," and to act IMMEDIATELY to neutralize the threat. Who knows what the kid did, or might have done? If he even blinked, a cop on an adrenalin rush could easily have perceived it as "threatening."
This is clearly bad training then. Guns drawn and pointed at a threat like this, finger should be off the trigger and alongside the frame unless there is actual demonstrable malice on the part of the target.
Cops get away with drawing guns and pointing them for authoritah's sake far more than you or I do, and are allowed to point guns at people to obtain compliance. As such, training needs to enforce strict trigger discipline.
I'd really like to see dashcam footage of this. Doubt it will ever surface. =|
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If they were away from car it won't exist. Makes a good case for body cams. Really wanna see the dallas cams footage
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Why do you believe a 13 year old couldn't find an ak?
When we wanted a gun in dc we went to the local high school to cop one
The story he's referencing actually is about a kid with a fake "rifle".
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/10/23/Calif-Sheriffs-deputies-shoot--kill-13-year-old
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Yea heres a pic from article i read
Its why I asked about the orange tip
https://www.google.com/search?q=13+year+old+shot+while+holding+fake+ak+47&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=kWloUq36J9en4AOE0ICQDg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAA#facrc=_&imgrc=ed3GoXwKcUOzNM%3A%3B5ZDJ_i9NUD1SHM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fww3.hdnux.com%252Fphotos%252F24%252F33%252F62%252F5356674%252F3%252F628x471.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.sfgate.com%252Fcrime%252Farticle%252FBoy-with-fake-gun-shot-dead-by-Sonoma-deputies-4918346.php%3B353%3B471
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Yeah, you'd be asking for a bullet if you pointed that at me. Or those deputies. If that's the gun in question.
I still would love to see video of the altercation. Just 'cuz the kid had a realistic looking airsoft gun doesn't mean he pointed it at anyone.
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Updated article from the local cyber-fishwrap:
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Friends-question-killing-of-boy-who-had-fake-rifle-4920174.php#photo-5360155
Photos 2 and 11 in the slideshow are pics of the fake gun the kid was carrying. Looks like the muzzle was broken off or cut off, hence no orange tip.
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This looks to be on the cheap junky end of Airsoft if it even is Airsoft...
However, there is a lot of it that comes in without the orange tips from Asia anyway. Or, like the "medium-end" Tokyo Mauri Airsoft P90 I got wayyyyy back around 2000 so I could skirmish with a group of friends who were looking for a cheap alternative to paintball, it came with a plastic junk orange flash hider, and a metal FN-style slant brake hidden down in the instructions packet. :angel:
Orange paint that comes off easily with alcohol is also popular with the higher-end Airsoft.
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There is supposed to be some amateur vid that starts right after shooting before cops approach the down kid with statements from the gut who drove up while cops were crouched down on otherside of car from kid.
Had a 9 year old point a replica at me once while working that was scary real looking.
I have not so mixed feelings about letting kids have those
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I have a friend who is heavily into airsofts. He has mostly all pistols, but even the meddle-grade ones are indistinguishable for a real firearm at even five feet away. He sent me one to look at once. It was an airsoft copy of a Wilson Combat 1911, and with the red muzzle cover removed (which he did immediately), there was no way to know it wasn't a real 1911 without handling it.
The red tips are required by law, but they are useless. The kids all take the red off so their toys will look real, and the gang bangers paint the muzzles of their Glocks red hoping the cops will think it's an airsoft. It a lose-lose situation all around, IMHO. They are fun to play with, but parents should NOT allow their kids to take them off their own property, or to play with them in the front yard where they can be seen from the street. It sucks, but this case illustrates the consequences.
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I have a friend whoo is heavily into airsofts. He has mostly all pistols, but even the meddle-grade ones are indistinguishable for a real firearm at even five feet away. He sent me one to look at once. It was an airsoft copy of a Wilson Combat 1911, and with the red muzzle cover removed (which he did immediately), there was no way to know it wasn't a real 1911 without handling it.
The red tips are required by law, but they are useless. The kids all take the red off so their toys will look real, and the gang bangers paint the muzzles of their Glocks red hoping the cops will think it's an airsoft. It a lose-lose situation all around, IMHO. They are fun to play with, but parents should NOT allow their kids to take them off their own property, or to play with them in the front yard where they can be seen from the street. It sucks, but this case illustrates the consequences.
Don't blame the tool.
Even if the kid was walking around with a real AK, police have no grounds shooting someone who doesn't DESERVE shooting. Behaviors should be the cause of bullets, not props.
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Don't blame the tool.
Even if the kid was walking around with a real AK, police have no grounds shooting someone who doesn't DESERVE shooting. Behaviors should be the cause of bullets, not props.
A 13yo kid probably isn't too cognizant of muzzle discipline.
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A 13yo kid probably isn't too cognizant of muzzle discipline.
Then he earned his bullets, if that's the case. =|
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I have a friend whoo is heavily into airsofts. He has mostly all pistols, but even the meddle-grade ones are indistinguishable for a real firearm at even five feet away. He sent me one to look at once. It was an airsoft copy of a Wilson Combat 1911, and with the red muzzle cover removed (which he did immediately), there was no way to know it wasn't a real 1911 without handling it.
The red tips are required by law, but they are useless. The kids all take the red off so their toys will look real, and the gang bangers paint the muzzles of their Glocks red hoping the cops will think it's an airsoft. It a lose-lose situation all around, IMHO. They are fun to play with, but parents should NOT allow their kids to take them off their own property, or to play with them in the front yard where they can be seen from the street. It sucks, but this case illustrates the consequences.
The painted tips are only required to be imported into the US, the law ends there.
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Then he earned his bullets, if that's the case. =|
Yeah. This exact same thing has happened a couple of times before. Never ends well for the kid, and I'm sure the cop that shoots him down isn't gonna get over that too soon. A truly ****** situation, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the kid thought it would be funny to point the gun at the cop, just to spook him.
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I've got a propane-powered "AirSoft" ("PropaneSoft?") Colt MKIV clone that looks and hefts so realistically that I'm damned glad it does have a non-removable plastic red tip on it.
Just from currently-available information, I don't know if this incident is justifiable legally, but putting myself in the Officers' places on the overall fact pattern, and with all that's been going on with these school attacks, I can sure see it justifiable emotionally. Kid with what looks like a rifle (or, for that matter, even an adult) waves it around without muzzle training, and I can understand the "condition red" muscle reaction to it.
On the other hand, just from assorted videos I've seen, mind you, I can understand the confusion of the "suspect" under the conflicting commands hollered by the police.
"Drop the gun," "Hands in the air," "Get down on the ground," etc. all coming at once from different Officers, can result in an unthinking "Huh?" and turning-around response which would lead to those muscle-reactions. I don't know if it's procedurally possible in a tense active situation, but maybe there ought to be only one designated officer who shouts commands in situations like these.
Yeah, I know, an extra layer of complexity added on to a "situation," but it might be worth thinking about.
Terry, 230RN
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It's also possible the kid didn't believe it was really the police and might have thought it was some friends of his joking around. In which case he might have pantomimed "mowing them down" before realizing it was the real deal.
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Yea i deal with kids that age and there is really no way to tell how they might act sometimes. And i was no better at that age. Crying shame all the way round for everyone
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Even as a youngster, I never pointed toy guns at police. And by age 13 - having outgrown actual "toys" - I wasn't roaming the neighborhood with my Crosman .22 pellet gun - growing up in Chicago, my marksmanship training was limited to certain limited situations. (Which probably still would have put me in hot water if found out.)
As for the red muzzle plug . . . as a kid, that would have been discarded or painted over (Magic Marker) within minutes of taking possession of the toy.
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No need to second guess the police. They all got to go home safe at the end of the day, so all is alright. :police:
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The painted tips are only required to be imported into the US, the law ends there.
Wrong.
Remember, we have fifty states plus the District of Columbia. Each state has its own laws.
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It's also possible the kid didn't believe it was really the police and might have thought it was some friends of his joking around. In which case he might have pantomimed "mowing them down" before realizing it was the real deal.
Or the police yelled "PUT DOWN THE GUN" and he didn't think he was carrying a gun (after all, it's just a toy, right?) so he didn't realize they were yelling at him ...
Maybe?
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Could be. We will never know
Wonder what if any training about guns kid had. Makes me glad my kids are pretty careful. Even with the guns on the wii
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http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Andy-Lopez-Family-to-File-Federal-Lawsuit-Claiming-Violation-of-Fourth-Amendment-230501401.html (http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Andy-Lopez-Family-to-File-Federal-Lawsuit-Claiming-Violation-of-Fourth-Amendment-230501401.html)
The parents of a 13-year-old Santa Rosa boy killed by a sheriff's deputy who thought the airsoft rifle he was carrying was real has filed a lawsuit over their son's death, claiming the deputy who shot him used excessive force and had a history of "reckless" acts.
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I have a friend who is heavily into airsofts. He has mostly all pistols, but even the meddle-grade ones are indistinguishable for a real firearm at even five feet away. He sent me one to look at once. It was an airsoft copy of a Wilson Combat 1911, and with the red muzzle cover removed (which he did immediately), there was no way to know it wasn't a real 1911 without handling it.
The red tips are required by law, but they are useless. The kids all take the red off so their toys will look real, and the gang bangers paint the muzzles of their Glocks red hoping the cops will think it's an airsoft. It a lose-lose situation all around, IMHO. They are fun to play with, but parents should NOT allow their kids to take them off their own property, or to play with them in the front yard where they can be seen from the street. It sucks, but this case illustrates the consequences.
Tips are required for SALE - not, most places, for possession.
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http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Andy-Lopez-Family-to-File-Federal-Lawsuit-Claiming-Violation-of-Fourth-Amendment-230501401.html (http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Andy-Lopez-Family-to-File-Federal-Lawsuit-Claiming-Violation-of-Fourth-Amendment-230501401.html)
Why do officers always draw the firepower first, most have stun guns on their knee, there isn't a one who doesn't have a vest on. Yeah, no one wants to risk getting shot, but they all the protection and options other than the glock.
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Why do officers always draw the firepower first, most have stun guns on their knee, there isn't a one who doesn't have a vest on. Yeah, no one wants to risk getting shot, but they all the protection and options other than the glock.
The maximum range for a police-grade Taser is 25 feet. And the soft body armor worn by most patrol officers is only (barely) effective at stopping handgun rounds, it will not stop a rifle bullet -- not even a 7.62x39.
I am quite certain that there is no police department anywhere in the world that trains to counter an AK-47 with a Taser.
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I'd love to see cops required to wear some sort of video camera, along with a similar thing on ALL of their weapons. With the feed automatically streamed to Youtube or something. Come on fellas, if you have nothing to hide why is this an issue?? >:D
Welcome to being a public servant, thin blue line my ass.
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The maximum range for a police-grade Taser is 25 feet. And the soft body armor worn by most patrol officers is only (barely) effective at stopping handgun rounds, it will not stop a rifle bullet -- not even a 7.62x39.
I am quite certain that there is no police department anywhere in the world that trains to counter an AK-47 with a Taser.
I see your point with the AK, but it doesn't matter the situation, the first thing the police do is pull the nuke option. I don't know about other places, but officers in Reno have to wear body armor capable of stopping a bullet from their own weapon.
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I see your point with the AK, but it doesn't matter the situation, the first thing the police do is pull the nuke option. I don't know about other places, but officers in Reno have to wear body armor capable of stopping a bullet from their own weapon.
I'm sure the regulation is to stop a round from their own duty handgun. The AK-47 7.62x39 round is not an especially high-powered cartridge, as rifle cartridges go, but just about any rifle cartridge will penetrate soft body armor. To stop rifles you need trauma plates, and trauma plates are too uncomfortable to wear all day, every day for regular patrol duty.
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I see your point with the AK, but it doesn't matter the situation, the first thing the police do is pull the nuke option.
If you were in charge of training police what would you train them to do?
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If you were in charge of training police what would you train them to do?
Shoot anyone who makes a threatening gesture, it matters little if another piece of cattle dies. Bad shoot? No big deal, there are no 'bad shoots' just 'less good' shoots, its why we have a police union lawyers for.
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Interestingly enough oleg knows the shooter and posted on facebook about him/it.
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If you were in charge of training police what would you train them to do?
Probably what Brimic says, shoot the cattle. Then stress that a bad shoot will result in the Police Chief disowning you, the Mayor disowning you and you'll be hung out to dry till the furor subsides. Just look at it as a paid vacation.
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Need to train kids about how to handle both guns and encounters with the cops. We've been told that the kid was told the cops were there
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