Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: 230RN on January 13, 2014, 09:36:45 PM
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Amazing how the guy dropped at the instant of the shot sound.
Saw this on channel 2 over-the air news at 7 in Denver. They'll probably edit out the actual shot in later broadcasts.
Seven-Eleven at Perry and Colfax this afternoon.
Robber enters with gun, manager and one customer in store, one employee in back, and a delivery person delivering baked goods. Employee in back goes into a hiding place, calls 911, runs out the back door.
Police start arriving, gunman takes the bakery person hostage. Police demand he lets the hostage go, he does not. Has her by the collar as he tries to leave the store.
Video shows him with the hostage close up (body contact), gun to her head. He looks around, starts to retreat back into the store, is shot just before he regains cover behind the door jamb.
He falls instantly. I mean bang and gravity took over. Hostage was left just standing there.
Police say he was shot "just above the shoulders," which to me means a shot to the spinal cord or darned close.
From what I saw, the officer had no choice at that point but to end the threat. No blood or gore or even the bullet hole in his hoodie was seen in the video. No details on the weapon used or distance involved.
I was stunned at how quickly he just went limp. I had heard before that a neck shot like that would instantly incapacitate a person, but seeing it in real time was amazing.
I'm not being bloodthirsty here (you all know that's not my style), just documenting it before they edit it out of the later news. I hope the Officer can take comfort in the fact that the decision to shoot was entirely justified, to my mind.
Terry, 230RN
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I love a happy ending!
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Bad guy dead or just paralyzed?
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Bad guy dead or just paralyzed?
Not dead yet. Critical condition. I swear thugs are like roaches...hard as hell to kill.
http://kdvr.com/2014/01/13/raw-video-man-takes-hostage-outside-7-eleven/#ooid=A4MnJ3ajqS-UQvGmVZVHCyuHc8tireok
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I love a happy ending!
Darn! Looks like there will be a delay.
Disconnect the brain from the body and there is no more signal to the muscles. They go to the default state of utter and total relaxation.
There is a quiet but persistent discussion on shooting to sever the spinal cord as opposed to destroying the brain stem. Folks in the first camp say even with a brain stem shot the brain can send signals that translate into the muscles twitching. And yet there is film evidence of brain stem shots with the body also falling like the proverbial sack of potatoes. However, most of what I am aware of (thankfully not a whole lot) does not involve someone in the process of wanting to pull/press the trigger.
I'm not sure how one would scientifically test to see if it is possible for the trigger to be pulled/pressed as it seems you would need someone who was intending for that to happen. Not sure you coud recruit volunteers for the study.
stay safe.
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Not dead yet. Critical condition. I swear thugs are like roaches...hard as hell to kill.
http://kdvr.com/2014/01/13/raw-video-man-takes-hostage-outside-7-eleven/#ooid=A4MnJ3ajqS-UQvGmVZVHCyuHc8tireok
The greater a burden they are to society the harder they are to kill or injure.
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Darn! Looks like there will be a delay.
Disconnect the brain from the body and there is no more signal to the muscles. They go to the default state of utter and total relaxation.
There is a quiet but persistent discussion on shooting to sever the spinal cord as opposed to destroying the brain stem. Folks in the first camp say even with a brain stem shot the brain can send signals that translate into the muscles twitching. And yet there is film evidence of brain stem shots with the body also falling like the proverbial sack of potatoes. However, most of what I am aware of (thankfully not a whole lot) does not involve someone in the process of wanting to pull/press the trigger.
I'm not sure how one would scientifically test to see if it is possible for the trigger to be pulled/pressed as it seems you would need someone who was intending for that to happen. Not sure you coud recruit volunteers for the study.
stay safe.
I think that training for a neck shot is not a realistic goal.
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I think that training for a neck shot is not a realistic goal.
Perhaps not for self defense situations. Somehow I have the feeling the shot in question was taken by a "designated marksman".
stay safe.
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Charlie Postelwaite would be proud ;)
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Charlie Postelwaite would be proud ;)
bucket mouth!
One of my favorite scenes from one of my favorite movies.
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Maybe he just wanted some skittles.
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^ I hate to admit it, for such a serious situation, but that was pretty funny!
Correction to my OP: from the video I saw on KWGN, it looked like he had the gun to her head. The linked video above from KVOD shows he had it to her back. The KVOD video shows the bullet punching the glass behind him, which I didn't notice in the KWGN video. I don't know if they're the same video or not.
I noticed he curled forward slightly as he fell.
Just poking around in Google maps and the street view, it looks like the shot was taken from under the gas pump roof, about 80 or 90 feet away. This is based on the post behind which the gunman started to disappear, which looks like the posts around the gas pumps.
In a "sidebar interview," a training Police Officer at the Denver PD range said that Officers are extensively trained in various shooting situations and that these videos will probably be added to the training regimen.
Latest news, 9PM, states the gunman is still in critical condition. The bakery lady went back several hours later and drove off in her truck.
Bread's probably pretty stale by now.
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My only experience with a neck shot was on a groundhog, judging by the chunks of spine from the exit wound I got the spine dead center. No twitch, no tensing of the muscles, just slowly fell from standing up on hind feet to the side. So a Hornady XTP driven hot out of a 9mm is quite a groundhog round, especially if you sneak up to 3 yards directly behind the varmint cong.
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Glad I didn't have to make that shot. I never considered the necessity of sighting a rifle in at ~ 20yds. Reckon the po-po have several precision weapons, already sighted in at various distances? I reckon it wouldn't be THAT hard to hold under at ranges that close, but it sure as hell would be nerve-wracking.
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^^^^clickclickclickclick
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I've seen 200 pound deer and a couple coyotes shot in the cervical spine and they drop like a bag of sand.
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My only experience with a neck shot was on a groundhog, judging by the chunks of spine from the exit wound I got the spine dead center. No twitch, no tensing of the muscles, just slowly fell from standing up on hind feet to the side. So a Hornady XTP driven hot out of a 9mm is quite a groundhog round, especially if you sneak up to 3 yards directly behind the varmint cong.
You sneaked to within 3 yards of a whistle pig? Remind me to never pi$$ you off! The closest I ever got to one (low crawling, which I can no longer perform) was about 40 feet. Might have been able to get closer, but I was just getting into position (he was behind a chunk of concrete) for the shot.
I've seen 200 pound deer and a couple coyotes shot in the cervical spine and they drop like a bag of sand.
I shot a buck in the spine once. Bang! Sack-O-Potatoes!
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Glad I didn't have to make that shot. I never considered the necessity of sighting a rifle in at ~ 20yds. Reckon the po-po have several precision weapons, already sighted in at various distances? I reckon it wouldn't be THAT hard to hold under at ranges that close, but it sure as hell would be nerve-wracking.
Most police 'sniper' shootings happen within 100 yards, many inside of 50, since the cops can usually surround the place and get pretty close. Long Range shots are pretty rare.
http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-bolt-action-rifles/199611-swat-snipers-average-distance-target.html
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. . . Just poking around in Google maps and the street view, it looks like the shot was taken from under the gas pump roof, about 80 or 90 feet away. This is based on the post behind which the gunman started to disappear, which looks like the posts around the gas pumps.
I think the cop who fired was closer - if you look to the left of the perp, you can see the sniper's reflection in the store window - you can even see smoke from the muzzle blast at the shot. Once the camera zooms out, it looks like the shooter was within 50 feet.
Nonetheless, a good shoot.
(Anyone want to bet that if the hoodie-wearing perp had a darker complexion, various community organizers would already be protesting?)
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Glad I didn't have to make that shot. I never considered the necessity of sighting a rifle in at ~ 20yds. Reckon the po-po have several precision weapons, already sighted in at various distances? I reckon it wouldn't be THAT hard to hold under at ranges that close, but it sure as hell would be nerve-wracking.
Something often forgotten is the sight-over-bore distance and how that affects close range shooting from a rifle.
If you're zeroed at 50-100+, how far out is that shot off by 2-4 inches?
Only reason I like shooting the AR indoors is so I can close distance shoot the paper to get used to adjusting for the difference.
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Something often forgotten is the sight-over-bore distance and how that affects close range shooting from a rifle.
If you're zeroed at 50-100+, how far out is that shot off by 2-4 inches?
Only reason I like shooting the AR indoors is so I can close distance shoot the paper to get used to adjusting for the difference.
Yep ;)
There's some advantage to grandpa's 30-30 with iron sights mounted right down on the barrel.
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Something often forgotten is the sight-over-bore distance and how that affects close range shooting from a rifle.
If you're zeroed at 50-100+, how far out is that shot off by 2-4 inches?
Only reason I like shooting the AR indoors is so I can close distance shoot the paper to get used to adjusting for the difference.
if your zeroed at 100yds, the most you could be off is the distance between the center of the scope to the center of the bore, correct? when taking a shot at a vertical object like a neck, wouldn't being within 2 inches get the job done?
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Something often forgotten is the sight-over-bore distance and how that affects close range shooting from a rifle.
If you're zeroed at 50-100+, how far out is that shot off by 2-4 inches?
Only reason I like shooting the AR indoors is so I can close distance shoot the paper to get used to adjusting for the difference.
My brother ran into that this last deer season. Had a scoped 270 all ready to go and a nice deer comes up 15 yards away and he realized he had no idea where the POI would be. He wished he had a hunting pistol handy.
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Charlie Postelwaite would be proud ;)
The lawyer in Columbus, OH ??
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My brother ran into that this last deer season. Had a scoped 270 all ready to go and a nice deer comes up 15 yards away and he realized he had no idea where the POI would be. He wished he had a hunting pistol handy.
I shot a deer at that range once. I had a nice spot watching a game trail about 50 yards away and this little buck practically steps on me.
The shoulders/chest filled the entire scope view. I guess the scope offset at that range is less than my wobble at a more reasonable distance. It didn't seem to bother Mr. Whitetail - at least not for very long =)
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The lawyer in Columbus, OH ??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Range
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The lawyer in Columbus, OH ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uFarFM9sow
see around 1:18
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uFarFM9sow
see around 1:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L2O4qL_-lg
see around 1:00
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The lawyer in Columbus, OH ??
Seriously? You did not recognize the movie reference?
You shot my friend?
Yep.
BANG! (center of forehead)
stay safe.
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Glad I didn't have to make that shot. I never considered the necessity of sighting a rifle in at ~ 20yds. Reckon the po-po have several precision weapons, already sighted in at various distances? I reckon it wouldn't be THAT hard to hold under at ranges that close, but it sure as hell would be nerve-wracking.
Depending on the height of your sights above the bore axis, you might need to hold *over*.
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Between holdover and the ambiguity of physiological landmarks concealed by the hoodie, I wonder if that's why he took it in the neck in the first place.
Seems like someone shooting from the vantage point of the cameraman had a much better and safer shot. Although I don't mean to MMQB, as that's not the kind of thing you can easily plan out before hand.
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Seriously? You did not recognize the movie reference?
stay safe.
Yep. Open Range is one of the best Westerns of the last 10 or 15 years.
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Looks like the SWAT team was within 10 yards judging by how quickly they got to the perp after he dropped.
They are running ARs, so they probably have a 2.5 inch offset, depending on their sights. I couldn't tell if they had Aimpoints or EOTechs or scopes.
All in all, if the cop was aiming for the head and hit the neck, then that is a poor shot.
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Looks like the SWAT team was within 10 yards judging by how quickly they got to the perp after he dropped.
They are running ARs, so they probably have a 2.5 inch offset, depending on their sights. I couldn't tell if they had Aimpoints or EOTechs or scopes.
All in all, if the cop was aiming for the head and hit the neck, then that is a poor shot.
2.5" offset, probably zeroed to 100-200 yards, I would expect poi to be at least 2" low at 20 yards for something as quick as a .223
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Yep. Open Range is one of the best Westerns of the last 10 or 15 years.
Kevin Costner has had a few flops but, when he nails it, he NAILS it! IE, Dances With Wolves, No Way Out, Open Range...
I know a guy who guided for him on a fishing trip, and he said Kevin was a super guy in real life.
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2.5" offset, probably zeroed to 100-200 yards, I would expect poi to be at least 2" low at 20 yards for something as quick as a .223
Maybe.
For a SWAT team AR, I would expect a 25 or 50 yard zero, especially if they kick doors. In any case, I expect a SWAT officer to have better accuracy than that, assuming the shot was aimed for the head. Then again, maybe the shooter was using a bolt action .308 with a scope and didn't know his short range dope.
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"Then again, maybe the shooter was using a bolt action .308 with a scope and didn't know his short range dope."
Hmmm, I don't see that. Supposedly these guys are trained to the max. And anyone who's shot close up with high sights should know that. Presuming he shot low, I'd rather suspect the hoodie hid the topography of the anatomy, or the fact that few telescopes focus well at close range. (I've got a 12X varmint scope that won't focus to 25 yards.)
Apparently the dipwad is still alive as of the news at 7PM --I've been out of touch since then. El Dipwado had quite a record and did time, too, according to that 7 PM report. At that point --7PM -- it wasn't clear if he actually had a gun, so maybe he was bluffing his way through the whole thing.
And I was looking at the bullet hole in the glass. Without scaling to verify it, it looked bigger than a .22, like maybe .308 or even 9mm but I frankly don't know how glass reacts to a 3000 f/s projectile. Would it blow a hole that much bigger than the projectile?
I don't see an urban PD using a .308 in a close quarters urban situation.
All this, bearing in mind that it's all speculation at this point, but it's interesting to MMQB the ballistics anyhow.
In any case, job well done, DPD! Everyone went home safe except His Dipwadness.
Terry