Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on November 04, 2013, 02:56:03 PM
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I have not heard of these before. What is interesting to me is that there is still an ongoing, and apparently future, demand for mechanical HDs in tech business, especially with outfits like Netflix. I'm seeing 1TB SSDs now, and would think everyone would start migrating to them. Even with the helium, you still have moving parts, heat, and less longevity.
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/11/04/why-netflix-loves-helium-filled-hard-drives/?intcmp=obnetwork
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Hrm, isn't helium relatively scarce?
I know in HVAC and welding helium has been replaced with cheaper, more available chemicals.
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Yeah there's supposedly a helium shortage
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Hrm, isn't helium relatively scarce?
I know in HVAC and welding helium has been replaced with cheaper, more available chemicals.
An article from 2012 about the Helium shortage.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/med-tech/why-is-there-a-helium-shortage-10031229 (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/med-tech/why-is-there-a-helium-shortage-10031229)
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I have not heard of these before. What is interesting to me is that there is still an ongoing, and apparently future, demand for mechanical HDs in tech business, especially with outfits like Netflix. I'm seeing 1TB SSDs now, and would think everyone would start migrating to them. Even with the helium, you still have moving parts, heat, and less longevity.
Cost is still the big issue. At current retail prices SSD's cost about ten times more per storage unit than do HDD's (sixty cents per GB versus six cents).
Brad
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"Helium Filled Hard Drives"
Wouldn't that make your MP3s sound funny?
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Cost is still the big issue. At current retail prices SSD's cost about ten times more per storage unit than do HDD's (sixty cents per GB versus six cents).
Brad
I was figuring somebody like Netflix is gonna get a pretty raging discount. I have no idea how much these hermetically sealed drives woukl run for an adequate cost comparison. You're right that the big SSDs are still a bit high, but prices are dropping like crazy, even in the retail realm. I would guess that in the next one to one and a half years, we'll be seeing 1TB SSDs at the <$200 price point.
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I thought all HDDs were already hermetically sealed. In my office we don't need the storage of the larger HDDs, but we do need the speed of the SSDs. I have 3 256GB SSDs in a RAID5 array on all our new workstations.
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Helium shortage? Bah! Just set off a bunch of hydrogen bombs.
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Hrm, isn't helium relatively scarce?
Our NMR Spectrotrometer is a superconducting magnet surrounded by liquid helium.
If it 'quenches' and releases its helium, I know that the cost is in the 10s of thousands of dollars to have it refilled.
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I thought all HDDs were already hermetically sealed. In my office we don't need the storage of the larger HDDs, but we do need the speed of the SSDs. I have 3 256GB SSDs in a RAID5 array on all our new workstations.
There's a difference between "hermetically sealed" when the inside environment is normal atmospheric mix, or maybe a dry Nitrogen purge at roughly the same air pressure as the outside environment, and when it's trying to contain something with such a low atomic weight like Helium.
Stuff has to be tight, and also produced or machined to much tighter tolerances, or the little He atoms slip right out. I'd suspect that because He is also a Noble Gas/Element, it may have additional challenges at containment too.
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There's a difference between "hermetically sealed" when the inside environment is normal atmospheric mix, or maybe a dry Nitrogen purge at roughly the same air pressure as the outside environment, and when it's trying to contain something with such a low atomic weight like Helium.
Stuff has to be tight, and also produced or machined to much tighter tolerances, or the little He atoms slip right out. I'd suspect that because He is also a Noble Gas/Element, it may have additional challenges at containment too.
Point taken. Thank you.
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I am surprised they couldn't use Hydrogen as an alternative if the drives are sealed well. It would be a good bit less expensive. It is flamable, but if it is sealed, it is sealed. That little bit escaping in a leak isn't much with all the cooling fans cycling air.
I know hydrogen is used as a heat transfer fluid in some power generators like GE Cogen generators.
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I am surprised they couldn't use Hydrogen as an alternative if the drives are sealed well. It would be a good bit less expensive. It is flamable, but if it is sealed, it is sealed. That little bit escaping in a leak isn't much with all the cooling fans cycling air.
I know hydrogen is used as a heat transfer fluid in some power generators like GE Cogen generators.
You know, no matter how idiot proof you make it, there will always be a more creative idiot. Then you get the reputation as the company with the exploding hard drives, there's a CNN special report, dramatic music, "Breaking News", etc..... Dateline NBC would hire the same company that "tested" the gas tanks on the Chevy pickup trucks back in the early 90's, you'd see footage of the hard drive interspersed with images of Hiroshima, "OMG HYDROGEN BOMBS!!!" All because some moron decided to open a hydrogen-filled hard drive while smoking a cigarette.
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OH, the humanity!
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You know, no matter how idiot proof you make it, there will always be a more creative idiot. Then you get the reputation as the company with the exploding hard drives, there's a CNN special report, dramatic music, "Breaking News", etc..... Dateline NBC would hire the same company that "tested" the gas tanks on the Chevy pickup trucks back in the early 90's, you'd see footage of the hard drive interspersed with images of Hiroshima, "OMG HYDROGEN BOMBS!!!" All because some moron decided to open a hydrogen-filled hard drive while smoking a cigarette.
1. The hydrogen would NOT be mixed with oxygen inside the drive.
2. Even if someone opened it up, the volume would be less than a cubic foot ( I assume it isn't pressurized to any great degree). At most you would get a Poof! if lit right when it was opened. Flammable gas cylinders don't explode, they emit a jet of flame since the gas doesn't burn until it leaves and mixes with air. This would be low or no pressure at all. Also, it could be restricted to industrial/commercial applications only.
Pure oxygen cylinders do explode in the right circumstances. Or at least the stuff that flash burns does.
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Oh, you and I (and most everyone with more than two functioning neurons to rub together) knows that. The problem is the monosynaptic morons out there that fancy themselves l33t h4x0rz as well as the media that wants to be "first to point out the danger of _____________".
Think about it this way - take what the media knows about firearms, and apply the same lack of logic to hydrogen filled hard drives. That's how you would get the,
"ERMAGERD, (https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwestfordcomputer.com%2Fimages%2Fhard_drive.jpg&hash=3596dc9264d7d65cb8f35f91e21a6504f49e6d69) ARE (https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdailydamocles.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F12%2Fmushroom-cloud-hb1.jpg&hash=70935a1c558c22b2ec721faf1cf2a2fa37a06f13)"
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement
Might have something to do with why...
Could also be pressure and density issues with H2 in terms of the Bernoulli principle being used to keep the R/W heads off of the platters.
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1. The hydrogen would NOT be mixed with oxygen inside the drive.
2. Even if someone opened it up, the volume would be less than a cubic foot ( I assume it isn't pressurized to any great degree). At most you would get a Poof! if lit right when it was opened. Flammable gas cylinders don't explode, they emit a jet of flame since the gas doesn't burn until it leaves and mixes with air. This would be low or no pressure at all. Also, it could be restricted to industrial/commercial applications only.
Pure oxygen cylinders do explode in the right circumstances. Or at least the stuff that flash burns does.
How dare you quote facts and common sense, don't you know there's hydrogen in there? HYDROGEN??!! ZOMG!!!!!!!!
Brad
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement
Might have something to do with why...
Could also be pressure and density issues with H2 in terms of the Bernoulli principle being used to keep the R/W heads off of the platters.
These two came to mind, as well as how difficult it is to contain H2. But, that's also a problem with helium, so maybe it's not an issue here.
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"Helium Filled Hard Drives"
Wouldn't that make your MP3s sound funny?
Good point! Although, I'd be more worried about my computer floating away! :P
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That reminds me about a news story 10 or 15 years ago. The army or someone was going to send a few rail cars full of napalm to the Houston Ship Channel to be burned/disposed of by a local company. The news. Was trying to stir up a bunch of concern about it worrying about it exploding or something.
The stupid part was if these news people knew anything about all the chemicals produced and in use by chemical plants on the ship channel, a little napalm would be nothing. Hell, the city of Houston was running LNG buses at that time.
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I was figuring somebody like Netflix is gonna get a pretty raging discount.
Whether you pay retail, OEM, or distributor pricing the important bit is that the ratios stay the same... If you're buying enough to get SSDs for 'half price', that's also enough to get the hard drives for half price, thus the ratio remains 1:10 for raw storage.
You're right that the big SSDs are still a bit high, but prices are dropping like crazy, even in the retail realm. I would guess that in the next one to one and a half years, we'll be seeing 1TB SSDs at the <$200 price point.
Netflix needs the storage NOW, not in a year and a half.
A quick check shows that a 1TB SSD starts at $600 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147251) over on newegg. You can get a 3TB HD for $130, or $43 per TB. Or basically a 14X price penalty for storage.
Even at below $200 you're still looking at it costing 4X as much.
I have no idea how much these hermetically sealed drives woukl run for an adequate cost comparison.
Not sure about the helium filled drive part, logically speaking they're using helium to avoid expansion issues, while avoiding any particulates etc... Normal HD's aren't even sealed - there's a vent behind a hefty filter.
SSDs have their place, but given that Netflix mostly does streaming where you tend to feed blocks sequentially anyways and not do random reads where SSDs are strong, it's not playing to the strengths of SSD.
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That reminds me about a news story 10 or 15 years ago. The army or someone was going to send a few rail cars full of napalm to the Houston Ship Channel to be burned/disposed of by a local company. The news. Was trying to stir up a bunch of concern about it worrying about it exploding or something.
The stupid part was if these news people knew anything about all the chemicals produced and in use by chemical plants on the ship channel, a little napalm would be nothing. Hell, the city of Houston was running LNG buses at that time.
There was a similar story made about nothing in the upper midwest about burning napalm for disposal.
The masses are asses when it comes to most things.
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There was a similar story made about nothing in the upper midwest about burning napalm for disposal.
The masses are asses when it comes to most things.
Yeah, forget about chemical plants, do people really realize all the chemicals that travel across the nation every day in trucks and rail cars? Maybe I shouldn't tell them.
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I watch hundreds of those black insulated molten sulfur tanker cars go buy on many of the trains here in Wisconsin. I think people think they're full of oil or something. =D
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I can't think of a reason to use He in a hard drive other than the fact that it's non-reactive, and couldn't they use Argon?
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lower density than Argon
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I watch hundreds of those black insulated molten sulfur tanker cars go buy on many of the trains here in Wisconsin. I think people think they're full of oil or something. =D
Just tell them they are filled with jellied gasoline and see what they say. =D
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Just tell them they are filled with jellied gasoline and see what they say. =D
I would eat that if it was a donut.
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I can't think of a reason to use He in a hard drive other than the fact that it's non-reactive, and couldn't they use Argon?
From the article:
Modern hard drives store data on five metal platters that spin at up to 15,000 revolutions per minute, so fast in fact that drag from the tiny amount of air they whistle through is a problem. But at one-seventh the density of air, helium provides far less resistance for those spinning disks, letting the company pack in more disks that require less power and therefore cost less to operate.
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Yeah, forget about chemical plants, do people really realize all the chemicals that travel across the nation every day in trucks and rail cars? Maybe I shouldn't tell them.
Chemicals? Like milk? Fruit juice? Nail polish? ;)