Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Sawdust on January 09, 2014, 01:08:55 PM
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Cracks in the heat exchanger, so the thing is unplugged and the gas off. Good thing it's not too cold yet.
The whole system (which is 25 years old), consisting of a furnace, coil, and a separate split system air conditioner needs to be replaced.
One installer is recommending a few system options with Carrier components ranging from $6200 to $9500...is Carrier still making good stuff?
Need this expense right now like a hole in the head. :mad: :'(
Sawdust
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Well, with Santa Anas starting again Monday, you're gonna need AC before you need the furnace. :)
Still a bummer about the expense.
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"Need this expense right now like a hole in the head."
ain't it always the way....
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What we did was buy infrared quartz heaters for each end of the house. We actually saved money the electric bill went up, but the gas bill went down. The gas was more expensive than electricity to use. Then in the spring when heater guys were hungry for work, it was cheaper to fix.
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Well, with Santa Anas starting again Monday, you're gonna need AC before you need the furnace. :)
Still a bummer about the expense.
Yeah, no kidding, lol.
The relatively warm weather has taken some of the sting and urgency away.
But I can't lag too much; all of a sudden, karma's going to throw a cold snap at us, and I won't be able to get the work done 'cause everyone will be on service calls.
Sawdust
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quote
"is Carrier still making good stuff?"
The furnaces seem ok. Haven't been pleased with their package units of late but I haven't bought anything else in the last couple years to compare them to. I don't know if a general decline or just Carrier.
You may be able to just replace the furnace for now & as long as the furnace is compatable with whatever "A" coil you put in you can do the AC later.
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When I first moved into my house I'm in, only 1 of the 2 air handlers was a heat pump. The other was AC only.
Makes sense for AZ I guess, but the front half of the house would get real cold in December through February. I'd wake up and the thermostat would say mid-60's in that part of the house, meaning the kitchen and laundry room (farthest and most isolated) might even be in the high 50's.
For the first 2 years I augmented those handful of cold months with an electric heater. It ran up the electric bill a skosh, but I could warm up that ~700 square foot area to tolerable levels with 1 electric unit.
Now I've got a nice new heat pump that replaced the AC-only unit, and it's a non issue. But I was able to get by without it for quite some time.
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Not sure about Carrier anymore. They were ok but their customer service to me the contractor went down the tubes. I tried York, they kinda sucked too. Now I'm into American Standard and they seem OK. So to me, I haven't found anything out there that trips my trigger. AS now because the supplier here is very good and the prices are decent. carried IS the high priced spread. You might try Bryant which is Carrier but cheaper. Goodman is another decent mid level setup.
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http://www.quadrafire.com/ (http://www.quadrafire.com/)
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I went with a whole new Goodman system last year. It's been great. The house is much more comfortable than before, and it's very quiet.
They get very mixed reviews online, but I've been very happy. I think that 99% of the issues people have are simply due to a poor installation. I looked at some HVAC technician forums before I made the decision. A new State if the art manufacturing site, K.I.S.S. design, and parts availability to any service tech, were pluses for Goodman.
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Goodman is a pretty good seller down here due to the price point. I haven't had to service a single one I have installed. Must mean a good install. =D I usually have a hand from a friend on the bigger jobs.
They pay pretty good for a compressor replacement in warranty. Power surge or lightening strike on someone else's install. They didn't want the installer back out so I had to do some fancy paperwork to get it taken care of since I didn't do warranty for them at the time. Funny thing, they said it never worked as good from the day it was new as it does now after I had ahold of it.
I've taken refrigerant out of many units around here to bring the subcooling/superheat into line. The customers are surprised it could work better and there power bill can go down with less refrigerant in it. More is better doesn't work in this field.
Quality of installation and service is much more important than brand.
jim
280, kinda curious about your York problems. I've been happy with the Luxaire, York with a different sticker in the bag.
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Bought into a couple of their 98% furnaces. Both had leaky flue gas condensate pans (the CLEAR ones not the black) and I have also changed a combustion blower motor and gas valve on one of them as well. Plus the local supplier couldn't get an order straight to save their lives but that's not York, just a crappy supply house.
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Not sure about Carrier anymore. They were ok but their customer service to me the contractor went down the tubes. I tried York, they kinda sucked too. Now I'm into American Standard and they seem OK. So to me, I haven't found anything out there that trips my trigger. AS now because the supplier here is very good and the prices are decent. carried IS the high priced spread. You might try Bryant which is Carrier but cheaper. Goodman is another decent mid level setup.
isn't goodman was the same internals as carrier, just different marketing? the last carrier i installed was in 2006. it has worked well, and is as good as anything out there.
no-one sells a heat exchanger for your unit? also, as mentioned above, you could install the furnace now and the a/c later to help absorb costs.
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isn't goodman was the same internals as carrier, just different marketing? the last carrier i installed was in 2006. it has worked well, and is as good as anything out there.
no-one sells a heat exchanger for your unit? also, as mentioned above, you could install the furnace now and the a/c later to help absorb costs.
My residential buddy has switched from Bryant and Carrier to Goodman. There was spell a few summers ago where even as a dealer Carrier couldn't get him equipment due to high demand. That's when he terminated his useless dealer status and started using Goodman, he never looked back.
Carrier rooftop package units were junk at the lower price points and only slightly better built at the higher price points. If you took more than two panels off the units they would lose structural integrity and lean!
isn't goodman was the same internals as carrier, just different marketing?
That would be Bryant; although York in their infinite stupidity had copied some of Carriers worse ideas, like pilot runner tubes that rust and plug up.
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My evaporator coil is bad, too. The leakge from it is what looks like to be the cause of my furnace being ridden with rust.
So, I am doomed to replace the whole system. I know that I could do the compressor later, but it runs on Freon, and would have to convert the new coil.
I think a matched system is just the way to go.
Cry once, and all that rot. :'(
Sawdust
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My evaporator coil is bad, too. The leakge from it is what looks like to be the cause of my furnace being ridden with rust.
So, I am doomed to replace the whole system. I know that I could do the compressor later, but it runs on Freon, and would have to convert the new coil.
I think a matched system is just the way to go.
Cry once, and all that rot. :'(
Sawdust
Don't cry too much. You may be pleasantly surprised at the utility savings. I swapped out my system about ten years ago. The savings paid for it in about four years. Mine was only a 13 SEER so you will likely see even more impressive results. You might think about adding some blown-in attic insulation while your at it (if you haven't already). Probably the single cheapest way to improve your utility efficiency.
Go ahead and bite the bullet on a full, matched system. No use putting off the inevitable, and you'll know the systems is good to go from day one. Besides, trying to piecemeal the thing together over time is not only a gold-plated invitation for trouble, it's more expensive overall.
Brad
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i think what tripphammer was suggesting is to replace the furnace and install an empty plennum that will hold a future evaporator to be purchased when you do the compressor.
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This
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The markup on stuff (that I don't sell) is amazing.
Before we sold our last house, I had a new furnace and A/C system installed. My BIL runs a heating HVAC company, so we got the stuff at cost, and paid one of his guys to do it on a weekend. A bit over $2000 for parts and labor.
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Looks like you sell the wrong stuff! :P
:angel:
What brand and what sizes. And where the hell are you anyways?
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I mean a high efficiency 5 ton condenser, 16 SEER we'll say, will run me about $2000 plus tax all by itself. So it's a relative thing.
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You will pay a lot more for Carrier and the other big name guys. Not only initially but if they ever need parts.
That is another thing nice about Goodman. More off the shelf parts are used making repairs later down the road less expensive.
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Looks like you sell the wrong stuff! :P
:angel:
What brand and what sizes. And where the hell are you anyways?
It was a 2.5 ton compressor. Furnace was a good quality brand recommended by BIL. I don't remember the size of the furnace or brand. Not important to me now, as I sold the house in WI and moved to AL.
Quotes I got from other contractors were well north of $5000, with some over $8000.
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Well, you got a good deal that's for sure. ;)
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I was told a rule of thumb for the cost of A/C is $1000 a ton. That was back in the 90's, when I paid $12,000 for two 5 ton units, a 2.5 ton, and the air handlers for them. The two 75' lengths of ductwork I got months later cost a few cents, too.
I don't know if there's a rule of thumb for BTU's.
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I was told a rule of thumb for the cost of A/C is $1000 a ton. That was back in the 90's, when I paid $12,000 for two 5 ton units, a 2.5 ton, and the air handlers for them. The two 75' lengths of ductwork I got months later cost a few cents, too.
I don't know if there's a rule of thumb for BTU's.
How big is your house? 12.5 tons could cool a mobile home in the center of the earth.
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BTUH rules of thumb vary in regards to the climate of the local area. Here in CT we go 1 ton (12,000 btuh) per 1000 sq ft.
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We use a ton per 500 sq ft here. Summer heat loads can be extreme.
Brad
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Is there any chance that top piece of TX all up there in OK's face isn't do friggin hot? And what is it with TX and OK and that little strip of land up there anyways?
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How's the quality of Bryant?
I got another estimate, and that's the brand the guy wants to use...
Sawdust
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The quality of any brand is dependent on the parts and design they are using right now.
The quality of the install will make a greater difference to you.
Where are you? Maybe I can make a wild weekend run. You better have plenty of good food and adult refreshments. >:D
jim
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How big is your house? 12.5 tons could cool a mobile home in the center of the earth.
That was for my studio, which was 5,000 square feet, 20 foot metal ceiling. My house used a 2.5 ton unit.
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In many cases Bryant is essentially carrier with a few cosmetic changes. As such it is OK stuff, my problem was with their customer service and my local supplier.
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In many cases Bryant is essentially carrier with a few cosmetic changes. As such it is OK stuff, my problem was with their customer service and my local supplier.
Sounds like my buddies story I told above.
They cater to the big shops and are less responsive to the little guy. Big shops condemn more equipment and are less prone to be repair orientated. That equals more units sold.
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The quality of any brand is dependent on the parts and design they are using right now.
The quality of the install will make a greater difference to you.
Where are you? Maybe I can make a wild weekend run. You better have plenty of good food and adult refreshments. >:D
jim
LOL...I'm in Southern California. Although I have plenty of what you require, I imagine I'm a little too far for you.
Which is unfortunate for me, of course.
Sawdust
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The guy that proposed the Bryant system has been around a while, and he installed a complete Bryant system in my old house about 12 years ago (which had no air conditioning at all).
I subsequently stayed in that house another 3.5 years before selling and moving to my present abode.
Didn't have a single problem with that system.
He says he likes Bryant as he can get parts readily, and he doesn't get call-backs.
He has also done quite a bit of work for clients at my father-in-laws condo complex. Everybody berry happy.
I'm leaning towards using him. He needs to send me a written proposal with final pricing and the part numbers of the specific components that he wants to use.
I want to compare the Bryant components with the Carrier stuff that others have offered.
One problem that I have is that Carrier doesn't give much detail (at least that I have found) of the specific differences between components within a particular product line.
Sawdust
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Any comments on the following Bryant systems?
1. Furnace: 310JAV066110
Air Conditioner: 113ANA06000
Coil: ADPC60245C336
$6315
2. Furnace: 310JAV066110
Air Conditioner: 116BNA06000
Coil: ADPC60245C336
$6765
3. Furnace: 310JAV066110
Air Conditioner: 126BNA06000
Coil: ADPC60245C336
$7280
A few points to consider: I don't plan to be in this house more than another ten years; we don't use the furnace much; the freon line is 3/4" in diameter, so I don't think that I will benefit from a higher A/C SEER rating.
Anywho...any comments?
With much appreciation for all of youse guys' input,
Sawdust
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I'd go for #2 myself for what's there but question the choice of an 80% furnace. Any reason you didn't consider a 90+?
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Gods, I'm not charging enough for installs
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Gods, I'm not charging enough for installs
i know how you feel
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I'd go for #2 myself for what's there but question the choice of an 80% furnace. Any reason you didn't consider a 90+?
We hardly use the furnace; maybe a few times a week during the winter months in the morning to take the chill of the house when we wake up.
Why spend more for #2 (which achieves an increase in A/C SEER from 13 to 15)? My understanding is that my freon line is undersized a bit; my engineering intuition tells me that I therefore won't benefit from the higher efficiency conditioner. Again, intuition only - I could be wrong.
Sawdust
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Gods, I'm not charging enough for installs
i know how you feel
Git yer butts out here!
Sawdust
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Actually, yea, 3/4 is small. I can't recall the exact loss but I'll say like around 10%. You WOULD be better served by replacing it. But I guess you know that. My take is regardless the 16 SEER will still outperform the 13 SEER so you should see less usage. The jump from 13 to 16 is something like 30%. The jump from 16 to 26 is only about 10% more. This is why I say #2.
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Thanks, 280.
I just received an estimate for a Carrier system that is exactly the same as the Bryant system #1 previously described in this thread.
Estimate was from one of the larger concerns (read: mucho overhead) in the area.
Drum roll........................................................................$10,500
Uh, no.
Sawdust
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2. Furnace: 310JAV066110
Air Conditioner: 116BNA06000
Coil: ADPC60245C336
$6765
Luxaire TG8S120C20MP11 80%, 120kbtu input, 5 ton drive
Luxaire AL6B060F3C 16 SEER R410A 5 Ton Condensing Unit
Luxaire FC62D3XN1 5.0T coil
My cost on those parts is a hair over $3k + tax. In your case, I'd probably throw in a $300 lineset as well.
Like a fool, I don't mark up the parts and usually charge about $1000 for labor. Might need to re-think that, especially since my business is completely legal, insured, licensed and legitimate now. Those insurance premiums hurt. I'm starting to figure out why HVAC companies charge what they do.
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Big house? Did they do a load calc or just replacing by size that is there.
I had a little lake house yesterday, two bedrooms, two main room that had a 3 ton heat pump and 26.3 kW of electric backup. Talk about over kill.
How cold does it get there? Or a better question for your install is what are your design temps? Could you go to a 5 ton Heat pump with a fan coil for your limited heating needs?
I priced out a 3 ton 16 seer with a 98% on a new construction with duct for a little over $6000. I haven't heard back yet and told them the price was only good for thirty days. It will be higher next time.
I can see you going 80% if you use it very little but everyone around here uses them a lot so I try to get everyone to go 95+ for the savings. Looking at cost versus return, I like the 16 seer units. Is the line set built into the walls or do they just not want to replace it?
jim
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2700 sq. ft., and replacing the existing 5 ton system. It occasionally gets down to 32, but my house never gets below 64 overnight.
Air conditioning much more important.
More and more I am thinking that I should upgrade to 16 SEER unit; I think that I could save roughly $200-$300 annually over the 13 SEER, which would pay back over about 4 years.
And that's if electricity rates don't increase again. Gee, what are the chances of that out here in California where no new power plants are being built?
What's a line set?
Sawdust
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What's a line set?
Logically speaking it'd be a kit to replace the freon lines you were just mentioning as being undersized.
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Ah, of course.
Yes, they are buried in the walls and between floors.
In addition, I found extensive product data for all of the condensers that I am considering, and they all have tables showing what efficiency I will be losing by using 3/4" line over the distance.
It's 1%. I can live with that.
Sawdust
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Yes, they are buried in the walls and between floors.
'Depending', it might be possible to use the old lines to snake the new lines in, but at 1%, why bother? Other than if any of them have a hole, or are about to develop one...
Personally, if I was stable in my house I'd be looking at crazy ideas like putting a smallish heat pump on my boiler exhaust to extract that heat.