Post by: roo_ster on September 13, 2006, 05:21:44 AM
Quote from: Jonah Goldberg
America the Treacherous:The seditious dementia of conspiracy theories.
By Jonah Goldberg
There is a virulent form of unpatriotism festering in America today. Like an algae bloom that deprives life of oxygen, it starves democracy of the air of reason. It now thrives on what we call the far Left, but like a dead zone off the coast, it moves with the tides.
I am referring to the seditious dementia of conspiracy theories, the death of faith not in some mere administration or Congress but in America itself.
Havent you heard? The U.S. government blew up the World Trade Center. Oh, sorry, thats not right. The planes did knock down those buildings, but the White House was in on it. Oh, no, sorry again, thats not what happened. It was the Jews. They razed it without leaving any fingerprints save for the 4,000 Zionist co-conspirators who were tipped off in advance in order to frame the peace-loving Muslims of al Qaeda. (Those crafty Hebrews are always coming up with clever ways to make Islamic fanatics look bad, like getting blown up.) Bin Ladens admission that he did it? Well, of course. Hes in on it.
Presumably, Bushs demolition experts applied the same expertise to the levees in New Orleans. Thats another theory in wide circulation today thanks in no small part to Spike Lee, who gave it a fair airing in an HBO documentary.
The metaphysical, ontological stupidity of all this defies rational rebuttal. It would be like proving I didnt have unicorn for dinner in late December of 1987.
Heres a question: How is a president willing and able! to bring down the World Trade Center, murdering nearly 3,000 Americans without inspiring a single whistle-blower or attracting a solitary eyewitness, somehow morally or logistically incapable of planting some exculpatory WMDs in Iraq?
As for Spike & Co., what took Bush so long? Why wait for a hurricane? Oh, how he must have yearned, his men and equipment long in place, to cleanse America of the Big Easy. Oh joyous St. Katrinas Day! And yet, Bush failed to plan for the aftermath in a way that wouldnt defenestrate his poll numbers.
Stupidity isnt the right word for these dark imaginings, because some of these conspiracy theorists are very smart people. Nor is it fair to say they are all left-wingers. Indeed, two prominent 9/11 conspiracy theorists Morgan Reynolds and Paul Craig Roberts worked in Republican administrations and have strong conservative credentials. And let us not forget that in the 1990s, sweaty fingers pointed right-to-left. Under Clinton, it was the United Nations with its satellite office at the Rose Law Firm that imposed order with its fleet of black helicopters.
Conspiracy theorist isnt quite right either. These are priests of the Church of Conspiracy, a heresy of Gnostic heresy which holds that man is the ruler of history, the demiurge of all events that befall us. Powerful and unseen forces lurk in the shadows. The conspiracy theorists know theyre out there, even as the enemys name changes almost daily: Big Oil, capitalists, Republicans, or perhaps those eternal pullers of mankinds puppet strings, the Jews.
The masons of dementia build upon a bedrock of one absolute truth: Bad things happen, and someone must be responsible. Upon this bedrock they pile convenient and selective facts like bricks. Contradictory facts are clever lies. When Popular Mechanics debunked 9/11 hokum, the immediate response from conspiratorialists was cover-up! and CIA front! because in this perverted faith, denying the ultimate truth must be proof of a lie.
This rough beast slouches toward sedition because it assumes not that our leaders are knaves or even mere criminals, but that they are murderous Supermen with no loyalty to nation, decency or law. Our Constitution is a fraud, a charade for the rubes some of us naively call citizens. If you disagree, youre either fool or in on it. In his 1964 essay, The Paranoid Style in American Politics, Richard Hofstadter demonstrated that this fever of the mind is as old as America itself and its outbreaks flare up across the ideological landscape. What is so sad and frightening is that this diseased thinking is reaching epidemic proportions. More than a third of Americans believe the U.S. government was likely to have been involved in 9/11.
In the past, when these outbreaks occurred on the political right, liberal hand-wringers fretted about incipient fascism and rising McCarthyism. Today, the best we get from them is a bemused and sterile chuckle.
©2006 Tribune Media Services, Inc.
This is pretty much my opinion WRT the Tinfoil Hat Club.By Jonah Goldberg
There is a virulent form of unpatriotism festering in America today. Like an algae bloom that deprives life of oxygen, it starves democracy of the air of reason. It now thrives on what we call the far Left, but like a dead zone off the coast, it moves with the tides.
I am referring to the seditious dementia of conspiracy theories, the death of faith not in some mere administration or Congress but in America itself.
Havent you heard? The U.S. government blew up the World Trade Center. Oh, sorry, thats not right. The planes did knock down those buildings, but the White House was in on it. Oh, no, sorry again, thats not what happened. It was the Jews. They razed it without leaving any fingerprints save for the 4,000 Zionist co-conspirators who were tipped off in advance in order to frame the peace-loving Muslims of al Qaeda. (Those crafty Hebrews are always coming up with clever ways to make Islamic fanatics look bad, like getting blown up.) Bin Ladens admission that he did it? Well, of course. Hes in on it.
Presumably, Bushs demolition experts applied the same expertise to the levees in New Orleans. Thats another theory in wide circulation today thanks in no small part to Spike Lee, who gave it a fair airing in an HBO documentary.
The metaphysical, ontological stupidity of all this defies rational rebuttal. It would be like proving I didnt have unicorn for dinner in late December of 1987.
Heres a question: How is a president willing and able! to bring down the World Trade Center, murdering nearly 3,000 Americans without inspiring a single whistle-blower or attracting a solitary eyewitness, somehow morally or logistically incapable of planting some exculpatory WMDs in Iraq?
As for Spike & Co., what took Bush so long? Why wait for a hurricane? Oh, how he must have yearned, his men and equipment long in place, to cleanse America of the Big Easy. Oh joyous St. Katrinas Day! And yet, Bush failed to plan for the aftermath in a way that wouldnt defenestrate his poll numbers.
Stupidity isnt the right word for these dark imaginings, because some of these conspiracy theorists are very smart people. Nor is it fair to say they are all left-wingers. Indeed, two prominent 9/11 conspiracy theorists Morgan Reynolds and Paul Craig Roberts worked in Republican administrations and have strong conservative credentials. And let us not forget that in the 1990s, sweaty fingers pointed right-to-left. Under Clinton, it was the United Nations with its satellite office at the Rose Law Firm that imposed order with its fleet of black helicopters.
Conspiracy theorist isnt quite right either. These are priests of the Church of Conspiracy, a heresy of Gnostic heresy which holds that man is the ruler of history, the demiurge of all events that befall us. Powerful and unseen forces lurk in the shadows. The conspiracy theorists know theyre out there, even as the enemys name changes almost daily: Big Oil, capitalists, Republicans, or perhaps those eternal pullers of mankinds puppet strings, the Jews.
The masons of dementia build upon a bedrock of one absolute truth: Bad things happen, and someone must be responsible. Upon this bedrock they pile convenient and selective facts like bricks. Contradictory facts are clever lies. When Popular Mechanics debunked 9/11 hokum, the immediate response from conspiratorialists was cover-up! and CIA front! because in this perverted faith, denying the ultimate truth must be proof of a lie.
This rough beast slouches toward sedition because it assumes not that our leaders are knaves or even mere criminals, but that they are murderous Supermen with no loyalty to nation, decency or law. Our Constitution is a fraud, a charade for the rubes some of us naively call citizens. If you disagree, youre either fool or in on it. In his 1964 essay, The Paranoid Style in American Politics, Richard Hofstadter demonstrated that this fever of the mind is as old as America itself and its outbreaks flare up across the ideological landscape. What is so sad and frightening is that this diseased thinking is reaching epidemic proportions. More than a third of Americans believe the U.S. government was likely to have been involved in 9/11.
In the past, when these outbreaks occurred on the political right, liberal hand-wringers fretted about incipient fascism and rising McCarthyism. Today, the best we get from them is a bemused and sterile chuckle.
©2006 Tribune Media Services, Inc.
Charter Member of TFHC (with side "points" to disrupt the radio transmitter the gov't implanted in his fillings):
Recommended Wear of TFH:
Post by: client32 on September 13, 2006, 05:47:05 AM
Quote
More than a third of Americans believe the U.S. government was likely to have been involved in 9/11.
I find that hard to believe. 1/3? Really?
Post by: The Rabbi on September 13, 2006, 07:48:40 AM
Obviously an agent provacateur.
But I've seen posts here demonstrating fundamentally the same mentality.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on September 13, 2006, 11:13:02 AM
Quote from: client32
Quote
More than a third of Americans believe the U.S. government was likely to have been involved in 9/11.
I find that hard to believe. 1/3? Really?Post by: client32 on September 13, 2006, 11:51:01 AM
Quote
More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East, according to a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll.
Post by: Twycross on September 13, 2006, 12:38:23 PM
Quote
The level of suspicion of U.S. official involvement in a 9/11 conspiracy was only slightly behind the 40 percent who suspect "officials in the federal government were directly responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy" and the 38 percent who believe "the federal government is withholding proof of the existence of intelligent life from other planets."
Kinda makes you wonder whether this is really as big as it sounds.
Post by: Ben on September 14, 2006, 05:47:41 AM
Warning: Once you read it, you can't unread it. Proceed at your own risk!
---------------------------------
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22545_The_Mind_of_a_Truther#comments
The Mind of a Truther
Its How I Spent My 9/11 Vacation, Truther-style, penned with great effort and sincerity by Treez: Im back! - FearBush Forums. (Hat tip: ChenZhen.)
Reprinted in full because, well, its just so freaking hilarious that it should be preserved for all time.
Well, the day started at 4 a.m. when me and my boy got up to catch the 5:52 a.m. train to NYC from Philly. We arrived at Penn Station in Manhattan at 7:15 a.m.. As soon as we got up to ground level, 2 other dudes our age came over to us to bum a ciggerette. They noticed our custom T-shirts(as SOOOO many people did throughout the day) that we had gotten airbrushed the day before in Philly. Black T-shirts with Investigate in cursive writing accross the top of the shirt, then below that, a huge 9 and next to that the two towers forming an 11. But the dudes obviously didnt read above the 911 where it said investigate , and the one with the dreadlocks looked at us in utter confusion and asked yall dont REALLY beleive terrorists brought those buildings down, DO YOU?
Hell no dawgs, thats why it says INVESTIGATE. After realizing we were both citizens of Reality, we stood around and talked for a few minutes, smoked our Newports, then parted ways.Great start to the day. Then we flagged a cab, got in, told him Church and Fulton and we were off to ground zero. He dropped us off a few blocks away because traffic was blocked off for a few blocks radius of GZ. We walked up to GZ and arrived around 7:50 and began looking for fellow black shirts , which werent hard to find. The 9/11 Truth Movement all wore black T-shirts that said Investigate 9/11 on the front and had some other stuff on the back including a link to the LooseChange website. But immediately they started taking notice of me and my boys custom T-shirts and asking us to pose for pictures. I mustve posed for at least 10 pictures if not more, the shirts were a huge hit. Then a lady with a microphone came up and asked for an interview, and we agreed, but I just let my boy handle the interview and answer her questions.
Everyone was just standing around and there was a guy assembling a huge sign consisting of two huge wooden poles and a banner stretching between them. The banner said 9/11 was a US Black Op on one side, and USA did 911 on the reverse. Needing a helping hand, he just said out loud any 9/11 Truth people can give me a hand? . Since I was standing right there, I offered my assistance in holding one of the poles while he stapled the banner together. After the banner was erected, I guess that I was automatically assigned to holding one of the poles.
I guess during the process of putting up the sign, the Truth Movement had been told to relocate, because I looked around and suddenly the black shirts were no where in sight. Then the hate began. Some Jew looking dude in a suit came up to me and asked where are you from? I said PA , and he said you should go back to PA, ahole and walked away. It took me by suprise, and I started laughing, I thought about saying you should go back to Israel but instead just shouted to him you have a nice day too sir and smiled. Then some lady walked by the huge sign and said something dimented about you guys will pay in hell . Easily laughed at. Then as Im holding up the one end of the sign, I felt the sign being literally pulled down, lol, and looked and some idiot had grabbed the other pole and was wrestling to pull it down, I kept my end up and the cops grabbed the flaghead (literally, he was wearling a flag bandanna) and the other guy got control and the sign was back up.
Then some guy in a brown trechcoat with a notepad came up to me and asked if he could ask me some questions. I said sure. Whats your name? I gave him a fake name, then he asked who I was with. I told him I was with the 9/11 Truth Movement, he asked what that was and I told him its a loose knit group of people from all over the country who have unanswered questions about 9/11 that the official story doesnt answer and that we want a new, serious investigation into the attacks by people who arent biased like the original committee. He was about to ask another question, but I was approached by a police officer who said that we had to relocate with the sign. So we began walking up Church street carrying the sign. At one point I had given my end of the sign to my boy to carry and was walking along with them. Some lady came up and said something about ahole this or that , I said Maam, were not the ones being disrespectufl and hateful, were only asking question, like why did WTC 7 fall down? She walked away mumbling about aholes.
Anywayz, that was the most hectic it got, the walk up the street, we were feeling the hate big time, all the suits and ties were pissed at us for questioning things, they hate Arabs so bad that anyone asking questions that might lead to Arabs not being responisible might as well be Arab. Disgusting, and to think that these are the same type of people that worked in the towers and were killed who I travelled from PA to speak up for, its sad.
Anywayz, we were led by the police up to Trinity and Cedar. At Trinity and Cedar, the entire park there was full of black shirts, throughout the day, Trinity and Cedar became known as Camp Freedom, because it was nothing but the Truth Movement there.
So were holding this big ass sign on the pavement at Trinity and Cedar, and one of the best moments of the day for me happened. A police officer approached me and said I think you guys are doing a great thing, I support you guys. I dont think you are the bad guys at all, like I said, yous are doing a good thing here. But I need you to take down that sign because its a crowded area and if it were to fall, people could be injured. I said no problem sir, and thank you for the kind words. Then I told the dude whos sign it was that the cop said it had to come down because of the safety concern, he protested, but I put my end down and went into Camp Freedom to mingle with the other Truth members.
So Im standing there with my boy, and I look over, and I notice Corey Rowe (one of the guys who made Loose Change). I said Corey Dylan!! then corrected myself... yooooooooooo Corey Rowe, whats up!! he shook my hand and said thanks for showing up and complimented me on my shirt. Then me and my boy went to this place called Pinnina Bread or something to get some food. When we came back to Camp Freedom, we started talking to these other dudes (the boy my age was from NYC and his dad was a firefighter that got his lungs *expletive deleted*ed up working at ground zero) and he said that Alex Jones was there. So I started looking for him (Alex). And there he was.
Now, the worst moment of my day happened. I went up to Alex, and said Alex, could I get a quick picture taken with you? He said he had to make a phone call real quick, I said hey take your time man. So boom, he got off the phone and came over to me. I told my boy to get ready to take the picture. Me and Alex shook hands for a few seconds and then we parted ways.
I was happy and wanted to smoke weed now, so me and my boy took a walk and found an empty alleyway to smoke in. Then when I was lighting up, my boy started freestyling and said I hate to see how Trees hearts gon be breakin/ cuz him and Alex parted ways before the picture was taken
What he just said sank in and I said NUH UH!!?!? STOP PLAYIN!!!!! He had taken too long bringing up the camera options on his cellphone and didnt get the shot!!!!! I was pissed at him, for a long time. Still kinda mad at him. After we smoked, we walked by a bar and I said he had to buy me a double of Jack Daniels for *expletive deleted*in my picture up, so we went in the bar and got a little buzz on. Then we headed back to Camp Freedom at Trinity and Cedar. Word was that at 2 pm, after they finished reading the victims names at Ground Zero, Alex was gonna go down and speak on the megaphone at GZ. So me and my boy went to get something to eat.
When we came out, the boy I seen earlier that told me about Alex said yo, youre boy Immortal Technique is here somewhere, hes down by Ground Zero . This wouldve made up for the lost Alex Jones picture, but I never ran into Imortal Technique. Anywayz, we chilled in Freedom Park for an hour or so before 2 pm came and we headed to GZ.
By now, the flagheads rolled out and the 9/11 Truth Movement controlled Ground Zero. The police showed up with big rubber bullet firing machine guns and lined both sides of the street. Both sides of Church Street, maybe it was Fulton, but anywayz, BOTH SIDES of the street were filled with Black Shirts and Alex Jones took the Megaphone. Alex spit facts and led the crowd in chants of 9/11 was an inside job, 911 was an inside job, 911 was an inside job!! The Truth movement was massive, and the media completely DISAPPEARED. At one point, an ABC news van drove down the street in front of us and were BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOed and screamed at to do your job!!! .
Anywayz, that went on for a while, and then the movement began walking to 120 Broadway, where Larry Silverstiens office is. The police blocked off 2 lanes of traffic and the Truth Movement gathered in the middle of the street. Alex Jones got on the megaphone again and started speaking about WTC 7 and other things. In the hour or so we were there, we chanted Pull it! pull it! pull it! and murderer! murderer! murderer! among other sayings like 911 was an inside job, we have the proof, so face the truth! After that, the Truth Movement marched to Police HQ, but me and my boy were both tired as *expletive deleted*it and beat, so we decided to head back to Penn Station.
It was a great experience all together. One thing I took away from it was the fact that something so massive could take place, so many people from all over could gather and voice an opinion, and the media could black it out as if it never happened. Its upsetting. I was there, it was massive, and no one I know that watched the news yesterday seen it.
Another thing I couldnt help but notice was the respect, concern, and love that the 9/11 Truth Movement represented. And on the other side, the hate and anger and wickedness of the so called ordinary people. They could not debate one fact, they couldnt talk without cursing or offending whoever they were talking to. To think that if it were them who died in the towers, and I had been there fighting for truth and wanting to know what happened to them, how unworthy they would be to protest for. Im absolutely sure that there were good people that died in the towers, and not all evil hateful monsters like those there yesterday pretending to mourn. I dedicate my protest to any good person that died in the buildings, but its sad to say, those people I encountered yesterday in mass, are not worth protesting for. Next time theyre government kills them, I might just stay home and be quiet.
Post by: client32 on September 14, 2006, 08:09:52 AM
What are the odds that the cop this guy is so enamored with actually believes what he said, or simply found an easy way for them to drop the sign?
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on September 14, 2006, 11:05:27 AM
Seriously, what's going on in the country? Is there somehting in the water?
Post by: wingnutx on September 14, 2006, 12:38:27 PM
Post by: LAK on September 15, 2006, 01:46:40 AM
Ask Mr Goldberg who exactly were, and what happened to, the little group of five cheering Israelis in NY on September 11th, 2001 - people like Dominik Otto Suter and his "Urban Moving Systems" - and he might suddenly find something else very pressing to find in one of his desk drawers.
The most ridiculous conspiracy theory is the story George W Bush and fellow puppets fed people via their media cronies. The so-called "9/11 Report" by the so-called "Independent Commission" would be hysterically funny were it not for the seriousness of the subject matter. You really need some kind of headwear - and a liberal dose of Ritalin - to believe that one, even if the deliberate blocking or suppression of information and investigation, destruction of evidence, lies and omissions, testimony and evidence to the contrary were not present.
The meddling within our government by foreign agencies, and the astounding (and unaccounted for) acts of interference on the part of some of our own government officials in the period leading up to, during, and since 9/11 ought to be the subject of Congressional hearings with subpoena powers, severe criminal penalties - with a long list of people placed under oath and questioned.
Citizens of this country being handed seventy-five question "census" forms - the completion of which is mandated under penalties of severely heavy fines - under the current administration might finally ring a historical bell with some people in this country.
If Al Kidya were what these puppets and their mouthpieces want you to believe they are - they would have had this country at a standstill, on the verge of chaos, in less than a month of 9/11. Not five months later, not five years later.
=============================
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
Post by: The Rabbi on September 15, 2006, 02:32:33 AM
Quote from: LAK
The people that write this trash attempt to assume the high ground, usually because they have the lines - some directly - into the convenient avenues of media. The "right" - as in "correct" - media of course.
Ask Mr Goldberg who exactly were, and what happened to, the little group of five cheering Israelis in NY on September 11th, 2001 - people like Dominik Otto Suter and his "Urban Moving Systems" - and he might suddenly find something else very pressing to find in one of his desk drawers.
The most ridiculous conspiracy theory is the story George W Bush and fellow puppets fed people via their media cronies. The so-called "9/11 Report" by the so-called "Independent Commission" would be hysterically funny were it not for the seriousness of the subject matter. You really need some kind of headwear - and a liberal dose of Ritalin - to believe that one, even if the deliberate blocking or suppression of information and investigation, destruction of evidence, lies and omissions, testimony and evidence to the contrary were not present.
The meddling within our government by foreign agencies, and the astounding (and unaccounted for) acts of interference on the part of some of our own government officials in the period leading up to, during, and since 9/11 ought to be the subject of Congressional hearings with subpoena powers, severe criminal penalties - with a long list of people placed under oath and questioned.
Citizens of this country being handed seventy-five question "census" forms - the completion of which is mandated under penalties of severely heavy fines - under the current administration might finally ring a historical bell with some people in this country.
If Al Kidya were what these puppets and their mouthpieces want you to believe they are - they would have had this country at a standstill, on the verge of chaos, in less than a month of 9/11. Not five months later, not five years later.
=============================
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
I thought we got rid of that Blackburn troll.
Ask Mr Goldberg who exactly were, and what happened to, the little group of five cheering Israelis in NY on September 11th, 2001 - people like Dominik Otto Suter and his "Urban Moving Systems" - and he might suddenly find something else very pressing to find in one of his desk drawers.
The most ridiculous conspiracy theory is the story George W Bush and fellow puppets fed people via their media cronies. The so-called "9/11 Report" by the so-called "Independent Commission" would be hysterically funny were it not for the seriousness of the subject matter. You really need some kind of headwear - and a liberal dose of Ritalin - to believe that one, even if the deliberate blocking or suppression of information and investigation, destruction of evidence, lies and omissions, testimony and evidence to the contrary were not present.
The meddling within our government by foreign agencies, and the astounding (and unaccounted for) acts of interference on the part of some of our own government officials in the period leading up to, during, and since 9/11 ought to be the subject of Congressional hearings with subpoena powers, severe criminal penalties - with a long list of people placed under oath and questioned.
Citizens of this country being handed seventy-five question "census" forms - the completion of which is mandated under penalties of severely heavy fines - under the current administration might finally ring a historical bell with some people in this country.
If Al Kidya were what these puppets and their mouthpieces want you to believe they are - they would have had this country at a standstill, on the verge of chaos, in less than a month of 9/11. Not five months later, not five years later.
=============================
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
Post by: Ron on September 15, 2006, 03:30:03 AM
Don't recall too many ad hominems from him, he is just your garden variety leftist who enjoys debate.
edited to add, he may be a liberal or anarchist, memory fails and I don't have time to look it up. Been around awhile though and I don't have any bad feelings so he must be ok even if we don't agree.
Post by: auschip on September 15, 2006, 04:08:32 AM
Quote
Ask Mr Goldberg who exactly were, and what happened to, the little group of five cheering Israelis in NY on September 11th, 2001 - people like Dominik Otto Suter and his "Urban Moving Systems" - and he might suddenly find something else very pressing to find in one of his desk drawers.
Watch the documentary "Protocols of Zion" by Marc Levin. It's an interesting documentary about the advent and use of The Protocols of the learned Edelers of Zion in current society. They discuss the "5 cheering Israelis", and even show snippets of interviews they provided after the fact.
Post by: roo_ster on September 15, 2006, 04:56:45 AM
(Unless it was a parody making fun of the nutball fringe. It can be hard to tell the difference at times. In that case, "Bravo!" for capturing the author's intent so very well!)
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on September 15, 2006, 05:44:12 AM
Post by: client32 on September 15, 2006, 05:49:08 AM
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
I'm confused...
My too, but I'm always that way.
Post by: Art Eatman on September 15, 2006, 06:08:32 AM
Shiny side out! And always remember: Dr. Goebbels was absolutely correct with his statement, "If you tell a big enough lie, often enough, people will begin to believe it."
Art
Post by: auschip on September 15, 2006, 06:34:32 AM
Quote from: Art Eatman
"Protocols of Zion"? Hey, the original of that garbage was written by Jew-haters and Jew-baiters; it's as phony now as it was X-hundred years ago.
Shiny side out! And always remember: Dr. Goebbels was absolutely correct with his statement, "If you tell a big enough lie, often enough, people will begin to believe it."
Art
Absolutely, and the documentary with a similar name talks about how it is still being represented as true today. It even goes into the history of the book, talks to people who believe it to be true (and those who admit it is a lie), and debunks alot of other myths (eg no Jewish people died in 9-11 etc).Shiny side out! And always remember: Dr. Goebbels was absolutely correct with his statement, "If you tell a big enough lie, often enough, people will begin to believe it."
Art
It's available through NetFlix if you are a member.
http://www.independentfilm.com/films/protocols-of-zion-marc-levin.shtml an interview with Marc, and more info about the movie.
Post by: LAK on September 17, 2006, 02:52:30 AM
There is a pile of evidence that the official story is a fraud, and that the targets were no surprize. The "Independent Commission" and it's report a bad joke. It was as superficial as something out of the Reader's Digest; something like a half a page - with no specifics - covering the funding of the attacks.
Art's comment on big lies is very apt. Goebbels would be proud indeed.
GoRon exhibits the classic current political dimentia - attempting to label a conservative a "leftist". As I have pointed out to one member on this forum recently, and several others over a few years on TFL and THR, I am hardly a "leftist". It is a great number of conservatives who are not blind to the lies flowing out of Washington DC from a so-called "conservative" administration - nor the omissions they have made.
Your leftists are actually running the WH under the current administration - as have their parallel party called "the democrats" in the past.
--------------------------------------------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
Post by: Ron on September 17, 2006, 04:05:53 AM
Quote
Your leftists are actually running the WH under the current administration - as have their parallel party called "the democrats" in the past.
Actually I agree that the current administration is leftist in its view of the role of government.I really wasn't trying to label you as anything, I just remember butting heads in a thread over at THR some time ago.
Post by: The Rabbi on September 17, 2006, 04:31:35 AM
Yes, LAK, it was an Israeli operation to blow up the WTC. But theywere ordered to do so by the Pope, who pulls the strings in that country. I dont mean Benedict but rather Elvis, who is very much alive and very pissed off about the way he was treated.
Post by: Art Eatman on September 17, 2006, 04:55:27 AM
A "sorta buddy" of mine has notebooks full of "evidence" that the Holocaust didn't happen. Yeah. Xerox copies of newspaper-type articles by other deniers. I asked the guy why'd he'd want to call my father a liar. He sez, "Huh?" I sez, "My father was THERE!" The camps existed. The people were brutalized and murdered. (Etcl, etc.) I further went on to tell this idiot that I had served in the Army with Lifer M/Sgts who had also been here, there and yonder in Germany in 1945 and 1946. They had seen. They had talked to survivors.
I saw MovieTone newsreels in 1945 of survivors being released. Staged? Er, uh, how do you persuade people to starve themselves down to sixty and seventy pounds? And in a month or two? Those tattoos were all part of the "plot"?
Guess what. The guy just shook his head; what I'd said had no meaning to him.
The latest I've run across: The drop in gasoline prices is an oil company plot to help the Republicans win the next elections.
Buy stock in Reynolds or Alcoa.
Art
Post by: Ron on September 17, 2006, 05:03:45 AM
The 9/11 commission wasn't covering up a conspiracy. It was trying to cover up incompetence.
Post by: Art Eatman on September 17, 2006, 05:05:36 AM
That structural engineers have given rational explanations doesn't matter to a Liberal Arts major who flunked math.
Oh, and it couldn't have been an airliner that hit the Pentagon, because there weren't pieces of airplane obviously visible after the crash.
Hey, eyewitnesses are unreliable, right? And read Fred On Everything's comments"
http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm
Excerpt:
"But&how many Jews do you suppose worked in the towers? New York being New York, and the towers being full of lawyers and commercial people, the answer has to be A Whole Bunch. Lets think about this.
I picture Rachel Goldstein, a tower slave, in her apartment at night when the phone rings.
Rachel: Hello.
Voice: Rachel. This is Mossad.
Rachel: Oh, hi! Im Mahatma Gandhi.
Voice: No, Rachel. This really is Mossad.
Rachel: This really is Mahat&.
Voice: Honest. Really, really. Cross my heart and hope&.
Rachel: Take your medication. Click."
******************
Y'know, I think maybe a tinfoil hat get you an extra vote at the polling place. There's gotta be SOME explanation for the mess we're in.
Art
Post by: The Rabbi on September 17, 2006, 06:37:16 AM
Post by: De Selby on September 17, 2006, 06:49:59 AM
To all the Mossad/Bush conspiracy believers:
You can come up with as many "facts" as you want, as many "impossible coincidences" as you want, but you'll never convince me that a theory involving a secret Jewish plot to destroy the twin towers is anything other base anti-semitism. Adding that you don't think Israel is populated by Jews and that most Jews are really "Khazars" or something else doesn't make it any less obvious that anti-semitism is the real motivation for these claims.
Especially given the special place that American Jews have in New York's history and culture, it's downright offensive and un-American to even hint that Jews had a part in this crime.
Post by: The Rabbi on September 17, 2006, 07:44:49 AM
Post by: LAK on September 17, 2006, 12:34:25 PM
Of course the events of 9/11 were the result of a conspiracy. Such an operation could not have come about without one. It is only a question of which conspiracy by whom.
The explanation issued by the leftists in Washington reads like a fairytale; complete with conveniently skipped evidence to the contrary - and "magic" turning the highly improbable into easy "reality".
Leftists are good at that kind of thing.
The Rabbi,
Instead of dodging - why not simply explain concerning these cheering "allies" we had watching and filming the events of 9/11?
This is just one gaping hole in the fairytale from Washington DC, but in order for any objectivity one much start with one subject, and see it to an actual conclusion. This is what should have been done by the so-called Independent Commission.
GoRon,
Funny, I am sure I saw the word "leftist" in there somewhere
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Post by: The Rabbi on September 17, 2006, 01:02:18 PM
It is obvious. Those Israelis were cheering the success of their operation. They had been commanded by Mossad, which is controlled by the Pope, as mentioned, to blow up the WTC. He wanted this done in order to discredit Muslims in general so Pres Bush would declare war on Iraq. Of course there was no connection between Iraq and the 9/11 hijackers but they intuited that Bush would fall for it anyway. They were hoping he would declare war on Saudi Arabia but since Bush is a tool of the Saudis that didnt happen.
Anyway, Karl Rove, who is secretly employed by Mossad as well, along with Israel's "Amen Corner" in Washington, persuaded Bush to engage in an unpopular war in Iraq in order to help Israel. A majority of Congress went along with this since they are controlled by the Masons. Rove wanted Bsush to finish with the lowest ratings of any president because Israel secreetly wanted a Democratic president they could control better. Someone like Kerry, whose grandfather was Jewish after all.
Do you see? It all makes sense. Just connect the dots!
Post by: HForrest on September 17, 2006, 02:16:46 PM
Post by: Warbow on September 17, 2006, 02:38:30 PM
Quote from: LAK
Ask Mr Goldberg who exactly were, and what happened to, the little group of five cheering Israelis in NY on September 11th, 2001 - people like Dominik Otto Suter and his "Urban Moving Systems" - and he might suddenly find something else very pressing to find in one of his desk drawers.
Where can we see this video of the cheering Israelis?
Post by: The Rabbi on September 17, 2006, 04:22:29 PM
Quote from: Warbow
Quote from: LAK
Ask Mr Goldberg who exactly were, and what happened to, the little group of five cheering Israelis in NY on September 11th, 2001 - people like Dominik Otto Suter and his "Urban Moving Systems" - and he might suddenly find something else very pressing to find in one of his desk drawers.
Where can we see this video of the cheering Israelis?I doubt there was such an incident. I doubt there is anyone named "Dominick Otto Suter". I doubt there is an "Urban Moving Systems." There is no credible report of any of this outside of paranoid blogs and tinfoil hat bearing web sites.
Post by: LAK on September 18, 2006, 12:00:43 AM
.................Thursday, September 13, 2001 :
FRONT | IRELAND | SPORT | WORLD | BUSINESS | ENTERTAINMENT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suspects `filmed New York atrocities'
2:51:49 PM
There are reports five men suspected of being involved in the attack on the World Trade Centre set up cameras to record the atrocity.
The men set up cameras by the Hudson River and trained them on the twin towers.
The New York Times reports they congratulated each other when the crashes occurred.
The five are under investigation by police in Union City, New Jersey, but it is unclear if any of them are in custody.
The allegation came as police in New Jersey told the New York Times the hijackers who left from Newark airport on the flight which crashed in Pennsylvania had received aid from associates in the area.
The paper reported law officials said the team was "aided by confederates in Newark who were responsible for logistical support, including money, rental cars, credit cards and lodging".
And it emerged that FBI investigators believe each team of hijackers acted independently from each other but under orders from a supreme commander.
The conclusion was reached after evidence from the flights' passenger lists, payphone records, evidence taken from the rental car seized in Boston and the frantic phone calls made from the hijacked planes.
It was the commander who selected the flights to be hijacked and orchestrated the attacks to occur at about the same time.
But the man has not been publicly identified by investigators, the New York Times reports. His whereabouts are currently unknown.
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2001/09/13/story23625.asp
====================================
Monday, September 17, 2001 Elul 29, 5761 Israel Time: 00:01 (GMT+3)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monday, September 17, 2001 Elul 29, 5761 Israel Time: 00:01 (GMT+3)
Ha'aretz
English edition
Five Israelis detained for "puzzling behavior" after WTC tragedy
By Yossi Melman
FIVE Israelis who had worked for a moving company based in New Jersey are being held in U.S. prisons for what the Federal Bureau of Investigation has described as "puzzling behavior" following the terror attack on the World Trade Center in New York last Tuesday. The five are expected to be deported sometime soon.
The families of the five, who asked that their names not be released, said that their sons had been questioned by the FBI for hours on end, had been kept in solitary confinement for three days, and had been humiliated, stripped of their clothes and blindfolded.
The mother of one of the young men explained the chain of events as she understands it to Ha'aretz:
She said that the five had worked for the company, which is owned by an Israeli, for between two months and two years. They had been arrested some four hours after the attack on the Twin Towers while filming the smoking skyline from the roof of their company's building, she said. It appears that they were spotted by one of the neighbors who called the police and the FBI.
The mother said that the families and friends of the five in Israel had known nothing of the men's whereabouts for a number of days.
"When they finally let my son make a phone call for the first time to a friend in the United States two days ago, he told him that he had been tortured by the FBI in a basement," the mother said. "He was stripped to his underwear; he was blindfolded and questioned for 14 hours. They thought that because he has citizenship of a European country as well as of Israel that he was working for the Mossad [Israel's secret service]."
Seven FBI agents later stormed the apartment of one of the Israelis, searched it and questioned his roommate. The Israeli owner of the company, who has U.S. citizenship, was also questioned. Both men were subsequently released.
The families here complained that the Israeli consulate in New York and the situation room set up by the Foreign Ministry there to locate missing Israelis had done nothing to help their sons. The Foreign Ministry told the families that the FBI had denied holding the five and that the consulate had chosen to believe the FBI, the mother said.
The five were transferred out of the FBI's facility on Saturday morning and are now being held in two prisons in New Jersey by the Immigration and Naturalization Services. They are charged with illegally residing in the United States and working there without permits.
The Foreign Ministry said in response that it had been informed by the consulate in New York that the FBI had arrested the five for "puzzling behavior." They are said to have had been caught videotaping the disaster and shouting in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=75266&sw=mockery#top
[END]
.........There's two.
Let's hear all about them.
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Post by: The Rabbi on September 18, 2006, 02:16:43 AM
I could go on and on about how this is hardly a "smoking gun" of Israeli involvement. How many people filmed the event? I'll bet lots. There are reasonable interpretations of all these things, much more so than some devilish Israeli plot.
It is utter BS. It exists only in the fetid minds of people who correspond to the description given at the opening post.
Post by: 280plus on September 18, 2006, 03:17:46 AM
I'd say it just goes to show that ~1/3 of the population is pretty much mindless, I mean them tabloids just sell and sell, think about it.
oh, and +1 to what the Rabbi just said...
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 18, 2006, 03:24:56 AM
"In this corner, weighing in at 199 pounds of conspiracy-squashing meshuga muscle, it's the Ragin' Rabbi!"
OK, that was lame.
Post by: 280plus on September 18, 2006, 03:34:35 AM
Either that or we all go to the same online shoot 'em up game and duke it out there.
"That's it! Meet me over at Delta Force III with knives and pistols!!!
Post by: Ron on September 18, 2006, 03:56:27 AM
To me the above is just unconfirmed reports and two stories that are unrelated to each other. To LAK they fit his preconceptions and are another brick in the conspiracy wall he is building.
The stories fit into a framework he already has developed.
To me they are thin gruel when it comes to any facts.
Post by: The Rabbi on September 18, 2006, 04:17:52 AM
Quote from: fistful
Can we arrange boxing matches between APS members? Boy, that could be entertaining.
"In this corner, weighing in at 199 pounds of conspiracy-squashing meshuga muscle, it's the Ragin' Rabbi!"
OK, that was lame.
I unfortunately weigh a good bit more than 199 "In this corner, weighing in at 199 pounds of conspiracy-squashing meshuga muscle, it's the Ragin' Rabbi!"
OK, that was lame.
.
Post by: roo_ster on September 18, 2006, 05:31:17 AM
Any of y'all civil engineers feel free to correct the following.
I recall, somewhere in the back of my brain, that some of the Manhattan shorelines are dredged up bits of river bottom used to make Manhattan Island bigger. This technique has been in use a long time.
One downside to this technique is that the artifically built-up areas are much more prone to seismic damage. For example, the more recent SanFran/Oakland earthquake was much less damaging to structures built on bedrock or ground NOT dedged up from bay/sea bottom.
The reason is that the seismic waves are attenuated in natural, put there by Gawd, rock & soils. when the wave hits the dredged up soils, the waves' amplitude goes nutso and shakes the bejeezus outta the soil & structures.
Usually, siesmic waves are no BFD in New York...unless a couple of hundred-story buildings happen to collapse across the street.
FWIW, I do not know if the Port Auth soils are former river bottom.
Post by: Art Eatman on September 18, 2006, 07:51:15 AM
jfruser, you're right about what would happen with shaking on mud fill, but I've no idea about the soil/rock of that part of Manhattan.
My problem with a lot of these conspiracies is that they assume way too much competence on the part of the conspirers, and that none of them ever engage in pillow talk or booze talk. I'm just way too old to toss out my decades of watching people and learning what they do.
Digressing off toward the "one-world conspiracy" crowd, heck, many people have openly--for many decades--spoken in favor of some sort of centralized world government. It can't work, of course; absent a China-style government, no government now is totally in control of its people, or actually functioning in any efficient manner. One world? Pipe dream. How is it a conspiracy to talk openly about your ideas? The Tri-Lats and the CFR even publish their ideas; you can get a copy of the monthly/quarterly stuff. Go Google.
Wendell Wilkie didn't call for a world government in his "One World"; he wanted more international cooperation among all governments, in the view that "we're all in this together".
Bilderbergs, et al? Hey, like-minded people of mutual interest gather together. The Bildies are money people; Rotary and the Lions Club have a different focus.
Money people want to make more money, which is why there is no Grand Conspiracy to wreck the US economy, Ralph Nader to the contrary (from interview with the fat guy who has (had?) a radio show out of White City, Florida "We The People" or something like that.). We buy more Stuff than anybody else on the planet. Sellers want customers with big billfolds, last time I went to a gunshow.
Shiny side out.
, Art
Post by: 280plus on September 18, 2006, 07:57:18 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center
Post by: Warbow on September 18, 2006, 11:17:18 AM
Quote from: The Rabbi
Neither one mentions anything about cheering. The first one doesnt say anything about Israelis. The reports are anonymous and unsubstantiated. No one has been charged with anything.
I could go on and on about how this is hardly a "smoking gun" of Israeli involvement. How many people filmed the event? I'll bet lots. There are reasonable interpretations of all these things, much more so than some devilish Israeli plot.
It is utter BS. It exists only in the fetid minds of people who correspond to the description given at the opening post.
+1
I could go on and on about how this is hardly a "smoking gun" of Israeli involvement. How many people filmed the event? I'll bet lots. There are reasonable interpretations of all these things, much more so than some devilish Israeli plot.
It is utter BS. It exists only in the fetid minds of people who correspond to the description given at the opening post.
Post by: LAK on September 19, 2006, 02:55:52 AM
This was widely reported for a very short time; there are a great many articles that are no longer accessible as is the habit with much popular media.
To say that they are "anonymous" is a moot point; is the Ha'aretz in the habit of publishing articles out of thin air based on "nothing"? Interesting; you dismiss an article posted and retained to this day by the Ha'aretz. Would you be so dismissive if the article had made reference to some obscure neo nazi group - or dancing palestinians after an attack in Tel Aviv? I think not.
Popular media is full of anon-attributed stories when government agencies, the military etc is involved. I would hardly call the Ha'aretz a likely source - or vehicle - for some maliciously fabricated anti-Israeli propaganda.
You say there is nothing about "cheering", to quote verabatem from the Ha'aretz article:
Quote
They are said to have had been caught videotaping the disaster and shouting in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery
And what else could it have been interpreted as? Wailing? They were wailing? Were they perhaps jumping up and down .. with anguish?Quote
On the day of the disaster, three of the five boys went up on the roof of the building where the company office is located," said Gordon. "I'm not sure if they saw the twin towers collapse, but, in any event, they photographed the ruins right afterwards. One of the neighbors who saw them called the police and claimed they were posing, dancing and laughing, against the background of the burning towers. The five denied dancing. I presume the neighbor was not near them and does not understand Hebrew. Furthermore, the neighbor complained that the cheerful gang on the roof spoke Arabic. As far as I understand it, that neighbor has had previous problems with the company, and she could have been waiting for an opportunity to avenge the owners.
"Anyhow, the three left the roof, took an Urban truck, and drove to a parking lot, located about a five-minute drive from the offices. They parked, stood on the roof of the truck to get a better view of the destroyed towers and took photographs. A woman who was in the building above the lot testified that she saw them smiling and exchanging high-fives. She and another neighbor called the police and reported on Middle-Eastern looking people dancing on the truck. They copied and reported the license plates.
http://www.gothamgazette.com/citizen/jan02/7.shtml"Anyhow, the three left the roof, took an Urban truck, and drove to a parking lot, located about a five-minute drive from the offices. They parked, stood on the roof of the truck to get a better view of the destroyed towers and took photographs. A woman who was in the building above the lot testified that she saw them smiling and exchanging high-fives. She and another neighbor called the police and reported on Middle-Eastern looking people dancing on the truck. They copied and reported the license plates.
-----------
The White Van
Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies?
June 21 Millions saw the horrific images of the World Trade Center attacks, and those who saw them won't forget them. But a New Jersey homemaker saw something that morning that prompted an investigation into five young Israelis and their possible connection to Israeli intelligence.
Maria, who asked us not to use her last name, had a view of the World Trade Center from her New Jersey apartment building. She remembers a neighbor calling her shortly after the first plane hit the towers.
She grabbed her binoculars and watched the destruction unfolding in lower Manhattan. But as she watched the disaster, something else caught her eye.
Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. "They seemed to be taking a movie," Maria said.
The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know & They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.
She found the behavior so suspicious that she wrote down the license plate number of the van and called the police. Before long, the FBI was also on the scene, and a statewide bulletin was issued on the van.
The plate number was traced to a van owned by a company called Urban Moving. Around 4 p.m. on Sept. 11, the van was spotted on a service road off Route 3, near New Jersey's Giants Stadium. A police officer pulled the van over, finding five men, between 22 and 27 years old, in the vehicle. The men were taken out of the van at gunpoint and handcuffed by police.
The arresting officers said they saw a lot that aroused their suspicion about the men. One of the passengers had $4,700 in cash hidden in his sock. Another was carrying two foreign passports. A box cutter was found in the van. But perhaps the biggest surprise for the officers came when the five men identified themselves as Israeli citizens.
We Are Not Your Problem
According to the police report, one of the passengers told the officers they had been on the West Side Highway in Manhattan "during the incident" referring to the World Trade Center attack. The driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers, "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem." The other passengers were his brother Paul Kurzberg, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari.
When the men were transferred to jail, the case was transferred out of the FBI's Criminal Division, and into the bureau's Foreign Counterintelligence Section, which is responsible for espionage cases, ABCNEWS has learned.
One reason for the shift, sources told ABCNEWS, was that the FBI believed Urban Moving may have been providing cover for an Israeli intelligence operation.
After the five men were arrested, the FBI got a warrant and searched Urban Moving's Weehawken, N.J., offices.
The FBI searched Urban Moving's offices for several hours, removing boxes of documents and a dozen computer hard drives. The FBI also questioned Urban Moving's owner. His attorney insists that his client answered all of the FBI's questions. But when FBI agents tried to interview him again a few days later, he was gone.
Three months later 2020's cameras photographed the inside of Urban Moving, and it looked as if the business had been shut down in a big hurry. Cell phones were lying around; office phones were still connected; and the property of dozens of clients remained in the warehouse.
The owner had also cleared out of his New Jersey home, put it up for sale and returned with his family to Israel.
A Scary Situation
Steven Gordon, the attorney for the five Israeli detainees, acknowledged that his clients' actions on Sept. 11 would easily have aroused suspicions. "You got a group of guys that are taking pictures, on top of a roof, of the World Trade Center. They're speaking in a foreign language. They got two passports on 'em. One's got a wad of cash on him, and they got box cutters. Now that's a scary situation."
But Gordon insisted that his clients were just five young men who had come to America for a vacation, ended up working for a moving company, and were taking pictures of the event.
The five Israelis were held at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, ostensibly for overstaying their tourist visas and working in the United States illegally. Two weeks after their arrest, an immigration judge ordered them to be deported. But sources told ABCNEWS that FBI and CIA officials in Washington put a hold on the case.
The five men were held in detention for more than two months. Some of them were placed in solitary confinement for 40 days, and some of them were given as many as seven lie-detector tests.
Plenty of Speculation
Since their arrest, plenty of speculation has swirled about the case, and what the five men were doing that morning. Eventually, The Forward, a respected Jewish newspaper in New York, reported the FBI concluded that two of the men were Israeli intelligence operatives.
Vince Cannistraro, a former chief of operations for counterterrorism with the CIA who is now a consultant for ABCNEWS, said federal authorities' interest in the case was heightened when some of the men's names were found in a search of a national intelligence database.
Israeli Intelligence Connection?
According to Cannistraro, many people in the U.S. intelligence community believed that some of the men arrested were working for Israeli intelligence. Cannistraro said there was speculation as to whether Urban Moving had been "set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists in the area, particularly in the New Jersey-New York area."
Under this scenario, the alleged spying operation was not aimed against the United States, but at penetrating or monitoring radical fund-raising and support networks in Muslim communities like Paterson, N.J., which was one of the places where several of the hijackers lived in the months prior to Sept. 11.
For the FBI, deciphering the truth from the five Israelis proved to be difficult. One of them, Paul Kurzberg, refused to take a lie-detector test for 10 weeks then failed it, according to his lawyer. Another of his lawyers told us Kurzberg had been reluctant to take the test because he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country.
Sources say the Israelis were targeting these fund-raising networks because they were thought to be channeling money to Hamas and Islamic Jihad, groups that are responsible for most of the suicide bombings in Israel. "[The] Israeli government has been very concerned about the activity of radical Islamic groups in the United States that could be a support apparatus to Hamas and Islamic Jihad," Cannistraro said.
The men denied that they had been working for Israeli intelligence out of the New Jersey moving company, and Ram Horvitz, their Israeli attorney, dismissed the allegations as "stupid and ridiculous."
Mark Regev, the spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington, goes even further, asserting the issue was never even discussed with U.S. officials.
"These five men were not involved in any intelligence operation in the United States, and the American intelligence authorities have never raised this issue with us," Regev said. "The story is simply false."
No Pre-Knowledge
Despite the denials, sources tell ABCNEWS there is still debate within the FBI over whether or not the young men were spies. Many U.S. government officials still believe that some of them were on a mission for Israeli intelligence. But the FBI told ABCNEWS, "To date, this investigation has not identified anybody who in this country had pre-knowledge of the events of 9/11."
Sources also said that even if the men were spies, there is no evidence to conclude they had advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. The investigation, at the end of the day, after all the polygraphs, all of the field work, all the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advance knowledge of 9/11," Cannistraro noted.
As to what they were doing on the van, they say they read about the attack on the Internet, couldn't see it from their offices and went to the parking lot for a better view. But no one has been able to find a good explanation for why they may have been smiling with the towers of the World Trade Center burning in the background. Both the lawyers for the young men and the Israeli Embassy chalk it up to immature conduct.
According to ABCNEWS sources, Israeli and U.S. government officials worked out a deal and after 71 days, the five Israelis were taken out of jail, put on a plane, and deported back home.
While the former detainees refused to answer ABCNEWS' questions about their detention and what they were doing on Sept. 11, several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home.
Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event."
ABCNEWS' Chris Isham, John Miller, Glenn Silber and Chris Vlasto contributed to this report. Copyright © 2002 ABCNEWS
http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/dailynews/2020_whitevan_020621.html
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Post by: LAK on September 19, 2006, 03:38:39 AM
The same people that uncovered the true conspirators behind the bombing of the King David Hotel in Cairo would be "holocaust deniers". Likewise anyone who drew attention to information pointing to what was eventually uncovered to be known as the Lavon Affair, would be a "holcaust denier".
"Holocaust denier" is thrown around these days like spittle at anyone who isn't prostrate at the feet of the swill passing as "truth" coming out of Washington these days. It is a silly attempt at distraction - intimidation - and offensive to people who have relatives who did die during that time, and family like my father and grandparents, who were forced to leave Germany in the late 1930s when the climate became too dangerous for them.
Why don't you peddle your intimidation and nonsense elsewhere. If you want to debate and discuss facts; that is the purpose here right?
Governments have killed people - often their own people - and others often in history. Let's not fall into some fantasy that there is some arbitrary ceiling on numbers when it comes to murder by State. Nor that somehow everyone born on U.S. soil or arrives here to climb the government ladder aquires some magic gene that somehow makes them a higher species than any of histories most notorius and brutal mass muderers.
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Post by: Perd Hapley on September 19, 2006, 04:36:20 AM
Post by: The Rabbi on September 19, 2006, 04:51:31 AM
As for Palestinians jumping up and down celebrating, this was videotaped and photgraphed. The Israelis were doing something "that was interpreted" as rejoicing. Interpreted by whom? Doesnt say. What were they rejoicing over? Doesnt say. What was their connection at all? Doesnt say.
All we know is that their families were complaining they were being held without explanation or charge. That is all the article says.
Invoking Tuskegee is worthless. The fact that one time somewhere maybe there was subterfuge does not mean every act by the gov't is subterfuge. And in any case, the truth about Tuskegee came out because, tada, people do talk.
Post by: roo_ster on September 19, 2006, 05:42:20 AM
I can still access video and images of Palestinians jumping & cheering the WTC collapse. Why should I not be able to do the same for the Jewish version?
Also, the reason we knew they were Palestinians cheering was the location of those taking the video and, in some cases, those doing the cheering letting slip (AKA, "shouting") their identity. Just how would one tell a jumping Jew from a jumping Gentile, anyways, in NYC?
So, who is suppressing the video evidence of jumping & cheering Jews? What are their resources?
Linking to a few print articles that only vaguely support your assertions (if viewed sideways and effort is made to read in meaning) does not evidence make.
I provide analysis for my company and our customers and am required to back up my analysis. When I do so, I provide input data, algorithms, (to include verification & validation of the data & algoritms), limitations, assumptions, and methodologies by which I came to my conclusions.
So, when I see the fevered writings of the tinfoil beret brigade and they can only produce what you have produced, I am less than impressed with the power of the argument.
Post by: Warbow on September 19, 2006, 06:38:08 AM
Quote from: fistful
Good to see we're all keeping up the Bush-supporting group-think. Remember that the President is in New York, today, so you can properly orient your genuflection during today's prayers.
Where is the groupthink? Can you point it out?
Post by: Marnoot on September 19, 2006, 06:56:01 AM
Quote from: Warbow
Where is the groupthink? Can you point it out?
He's kidding; we had a troll on here the last week that was rabidly accusing everyone of "groupthink."
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 19, 2006, 07:19:33 AM
Post by: Marnoot on September 19, 2006, 07:48:46 AM
Quote from: fistful
I wasn't kidding, Marnoot. It's pathetic the way we never entertain disagreement around here.
My apologies, I mistook it for troll mimicking/mocking, but apparently you've got that out of your system. I'm all for entertaining disagreement. My support for Bush extends as far as he's better than Kerry would be, which isn't too far. But in the interest of disagreement I'll have to echo Warbow, where is the Bush-supporting groupthink in this thread? On topic, I believe Bush incapable of masterminding or maintaining any large conspiracies. I believe the government as a whole too incompetent and inefficient to succesfully maintain any large conspiracies.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 19, 2006, 07:52:08 AM
Post by: Marnoot on September 19, 2006, 08:08:10 AM
Quote from: fistful
I agree, Marnoot, but I favor Bush a little more than you do. I was kidding about not kidding about the groupthink. Is that clear? Yeah, the original groupthink comment was a joke.
My support for Bush waxes and wanes. It's waned at the moment, on a few topics at least. I do support him strongly on several others, so don't be surprised if I rip him in one thread and defend him in another. Yeah I thought that might be the case about groupthink, but I'm feeling extra "thick" at the moment. 
I blame the corporate indoctrin.... I mean training I had to sit through this morning.
Post by: The Rabbi on September 19, 2006, 08:40:53 AM
Anyway, there are no films of Israelis jumping up and down celebrating because there were never any films of that. Some neighbor thought she saw them doing that and called FBI. What they were actually doing is anyone's guess. Excited their camera worked? I dunno.
There are no films of Muslim workers at Krispy Kreme or 7-11 or whatever it was supposed to be either jumping up and down celebrating because, equally, it never happened.
Post by: 280plus on September 19, 2006, 11:37:25 AM
Post by: Warbow on September 19, 2006, 01:58:22 PM
Quote from: Marnoot
Quote from: Warbow
Where is the groupthink? Can you point it out?
He's kidding; we had a troll on here the last week that was rabidly accusing everyone of "groupthink."Post by: The Rabbi on September 19, 2006, 04:04:10 PM
Quote from: Warbow
Quote from: Marnoot
Quote from: Warbow
Where is the groupthink? Can you point it out?
He's kidding; we had a troll on here the last week that was rabidly accusing everyone of "groupthink."Post by: LAK on September 20, 2006, 01:47:45 AM
Quote from: The Rabbi
As for Palestinians jumping up and down celebrating, this was videotaped and photgraphed.
Yes - it was. But it was produced where and by whom. Funny, matters of faith just sprung up in another thread. All those "rejoicing palestinians" could have been a paid group of choreographed actors, or even footage of some palestinian arabs celebrating five years earlier about something else.Anyone remember Chalabi's paid thugs parading along some streets in Baghdad? To give the impression that the streets of Baghdad were filled with throngs of joyful Iraqis freed from misery? Or the selective camera work covering the crowd when Hussein's statue was pulled down in Baghdad square? How co-operative of the "we-hate-bush-liberal-left-oppose-the-war" media.
Anytime CNN & Co generate a presention of some supposedly significant event in trouble spots around the world, conspicuously absent are televised interviews with independent journalists who might in turn interview people at randon on the spot. It would not matter if it was in arabic or cyrillic - an truly independent translation of the conversation could verify any subtitled material.
And so back to the Israelis.
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The Israelis were doing something "that was interpreted" as rejoicing. Interpreted by whom? Doesnt say. What were they rejoicing over? Doesnt say. What was their connection at all? Doesnt say.
Right. So you would think that after a reasonable period of time, and news attention, some conclusive information could have been aired. Instead, we are left with a trail of dissappearing news articles.Quote
Invoking Tuskegee is worthless.
No more worthless than someone invoking "holocaust deniers" - and someone else expressing mutual appreciation. But having addressed that issue, there it will lie. The fact is, the Tuskegee affair ran right into the year 1972 - and it was exposed. Eventually. For every serial or significant spree murderer that get's caught, how many do not?Quote
The fact that one time somewhere maybe there was subterfuge does not mean every act by the gov't is subterfuge.
Yes, I think everyone is aware of that.Quote
And in any case, the truth about Tuskegee came out because, tada, people do talk.
Right. Again. And during the time that the first people began to talk, to the point of official acknowledgement, I wonder what silly invectives were thrown at those who were talking.This thread, had the means been present at the time, could have been run in 1967 almost verbatem; 9/11 replaced with Tuskegee.
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Post by: LAK on September 20, 2006, 02:29:24 AM
Quote from: jfruser
I can still access video and images of Palestinians jumping & cheering the WTC collapse. Why should I not be able to do the same for the Jewish version?
Because the "jumping palestinians" were the subject of some syndicated news item; you know, the "we-hate-bush-liberal-left-oppose-the-war" syndicated media. The same ones whose footage and co-operation was essential early on in making during the invasion of Iraq, and giving the appearence of thronging joy among the population of Baghad at their "liberation".The Israelis (haven't seen any reports that they were Jews) were the ones doing the filming of the burning towers and wreckage. No one, that I know of, filmed them. But a number of people were concerned enough about their uh .. "puzzling behavior" to call the police.
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Also, the reason we knew they were Palestinians cheering was the location of those taking the video and, in some cases, those doing the cheering letting slip (AKA, "shouting") their identity.
Yes, I have no doubt that footage would deliver all the goods on cue.Quote
Just how would one tell a jumping Jew from a jumping Gentile, anyways, in NYC?
The reason their nationality is known is because they were arrested - or detained - whichever you care to call it. Some for a considerable length of time. It is clear you did not take the trouble to read the posted stories - even what is still available on the web.Quote
So, who is suppressing the video evidence of jumping & cheering Jews? What are their resources?
Linking to a few print articles that only vaguely support your assertions (if viewed sideways and effort is made to read in meaning) does not evidence make.
They were detained (or arrested) and held for a considerable period, some deported, some left the country rapidly of their own accord. That much has been publicized. This was widely reported in the days after 9/11. Some independents have posted more information since - but nothing from any of your syndicated talking heads and writers. That means that there is, a paper trail. There are the police reports, and Kerry Gill in New Jersey no doubt could be interviewed by CNN and asked to produce the INS records and information Linking to a few print articles that only vaguely support your assertions (if viewed sideways and effort is made to read in meaning) does not evidence make.
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I provide analysis for my company and our customers and am required to back up my analysis. When I do so, I provide input data, algorithms, (to include verification & validation of the data & algoritms), limitations, assumptions, and methodologies by which I came to my conclusions.
So, when I see the fevered writings of the tinfoil beret brigade and they can only produce what you have produced, I am less than impressed with the power of the argument.
Anyone who automatically, impulsively, associates Israeli citizens with Jews has not analysed much in middle east history and geography. So, when I see the fevered writings of the tinfoil beret brigade and they can only produce what you have produced, I am less than impressed with the power of the argument.
And you need a big - thick - tin foil hat to miss (or perhaps turn a blind intellectual eye to) the patterns in our foreign and domestic actions and policies, news reporting, the geo-political world and the events of the last several decades.
They are like Hollywood re-runs and re-makes. In cycles of five to ten years. And like the movies, they are similarly becoming very predictable. But in addition to analytical skills, one must have an attention span longer than one season of any pop tv series - and no aberrations or distractions such as amnesia.
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Post by: The Rabbi on September 20, 2006, 02:40:25 AM
Post by: LAK on September 20, 2006, 02:50:40 AM
Do you recall the staged parading crowds in Baghdad? The "V" signs, the cheering? Baghdad square, the selective filming that gave the impression that Baghdad square was full of Iraqis overjoyed at their liberation? Specifically arranged by (surprize surprize) that crook, handpicked for us by the British - Mr. Chalabi?
Or not?
There is a history, a pattern, of deliberate media falsification evident throughout the Serbian campaign and the current one in Iraq. It has been and is evident elsewhere as well; but let's follow these two through to some kind of concusion for the sake of objectivity.
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Post by: doczinn on September 20, 2006, 04:10:42 AM
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giving the appearence of thronging joy among the population of Baghad at their "liberation".
I never made it Baghdad, but everywhere I did go in Iraq I was surrounded by Iraqis, who praised us and Bush at every chance they got. What I heard most were things like "Saddam donkey." Yes Bush, No Saddam!" And always a thumbs-up sign and a huge smile.
Post by: The Rabbi on September 20, 2006, 05:21:54 AM
Quote from: LAK
Very simplistic three liner - which doesn't begin to address what I have stated.
Do you recall the staged parading crowds in Baghdad? The "V" signs, the cheering? Baghdad square, the selective filming that gave the impression that Baghdad square was full of Iraqis overjoyed at their liberation? Specifically arranged by (surprize surprize) that crook, handpicked for us by the British - Mr. Chalabi?
Or not?
There is a history, a pattern, of deliberate media falsification evident throughout the Serbian campaign and the current one in Iraq. It has been and is evident elsewhere as well; but let's follow these two through to some kind of concusion for the sake of objectivity.
Do you recall the staged parading crowds in Baghdad? The "V" signs, the cheering? Baghdad square, the selective filming that gave the impression that Baghdad square was full of Iraqis overjoyed at their liberation? Specifically arranged by (surprize surprize) that crook, handpicked for us by the British - Mr. Chalabi?
Or not?
There is a history, a pattern, of deliberate media falsification evident throughout the Serbian campaign and the current one in Iraq. It has been and is evident elsewhere as well; but let's follow these two through to some kind of concusion for the sake of objectivity.
Quote from: The Rabbi
OK, so your contention is that when an event like Palestinians jumping up and down is widely photgraphed and distributed, it is a set up by the major news media. But when an event has no evidence other than hearsay then it is reliable. WTF?
You havent addressed this apparant contradiction. I wont argue that some photographers have staged events. But all of them were found out. All of the photos had evidence of the tampering. In every case it was one photographer and one photo or series. In the case of the Palestinians it was many photographers, virtually all the news media covering it, including video footage plus eye witness accounts. And if you want to say the event was staged. Who would stage the event? And it was not one isolated incident, but happened many different places.OTOH, the mythical celebrating Israelis were never captured on film. There were no eyewitness reports of the event, only anonymous statements afterwards.
But the Israeli reports are credible and the Palestinian reports are not credible. WTF?
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 20, 2006, 06:27:22 AM
Post by: The Rabbi on September 20, 2006, 07:58:20 AM
Quote from: fistful
Rabbi, this is an unusual amount of patience for you. Feelin' mellow?
It is too easy. It is like target shooting with a panoramic site. I am sure I will get bored of this soon as there is no challenge.
Post by: LAK on September 22, 2006, 03:28:05 AM
I do not doubt you were. Do you know what exactly was on their minds - each and every one of them?
I further do not doubt that some Iraqis have been glad to see our presence there. However I am addressing two aspects to what was an organized and extensive operation by our gov and syndicated media using people like Chalabi to give an impression that things were alot different from what they actually were when Baghdad was "liberated".
So let me ask again, not just the Rabbi, but anyone following this; do you not remember the staged CNN presentations of the shouting cheering "crowds" parading through the streets of Baghdad, showing "V" signs etc that were eventually exposed as rather small groups organized by Mr Chalabi and the media for our gov propaganda?
Of Chalabi's little merry band in Baghdad square when Hussein's statue was pulled down filmed to the total exclusion of just how little the group was, and that Baghdad square was all but empty? Save the tanks and troops ringing the place?
Yet CNN & Co perpetuated the lie - in carefully edited and focussed audio-visual - that half of Bagdad was celebrating enmasse in the streets, and in Baghdad square when the statue was pulled down.
I do, very clearly.
But for those with amnesia, or just too young to remember - and those who prefer to play dumb - some people have archived some of the relevant material:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm
The Rabbi,
I do not say the celebrating Palestinians is patently false - but I have doubts based on what has been blatantly obvious about syndicated media and the current ongoing geo-political agenda.
The Urban Moving Systems story is not hearsay. It was mainstream news for awhile, and as is the common denominator in truly politically embarrassing or contrary stories, most of the material held by mainstream sources is no longer accessible. This is very common. But I'll bet every syndicated rag on the web will have a big story, editorial or column on the "celebrating Paletsinians" easily accessible.
I'll give another example. In the weeks following 9/11, I viewed American and United Airlines corporate websites where they had both published the official AA and UA flight manifests for the hijacked planes. Pilots, co-pilots - the entire flight crews - and all the passengers were named. Named; from the manifests. On none of those pages did a single name of the alleged hijackers appear. Not one.
Does that mean they were not on the planes? Perhaps. Perhaps they were. But the point is - it is more than a "minor discrepency" and can not be a simple "error". Most people do know, that one can not embark on a commercial sheduled flight in the United States without buying tickets, and being issued a boarding pass - which lead to becoming listed on the flight passenger manifest.
So when questions arose like, ".. how exactly does one board a commercial flight in the United States without being on the passenger manifest?" these pages disappeared. AA and UA took these pages down rather quickly.
So while it is popular, and encouraged, to address people like kooks who are not prostrate in support of the official fairytale, there exists some common elements among the fairytale believers. Where through a combination of amnesia, general convenience, and perhaps an element of fear, what is known (or what they used to know) about the official storytellers - their recent modern history - is detached or set aside.
They seem to have been so shock and awed (remember that phrase?) by the presentation of the events that somehow what they did know - they used to know - in the past no longer applies. All the instances of State sponsored and instigated terrorism - actual or planned, foreign and domestic - and media co-operation, cease to exist.
Somewhat like women who cling onto men that are unfaithful to them - and beat them up. They keep going back when the right cues are given, and despite the increasing magnitude of the beatings, are always just as obstinate in their defense of their oppressor.
Here's another from the Memory Hole - an orchestrated and fake propaganda performance to gather support for the invasion of Kuwait:
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"I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns. They took the babies out of the incubators, took the incubators and left the children to die on the cold floor. It was horrifying." -- Nayirah, Kuwaiti Citizen, testifying before Congressional Human Rights Caucus, Oct. 10, 1990.
http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/gallagher83.htmlA video of weeping Nayirah performing before members of our Congress was on the web and is probably still there for those who missed it years ago. Performing Nayirah - right in front of Congress. A complete fraud. No repercussions, G H W Bush used the lie for his speeches, and he never retracted it.
Celebrating Palestinians? Maybe; and that's final.
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Post by: Perd Hapley on September 22, 2006, 04:39:17 AM
Quote from: LAK
The Urban Moving Systems story is not hearsay. It was mainstream news for awhile, and as is the common denominator in truly politically embarrassing or contrary stories, most of the material held by mainstream sources is no longer accessible. This is very common. But I'll bet every syndicated rag on the web will have a big story, editorial or column on the "celebrating Paletsinians" easily accessible.
I'll give another example. In the weeks following 9/11, I viewed American and United Airlines corporate websites where they had both published the official AA and UA flight manifests for the hijacked planes. Pilots, co-pilots - the entire flight crews - and all the passengers were named. Named; from the manifests. On none of those pages did a single name of the alleged hijackers appear. Not one.
For the first example, is it possible the stories were removed because they were later discredited and therefore embarassing?I'll give another example. In the weeks following 9/11, I viewed American and United Airlines corporate websites where they had both published the official AA and UA flight manifests for the hijacked planes. Pilots, co-pilots - the entire flight crews - and all the passengers were named. Named; from the manifests. On none of those pages did a single name of the alleged hijackers appear. Not one.
Did the hijackers use their own names?
Post by: The Rabbi on September 22, 2006, 05:01:14 AM
Post by: doczinn on September 22, 2006, 07:24:21 AM
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Do you know what exactly was on their minds - each and every one of them?
I'm no more telepathic than you are, but I'd bet it went something like this:Quote
Hey, you Americans have finally taken that ahole Saddam out of power. Cool.
Now, this was early on and we haven't handled everything well since. I haven't been back so I can't speculate as to average Iraqis' opinion now.
Post by: LAK on September 22, 2006, 08:56:02 PM
Did the hijackers use their own names? I don't know - if they did, they did not appear on the manifests. If not, why not? If they used other names - which names specifically did they use? There has never been an official explanation for this.
Rabbi,
Nayirah's performance was very big news and well written about. It was a key story and publicity tool used to convince both the American public, and Congress, that it was necessary to go into Kuwait. G H W Bush referred to her story directly several times publicly, as did Quayle. It was widely published, and still is a widely accessible item on the web even from mainstream sources.
All commercially syndicated news, for most people, can be considered hearsay by it's nature of collection, production, distribution and dissemination.
But perhaps we should heed the Rabbi now, and remember that we should take anything published by Ha'aretz with a pinch of salt.
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Post by: Guest on September 23, 2006, 05:51:46 AM
Quote from: Art Eatman
... And always remember: Dr. Goebbels was absolutely correct with his statement, "If you tell a big enough lie, often enough, people will begin to believe it."
Art
LOL! This demonstrates LAK's point. Art
The official explanation is a "conspiracy theory". Otherwise, four planes being hijacked at the same time would have to be coincidental.
Post by: Art Eatman on September 23, 2006, 06:47:27 AM
Secret conspiracies cannot survive as secret without an incredible level of smarts and attention to detail--and an absence of human flaws. Booze talk, pillow talk, bragging talk, and just plain sell-out for money. It was hard enough in the pre-electronic eras. Nowadays, not only a paper trail but a computerized trail. Too many people know too much about who comes and goes, where--and with whom they talk.
"Two people can keep a secret--if one of them is dead."
Art