Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AmbulanceDriver on October 28, 2013, 11:03:52 PM
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Got home from work tonight..... SWMBO is down visiting her sister in Phoenix.... I let the dog out, kick up the thermostat from the daytime "low" setting.... Hear the draft inducer kick on, move around the house for a bit.... Pause for a bit thinking, "man, it's taking a long time for the blower to kick on...." right about when the draft inducer kick off. What the frack?
Head out to the garage, and smell a hint of NG..... Double what the frack??????
Open up the garage door, air everything out for about five minutes. Shut the breaker for the furnace off and back on to reset everything.... Bump the thermostat back up and head back out to the garage to look at the furnace during the startup.... Draft inducer, check.... Hear the igniter relay kick on, and then the gas valve.... Hrm.... No glow from the igniter.....
FRACK!
And of course, it's on the coldest night so far this season.
I'd already taken tomorrow off because I was sick. Good thing, cause I'll be calling the local furnace guy first thing in the morning.... I'm guessing since I heard all the relays, etc, that it's just the igniter. I hope.
Now I've got a big fire going in the fireplace (*really* wishing we'd gotten the insert we were looking at last season!) and a small little electric forced air heater that will be going in the bedroom tonight.
Frack.
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I didn't tell you this, but if you have a failed hot surface ceramic igniter, you can totally light it by hand with one of those long reach lighter. You have to light it off at the right point in the cycle, and it won't (of course) relight automatically....
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I didn't tell you this, but if you have a failed hot surface ceramic igniter, you can totally light it by hand with one of those long reach lighter. You have to light it off at the right point in the cycle, and it won't (of course) relight automatically....
The furnace in my bachelor pad has a habit of going through igniters a few times a winter, so I kept a propane torch handy by the furnace for lighting it manually as needed.
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Nick, I figured that i could probably have that, but by the point in time I thought about doing it, I'd already had a couple fingers of Old Overholt, and decided that I probably shouldn't blow my house up while SWMBO is on vacation.... :D
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Nick, I figured that i could probably have that, but by the point in time I thought about doing it, I'd already had a couple fingers of Old Overholt, and decided that I probably shouldn't blow my house up while SWMBO is on vacation.... :D
My good man; that's the best time to do it! =D
Honestly, manually igniting a furnace is not a big deal but I can certainly understand a healthy respect for combustion appliances.
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Are the ceramic igniters pretty much universal, or are they pretty manufacturer specific?
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Are the ceramic igniters pretty much universal, or are they pretty manufacturer specific?
I'm still pretty green in the HVAC game, [Jim, Ron, 280 feel free to hop in] but it seems to me there are a few variations, but they are very much commodity goods. Any HVAC company should have no difficulty finding an appropriate one for you, they are very common items at the supply houses from third party manufacturers.
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Thanks.... Watched some vids on replacing it, Once I have daylight tomorrow (garage lights and furnace are on same circuit) and more blood in my alcohol system, I'll take a look at the igniter and see if it's something I can safely (and easily) tackle or if I want to pay someone to tackle it.
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Wow, I'm surprised that the garage lighting is on the same circuit.
Phoenix uses the 2011 NEC code. From that code section 422, subsection 12 states:
Central Heating Equipment. Central heating
equipment other than fixed electric space-heating equip-
ment shall be supplied by an individual branch circuit.
Now, perhaps they were able to slide by suggesting that the garage lighting was the required luminaire noted in the international mechanical code, but I think that only applies to equipment under floors and in attics.
Guess who's been studying code to take the test for a master mechanical license? :angel:
Anyway, let us know how it goes of if there's anything we can help with!
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oh dude.... the sheer # of electrical code violations on this house is mindboggling. we've been gradually working on cleaning things up as we can, but we're to the point where we really have to pretty much redo the electrical to get things fixed... not just the lights, but the whole garage is on the same breaker as the furnace. granted, being a gas furnace it doesn't have a huge electrical draw, but............
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Nick, I figured that i could probably have that, but by the point in time I thought about doing it, I'd already had a couple fingers of Old Overholt, and decided that I probably shouldn't blow my house up while SWMBO is on vacation.... :D
You'd rather blow it up while she's in it?
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What happened to the good old fashioned pilot light?
My NG furnace hasn't been on in over two years.
http://www.heatilatorecochoice.com/products/details.asp?cat=wood-stoves&f=WS22 (http://www.heatilatorecochoice.com/products/details.asp?cat=wood-stoves&f=WS22)
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Nice too have an alternate heat source. =D
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the coldest night so far this season
So it got below 50 degrees in Portland ??? :lol:
Our main heat is the woodstove. The electric baseboards are backup.
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Woke up this morning and holy crap the house was cold..... 56 inside..... 30 out there..... Decided that now was as good a time as any to see if I was gonna blow myself up manually igniting the furnace.....
It's now 67 and climbing inside...... MUCH better. Once I get it to a comfy temp in here, I'll pull the old igniter and start making some calls.
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Hoooray! Heat! Without holding a flame in the furnace to start it!
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Did you replace the igniter or did it just re-light?
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Replaced igniter - it had a fairly significant crack in it.
Ran into an interesting issue while trying to get a replacement - most of the HVAC parts places would *only* sell to a licensed HVAC contractor. Finally found one place that would sell to a homeowner. Most of them claimed it was an insurance/liability thing, saying that if I blew myself up, they didn't want me to come back and sue them for selling me the part that let me blow myself up.
An interesting argument - I suspect it has more to do with a bit of collusion between them and the furnace repair guys. I mean why would I pay the local HVAC guy $100 for the part (which, by the way, the one shop that sells to the public sold me for $50) and then another $150 for him to install it if I could just get the part myself and pop it in there.
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Ran into an interesting issue while trying to get a replacement - most of the HVAC parts places would *only* sell to a licensed HVAC contractor. Finally found one place that would sell to a homeowner. Most of them claimed it was an insurance/liability thing, saying that if I blew myself up, they didn't want me to come back and sue them for selling me the part that let me blow myself up.
An interesting argument - I suspect it has more to do with a bit of collusion between them and the furnace repair guys. I mean why would I pay the local HVAC guy $100 for the part (which, by the way, the one shop that sells to the public sold me for $50) and then another $150 for him to install it if I could just get the part myself and pop it in there.
We do need to feed our family.
The part stores hate the returns from homeowners guessing at the problems and throwing parts at it or shorting a part out falling to kill power to the unit. They get enough of that from some of the "techs". I had a few of that type work for me over the years.
With APS members being smarter than the average bear, I do sell parts if you talk to me about the problem and don't mind waiting for UPS.
jim
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yeah, normally don't mind waiting for the big brown truck o' happiness, but since my house was 56 degrees inside this morning, figured needed the part sooner rather than later.... And trust me, there's times I'm more than willing to pay for the expertise. I might grumble about paying for it, but if I don't know what I'm doing, I'm all for hiring someone who does. But since this was one screw and one plug, plus I confirmed that everything else appeared to be working by manually igniting the furnace..... I'll gladly save the $200... :D
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Sorry I'm getting here late to the game. I've been out fixing furnaces and hanging pipe. First off, I never considered lighting the things manually before but I guess if you time it right it's no big deal. I'll say it's a little
of both on the why some stores won't sell you parts. There is a liability issue with the whole natural gas/especially propane explody thing. Plus, I just ran into it. Smarter than average customer went to the same supplier I did to get the same part I had already gotten for him. The only thing that saved me was I got the last one they had about 2 hours before he went in there. heh heh hehhhhh,,, They quoted him less than I did so I lost $30 on the deal or he was just going to wait till the next day and not buy the one I had. I told him that was fine but if he installed it himself (logic board, lots of wires) and he screwed it up he was in big trouble. And like Jim said, we have to make money too. He thought about it and offered my $30 less than my original quote and I said screw it and took it. Which, incidentally, is why I hate residential. Commercial is cut and dry. Send them the bill and then a check arrives in the mail a few weeks later. So I guess my residential rates should go up so that I have room to get haggled down. lol
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Ohhhh, I forgot, your enemy is most likely moisture. Those things suck up moisture over the off season and if they are excessively "wet" the first time they go on again all the moisture turns to steam and fractures them from within. They are also rather fragile. They DO seem to have made strides in this area though because I see less of them failing these days. Some used to do it every year. When you do change them out be careful to not touch the element. The oils and acids on your fingers will also cause them to fail prematurely. This is all hearsay of course. "Scuttlebutt" lol
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Last winter, my furnace quit when the outside temp was below zero (of course that's when it happens!) and I thought it was the thermocouple. The temperature inside the house was was in the high 30's. As I wasn't sure what thermocouple to buy, or where to buy one, I decided to call a local HVAC repair company, which due to high demand (furnaces break when it's real cold, AC's break when it's real hot) could not get anyone out till the next day (the furnace quit about mid day).
As it turned out, I made a good decision. The tech found that the regulator outside the house was frozen up, restricting the gas flow to the furnace, causing it to shut down whenever it tried to start. He did replace the thermocouple, plus repair the regulator and charged me $118, which I was more than happy to pay.
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280, we've actually been running the furnace a bit already this season, so it wasn't a moisture issue.... But yeah, the guy at the shop was very specific not to touch the element, not to bump it on anything, in fact don't even look at it wrong, or it will break. :) Kinda reminds me of changing the bulbs in the different spot/floodlights at my old church. You could always tell when someone managed to touch the bulb while swapping it because it would blow up as soon as it got powered on.
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We do need to feed our family.
So do we, which is often why we try to fix the simple things ourselves.
If I had had the knowledge, I would have done the necessary work on my mother's boiler last year when the company in town was blatanatly ripping her off, all the while screaming that her boiler is obsolete, a death trap, and needs to be replaced immediately (for $15,000).
She managed to find a semi-retired independent who did what the other company didn't, and returned the critter to flawless operation for about $1,000.
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Just remember, if you do all the little stuff yourself and we can't make a living we might not be there when you really do need us.
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Just remember, if you do all the little stuff yourself and we can't make a living we might not be there when you really do need us.
I hire you guys to do the annual inspection/cleanout of my boiler.
If I had had the knowledge, I would have done the necessary work on my mother's boiler last year when the company in town was blatanatly ripping her off, all the while screaming that her boiler is obsolete, a death trap, and needs to be replaced immediately (for $15,000).
She managed to find a semi-retired independent who did what the other company didn't, and returned the critter to flawless operation for about $1,000.
Unfortuantly there's no 'fixing' a cracked boiler, though I got the replacement for closer to $10k due to my using the government system and getting 3 bids. =(
Since then I've been tossing the company that installed it the annual cleaning/maintenance jobs. I've looked at wood/pellet, but I'm just not in the house enough to make that make sense, maybe once I've retired.
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That's all I ask. :)
By the same token if you DON'T call me to service your stuff don't expect I'll jump out of bed at 3 am and come running to make your stuff work again. Or Saturday afternoon after you've already been trying to fix it yourself for 3 days. =|
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By the same token if you DON'T call me to service your stuff don't expect I'll jump out of bed at 3 am and come running to make your stuff work again. Or Saturday afternoon after you've already been trying to fix it yourself for 3 days. =|
Dad is one of the world's worst about stuff like that. Truck is making a clattery-clunky noise? Hey, it still gets him where he wants to go so no need to deal with it now while it's convenient and probably an easy and relatively inexpensive fix. The time to worry about it is at 11:00 on a Saturday night when you are stranded in the middle of nowhere because the water pump bearing finally completely failed, letting the fan take a joyride into the radiator. Oh, and don't forget to not replace (or even carry a spare for) the blown power socket fuse that would let you use the phone you didn't put on the charger last night.
Cost to fix the water pump AND replace the ruined radiator after the bearing let go? $900
Walking across backwoods ranch country, at midnight, in the mud, getting to the highway to flag someone down? Eight miles and four miserable hours in a drizzling rain.
The gleeful joy my brother and I have reminding him of it when he keeps doing the same kind of thing? Over? And Over? And Over? Priceless!
What would it have cost to replace the water pump when it began making noise? $150 for parts and couple hours in a comfy air-conditioned shop. (The same shop he spend most of the time in any way, puttering around working on his Model A.)
Sometime when you need a good laugh I'll tell you about the documentation packet left inside their home's HVAC blower cage. For a couple years.
Brad
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Just remember, if you do all the little stuff yourself and we can't make a living we might not be there when you really do need us.
Which explains why you haven't answered my private message. :D
Actually, if we keep bouncing checks on you because we can't afford the prices for the little stuff, what difference would there be...
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Or Saturday afternoon after you've already been trying to fix it yourself for 3 days. =|
Do you have the special "handed me a box of pre-dissasemled parts" surcharge? :D
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Do you have the special "handed me a box of pre-dissasemled parts" surcharge? :D
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LOL Actually that would just fall under the umbrella of the all encompassing "Pain in the ass" surcharge. Which is not quite as bad as the "Mercedes, Beemer, Lincloln, FRIGGIN BENTLEY, or some such in the garage" surcharge. >:D
:lol:
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How about the "That's not how they did it on HGTV!" surcharge? Second only to the "I have a PhD in Engineering!" surcharge, of course.
Brad
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Oh yes
Engineers joined airline pilots and lobbyists on the "special list"
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Yes,there's not much I like better than making senior aerospace engineers feel dumb.
Meanwhile, I had a pilot come into the range the other day.You know how I know he was a pilot? He told me. ;)
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HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEY
Remember this thread?
Time for an update.... It's been an excitable weekend here at Casa Driver....
Some of you may have seen it on the book of faces.
Well, Thursday night, SWMBO was out running a couple of errands out with the girls, and I was working on dinner. Well, a couple minutes in, I hear the smoke alarm start to go off down the hall. Not my cooking, so I shut the stove off and go figure out what the heck is going on. No visible smoke, so I hit the hush button, since I'm thinking maybe it was steam or something - not really likely, but that was the first guess. Start to walk away, and it starts going again. Hrm, says I, this is odd... So I turn around, and sure enough, I'm starting to smell something - smells like a hot electrical element or similar. And now I'm seeing a light haze of smoke under the cold air return (wasn't obvious that this was the source, but that's where it was kinda hanging).
Crap.
Grab the dog, call 911 as I'm walking out the door, and toss him in the truck while I wait for the cavalry to arrive. Well, I learned something interesting that night about how Clackamas Fire District handles things. Let's just say, they're "proactive". Portland fire, smoke in a structure, as long as it's not heavy black smoke, they send a single engine company to investigate. Clackamas, oh, they send a full box. Three engine companies, a truck company, and a batt chief. Well, at least the neighbors are entertained.
So they get here, do their thing, thermal imaging cameras on everything, send the junior man up into my attic with a TIC, yada yada. About thirty minutes later, they give the all clear. Talking to the captain from the first in company, and he's explaining everything they checked, and what they found, didn't find, etc. And he says that from what he was smelling, he's thinking it's the furnace.
Next morning, call the furnace company out. They get a tech out here couple hours after my call (first really good sign I'm gonna like this company) and he digs right in. Starts running tests on the furnace, checking everything out. 'Bout an hour later, he gives the verdict.
First off, this furnace is 27 years old. I knew it was old, just didn't realize it was *that* old. Lasted 7-9 years longer than what they normally last.
Main blower motor is on the way out - in fact, that's what caused the smoke in the cold air return. Motor locked up, overheated, and let the magic smoke out. He was able to get it going again by manually spinning it as it was trying to start up, but who knows when it's going to lock up again.
Draft inducer motor has at least one bearing going bad.
Heat exchanger tubes overheated due to the burners going with the blower locked up. Embrittled, eroded, unknown how much life is left in them (27 years old, remember, so probably not that much life left in them to begin with).
Pressure limit switch is toast. Totally dead. He tried cleaning it and tested it again, no go. So now the board won't signal the igniter to go and the gas valve to open even with the blower motor turning again.
He looks at me, and gives me the news. He likes fixing things. He wants to fix it - but he feels that our furnace just isn't fixable - at least not in a really feasible manner. Easily 2 grand to fix everything that's wrong with this thing. And that's with no real guarantee that something won't fail soon - and doesn't include replacing the heat exchanger, either....
So we set up an appointment to talk new furnaces... Cause not only is this thing old, it's an 80% efficient model (when it was first installed) and probably has lost some of that to boot over the last 27 years. Tech ballparked it was probably around 70%, maybe even worse.
We retreated to my in-laws for the weekend since we didn't have heat, and the house was getting downright chilly. Space heaters can only do so much.
And tomorrow, we get our brand spanking new, 96% efficient unit installed. Including a brush through duct cleaning for the entire hot and cold system in the house, we're looking at just under 7 grand installed. We could have saved a couple grand by going with another 80% unit, but realistically, I figure we're gonna be saving money in a few years based on the difference in price and efficiency.
Another plus with this company - we're sitting here discussing options with the sales guy Friday night, and he glances over and sees my work jacket hanging on a hook. "You a first responder?" "Well, I was in the field for a number of years, and now I'm in dispatch." "Ok, we'll I'm gonna give you our 5% first responder discount then." You know he didn't have to do that. Didn't even have to mention it - and we had no idea they even offered that. But he spoke up and told us about it. Was a right nice thing for him to do for us.
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I just don't charge enough.
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It would be one heck of a long call for you to come out here to Portland, OR, too... :D
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I had a 90-something percent efficient furnace with a single-speed blower (less than 96%, 93 maybe?) and a normal efficiency water heater installed in 2015. I think it was about $3500 for all of it.
The old furnace was still doing just fine, it was the water heater that went out, and they were vented together. Decided the furnace was overdue so I replaced both of them; I sure like the new furnace.
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er. I hope.
Now I've got a big fire going in the fireplace (*really* wishing we'd gotten the insert we were looking at last season!)
Did you ever get the fireplace insert. I regret not getting mine 20 years ago....
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Did you ever get the fireplace insert. I regret not getting mine 20 years ago....
Nope, Mrs was stuck on a pellet stove insert (and I want regular wood burning). I think between this and last winter (out of power a couple times in the middle of an unusual oregon snow storm) is going to win her to my side - especially since our furnace guy is actually getting rid of his pellet stoves to go wood burning.
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I'd go wood or coal...
If I had a place to store wood or coal.
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I'd go wood or coal...
If I had a place to store wood or coal.
I understand wood, because it being something you can more or less acquire yourself, but why coal if pellet isn't good enough? Both require someone else's supply line. I would think coal is more troublesome to acquire than pellet in most areas of the country. I can't say I've ever known anyone to heat with coal except you.
Chris
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I keep wanting to get a kerosene heater because I have fond memories about warming up by one during the winter as a kid. Maybe the same kind of reason for Mike?
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Who said pellets aren't good enough? I'm looking at pellet stoves because I'm here. Were I back in Pennsylvania, where coal is plentiful and cheap, especially anthracite, I'd be going with that.
There are advantages and drawbacks to all of them.
You are correct that the farther you get from where coal is mined, the more expensive and difficult it is to get it. That's why I'm not considering a coal stove now (not to mention the fact that they need a chiminey, and a pellet stove doesn't).
You can acquire wood yourself IF you have the resources to do so -- land or access to wood lots. Otherwise, you pay someone for it -- someone else's supply line.
Wood also tends to be one hell of a lot more labor intensive -- cutting, splitting, stacking.
Coal is a highly concentrated form of heat, especially anthracite.
A cord of good hardwood has about 24 million BTU, and takes up a space of 4 feet by 4 feet by 8 feet, or 128 cubic feet.
A ton of anthracite stove coal has about 28 million BTU per ton. But in that same 4x4x8 foot space you can put nearly 3.5 tons of coal.
You also forget that I grew up in Pennsylvania -- coal capital of the world, and one of the largest sources of anthracite coal in the world. I knew more than a few people who still heated with coal when I was a kid, either in furnaces or with batch stoves, so I'm more than used to it.
Anthracite coal has some other significant advantages over wood. Its far more clean burning, producing virtually no smoke or soot. And chimney fires, a distinct possibility with wood, are non-existent with coal, because coal creates no creosote.
And most batch feed coal burning stoves only need to be tended twice a day, as opposed to 3 or more times a day for wood. Not a big difference, no.
One of the big drawbacks to coal is that it produces a lot more ash than wood, and unlike wood ash, that you can generally spread on lawns and gardens, coal ash is something you have to dispose of.
This is from 1982, but it's an interesting article. https://www.csmonitor.com/1982/1028/102831.html
It is worth noting that 1982 was the height of the gypsy moth caterpillar kill in the east, and the state of Pennsylvania was begging people to take permits to cut dead standing trees because of the fear of fires. More than a few people I knew were able to timber off enough maple, oak, and ash in 2 or 3 summers that the were able to heat their homes for the better part of a decade.
That's no longer the case. Permits are expensive and highly restrictive.
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I figured you were moving away from pellets since that is normally in your list of stoves you're going to buy. I didn't forget you grew up in PA, you remind us every opportunity you get. :P However, I did not assume the home coal market and infrastructure of 40 years ago is still in place today.
I'm aware of the thermal benefits of coal, but not living anywhere where coal was commonly used, it always seemed unusual and exotic as a fuel source (even in SW VA where coal is more common geographically). Coal as a household fuel was something you saw in the movies, not at your neighbor's house. With the downturn in the coal industry, I wonder how long it will remain a viable fuel source even in PA.
Chris
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"I figured you were moving away from pellets since that is normally in your list of stoves you're going to buy."
Didn't mean to give that impression. As long as I'm down here in Virginia and in my current house, I'm only looking wood pellets.
"I didn't forget you grew up in PA, you remind us every opportunity you get."
You'd better not, or you rue the day! Go ahead, start ruing!
"However, I did not assume the home coal market and infrastructure of 40 years ago is still in place today."
That's a really hard question to answer effectively.
Post World War II there was a massive move to convert from coal to oil-fired home heating because of the convenience. Often this involved simply sticking a oil burner gun into the existing coal boiler or furnace. That's how they did it in the home I grew up in. Generally inefficient as all hell, but when heating oil is 8 cents a gallon (roughly what it was in 1947-48, or about 83 cents in today's money), plus not having to shovel coal and ash, you jump on it.
The house my Dad grew up in (my Mom's house in Lewistown) kept the coal boiler until about 1959 when Dad and Grandpa put in an oil unit.
But not everyone converted. As I said, a lot of people I knew when I was growing up still had coal furnaces, coal cookstoves, and coal parlor stoves.
Coal dealers still existed to service those customers. There weren't as many coal dealers, they didn't service as many customers, but they were still there, and most often they had also branched out into home heating oil delivery to make up for the loss in coal customers.
Then came the Arab oil embargos of the 1970s and 1980s. Those people who heated with coal were in a much better position when some of the heating oil shortages and price spikes began to bite, and those people who were affected began to look at other methods of keeping warm.
Kerosene heaters and newly manufactured high efficiency wood and coal stoves all started hitting the market in a big way in the mid to late 1970s. Just off the top of my head I can thing of at least 2 dozen families in my circle of friends and acquaintances who installed alternate heating devices, and many of them installed either coal stoves, or combination wood-coal stoves.
A quick google search reveals that there are at least 30 coal dealers within a 100 mile radius of where I grew up, and there are at least 3 in or near the town where Mom's house is.
And that's just loose coal, delivered by the ton.
That doesn't include bagged rice coal, which is used in stoker stoves that operate very similarly to pellet stoves.
Given the continuing rise in home heating costs with oil, I think you're going to see coal be a viable heating medium for a long time, at least in areas where coal is readily available.
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I'm more than likely going to put a pellet stove in my basement rec room in a few years. I just want something I can turn on in the evening or weekends for supplemental heat in the basement. Turn on the furnace fan and circulate throughout the house.
I'd like to put in my three season porch, but it is 250 sq feet and I think I would roast myself out there. I may get a the smallest pellet stove and leave the door to the house open when I'm running it.
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You'd be better off putting the pellet stove in your basement. If you can, there are more than a few models that you can plum right into your heating system.
What do you have, oil or gas?
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You'd be better off putting the pellet stove in your basement. If you can, there are more than a few models that you can plum right into your heating system.
What do you have, oil or gas?
Natural Gas, I'm going to put in a gas insert into my fireplace in time. I have the 1950's Frank Lloyd Wright knockoff wall of roman brick fireplace.
I want to do two separate pellet stoves, the basement one is going to be a stand alone unit in the rec room.
3 season porch will be a separate heat source in time. I need to replace the windows first before I do anything, eventually going to make it a lounge area because it offers a nice view of the "lake" I live on.
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If I had natural gas heating, instead of a heat pump, I wouldn't even be considering another form of heat.
You'd be MUCH better off to go with a small gas stove or other kind of heater, either vented or vent free, in the 8-10K BTU range than to try to put a pellet stove. You could go something like this:
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664970_200664970?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Heaters,%20Stoves%20%2B%20Fireplaces%20%3E%20Dual-Fuel:%20Gas%20%2B%20Propane%20Heaters&utm_campaign=Pleasant%20Hearth%20Warming&utm_content=52646&gclid=Cj0KCQiA7dHSBRDEARIsAJhAHwj3qJWXzTTZhT7aGjXk1_AxaF27yncxrQoeCiFTXCkAmVPxrQ8KrFcaAvG1EALw_wcB
Far cheaper than a pellet stove.
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Growing up in the 90's in NJ a house I lived in we had NG but also a wood/coal stove that we used A LOT.
I hated the damn thing. Mainly because I had to lug buckets of coal from the basement to the stove. Other than that it was pretty nice though...
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"I hated the damn thing. Mainly because I had to lug buckets of coal from the basement to the stove. Other than that it was pretty nice though..." :rofl:
You had it easy!
When I was growing up I spent a lot of time with a good friend mine. They lived in an old stone house built around 1815. It was three levels. They had TWO coal stoves, one on the ground floor, and one the second, and we had to lug 5 gallon buckets of coal to the house from the coal bin back beside the barn, a good 100 yards away.
One year either they couldn't get anthracite, or decided to go cheap, and bought a couple of tons of soft coal. To this day the Dad admits that it was one of the worst things he ever did. Didn't give off nearly as much heat, was FAR dirtier, and stank like mad.
I'm not sure, but I think they simply switched over to wood for the bulk of that year.
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If I had natural gas heating, instead of a heat pump, I wouldn't even be considering another form of heat.
You'd be MUCH better off to go with a small gas stove or other kind of heater, either vented or vent free, in the 8-10K BTU range than to try to put a pellet stove. You could go something like this:
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664970_200664970?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Heaters,%20Stoves%20%2B%20Fireplaces%20%3E%20Dual-Fuel:%20Gas%20%2B%20Propane%20Heaters&utm_campaign=Pleasant%20Hearth%20Warming&utm_content=52646&gclid=Cj0KCQiA7dHSBRDEARIsAJhAHwj3qJWXzTTZhT7aGjXk1_AxaF27yncxrQoeCiFTXCkAmVPxrQ8KrFcaAvG1EALw_wcB
Far cheaper than a pellet stove.
I don't have a big enough service to add anything other than a gas fireplace to what I have. I have a NG Furnace, Water heater and Clothes Drier. I am adding a gas range when I get to remodeling the kitchen. Plus I would have to run a crazy amount of black iron to reach the rec room and especially the 3 season porch. Gas meter is in the SW corner of the house, 3 season room is in the NE corner. My house footprint is 75' long and 28' wide.
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I can't recommend enough to get an insert or stove. Wood or pellet doesn't matter, get what works for you. The difference in type of heat and potential cost savings make the investment very worth while.
I'm surprised Rev hasn't chimed in here. I know he has pellet furnace and was fairly happy with it.
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Don't mess with the black pope to plumb it go with CSST. Wish I would have been using it a few years ago when I switched a bunch of houses in town over to NG.
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CSST?
I've been toying with the idea of putting an NG fireplace or heater on my 1st floor (above ground, on slab). That floor is not true living space, mainly garage, foyer, and an unfinished area we refer to as "the basement" (laundry, storage, and my shop). The thermostat is on the 2nd floor, so this 1st floor area gets cold in the winter. We use the kerosene heater to warm it when we feel the need, but since we have NG service to the house (heat, water, and cooking), it seems running a line to the foyer for one of those wall-mount heaters would work well. Maybe even put one in the foyer and one in the "basement" for spot heating as needed.
Chris
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I just don't charge enough.
Yeaaaa... We both have that problem.
CSST?
Corrugated stainless steel tubing. It is to gas pipe what PEX is to water pipe. Flexible, easier to install.
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"Don't mess with the black pope"
It's NEVER a good idea to mess with the black pope. He'll excommunicate your sorry ass in a heart beat. :rofl:
Oddly enough, I was watching This Old House last night where they were talking about extending the natural gas service on a home remodel. They were using the black iron pipe, but were showing a new way of making the connections.
The old way was to thread the pipe on a power threader, then make your connections. Time consuming, and the power threader is a substantial investment.
There are new fittings out that use a power compression tool to press the fitting onto the iron pipe. The fittings are gasketed to prevent leakage. The only thing you have to do is measure and cut the run pipe, and that can be done with a hacksaw. A huge savings in time, and the tools you need are far less expensive.
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https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664970_200664970?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Heaters,%20Stoves%20%2B%20Fireplaces%20%3E%20Dual-Fuel:%20Gas%20%2B%20Propane%20Heaters&utm_campaign=Pleasant%20Hearth%20Warming&utm_content=52646&gclid=Cj0KCQiA7dHSBRDEARIsAJhAHwj3qJWXzTTZhT7aGjXk1_AxaF27yncxrQoeCiFTXCkAmVPxrQ8KrFcaAvG1EALw_wcB
Far cheaper than a pellet stove.
I like the stove, but running gas to it would be a bear. I briefly thought about propane but the 100# minimum size might be hard to hide in my yard. I can buy propane less than a 1/4 mile from my house, but still trying to hide a 100# tank.
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I like the stove, but running gas to it would be a bear. I briefly thought about propane but the 100# minimum size might be hard to hide in my yard. I can buy propane less than a 1/4 mile from my house, but still trying to hide a 100# tank.
Put the tank in the basement or on the porch !!!!
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Put the tank in the basement or on the porch !!!!
Basement bad, LP is heavier than air. Leaks don't end well.
3 season porch is on a slab, shares the long wall with a 2 car garage and a short wall with the living room. I have 4' between the north window wall and the neighbor's fence, just enough room for the riding mower. East window wall faces my lake.
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Put the tank in the basement or on the porch !!!!
If you put it on the porch you can snuggle it right up beside the stove. The heat from the stove will help keep pressure up on those cold Iowa days...
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Oh, and don't hide the tank... decorate it!
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I like the stove, but running gas to it would be a bear. I briefly thought about propane but the 100# minimum size might be hard to hide in my yard. I can buy propane less than a 1/4 mile from my house, but still trying to hide a 100# tank.
If you are paying for propane by the pound, you are paying way too much. A 20# tank will hold 4.7 gallons and costs (around here) about $22. By the gallon, it's about $10. We have a 500 gallon tank at the new house, which holds 375 gallons (they'll only fill it to 75%) Propane over the last two years has been between $2.15 to $2.50 per gallon. Our tank rental is $50 per year.
On the wood stove, we bought a Vermont Castings Encore in 1994, when we bought the old house, and used about three cords a year for 23 years. We just refurbished and repainted it a couple months ago and installed it in the new house. It's amazing how that little stove heats this 4800 sq ft house! We use wood, but we have 40 acres of river bottom, so the wood is essentially free. The Encore sells now for about $3,500 and is catalytic, so it's over 80% efficient and gives off very little smoke. I think the stove is a little cheaper the farther east you go (we're in Colorado).
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Vermont Castings was sold a number of years ago and the new owner instituted a series of "improvements" (cost cutting) measures.
The customer satisfaction and quality reviews, which had always been about the best in the industry, plunged for a number of years....
OK, the company's been sold again, and closed one of its assembly plants, but at least its reputation is recovering.
I've always found their stoves to be particularly attractive.
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If you are paying for propane by the pound, you are paying way too much. A 20# tank will hold 4.7 gallons and costs (around here) about $22. By the gallon, it's about $10. We have a 500 gallon tank at the new house, which holds 375 gallons (they'll only fill it to 75%) Propane over the last two years has been between $2.15 to $2.50 per gallon. Our tank rental is $50 per year.
On the wood stove, we bought a Vermont Castings Encore in 1994, when we bought the old house, and used about three cords a year for 23 years. We just refurbished and repainted it a couple months ago and installed it in the new house. It's amazing how that little stove heats this 4800 sq ft house! We use wood, but we have 40 acres of river bottom, so the wood is essentially free. The Encore sells now for about $3,500 and is catalytic, so it's over 80% efficient and gives off very little smoke. I think the stove is a little cheaper the farther east you go (we're in Colorado).
I buy it by the gallon, I have two LP heaters that I use ice fishing, in the deer blind and in the garage as needed. I have 2 20# tanks and a 11# tank. Smaller LP tanks are measured as lbs of propane.
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Oh, and don't hide the tank... decorate it!
I live in a little more affluent neighborhood than most of town, probably 3rd level down in pecking order in town. First is the FLW area, second is the modern McMansions, then my hood. We don't have any covenants but there is a unspoken word on neatness of the outside. So much that you keep your grill in your backyard shed when not in use. Whomever designed my house and my immediate neighbors was a big fan of Frank Lloyd Wright. Next door neighbor's house a Usonian copy. Mine and my other neighbors has a lot of the lines of prairie style. Plus you can see my backyard from across the lake from the road, I can see someone bitching to city folks about a larger outdoor propane tank.
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"I live in a little more affluent neighborhood than most of town..."
So.... a sombrero and serape, then?
And don't forget the mustache!
(https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/7a26c4f5-e840-44f6-bf52-add596da9fe9_1.5884cc6de2cd6fe2fe31e33aea19ae59.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF)
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"I live in a little more affluent neighborhood than most of town..."
So.... a sombrero and serape, then?
And don't forget the mustache!
https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/7a26c4f5-e840-44f6-bf52-add596da9fe9_1.5884cc6de2cd6fe2fe31e33aea19ae59.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF
or bent over fat lady in the garden.
(https://thevinylvillage.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/1lg3fancyladybum.jpg?w=510)
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"Usonian copy"
My Subaru Forester has more storage space than a Usonian house.
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Basement bad, LP is heavier than air. Leaks don't end well.
Sure they would.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/mtxe-vnyJms/hqdefault.jpg)
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"Usonian copy"
My Subaru Forester has more storage space than a Usonian house.
So true, especially sans a basement
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Houses in my neighborhood were all built in the mid-late 1950's right at the peak of the Frank Lloyd Wright craze and copying by just about every architect in Chicago. While they are aesthetically pleasing, they are a maintenance and repair nightmare. As mechanical engineer friend of mine said, "The nicer they look, the harder they are to build." So my neighbors that have flat roofs practically live in waterfall when it rains. They've patched, repaired and/or replaced several times in the last decade or so. They building's useful life is about 60 years, whereas "regular" homes are 150-200.
I'm soooooo glad I just have a "regular" ranch.
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Houses in my neighborhood were all built in the mid-late 1950's right at the peak of the Frank Lloyd Wright craze and copying by just about every architect in Chicago. While they are aesthetically pleasing, they are a maintenance and repair nightmare. As mechanical engineer friend of mine said, "The nicer they look, the harder they are to build." So my neighbors that have flat roofs practically live in waterfall when it rains. They've patched, repaired and/or replaced several times in the last decade or so. They building's useful life is about 60 years, whereas "regular" homes are 150-200.
I'm soooooo glad I just have a "regular" ranch.
I have a hip roof, so glad I don't have a flat roof where it snows as much as it does here. The FLW neighborhood here is full of maintenance problems. So glad I didn't buy a house there.
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Flat roofs on residential structures should bring a death penalty to the designer.
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Flat roofs on residential structures should bring a death penalty to the designer.
As someone who has 80,000 sq ft of them to deal with on a daily basis, I think flat roofs should be banned, period. Penalty of death isn't good enough. Include, fire, flood, plague, and being forced to lie about it being fistful's fault.
Brad
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Delete
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I understand wood, because it being something you can more or less acquire yourself, but why coal if pellet isn't good enough? Both require someone else's supply line. I would think coal is more troublesome to acquire than pellet in most areas of the country. I can't say I've ever known anyone to heat with coal except you.
Chris
A friend of mine has an exposed vein of coal on his farm. High sulfur stuff but he burns some in his shop stove.
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Yeaaaa... We both have that problem.
Corrugated stainless steel tubing. It is to gas pipe what PEX is to water pipe. Flexible, easier to install.
Easier to install because almost nobody installs it to code. It requires bonding -- but, last I knew (5 years ago) there was NO UL-approved bonding connector for attaching to CSST. When I was working as an assistant building official, we investigated a fire in a brand new house. Lightning strike in the neighborhood (off the property). Lightning followed the gas pipe into the house. CSST wasn't properly bonded, lightning jumped from the CSST to a sheet metal air duct nearby, and set the floor joist on fire. Most of the living room merged with the basement.
There's a newer version out now by one of the manufacturers that's supposed to address that issue. I haven't kept up on it. I don't like the stuff, don't trust the stuff, and would never have it in my own house.
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Easier to install because almost nobody installs it to code. It requires bonding -- but, last I knew (5 years ago) there was NO UL-approved bonding connector for attaching to CSST. When I was working as an assistant building official, we investigated a fire in a brand new house. Lightning strike in the neighborhood (off the property). Lightning followed the gas pipe into the house. CSST wasn't properly bonded, lightning jumped from the CSST to a sheet metal air duct nearby, and set the floor joist on fire. Most of the living room merged with the basement.
There's a newer version out now by one of the manufacturers that's supposed to address that issue. I haven't kept up on it. I don't like the stuff, don't trust the stuff, and would never have it in my own house.
Flash-shield. Advertises "no additional bonding".
I went through gastite training a few years ago, though I'd have to relearn it if I ever messed with the stuff. What does the IFGC have to say about it?
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Interesting discussion about bonding. That never would have occurred to me, but this thread is the first I've heard of flexible SS gas lines.
I did find this: http://www.csstsafety.com/Images/CSST-Direct-Bonding-Tech-Bulletin.pdf
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Doesn't black iron pipe require bonding, as well?
I wouldn't have thought CCST would be treated any differently.
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A friend of mine has an exposed vein of coal on his farm. High sulfur stuff but he burns some in his shop stove.
He should build a big trash fire over top of it.
Chris
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You can recert for flash shield on line takes about 30-40 minutes. I haven't installed any of it yet. I'm installing pro flex because I can get it in 25 foot sections as opposed to 250 foot I have to buy at the warehouse.
There are no codes around here but I still bond it by the book.
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Houses in my neighborhood were all built in the mid-late 1950's right at the peak of the Frank Lloyd Wright craze and copying by just about every architect in Chicago. While they are aesthetically pleasing, they are a maintenance and repair nightmare. As mechanical engineer friend of mine said, "The nicer they look, the harder they are to build." So my neighbors that have flat roofs practically live in waterfall when it rains. They've patched, repaired and/or replaced several times in the last decade or so. They building's useful life is about 60 years, whereas "regular" homes are 150-200.
I'm soooooo glad I just have a "regular" ranch.
Yep, many of FLW's designs have had long-term issues, some of them VERY significant.
You should read sometime what they've had to do to Falling Water to keep it from, well, falling into the water.
Wright also was an early proponent of in-floor radiant heating. In and of itself not a bad thing, but his original steam radiant systems were problematic to say the least. The later hot water radiant systems he designed were great... until the pipes embedded in the slabs were eaten through and the system started to leak.
Same thing happened with the Levittown houses, virtually all of which were built with copper or steel piped in floor radiant. Virtually all of those systems are now out of service because they leaked.
Additionally, they weren't insulated, so the heat loss to the ground was monumental. It used to be said that you could always tell a Levittown house that had an operating radiant heat system, because the flowers were blooming next to the house in the middle of winter.
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I knew the guy that restored the refrigerator at Falling Water.
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Interesting discussion about bonding. That never would have occurred to me, but this thread is the first I've heard of flexible SS gas lines.
I did find this: http://www.csstsafety.com/Images/CSST-Direct-Bonding-Tech-Bulletin.pdf
What that document omits is that plumbers (the people who install gas piping) are usually not electricians. But it says the bonding has to be done in accordance with the National Electrical Code. One of the NEC requirements is that all components of a system have to be listed and labeled for their use. That means whatever saddle clamp is used to attach the bonding wire to the gas piping system has to be UL listed for bonding to whatever type of pipe you're attaching to. Notice that they now say NOT to bond to the CSST itself. That's because it's too thin, and trying to tighten a saddle clamp just crushes it.
Also, one of the bonding methods listed is "directly connected to the electrical service equipment enclosure." The only people who are allowed to perform work in or on the electrical service enclosure are licensed electricians.