Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: 280plus on October 30, 2013, 12:49:18 PM
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The Navy taught me if it has threads, you lube them. So I always did. Lately I hear it's a big no no. I'm about to mess with some on the new to me Ranger (Yes, already) and I have anti seize compound. Thoughts?
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As much moisture as they're exposed to, and the torque they get, I'd say yes. Some sort of anti-seize would be good. Broken lug bolts suck.
I personally don't use any, but that's because I haven't had cause to dismount wheels recently.
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I like a little dab of anti seize. Doesn't take much, just a swipe. No runs and drips, protects against rust, and it it's durable enough to last several tire changes.
Brad
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See, I knew I wasn't nuts. Some guy told me I was nuts for lubing them nuts. But I KNEW he was the nut, not me. Although sometimes I feel like one. Cool, thanks!
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The Navy taught me if it has threads, you lube them. So I always did. Lately I hear it's a big no no.
What's the reasoning behind not lubricating lug nuts.
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The Navy taught me if it has threads, you lube them. So I always did. Lately I hear it's a big no no. I'm about to mess with some on the new to me Ranger (Yes, already) and I have anti seize compound. Thoughts?
Especially if you have aluminum wheels. Makes them a bit easier to remove, which can be pretty tough due to galvanic corrosion.
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See, I knew I wasn't nuts. Some guy told me I was nuts for lubing them nuts. But I KNEW he was the nut, not me. Although sometimes I feel like one. Cool, thanks!
Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. (I use a little grease on lug bolts if I have some handy)
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Absolutely. And now that I think of it most everyone I know lubes them in some fashion.
Sent via tapatalk
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The Navy taught me if it has threads, you lube them. So I always did. Lately I hear it's a big no no. I'm about to mess with some on the new to me Ranger (Yes, already) and I have anti seize compound. Thoughts?
Threads work by tension, not friction. I use the same copper anti seize that I use for pretty much everything else that doesn't get plain old grease. The regular size tube will darn near do a whole car.
If something absolutely won't stay tight on its own, then use Loctite. Dry threads are asking for trouble...and often can't be torqued properly in the first place.
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I don't know,I remember some rant somewhere by someone on the evils of lubing your lug nuts. Just making sure I'm on the right page. So it turns out they had some old gooey anti seize on them already so I hit them with a little spritz of the aerokroil and they works real smooooooooth now. ;)
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What's the reasoning behind not lubricating lug nuts.
Torque specs are meaningless without specifying the thread lubricant to be used. The easiest thing is to spec it with threads dry.
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Lived most of my life in a warm place with no salt on the roads (or in the water). Never lubed lug nuts and didn't have a problem. If you're up north or by the coast, probably a good idea.
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Keep in mind, what we're really after when it comes to properly secured threaded fasteners is bolt stretch. Since this is hard to measure directly, we use an indirect measurement, the torque applied to the threads to gauge this bolt stretch.
Check your spec, but torque values are often given for clean, dry threads. If you put something really slick on the threads, then torque to the clean, dry value, you will be overstretching the fastener. Depending on what you're doing, that might be okay, but it might not - if you stretch a fastener into it's plastic deformation stage, you have compromised it's integrity unless it was specifically designed to do so, for instance Torque-to-yeild fasteners that some cylinder heads have.
Personally, I use a light coat of oil on steel being threaded into steel, and anti-sieze on anything going into aluminum.
Here's a handy chart, scanned from my copy of Pocket Ref:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv282%2Fnick1911%2Ftorque_zps6199a4f2.jpg&hash=0405d21418824a59efb3878e1c0881e89125d260)
Lubricating threads is your choice, it should be fine either way IF you take the time to calculate the appropriate torque for what you've done.
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Check your spec, but torque values are often given for clean, dry threads. If you put something really slick on the threads, then torque to the clean, dry value, you will be overstretching the fastener. Depending on what you're doing, that might be okay, but it might not - if you stretch a fastener into it's plastic deformation stage, you have compromised it's integrity unless it was specifically designed to do so, for instance Torque-to-yeild fasteners that some cylinder heads have.
Personally, I use a light coat of oil on steel being threaded into steel, and anti-sieze on anything going into aluminum.
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Lubricating threads is your choice, it should be fine either way IF you take the time to calculate the appropriate torque for what you've done.
Many MANY years ago, I took a couple of months off to "see the USA" by car. Somewhere in the mid-west (Kansas, I think), I was passed by a Mustang that was really haulin' the freight. Twenty or so miles down the road, I encountered that same Mustang, sitting on the shoulder with the right rear jacked up. Turned out to be a young couple on their honeymoon, driving a fast car on bald retreads. Tire overheated and the tread departed from the carcass. Oops.
The lug nuts were rusted on so tight that the cheap wrench/jack handle had snapped. Being a former Boy Scout, I had a small tool set in my car along with a real, 4-way spanner type lug wrench. I got the lugs nuts off, put the spare on for them, and dribbled a bit of oil off his dip stick onto each lug for lubrication. They were happy and grateful.
There's a lesson in there, somewhere. I had already started using anti-sieze on lug nuts (as well as every other threaded fastener I touched, anywhere on a vehicle). This just proved why it's a good idea.
But Nick is correct. Specified torque values are for "clean, dry threads." Not rusty old threads, and certainly not threads lubricated with anti-sieze. If you can't find a specific value for lubricated threads, I generall reduce the published torque by 15% to 20%. All the vehicles I've driven for the past 50+ years have had 1/2 x 20 lug nuts. I use anti-sieze, I torque to 85 foot-pounds, and I've never stripped, sheared, or broken off a stud, and I've never had a lug nut work loose.
I ALWAYS use a lug wrench. In fact, I carry a cheap $20 Harbor Freight torque wrench and impack socket in each of my Jeeps, just in case of a flat on the road.
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Many MANY years ago, I took a couple of months off to "see the USA" by car. Somewhere in the mid-west (Kansas, I think), I was passed by a Mustang that was really haulin' the freight. Twenty or so miles down the road, I encountered that same Mustang, sitting on the shoulder with the right rear jacked up. Turned out to be a young couple on their honeymoon, driving a fast car on bald retreads. Tire overheated and the tread departed from the carcass. Oops.
The lug nuts were rusted on so tight that the cheap wrench/jack handle had snapped. Being a former Boy Scout, I had a small tool set in my car along with a real, 4-way spanner type lug wrench. I got the lugs nuts off, put the spare on for them, and dribbled a bit of oil off his dip stick onto each lug for lubrication. They were happy and grateful.
There's a lesson in there, somewhere. I had already started using anti-sieze on lug nuts (as well as every other threaded fastener I touched, anywhere on a vehicle). This just proved why it's a good idea.
But Nick is correct. Specified torque values are for "clean, dry threads." Not rusty old threads, and certainly not threads lubricated with anti-sieze. If you can't find a specific value for lubricated threads, I generall reduce the published torque by 15% to 15%. All the vehicles I've driven for the past 50+ years have had 1/2 x 20 lug nuts. I use anti-sieze, I torque to 85 foot-pounds, and I've never stripped, sheared, or broken off a stud, and I've never had a lug nut work loose.
I ALWAYS use a lug wrench. In fact, I carry a cheap $20 Harbor Freight torque wrench and impack socket in each of my Jeeps, just in case of a flat on the road.
I'm going to have to grab one myself. I had a flat a while back, and I swear to god the lug nuts had been tightened, following my last tire rotation, by the Incredible Hulk. I literally could not undo the lug nuts with the car's tool set, nor with my half-inch Craftsman socket set (no breaker bar, was the problem there...).
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The way I look at it, those tables show mostly 70-80% of "clean dry" torque. I don't think I've ever used a torque wrench on a lug nut outside a shop, (certainly never seen one included in the tire change kit that comes with any vehicle) and I've done 95% of my tire changing on a road shoulder or driveway. Any manufacturer that isn't writing in 50-200% tolerance for their lug nut torque spec, while expecting you to change a tire with the stock lug wrench is irresponsible.
I'm pretty sure most manufacturers do, having dealt with a Chevy truck lug nut spec'd at 100-150ft.lbs. that 2 hours of spritzing with PB Blaster every 15 minutes and a 4 foot cheater with a 250 pound tech jumping at the end of wasn't moving. It finally came off after a lot of rattling with the big impact, and we had them knock the studs out and mic them all; no sign of excessive stretch, and a thread chasing die spun clean right to the end of the threads.
Most of the time, my lug nut torque is "spin it until it's firm, then crank about that much on the 4-way." Never had a stud fail or lug nut loosen that I'd put on last, and never been stranded by one of mine being too tight to remove with the 4-way. Can't say the same for WalMart, which is why I now always back off and re-tighten each nut they've touched before I leave the parking lot.
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I'm going to have to grab one myself. I had a flat a while back, and I swear to god the lug nuts had been tightened, following my last tire rotation, by the Incredible Hulk. I literally could not undo the lug nuts with the car's tool set, nor with my half-inch Craftsman socket set (no breaker bar, was the problem there...).
I forgot to mention that I also NEVER allow anyone but me to work on the wheels of my vehicles. Some shops claim they use torque-limiting adapters on their air guns, but who knows if they do? And, if they do, how do we know which one they choose? If the factory spec for my Jeep is 115-foot pounds, the shop isn't going to know to reduce it because I use anti-sieze.
I also never allow anyone to work on my brakes. The last two times I did, the other party was my own brother -- who grew up being taught by the same grandfather as I did, and whose job was service manager at a BMW dealership. Guess which two brake jobs resulted in failures within a VERY short time? If I can't trust my own brother, I'm certainly not going to trust some minimum wage "dood" at Meineke, nor am I going to pay $98 an hour at the Jeep dealer.
Secondary reason for always using a torque wrench is disc brakes. Unequal torque results in warped rotors.
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See, I knew I wasn't nuts. Some guy told me I was nuts for lubing them nuts. But I KNEW he was the nut, not me. Although sometimes I feel like one. Cool, thanks!
You're such a stud
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I forgot to mention that I also NEVER allow anyone but me to work on the wheels of my vehicles. Some shops claim they use torque-limiting adapters on their air guns, but who knows if they do? And, if they do, how do we know which one they choose? If the factory spec for my Jeep is 115-foot pounds, the shop isn't going to know to reduce it because I use anti-sieze.
I also never allow anyone to work on my brakes. The last two times I did, the other party was my own brother -- who grew up being taught by the same grandfather as I did, and whose job was service manager at a BMW dealership. Guess which two brake jobs resulted in failures within a VERY short time? If I can't trust my own brother, I'm certainly not going to trust some minimum wage "dood" at Meineke, nor am I going to pay $98 an hour at the Jeep dealer.
Secondary reason for always using a torque wrench is disc brakes. Unequal torque results in warped rotors.
I had to break/replace ALL TWENTY lugs/studs on my Scion xD. :mad:
As a libertarian I should be the LAST person to say "there ought to be a law..." but I wouldn't exactly be upset if there were some sort of regulations with enough teeth that service shops were likely to actually follow them in terms of proper torque for wheels.
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Some shops claim they use torque-limiting adapters on their air guns, but who knows if they do?
They like to set them to 'ridiculous.' I've sometimes had to use a 3' pipe on the end of a breaker bar to loosen the things.
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"So help me God, I'm coming back to your shop with my lug wrench in hand if you or one of your men over-torques my wheels..." works, sometimes. :angel:
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"So help me God, I'm coming back to your shop with my lug wrench in hand if you or one of your men over-torques my wheels..." works, sometimes. :angel:
"I'll use as much force as I had to to get the nuts off"
I completely crushed the first, factory applied, oil filter off my truck in getting it off. Yes, I had to use a breaker bar on the claw type oil wrench.
I've had to jump on the bar to get lug nuts off before. Never even heard of the possibility of lubing them. One more chemical to get. Any suggestions? I've heard of anti-seize compound for aluminum, and just oil for steel on steel. What sort of oil? Grease? light machine oil?
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We always used nickel anti-seize when bolting the end bells back on our chillers, it worked quite well.
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I have worked to many, many torque specs in manuals. While I understand that torque specs can and will be written for clean, dry threads I find that to be unacceptable. Depending on the thread tolerance you are going to get the most variation in friction with everything dry. So basically a dry spec is engineering laziness. How much of your torque is friction between bolt shoulder and washer, or taper on a lug nut? Who knows. Done right a thru bolt has antiseize on the threads and all 4 faces of the 2 washers. Back to passenger wheels, lug nuts and aluminum wheels are mandatory lube. I work in a stainless shop. You put a stainless bolt into a stainless hole without lube, I kill you.
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I have worked to many, many torque specs in manuals. While I understand that torque specs can and will be written for clean, dry threads I find that to be unacceptable. Depending on the thread tolerance you are going to get the most variation in friction with everything dry.
This, plus "clean, dry" is an unattainable standard in almost every real-world application. Might as well appease the math majors and assume a spherical bolt. "Clean, dry" becomes "wet, rusty" pretty quick in the real world. Decent grease or anti-seize stays consistent.
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And to add, mercifully most things on a Sikorsky helicopter specified a lube. And while most run of the mill morons tried to confuse inch pounds with foot pounds and wonder why teeny little bolt go snap I did get to QA for one weapons grade moron. Why yes, I think it's just grand that you figured out how to torque the four bolts that hold the helicopter up in the sky without that pesky 6 foot long torque wrench that everyone hates... Now if you could please put that wee little inch lb wrench away and attempt to achieve 350 ft. lbs on those bolts I'd appreciate it.
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Newest mental note. Helicopter? NFW :laugh:
Cool, so here's the story so far. Daughter takes the truck to a place her friends recommended to get the tires rotated. Next thing you know it gets an "alignment" 30 days after they did the ball joints and put an alignment on it at the Ford dealer. She also tells me the emergency brake is broken. They took the drums off the rear to inspect the brakes that were inspected 30 days ago and parts fell out on the passenger side. Things are dangling and could get wrapped around this and damage that. I call the dealer, he cries and says he already spent too much money prepping the truck and as is is as is. Which I knew he was going to say but I had to do it to quiet the ladies down here if you know what I mean.
Then I call this other shop and the "owner" says, yup I have the part here and it's broken. Doesn't tell me what part. So, I go down and pull the drum myself and what do I find but one of the shoe return springs missing and it's the one that holds the ear looking thing that the little cable for the self adjustment mechanism wraps around. The little cable is what was dangling and the little lever thing on the bottom was being held in by only the pressure of it's associated spring. Nothing at ALL to do with the E brake. Capable of great damage? Absolutely. It took me about 2 minutes to get the cable off and get the lever and spring out of there. Less actually. These idiots sent it out like that. He had the end of the cable stuffed into the shoe retainer spring.
So I had to buy TWO hardware kits. One for the spring and another for the ear looking thing. Plus the axle seal and wheel cylinder are leaking on that side. So I put it right for now and the plan is on Sunday do the seal, wheel cylinder, replace the shoes (because for $20 why not?) and use up all that nice new hardware I had to buy. Meanwhile daughter is under strict instruction to never take it anywhere for mechanical work again without telling me first.
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And I guess I'll be adding a little dab of anti seize around the bolt holes those alloy rims too. And speaking of too tight. Yes, I had to stand on the lug wrench to break them free. I have to admitto being a slug and not ever torquing mine.But I do happen to have this torque wrench that I never use so... ;)
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And speaking of too tight.
Picked up a VW Bug years ago for parts. I don't remember the exact metric spec for torque on the rear axle nut, but it worked out to a little over 200 ft-lbs. After soaking it with penetrating oil overnight, we had two pieces of C channel bolted to to the drum, and me bouncing on the end of a 6 foot pipe over a 3/4" breaker bar to finally break it loose. Ruined the drum in the process, but the axle was still good.
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I have mostly driven new vehicles the last 15 years, but drove older vehicles before that. I have NEVER had rusted lug nuts or bolts, but I think I have seen that on older trailers and such. I've never lubed the luggs. I have been using Discount Tire locations for tires down here for some time. Never had trouble with them overtightening anything. I guess they use regulated impact wrenches or maybe I am lucky. Weighing over 200 lbs, I can usually put some weight on the lug wrench and break the bolts. Talking to others around here, most guys do use never sieze at least on boat trailers and such, and prefer that or some lube on bolt. Live and learn I guess.
Here at work, we have 4 big reciprocating hydrogen compressors. The mechanics generally use never-seize compound on just about every compressor bolt and flange bolt in the plant. We generally try to use coated bolts. Raw steel anything rusts immediately here along the Gulf Coast, and raw bolts would be nearly rusted through in 5 years.
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At the Discount Tire stores in Lubbock they have one guy (presumably a managerial type) that checks all the lug nuts with an actual torque wrench before the vehicle is released. I was pretty impressed by that.
Brad
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I got the tires for my truck here at the local Costco. Was really impressed when I watched them hand spin all the lugnuts on and then hand torque each one. Even more impressed with the fact that they did it twice. Once while on the lift with the little tire grabber block in place, an once more to check once it was on the ground. Triply impressed by the fact that they torqued them on in a star pattern
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I remove lug nuts with an impact wrench (if it's handy), and I also use it to spin them back on barely-snug. Then I tighten them by hand, and I go around the wheel twice.
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Picked up a VW Bug years ago for parts. I don't remember the exact metric spec for torque on the rear axle nut, but it worked out to a little over 200 ft-lbs. After soaking it with penetrating oil overnight, we had two pieces of C channel bolted to to the drum, and me bouncing on the end of a 6 foot pipe over a 3/4" breaker bar to finally break it loose. Ruined the drum in the process, but the axle was still good.
I had to go back and read that again. I thought, "200 f lbs on lug nuts? What kind of VW IS this? I mean, I know them Germans are nuts and all but ,,," lol
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wd-40 ???
=D
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A good way to sum this whole thread:
If it's worth screwing, then it's worth using lube. ;)
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A good way to sum this whole thread:
If it's worth screwing, then it's worth using lube. ;)
Especially on the rear, as I understand it.
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A good way to sum this whole thread:
If it's worth screwing, then it's worth using lube. ;)
If your nuts are too tight, a little lube will help them come off :angel:
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Meanwhile daughter is under strict instruction to never take it anywhere for mechanical work again without telling me first.
This is the most important part. And never to "a friend who is going to do [me] a favor by working on it."
Several decades ago, when I was married to wife v1.0, we had a friend ... who worked as a carpenter and drove a pickup truck on construction sites.
One fine day I followed him somewhere and I noticed something hanging down beneath his rear axle. It turned out to be the steel brake line from the junction on the axle tube to the left rear wheel. Yep ... his "friend" (who ran "the best" repair shop in town) had done a brake job. The line on that side was rusted out, so he replaced it ... with a piece of brake line at least a foot or eighteen inches too long. Rather than cut it to the right length and make a new flare (which was probably beyond his capability, even though Mr. Non-mechanic me could do it), he just coiled up the extra length and left it hanging there ... ready to be grabbed and ripped off the axle by the first convenient rock or stump. (Did I mention that my friend worked on construction sites? Yes? Thought so.)
Yes, there is a reason I never trust a shop to do anything on which my life and safety or that of my wife and daughter might depend.
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I got the tires for my truck here at the local Costco. Was really impressed when I watched them hand spin all the lugnuts on and then hand torque each one. Even more impressed with the fact that they did it twice. Once while on the lift with the little tire grabber block in place, an once more to check once it was on the ground. Triply impressed by the fact that they torqued them on in a star pattern
That is, indeed, impressive. I can't imagine any shop around here doing that, but it's exactly the way it should be done.
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That is, indeed, impressive. I can't imagine any shop around here doing that, but it's exactly the way it should be done.
Only takes a few extra seconds per wheel with a clicker wrench. Spin them on to a brief rattle with the impact and finish with the clicker.
Just more convenient with the 4-way on the side of the road.