Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: MillCreek on February 02, 2014, 01:51:19 PM
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http://www.thenewstribune.com/2014/02/01/3023361/one-dead-after-officer-involved.html
I have made a study of Washington state self-defense law over the years and used that to guide my potential decisions if I was ever faced with a self-defense situation. As far as feasible, I would strive to make certain my response was legally and morally correct. I had never thought of being pepper sprayed as creating the sort of facing imminent death or great personal injury situation that would justify the use of deadly force in return, unless the perpetrator was doing that as a first step to seize my weapon and use it against me, or was spraying me in preparation for smashing my head open with an iron pipe or the like.
Noting that in this situation, two deputies were present, I am going to be very interested to hear what the facts of the case are and the holding of the Sheriff's Office and the Prosecutor as to if this was a justified use of deadly force. Was this a situation in which a Taser, baton, or other less-lethal response was not available or was inappropriate to use? A knife was found outside the truck, and was the knife being held by the person who was shot?
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If someone is pepper spraying me, they are attacking me. Whether they are intending to rob me, take my gun, or worse, I have no idea. I will shoot them before they can do whatever they can do.
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Who knows? These days I believe nothing the cops, the media, or the friends of the deceased say.
EVERYBODY LIES!
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If someone is pepper spraying me, they are attacking me. Whether they are intending to rob me, take my gun, or worse, I have no idea. I will shoot them before they can do whatever they can do.
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Why? I agree with Boom on this one. An attack is an attack. I have a wife and children to worry about.
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An attack with a less-lethal device is an attack nontheless. How would YOU react to being sprayed? Zapped with a stun gun? Somebody trying to hurt yiu with their hands/feet?
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Why? I agree with Boom on this one. An attack is an attack. I have a wife and children to worry about.
Indeed. Any attack that is likely to incapacitate or render unconscious should be treated as a potentially lethal threat.
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Indeed. Any attack that is likely to incapacitate or render unconscious should be treated as a potentially lethal threat.
By ourselves yes. Deputy by themselves, yes. In this case there was another deputy, no immediate lethal weapon present to the deceased an the deputies were almost certainly trained in continuum of force that would put pepper spray far below lethal action. If there was a less lethal option available that will hopefully be considered in the investigation. If I was a deputy by myself I'd consider the fact that there were 3 of them(2 currently not belligerent), one of me, and the next thing that was going to happen would be getting my gun grabbed. In that case, shoot first, shoot often.
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An attack with a less-lethal device is an attack nontheless. How would YOU react to being sprayed? Zapped with a stun gun? Somebody trying to hurt yiu with their hands/feet?
I would just draw and shoot. It's not as if every situation is different, and it would depend on the circumstances. I'll just judge things before I know the facts.
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Not enough information, but people in red trucks are not to be trusted :P
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Not enough information, but people in red trucks are not to be trusted :P
And don't you forget it!
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By ourselves yes. Deputy by themselves, yes. In this case there was another deputy, no immediate lethal weapon present to the deceased an the deputies were almost certainly trained in continuum of force that would put pepper spray far below lethal action. If there was a less lethal option available that will hopefully be considered in the investigation. If I was a deputy by myself I'd consider the fact that there were 3 of them(2 currently not belligerent), one of me, and the next thing that was going to happen would be getting my gun grabbed. In that case, shoot first, shoot often.
It really depends on how the fight is going...
I'd be interested in more information...especially video if available.
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It really depends on how the fight is going...
Concur.
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LEOs do not seem to use Tasers, OC, and other "less lethal" doo-dads to defend themselves. The use them as electronic or chemical whips to gain compliance. LEOs seem to go to the gun if they need to actually defend themselves.
Need a bit more data on this altercation. It is not analogous to a lone citizen or man taking his family out & about.
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Wow, I'm going to defend cops here.
In retrospect, we know it was pepperspray.
In the heat of the moment, no one knows what it is. Could be a biological agent. Could be corrosive acid.
Spray *expletive deleted*it in the face of one of my friends while we're both out peacefully leaving everyone else alone, and see what happens. He probably won't draw since he'd be in pain from whatever you just did to him, but I sure as hell am going to put a STOP to it.
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Article says he sprayed "them" with pepper spray. Also a knife was found outside the truck. I'd say the officers did the right thing based on the article.
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LEOs do not seem to use Tasers, OC, and other "less lethal" doo-dads to defend themselves. The use them as electronic or chemical whips to gain compliance. LEOs seem to go to the gun if they need to actually defend themselves.
Need a bit more data on this altercation. It is not analogous to a lone citizen or man taking his family out & about.
Not the OP focus but I have issues with less lethals and cops. At one time I was supposedly trained for OC and baton but they weren't routinely issued. So my continuum was hurting feelings to threat of M9 to M9.
Baton I have really the least issues with, just be prepared to explain your need for lethal force if you go for the head and neck.
Pepper spray has become universally accepted as a pain compliance tool as in "Respect mah authortah!" or get hosed. So much for deterring an attacker without killing them.
The most issues I reserve for the Taser. It is supposed to be an option just below shooting someone and seems indicated when someone has a contact weapon or are advancing empty-handed. Now, it's the same pain compliance tool as OC and that is BS. I'll not address the cardiac stress issues as they are scientifically inconclusive, but people have died. My problem is the target loses muscle control. When the cops test the taser they have gym mats and people to catch them. Back in reality altercations occur in seedier venues. Someone falls and hits their head on a curb I'd think the officer would be responsible. Taser needs to be reserved for a limited scope of encounters where in the past a suspect would have been shot.
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Never bring pepper spray to a gun fight.
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I got sprayed full across the face courtesy of the Connecticut Air National Guard. I had to strike a bag with a practice baton for 60 seconds, then handcuff a suspect. By the end of that minute, I was almost completely blind. In real life my options would have been to run or shoot, and if I did shoot, I would be completely justified. OC spray is no joke.
The problem with lethal force here is that in my case, my ability to fight back deteriorated over the course of that minute. I stood a much better chance of achieving subject compliance during the first 15-30 seconds. After that, I would be a whole lot more inclined to shoot, but now I can barely see what I'm doing, so good luck to bystanders or my partner once I start firing!
The trick is to shoot before you can't anymore, and that's a huge gray area.
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Indeed. Any attack that is likely to incapacitate or render unconscious should be treated as a potentially lethal threat.
bin-*expletive deleted*ing-go. Nail on the head. Once you are incapacitated, they can do what they will to you including causing serious bodily harm or death. And for me, many times I have my kids with me. No. Nope. No. Try and take me out of the fight and now you have access to my kids without me being able to stop it? That's going to end badly if I have anything to say.
Wow, I'm going to defend cops here.
CSAD will be along to argue with you anyways. ;)
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Once all the legal wrangling in this case is complete, if the full appeals process determines that use of pepper spray does justify a lethal response, it might make for interesting court arguments in the future when police deploy mass pepper spray (at a peaceful march, protest, or other gathering) and someone responds with gunfire . . . especially if that person was an innocent passerby caught by over-enthusiastic employment of OC.
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Once all the legal wrangling in this case is complete, if the full appeals process determines that use of pepper spray does justify a lethal response, it might make for interesting court arguments in the future when police deploy mass pepper spray (at a peaceful march, protest, or other gathering) and someone responds with gunfire . . . especially if that person was an innocent passerby caught by over-enthusiastic employment of OC.
The full appeals process will determine that use of pepper spray against a police officer does justify a lethal response.
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Once all the legal wrangling in this case is complete, if the full appeals process determines that use of pepper spray does justify a lethal response, it might make for interesting court arguments in the future when police deploy mass pepper spray (at a peaceful march, protest, or other gathering) and someone responds with gunfire . . . especially if that person was an innocent passerby caught by over-enthusiastic employment of OC.
I'm not familiar with any mass-deployable pepper spray devices. Do they make OC/mace grenades? They use tear gas for mob control, but I've never heard of any other kind. I've seen the paintballs that are OC filled.
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Yeah, I doubt that. Directly assaulting someone to gain compliance without justification is one thing. Being caught downwind from a protest, or being in a protest and having police with the weight of the law behind them justifiably assaulting you? At least here in Texas, escalation of force is not justifiable if justifiable force is being applied against you (IE, assault someone, they pull a knife, you pull a gun).
AZ, yes. Tear gas grenades both hand thrown and launched.
This is why the po-po gets all the used 40 mike mike launchers.
There are also the very large canisters which they use against crowds, like a giant tear gas fire extinguisher.
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I'm not familiar with any mass-deployable pepper spray devices. Do they make OC/mace grenades? They use tear gas for mob control, but I've never heard of any other kind. I've seen the paintballs that are OC filled.
Big back pack canisters with WWII flame thrower style dispensers
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This is why the po-po gets all the used 40 mike mike launchers.
I thought that sort of thing was launched from 37mm launchers, specifically so that there couldn't be a mixup with military 40mm gear?
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I thought that sort of thing was launched from 37mm launchers, specifically so that there couldn't be a mixup with military 40mm gear?
Generally 37mm is what I see being used. In fact I believe most of the such munitions are made in 37mm
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I thought that sort of thing was launched from 37mm launchers, specifically so that there couldn't be a mixup with military 40mm gear?
37mm is only for us proles.
Police are prufeshinal enough to mix up munitions and it's just an liability-free accident when they do it, so no need to give them a different caliber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_40_mm_grenades
ETA: Boomhauer is right, I take it back. 37mm is an option for less lethal gas projectiles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/37_mm_flare
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Another agreement with Boom.
A driver in a simple traffic stop becomes physically aggressive, then intentionally sprays the officer(s) with an incapacitant. Given this it must be presumed that the perp's agitated mental state and aggressive behavior are indicative of malicious and violent intent, and now the perp has direct access to the incapacitated officer's weapon. It is both reasonable and logical to presume, if the reported circumstanced are generally accurate, that this situation presents an immediate threat of serious injury or death to both officers. As such, the second officer seems to have reacted accordingly.
More details and third party confirmation would be nice, but given the perp's recent legal history I see this as going away pretty quickly.
Brad
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Dude already had access to a weapon and had no need of the officer's weapon. That would be his car.
Plugging dude may be justified by several reasons, but access to the officer's weapon does not seem one of them in this case.
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More details and third party confirmation would be nice, but given the perp's recent legal history I see this as going away pretty quickly.
The outcome of an investigation into a police shooting has little or no relevance to the justification of that shooting.
In this case it probably was justified.